Talk:AR-15–style rifle

Name of the rifle

It doesn't even stand for armalite rifle, its just ARmalite. The AR17 is a shotgun, the AR24 is a 9mm pistol, the AR23 is a training device for the MK19 Full auto grenade launcher and the AR22 is a blank firing device for the MK19. KingOfRay (talk) 08:12, 24 January 2023 (UTC)

According to the cited sources, it originally stood for "ArmaLite Rifle". Later, the company introduced other types of guns, so it may have been retconned to mean only "Armalite", but we'd need a source that specifically says that. BilCat (talk) 08:53, 24 January 2023 (UTC)

The AR-17 was developed from the earlier AR-9, which predates the AR-15, and was also a shotgun. 2600:1700:68D6:5400:7549:6121:D457:2AA9 (talk) 23:24, 24 January 2024 (UTC)

Correct, meaning the opposite, "ArmaLite" has actually been retconned into "ArmaLite Rifle" given their website. I would argue that's the best way to approach it on the page. It should be clarified that the "AR" designation applied to everything ArmaLite made including shotguns and the AR-24 handgun yet "AR" is still colloquially known as "ArmaLite Rifle", even by the company itself. W0TA5IO (talk) 15:33, 4 February 2024 (UTC)

Acronym/abbreviation

Re this edit: this isn't really true because NYPD is not pronounced as a word. Some acronyms are, but some are not. ♦IanMacM♦ ^{(talk to me)} 07:37, 1 May 2023 (UTC)

NYPD is an initialism. How it is pronounced is the definitional distinction between acronyms and initialisms. 76.88.146.157 (talk) 01:24, 10 June 2023 (UTC)

Requested move 5 May 2023

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

The result of the move request was: moved. (closed by non-admin page mover) BilledMammal (talk) 04:01, 28 May 2023 (UTC)

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• AR-15 style rifle → AR-15–style rifle
• AR-15 style pistol → AR-15–style pistol

– 'AR-15 style' is a compound modifier and therefore would normally be hyphenated between 15 and style per MOS:HYPHEN. However, since AR-15 itself contains a hyphen, I would argue we should treat it like a space and the second hyphen becomes an en dash as specified at MOS:SUFFIXDASH. –CWenger (^ • @) 01:01, 5 May 2023 (UTC) — Relisting. EggRoll97 ^(talk) 23:10, 12 May 2023 (UTC) — Relisting. CLYDE ^{TALK TO ME}/_{STUFF DONE} (please mention me on reply) 22:35, 20 May 2023 (UTC)

Comment Why are these different articles? Isn't the distinction between "rifle" and "pistol" here more a matter of the National Firearms Act than any factual or encyclopedic difference? The same weapon could be considered a rifle or pistol under the NFA depending on whether it is legally deemed to have a butt stock (and not even whether it factually does). Maybe this should be a discussion at the same time about a merger to AR-15–style firearm or something? —DIYeditor (talk) 01:37, 5 May 2023 (UTC)

Not an expert in this area so I can't say for sure, but I was not even aware of AR-15–style pistols and only stumbled upon the article while formulating my move request. Even if they are different, I think they are significantly less popular to the extent that it could be a section of AR-15–style rifle instead. –CWenger (^ • @) 01:43, 5 May 2023 (UTC)

It's generally better not to combine separate types of discussions, as it can be too confusing to sort out the comments. It'd be better to wait until this discussion is completed. BilCat (talk) 01:46, 5 May 2023 (UTC)

The pistols were gaining a lot of popularity in the shooting sports world, until recently when the federal government decided the arm braces were illegal (more to it than that, but you get the idea). Depending on what happens in this discussion, I would be in favor of an "ar-15 style firearms" merge, but simply merging the pistol page into "ar-15 style rifle" would not do it justice IMHO due to the laws, etc. surrounding both... - Adolphus79 (talk) 03:16, 5 May 2023 (UTC)

@DIYeditorI created a discussion for the merger in another section on this talk page. Thanks for pointing this out. aaronneallucas (talk) 05:39, 10 May 2023 (UTC)

I believe that WP:COMMONNAME trumps grammatical correctness, especially in this case where it is unclear what the grammatically correct form is. As far as I can see, the current title is the most common term, so I oppose the move. Sjö (talk) 05:14, 5 May 2023 (UTC)

Actually, if we are going with COMMONNAME, I believe the "15-style" is redundant. Most, if not all, mentions I hear and see are simply "AR style rifle/pistol", no one even bothers with the 15 anymore. - Adolphus79 (talk) 12:36, 5 May 2023 (UTC)

I think it has been established that WP:COMMONNAME does not apply to typography like hyphens and dashes, since Wikipedia should have a consistent style. For an example of this, Google "Mexican American War" and see the punctuation Wikipedia uses versus virtually all the other top hits. In any case, "AR-15-style rifle" seems to be the most common, and this would be an improvement over the current name, although I think "AR-15–style rifle" would be the clearest. I can't speak to how often the "-15" is dropped, but if this indeed common enough, "AR-style rifle" would work too. –CWenger (^ • @) 14:38, 5 May 2023 (UTC)

• Support. I agree with CWenger's argument that WP:COMMONNAME does not apply to purely typographical considerations. (If it did, basically every title that features an en dash per MOS:ENBETWEEN would be in violation of COMMONNAME.) Consequently, there's no reason not to use the MOS-preferred punctuation. ModernDayTrilobite (talk • contribs) 14:49, 12 May 2023 (UTC)

Note: WikiProject Firearms has been notified of this discussion. EggRoll97 ^(talk) 23:10, 12 May 2023 (UTC)

• Support per nom and ModernDayTrilobite. —⁠ ⁠BarrelProof (talk) 03:19, 21 May 2023 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Proposed merger with "AR-15 style pistol"

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section. A summary of the conclusions reached follows.

To not merge, given the abscence of consensus with stale discussion; no counterproposal (including the reverse merge or alternative title for a joint article) attained consensus. Klbrain (talk) 18:54, 15 October 2023 (UTC)

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There is very little information on the AR-15 style pistol webpage and it should be merged to this one. The topics really do not seem even close to distinct enough to warrant two articles. aaronneallucas (talk) 05:34, 10 May 2023 (UTC)

• Support - Considering they are the same weapon with two different "accessory" (hardware) options, I am in full agreement. - Adolphus79 (talk) 13:52, 10 May 2023 (UTC)
• Merge both articles into AR-15 style firearm. There is no meaningful difference except under US law (the National Firearms Act) which has potentially non-intuitive definitions for pistol. Clearly in other classifications in other countries (e.g. machine pistol) a pistol may actually have a butt stock. "AR-15 style rifle" has more google hits than "AR-15 style firearm" or "AR-15 style pistol" but all three are in wide use, and "AR-15 style firearm" is a title that would cover all types of this weapon. —DIYeditor (talk) 13:59, 10 May 2023 (UTC)

  I'm not sure we should look to other countries, since what they call a pistol is often even less intuitive. The NFA definition of a pistol might not be universal, but as a rule, AR pistols conform to that definition precisely so they can evade the NFA's ban on short-barreled rifles. Reliable sources are going to focus on the US and use US-centric terminology because that is where virtually the entire global market for these weapons exists. —Rutebega (talk) 03:30, 11 May 2023 (UTC)

  My main point is that either (or rather all three, pistol, rifle, and short-barreled rifle) can be called a "firearm" interchangeably. We go by WP:COMMONNAME so I think that the obscurity of what is termed a pistol under what circumstances is a little less important, but I'm not sure how a WP:GLOBAL viewpoint might apply in opposition to the local COMMONNAME. —DIYeditor (talk) 11:16, 11 May 2023 (UTC)

• Bring the pistol content here as a subset of this article. While I see the logic of the "style firearm" suggestion I think it the current title is closer to a COMMON NAME. Springee (talk) 16:26, 10 May 2023 (UTC)
• Oppose, there appears to be considerable coverage of AR-15 style pistols (apparently abbreviated "ARP") independent of that of AR-15 style rifles (in particular the cultural impact of these ARPs, for example in music, is distinct). While moving both to AR-15 style firearm would be an ok solution there seems to be more than enough coverage for two articles. Horse Eye's Back (talk) 17:27, 10 May 2023 (UTC)
• Support: the pistol article teeters on the edge of notability and would make more sense as a small section within the rifle article. The AR-15 platform was designed as a rifle, most examples are rifles (or carbines), and an overwhelming majority of coverage in reliable sources pertains to rifles. —Rutebega (talk) 02:02, 11 May 2023 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

PP

Are we going to have to ask for page protection? Slatersteven (talk) 09:44, 14 May 2023 (UTC)

"Gas systems" section

"This Stoner bolt and carrier piston system has the disadvantage of venting un-burned smokeless powder residue into the receiver where it may ultimately accumulate in quantities causing malfunctions."

Isn't the entire point of the Stoner design that it only vents into the back of the bolt carrier, NOT the receiver? If it vented into the receiver it would be just regular direct impingement. 188.146.232.234 (talk) 13:15, 27 March 2024 (UTC)

I suggest both the upper and lower receivers of the AR-15 fit within the customary definition of Receiver (firearms); and the description accurately reflects conditions around the bolt carrier within the upper receiver. Thewellman (talk) 16:54, 27 March 2024 (UTC)

What do RS say? Slatersteven (talk) 17:08, 27 March 2024 (UTC)