Talk:2024 Israeli invasion of Lebanon

Move to Third Lebanon War

https://www.atlanticcouncil.org/blogs/new-atlanticist/the-third-lebanon-war-between-israel-and-hezbollah-has-begun-whats-next/

https://www.jewishpress.com/news/middle-east/lebanon/israel-launches-the-third-lebanon-war/2024/09/30/

https://www.israelhayom.com/2024/09/22/israel-deliberately-raises-stakes-against-hezbollah/

https://anglican.ink/2024/09/26/urgent-letter-from-anglican-bishop-of-cyprus-and-the-gulf-on-the-third-lebanon-war/

https://wavellroom.com/2024/09/04/on-the-brink-of-a-third-lebanon-war-can-israel-overcome-hezbollah-this-time/

Already widely used and technically correct 2604:3D09:1F7F:8B00:38FF:A30A:5A13:E402 (talk) 20:26, 30 September 2024 (UTC) WP:ARBECR Selfstudier (talk) 22:17, 2 October 2024 (UTC)

Agree with third Lebanon war or maybe just 2024 Invasion of Lebanon. HuntersHistory (talk) 22:52, 30 September 2024 (UTC)

Those are all either Israeli or pro-Israeli sources, so hardly neutral. Calling it the Third Lebanon War removes any reference to Israel in the invasion, and suggests that Lebanon's official armed forces are involved, both of which are misleading Little Professor (talk) 20:38, 1 October 2024 (UTC)

Please do not engage with non EC editors that are only permitted to make edit requests, nothing more. Selfstudier (talk) 22:18, 2 October 2024 (UTC)

Article title

If this article is to retain the "invasion of Lebanon" part, it should be preceded by "Israeli" for clarity; as far as I can see, "Israel", "Israeli tanks" and other similar terms are universally used by reliable sources. I don't think this is too controversial, but at the moment 2024 Israeli invasion of Lebanon is a redirect. Nythar (💬-🍀) 20:32, 30 September 2024 (UTC)

Agreed, would make more sense. Someone coming across the page wouldn't actually know the invaders until they look at the text. SK55555 (talk) 20:35, 30 September 2024 (UTC)

Agree. HuntersHistory (talk) 22:52, 30 September 2024 (UTC)

@HuntersHistory@Nythar@SK55555. Our procedures require that if a bold move is reverted then it must be conducted via a formal RM. I have started one below.VR _{(Please ping on reply)} 00:03, 1 October 2024 (UTC)

Background

A background section should be added once the article's initial edits that are fleshing out the breaking/current events that this article focuses on are done. It should probably include references to immediate events (such as 2024 Lebanon pager explosions, 2024 Hezbollah headquarters strike, etc.) and past events (such as 2006 invasion of Lebanon). I know this article is really new, so I do not want to disrupt the current construction occurring. Mason7512 (talk) 21:21, 30 September 2024 (UTC)

Requested move 30 September 2024

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

The result of the move request was: moved. (early close per WP:SNOW) – filelakeshoe (t / c) 🐱 14:20, 1 October 2024 (UTC)

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2024 Israeli ground operation in Lebanon → 2024 Israeli invasion of Lebanon – Most RS are calling it an "invasion". "Ground operation" is what Israeli govt calls it (therefore WP:POVTITLE), just as the Russian govt called the Russian invasion of Ukraine as a "special operation". Rs using "invasion": GlobeAndMail, Reuters, Washington Post, CTV news, Arab News, MSNBC etc. Most sources that call it a "ground operation" do use scarequotes for it and don't always use their own voice. This also resembles an invasion given the amount of soldiers and tanks pouring into Lebanon. VR _{(Please ping on reply)} 23:31, 30 September 2024 (UTC)

More sources using "invasion" in their own voice

"Shortly before the Israeli invasion, the army declared three northern communities near the Lebanese border to be". AP News "This appears to culminate a day of positioning for an Israeli ground invasion of Lebanon." CNN "Israel's widely expected ground invasion of Lebanon appeared to be getting underway early on Tuesday" Reuters "This follows reports of an Israeli ground invasion starting in the South of Lebanon amidst" Al-Ahram

Strong support per nom. Skitash (talk) 23:32, 30 September 2024 (UTC)

Strong support per nom. Bitspectator ⛩️ 23:42, 30 September 2024 (UTC)

Strong support and suggest speedy move This shouldn't even need to be discussed. Why was the article originally created with an euphemism? A ground operation is an invasion. Examples. Israeli invasion of the Gaza Strip 2003 invasion of Iraq, Russian invasion of Ukraine. Viewsridge (talk) 23:45, 30 September 2024 (UTC)

Israel had not officially started an incursion at the time this article was created. Israeli forces briefly entered Lebanon, but the argument that qualifies as an invasion is weak. elijahpepe@wikipedia (he/him) 04:11, 1 October 2024 (UTC)

• Comment: Also important to remember, as The Guardian points out, Israel had characterized its 1982 invasion of Lebanon as a "limited incursion" back then.VR _{(Please ping on reply)} 23:48, 30 September 2024 (UTC)

Strong support 'Ground operation' is a euphemism. No matter the scale of this event, it is still an invasion. Khronicle I (talk) 23:50, 30 September 2024 (UTC)

Strong support agreed, would follow consensus and similar past events (including those also described as "ground operations" or "limited incursions" by Israel and others) Mason7512 (talk) 00:05, 1 October 2024 (UTC)

Strong support per WP:SPADE. WillowCity^(talk) 00:26, 1 October 2024 (UTC)

Strong support and speedy move, SNOW, plus this is blatant POV. Ground operation is hopelessly false-neutral voice, like using the word "officer-involved shooting". Needs moving immediately, we can't wait days for doubt to begin to creep in. </MarkiPoli> <talk /><cont /> 00:33, 1 October 2024 (UTC)

Comment Maybe we should call it a "Special Ground Operation" in Lebanon. selfworm^Talk) 00:40, 1 October 2024 (UTC)

• Comment – The Ministry of Truth suggests moving this article to 2024 Israeli liberation of Lebanon and moving September 2024 Lebanon strikes to The De-escalation Operation. FunLater (talk) 02:03, 1 October 2024 (UTC)

Support, if that's what the sources say, then it makes sense to move it there. LilianaUwU ^{(talk / contributions)} 00:43, 1 October 2024 (UTC)

• Strong support per nom. FunLater (talk) 00:48, 1 October 2024 (UTC)
• Strong Support per above Waleed (talk) 01:27, 1 October 2024 (UTC)
• Strong support per nom rationale. XTheBedrockX (talk) 02:55, 1 October 2024 (UTC)
• Strong support per nom. As it is necessary to maintain a neutral and accurate representation of the event. — Ainty Painty (talk) 03:46, 1 October 2024 (UTC)
• Support HuntersHistory (talk) 03:52, 1 October 2024 (UTC)
• Strong Support: Definitely worthy of calling an invasion now. Article was created when there was confusion over whether Israel was present in Lebanon yet. Fantastic Mr. Fox (talk) 05:09, 1 October 2024 (UTC)
• Oppose, the extent of the operation is still unclear at this point. The CNN are using "ground incursion" and "operation" in their coverage. Galamore (talk) 05:34, 1 October 2024 (UTC)

  in it's current state our article says Israel called for evacuation of Beirut for bombing which suggests an extensive incursion, to put it mildly. Zuzu8691 (talk) 08:57, 1 October 2024 (UTC) Struck per WP:ARBPIA and WP:ARBECR. – 🌻 Hilst (talk | contribs) 14:20, 1 October 2024 (UTC)

  Most reliable sources seem to be referring to it as an invasion regardless - besides, this incursion will likely continue to scale anyway. TappyTurtle [talk | contribs] 11:14, 1 October 2024 (UTC)

• Support a "ground operation" is just the term used by Israel but is far too vague Braganza (talk) 06:33, 1 October 2024 (UTC)
• Support per nom ClaudineChionh (she/her · talk · contribs · email) 06:47, 1 October 2024 (UTC)
• Support, per arguments above. Otherwise, change Wikipedia's policy to adapt all article titles to Kremlin-style euphemisms. Cscescu (talk) 06:59, 1 October 2024 (UTC)
• Strong support per nom. --Hoben7599 (talk) 07:28, 1 October 2024 (UTC)
• Strong support as it is an invasion by definition whether or not one supports or opposes it. EAL819 (talk) — Preceding undated comment added 09:11, 1 October 2024 (UTC) Struck per WP:ARBPIA and WP:ARBECR. – 🌻 Hilst (talk | contribs) 14:20, 1 October 2024 (UTC)
• Strong support and suggest speedy move consistency with airstrikes page which speaks of invasion of Lebanon. given the consensus and no reason given for current title, i support immediately changing the title. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Zuzu8691 (talk • contribs) 09:23, 1 October 2024 (UTC) Struck per WP:ARBPIA and WP:ARBECR. – 🌻 Hilst (talk | contribs) 14:20, 1 October 2024 (UTC)
• Support. Reliable sources call this an invasion in their own voice. "Ground operation" is a euphemistic term used by the Israeli government and not neutral. Cortador (talk) 09:29, 1 October 2024 (UTC)
• Strong support per nom. CoaxAndBotany (talk) 09:54, 1 October 2024 (UTC)
• Strong support per nom. NHCLS (talk) 10:30, 1 October 2024 (UTC)

  Strong Support per nom. InterDoesWiki (talk) 10:33, 1 October 2024 (UTC) Struck per WP:ARBPIA and WP:ARBECR. – 🌻 Hilst (talk | contribs) 14:20, 1 October 2024 (UTC)

• Strong support per everyone above, and suggest speedy close per WP:SNOW. Chaotic Enby (talk · contribs) 10:53, 1 October 2024 (UTC)
• Strong support per nom, this is the naming used overwhelmingly by reliable news sources TappyTurtle [talk | contribs] 11:15, 1 October 2024 (UTC)

strong support per nom and speedy move — Preceding unsigned comment added by Stephan rostie (talk • contribs) 11:57, 1 October 2024 (UTC)

I think someone can move it now, its nearly unanimous support Braganza (talk) 12:12, 1 October 2024 (UTC)

Strong support, makes sense to move it now, there's virtually universal consensus - presidentofyes, the super aussa man 12:15, 1 October 2024 (UTC)

• Comment this discussion will need to be closed by a page mover or admin as the new title has edit history. I would but I don't currently have either permission. Aydoh8^[contribs] 12:18, 1 October 2024 (UTC)

  Strong support WP should not use any country's military euphemisms for an invasion however "limited". Makeandtoss (talk) 12:43, 1 October 2024 (UTC)

• Support, per arguments above. Hosein (talk) 12:48, 1 October 2024 (UTC) Struck per WP:ARBPIA and WP:ARBECR. – 🌻 Hilst (talk | contribs) 14:20, 1 October 2024 (UTC)
• Support per nom and the discussion above. I would also suggest speedy close per WP:SNOW. — Sundostund mppria ^{(talk / contribs)} 13:52, 1 October 2024 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

More reactions by countries

https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2024/10/1/us-out-of-step-as-world-reacts-to-israels-ground-offensive-into-lebanon Seems like Japan, the UAE, and the Us have responded now aswell. Rad da writer (talk) 10:26, 1 October 2024 (UTC)

Map of the conflict

Maybe it would be handy to add some kind of map for the conflict? Berobalkan (talk) 11:04, 1 October 2024 (UTC)

Since the invasion just started, we dont know yet how the frontline is, once we know, a map will be made Lucasmota0975 (talk) 12:11, 1 October 2024 (UTC)

Support someone should make a map once the front lines are known. HuntersHistory (talk) 16:18, 1 October 2024 (UTC)

The good editors in my opinion are @Glrx and @Physeters. They are both skilfull and have edited Ukraine war map. Berobalkan (talk) 17:45, 1 October 2024 (UTC)

Background

The current background version is incorrect (eg it claims Hezbollah attacked northern Israel on Oct 8, which is not true). The same incorrect material keeps getting replicated across many articles. There was a consensus version here and I suggest we use that. It is:

Shortly after the onset of the Israel-Hamas war in October 2023, Hezbollah joined the conflict, citing solidarity with Palestinians, which quickly escalated into regular cross-border military exchanges impacting northern Israel, southern Lebanon and the Golan Heights. Hezbollah said it aimed to pressure Israel by forcing it to fight on two fronts. Hezbollah has offered an immediate ceasefire should a ceasefire also happen in Gaza, where 40,000 Palestinians have been killed, majority being women and children. From 8 October 2023 to 20 September 2024, Hezbollah has launched 1,900 cross border attacks, and Israel has launched another 8,300. The fighting killed 564 in Lebanon (including 133 civilians), and 52 in Israel (including 27 civilians), displaced entire communities in Israel and Lebanon, with significant damage to civilian infrastructure.

After this we'd write about the pager attacks, assassination of Nasrallah, and other bombings. VR _{(Please ping on reply)} 11:29, 1 October 2024 (UTC) VR _{(Please ping on reply)} 11:29, 1 October 2024 (UTC)

References

Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 1 October 2024

Change "2024 Israeli invasion of Lebanon" to "2024 Israeli Invasion of Lebanon following 8,000+ rocket attacks on civilian targets"

Source: https://thehill.com/policy/defense/4893654-hezbollah-has-fired-more-than-8000-rockets-toward-israel-since-october-7-ambassador/

Source: Danny Danon, Israel Ambassador to UN, in a speech to the UN 2601:189:4100:1FD0:28FC:7342:ADC7:C09C (talk) 16:54, 1 October 2024 (UTC)

 Not done: page move requests should be made at Wikipedia:Requested moves. Cannolis (talk) 18:16, 1 October 2024 (UTC)

Category:Terrorist incidents in Tel Aviv

Is there an article about the current attacks in Tel Aviv? Web-julio (talk) 16:58, 1 October 2024 (UTC)

this is not relevant to the topic of this article. 2024 Iran–Israel conflict would be better suited for this Mason7512 (talk) 21:16, 1 October 2024 (UTC)

Reactions

The summary of Italy's reaction is somewhat deceptive as it leaves out the key detail that it would only be offering military support in a situation supported by Israel.

Also, I've searched for the original source of the quote attributed to the Danish Prime Minister, but have been unable to find it on either English and Danish sources. At best I've found one Danish and one Swedish publication that quotes other publications as having quoted her as saying such, but have found no original sources. Additionally the quote appears to have little to no traction in other reliable sources especially in English language media, and the sources I have been able to find are of questionable reliability and sometimes offer different summary of her apparent words. Something that certainly seems odd. Consequently I suspect Al Jazeera got duped by a fake quote and therefore more reliable sources, and ideally the original source of the quote, should be added. ChristofferItzakah (talk) 00:19, 2 October 2024 (UTC)

Iranian missile attack

Since the Iranian missile attack today on October 1st was a result of the Israeli aggression in Lebanon, any casualties and damage from the missile attack should be included, as well as the involvement of Iran and other Axis of Resistance members in the "belligerents" section since an attack on Hezbollah would mean an attack on the alliance itself Mauzer's random BS (talk) 02:51, 2 October 2024 (UTC)

Add names of all hezbollah commanders involved (incl. slain ones like hassan nasrallah and ali karaki)

in the israeli side some of the commander names are given, yet not all. add the names of hezbollah commanders in the belligerents not just the leader. also if possible, add iran/irgc and axis of resistance/other islamic terror groups present in south lebanon. 2A02:2908:4101:8F7F:6182:F8F4:FD7E:8164 (talk) 05:24, 2 October 2024 (UTC)

request to change name from 2024 israeli invasion of lebanon

change it to: 2024 israeli invasion of south lebanon or, israel-hezbollah war or, 2024 israel-hezbollah conflict or, 2024 israeli invasion of hezbollah or, 2024 israeli invasion of hezbollah controlled lebanon

reason for request: israel has not declared war against lebanon, only hezbollah General Phoenix (talk) 05:28, 2 October 2024 (UTC)

If you want to make a formal move request, see instructions at WP:RMCM. However, keep in mind that there was very recently a recent RM that had consensus to move the page title to what it currently is. ArkHyena (talk) 08:23, 2 October 2024 (UTC)

Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 2 October 2024

The strength is compromising of 4 divisions, the Israeli army has put in 70K troops. 2A02:8109:B607:5000:2582:1E0C:F105:76A8 (talk) 11:16, 2 October 2024 (UTC)

 Not done: please provide reliable sources that support the change you want to be made. Sincerely, Guessitsavis (she/they) (Talk) 12:14, 2 October 2024 (UTC)

Lede

I've made further improvements to lede that I have not been able to instate due to 1RR:

On 1 October 2024, Israel invaded Lebanon as part of the ongoing Israel–Hezbollah conflict.

The ground invasion followed a week of major Hezbollah setbacks in September that degraded its capabilities and devastated its leadership, that began with an Israeli attack that detonated their communication devices, and culminated with the assassination of its leader Hassan Nasrallah on 27 September. Throughout that week Israeli airstrikes targeted Hezbollah's infrastructure across southern Lebanon.

The Israeli military declared parts of Israel's northern border are a closed military zones. Israel states that the operation seeks to root out Hezbollah's forces and infrastructure that pose a threat to civilian communities in the north of the country Israel. The country also stated that Hezbollah was preparing for an attack similar to Hamas' 2023 Hamas-led attack on Israel.

On the same day, the Lebanese Armed Forces (LAF) withdrew from the Blue Line. Hezbollah denied that the Israeli military had entered Lebanon. Makeandtoss (talk) 11:21, 2 October 2024 (UTC)

Losses

Israel has lost 3 merkava tanks in the invasion as of now per hezbollah

https://www.lbcgroup.tv/news/lebanon-news/801167/hezbollah-says-destroyed-three-merkava-tanks-advancing-on-lebanon-vill/en

https://en.abna24.com/story/1490939 217.150.82.145 (talk) 16:15, 2 October 2024 (UTC)

IDF casualty

as of 10/2 since the invasion the death toll is 8 not 14 [1]https://idfanc.activetrail.biz/ANC0212024124457 https://www.idf.il/%D7%A0%D7%95%D7%A4%D7%9C%D7%99%D7%9D/%D7%97%D7%9C%D7%9C%D7%99-%D7%94%D7%9E%D7%9C%D7%97%D7%9E%D7%94/Aqwsf (talk) 16:24, 2 October 2024 (UTC)

sky news arabia

@Viewsridge I'm beginning to see a pattern here but I won't comment on it.

I do not see that sky news arabia is considered a depreciated or otherwise unreliable source. Part of me wants to say that an Arabic source is immediately deemed unreliable when no previous review of it concluded such a thing suggests bad faith but that's neither here nor there. Basically my question is, is there any reason you consider sky news arabia to be an "unreliable source" Genabab (talk) 16:41, 2 October 2024 (UTC)

Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 2 October 2024

Would reccomend adding on the infobox the https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Israel-Lebanon-Syria-border-Conflict-2023.svg since its the map, also it has to be updated since some reports and footage show Israeli troops are already in Lebanese territories. Lucasoliveira653 (talk) 18:15, 2 October 2024 (UTC)

Hezbollah claim of 3 destroyed Israeli tanks

I don't think these deserve to be added to the article, let alone, to the infobox. During the Gaza conflict Hamas falsely claimed destroying hundreds of Israeli tanks. And Hezbollah has made similar ludicrous claims during its conflict, claiming to have killed 2,000 Israeli soldiers, while the real tally is less than 25. Viewsridge (talk) 22:29, 2 October 2024 (UTC)

I don't think there's anything wrong with it, its already got the "Hezbollah claim" disclaimer. </MarkiPoli> <talk /><cont /> 22:56, 2 October 2024 (UTC)

I agree. furthermore, cites a reliable source, as does the "2,000 Israeli soldiers" claim viewsridge removed earlier today. In my opinion, both ought to be included under the heading Per Hezbollah Genabab (talk) 23:40, 2 October 2024 (UTC)