Talk:Abdi İpekçi Street

Street or Avenue

• "Abdi Ipekci Street" -Llc 4 - 1 = 3
• "Abdi Ipekci Avenue" -Llc 1

Takabeg (talk) 10:13, 20 September 2011 (UTC)

But:

• "Abdi Ipekci Avenue": [1] (publisher Şişli Beledyesi)
• "Abdi İpekçi Avenue": [2] (publisher Hürriyet Daily News)

Clearly, the Google test is not convincing here. I think it is better to translate Cadde uniformly as Avenue for a variety of reasons. One of the meanings of "avenue" is "thoroughfare", which corresponds to how cadde is used in Turkey. There are streets whose names are only differentiated by Sokak versus Cadde (e.g., Abdi İpekçi Sokak as a side street of Bağdat Caddesi in Fenerbahçe, and another one in İçerenköy). Conversely, there is an Abdi İpekçi Caddesi in Bayrampaşa, which is a broad street, and would naturally be called "Abdi İpekçi Avenue". It is bad if the same street name has different translations depending on where it is located, and even worse if it depends on the width of the street, which will turn naming into an exercise of original research.  --Lambiam 21:21, 20 September 2011 (UTC)

I recommend you use Wikipedia:Requested moves. Takabeg (talk) 23:53, 20 September 2011 (UTC)

Requested move

The following discussion is an archived discussion of the proposal. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

No consensus to move. Vegaswikian (talk) 21:23, 13 October 2011 (UTC)

Abdi İpekçi Street → Abdi İpekçi Avenue – Relisted Alpha_Quadrant ^(talk) 15:27, 4 October 2011 (UTC) The Turkish name of this Istanbul street is Abdi İpekçi Caddesi. It is notable, if only because it is known as the most expensive street of Turkey (although surpassed in the 2011 Cushman & Wakefield Main Streets Across The World report by Bağdat Avenue, also in Istanbul). The question is: should Cadde(si) in the street name be translated here as Avenue or as Street?  --Lambiam 07:22, 25 September 2011 (UTC)

Actual situation

(original-research alert) In an objection to the translation Abdi İpekçi Avenue, the argument has been made that "We cannot translate cadde in general as avenue. Avenue means a broad street, especially one bordered by trees.^[A] Abdi İpekçi Caddesi is a narrow oneway street". However, the street is actually fairly broad, certainly compared to most Istanbul streets (almost 19 metres (62 ft) between the house fronts on both sides, which includes both sidewalks and the roadway for motorized traffic), and lined on both sides with trees. Only part is one-way: the stretch between Mim Kemal Öke Caddesi/Bronz Sokak and Kadırgalar Caddesi/Bostan Sokak. There the roadway has been narrowed in 2010 to one lane by widening the sidewalks, in a celebrated renovation project to make this upscale street even more upscale.^[1][2] The stretches from Maçka Caddesi to Mim Kemal Öke Caddesi/Bronz Sokak and from Kadırgalar Caddesi/Bostan Sokak to Vali Konağı Caddesi are still two-way.

What do reliable sources say?

• On Google book search Abdi İpekçi Street wins from Abdi İpekçi Avenue by 3 to 1, hardly a decisive victory.
• The municipality of Şişli, in which the street is located, uses "Abdi Ipekci Avenue"^[2]
• The English-language newspaper Hürriyet Daily News also uses "Abdi İpekçi Avenue".^[1]

Uniformity of translation

There are arguments to translate Caddesi uniformly by Avenue, and Sokak/Sokağı uniformly by Street:

• Several dictionaries do not even list street as a possible translation of Turkish cadde, but only avenue, thoroughfare.^[3] Others do, but I've found none that give street as an earlier alternative than avenue. Conversely, some do not give cadde as a translation for street,^[4] and if they do, it is listed after sokak.
• For the other streets named X Caddesi in Turkish on which we have an article in Wikipedia, the English title is X Avenue: Bağdat Avenue, İstiklal Avenue, Kennedy Avenue.
• There are streets whose names are only differentiated by sokak versus cadde (e.g., a side street of Bağdat Avenue in the Fenerbahçe neighbourhood is named Abdi İpekçi Sokak.
• Maureen Freely, the English translator of Orhan Pamuk's recent novels, who works closely with Pamuk on these translations, translates Çukurcuma Caddesi in The Museum of Innocence by Çukurcuma Avenue,^[5] and this street is actually rather narrow compared to Abdi İpekçi Caddesi.

Don't require original research

If the translation depends on the actual situation, editors need to go out with measuring tapes. And what is the criterion? Less than 20 m Street, 20 m and more Avenue? Surely, we don't want to rename Ovidio Lagos Avenue → Ovidio Lagos Street using the argument that the Avenida Ovidio Lagos is one-way and for the most part not quite 20 m wide.

References

1. ^{a b} "Abdi İpekçi Avenue to be new Champs Elysee". Hürriyet Daily News. 3 September 2010.

2. ^{a b} "The Opening of the Renewed Abdi Ipekci Avenue" (Press release). Press Office, Şişli Municipality. 26 November 2010.

3. ^{^} E.g. Redhouse Elsözlüğü — İngilizce – Türkçe, Türkçe – İngilizçe. Redhouse. 1997. ISBN 975-8176-02-1. {{cite book}}: Unknown parameter |trans_title= ignored (|trans-title= suggested) (help)

4. ^{^} E.g. İskender Fahrettin (1954). English–Turkish Dictionary. Frederick Ungar.

5. ^{^} Orhan Pamuk (2009). "Chapter 55    Come Again Tomorrow, and We Can Sit Together Again". [[The Museum of Innocence]]. {{cite book}}: URL–wikilink conflict (help)

 --Lambiam 07:22, 25 September 2011 (UTC)

Turkish words cadde, sokak, yol can be translated to street.

Abdi İpekçi Street is used in many sources:

• Istanbul’s shopping fest ends, next year on the table, in Hürriyet Daily News, April 26, 2011.
• marmara.gov.tr in the official website of Marmara Belediyeler Birliği
• Agos Editor Seropyan: Ergenekon case was Hrant’s dream in Sunday's Zaman, 18 January 2010.
• Park Hyatt Istanbul
• Germir Palas Hotel
• A Hedonist's Guide to Istanbul, p. 176.
• Thomas Goltz, Istanbul, p. 154.
• The Economist

Takabeg (talk) 15:45, 25 September 2011 (UTC)

In the official website of the Istanbul Metropolitan Municipality

• Torun Sokağı -> Torun Street
• Serdarı Ekrem Sokağı -> Serdarı Ekrem Street
• Galip Dede Caddesi -> Galip Dede Street
• Dede Efendi Caddesi-> Dede Efendi Street
• Şehzadepaşa Caddesi -> Şehzadepaşa Street
• Ayvansaray Caddesi -> Ayvansaray Street
• Mürsel Paşa Caddesi -> Mürsel Street
• Hakimiyeti Milliye Caddesi -> Hakimiyeti Milliye Street
• Paşalimanı Caddesi -> Paşalimanı Street
• Vatan Caddesi -> Vatan Street
• İstiklal Caddesi -> İstiklal Street / İstiklal Avenue

Takabeg (talk) 15:57, 25 September 2011 (UTC)

If French also counts (as in avenue Galip Dede, or avenue de Paşalimanı), then we find on the same website next to İstiklal Avenue also 16 Mart Şehitleri Avenue, Ayvansaray Avenue, Büyük Hendek Avenue, Büyükdere Avenue, Dede Efendi Avenue, Defterdar Avenue, Divanyolu Avenue, Doğancılar Avenue, Dolmabahçe Avenue, Fevzi Paşa Avenue, Galip Dede Avenue, Hakimiyet-i Milliye Avenue, Halâskârgazi Avenue, İmrahor Avenue, İtfaliye Avenue, Mecliş-i Mebusan Avenue, Mürsel Paşa Avenue, Necati Bey Avenue, Nüzhetiye Avenue, Ordu Avenue, Paşalimanı Avenue, Şehzadebaşı Avenue, Tersane Avenue, Tophane Avenue, Torun Avenue, Ulubatlı Hasan Avenue, Vatan Avenue, Yeniçeriler Avenue, and Zal Paşa Avenue. I don't know what we can conclude from that, except that their translators have not been uniformly consistent. If there is a system to it, I don't see it.  --Lambiam 18:35, 25 September 2011 (UTC)

Torun Avenue ? 16 Mart Şehitleri Avenue ? Nüzhetiye Avenue ?

In the official website of Çankaya Belediyesi

• Tunalı Hilmi Caddesi -> Tunalı Hilmi Avenue
• Ulucanlar Caddesi -> Ulucanlar Avenue
• İzmir Caddesi -> İzmir Street
• Sakarya Caddesi -> Sakarya Street
• Mediha Eldem Sokağı -> Mediha Eldem Street

Takabeg (talk) 19:28, 25 September 2011 (UTC)

Oppose Abdi İpekçi Avenue is not common name. There is no necessity to change the name of this article. Takabeg (talk) 19:57, 25 September 2011 (UTC)

Support - I'd say any street with more than 2 lanes is not a street but an avenue. TheDarkLordSeth (talk) 00:40, 6 October 2011 (UTC)

If such criteria is valid, we have to change the title Istiklal Avenue to Istiklal Street. Takabeg (talk) 07:36, 13 October 2011 (UTC)

• Opinion:I think this discussion is quite fruitless. In Turkish Abdi İpekçi caddesi (street) seems to be a misnomer, because it refers to the street before the renewal project was finished. So the proposal to move the word street to avenue seems logical. However Abdi İpekçi caddesi is an established noun phrase . In such cases the established word rather than the true definition is used (Example; atom means indivisible, although the reverse is proven, no body tries to change the name).Nedim Ardoğa (talk) 13:17, 13 October 2011 (UTC)

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the proposal. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

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