Talk:2022/Archive 2

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Archive 5

Group cleaning for year pages

for years people have been saying to cleanup the past year pages, and now it's going to happen. a few weeks ago, TheScrubby said in this talk page, that he wouldn't be opposed to a group clean up of all the past years pages. where every week we focus on one year page and clean said page up getting rid of non notable stuff and adding notable stuff that wouldn't be added when the Articles were first made. what year should we do first. a year in the 1970's, 80's, 90's 2000's ? and when the year is decided we'll continue it in that Year's talk page. 4me689 (talk) 23:27, 19 March 2022 (UTC)

I doubt that many people will do that in a co-ordinated way. There are only several regular, frequent editors of main year articles. Jim Michael (talk) 16:30, 20 March 2022 (UTC)

Please don't mass-delete entries. A few edits here and there is fine, but there isn't a need for some massive overhaul. Pages need to stay interesting and informative. For instance, there are many "domestic" events that actually turned out to be very important historically, e.g. Random example is U.S. civil rights stuff. Wjfox2005 (talk) 07:39, 21 March 2022 (UTC)

Yes, it's better to do things gradually. However, there are far too many domestic events on main year articles. Many contain trivial awards, controversies, couples marrying & splitting up as well as local events that aren't even important enough for year by country articles. Many include releases of singles, albums, video games, films & essays as well as weather events that are not known to have caused any deaths, the openings of plays & start & end dates of TV shows. They often stay on those articles for weeks, months or even years. Jim Michael (talk) 17:22, 21 March 2022 (UTC)

You mention video games. The release of something like Pong or Pacman in the 70s/80s would be considered "historical". Newer games e.g. Call of Duty would be less important, and I'd probably agree with their deletion. Landmark films such as Star Wars or Jurassic Park were highly notable for their time. I generally agree with you, I'm just saying the criteria for deletion shouldn't be quite so black-and-white, and there needs to be more context/flexibility. Wjfox2005 (talk) 07:31, 22 March 2022 (UTC)

We have articles such as 2022 in film & 2022 in video games for those. It's rare for it to be justified for their releases to be on main year articles. Jim Michael (talk) 17:23, 22 March 2022 (UTC)

Yes, and those pages list vast numbers of non-notable films/games. That doesn't mean we can *never* include films or games on main year pages, if they are particularly notable (which Star Wars clearly is, since it was a landmark in visual effects, garnered a massive worldwide following and has contributed significantly to modern culture). Likewise, Pong was the first commercially successful video game, and is therefore notable. Wjfox2005 (talk) 21:28, 22 March 2022 (UTC)

Jim Michael, who would you consider "regular, frequent editors", at least on this page. I can think of five. You Jim Michael, TheScrubby and Black Kite (talk) 18:51, 10 January 2022 (UTC) are the only editors to garner 100 mentions on the talk page. You might also include _-_Alsoriano97, Wjfox2005 as regular editors. — Preceding unsigned comment added by The Voivodeship King (talk • contribs)

update: I am starting to update the death page for 2006 page we will continue this discussion on the 2006 page 4me689 (talk) 04:05, 4 April 2022 (UTC)

Fujiko Fujio (Result: exclusion)

Added to the April deaths list, but there is no such person. The Fujio name was a pen name of a duo of two artists who don't have Wikipedia articles, one having died in 1996 and the other this week. Since there is no article for Motoo Abiko, who died this week, and the duo stopped working together in 1987, I don't see this as a relevant entry for the 2022 article. In fact, I'm unconvinced that even the duo have international notability, let alone the individual artists. Black Kite (talk) 17:52, 7 April 2022 (UTC)

I don't necessarily see much of an issue with including duo members without individual articles - for instance, we rightly include both Phil and Don Everly of The Everly Brothers. In this case though, it's harder to say.... Doraemon alone should be enough to get them over the line, given the strong international notability of this, their most significant work. Count me as Neutral, leaning towards inclusion - but it should be under Abiko's name rather than the pen name, even if there is a slight differentiation between Fujiko A. Fujio (Abiko) and Fujiko F. Fujio (Hiroshi Fujimoto, who died in 1996). TheScrubby (talk) 02:36, 8 April 2022 (UTC)

They don't have international notability individually or as a duo. They merely have fans in other countries as well as their own, which is true of thousands of domestic figures, including writers, entertainers & sportspeople. Jim Michael (talk) 10:41, 8 April 2022 (UTC)

According to its article, though, Doraemon was written and illustrated by Fujiko F. Fujio (Fujimoto), not Abiko - whose name doesn't appear in the article at all. Black Kite (talk) 12:28, 8 April 2022 (UTC)

Hmm, that's interesting as the article for Fujiko Fujio explicitly credits both men for Doraemon. Also I would say, in response to Jim Michael, that being the creators of an internationally notable and popular manga turned long-running anime (that granted, is more notable outside of the English-speaking world in various Asian countries beyond just Japan) is sufficient grounds for inclusion. TheScrubby (talk) 04:24, 9 April 2022 (UTC)

Internationally popular, yes - but not internationally notable. In order to be the latter, it'd need to have won important awards outside Japan. If creating internationally popular works granted their makers international notability, it'd qualify thousands of people for main year articles - including film, television & theatre directors, writers, entertainers & artists. Jim Michael (talk) 11:08, 9 April 2022 (UTC)

I would take a glimpse at the reception and legacy sections of Doraemon’s Wiki page to give an indication of the franchise’s international notability. TheScrubby (talk) 19:34, 9 April 2022 (UTC)

That indicates that work's international notability rather than that of its authors. Jim Michael (talk) 21:48, 9 April 2022 (UTC)

It would be absurd to exclude the creators though, and not grant them recognition for said work - particularly when you consider that in this case, we're talking about creators whose work are in a language that is dominant in precisely one country. If they were say, Americans instead, and had an equivalent level of notability, their inclusion would be a foregone conclusion. Indeed, we saw this with Stephen Hillenberg, who is primarily known for creating one internationally notable franchise, to give one relatively recent example. TheScrubby (talk) 23:58, 9 April 2022 (UTC)

Hillenburg shouldn't be included either. He was a domestic figure whose work has fans in many countries. Jim Michael (talk) 06:38, 10 April 2022 (UTC)

Quick question, since we removed Fujiko A Fujio from this article, should I remove Fujiko F. Fujio from the 1996 page. 4me689 (talk) 18:33, 9 April 2022 (UTC)

Neither should be in the Births or Deaths sections of main year articles. Jim Michael (talk) 21:48, 9 April 2022 (UTC)

Notice of group resource

I would like to invite any interested editors here to join the task force for Contemporary History. One of our core goals is to highlight and promote the coverage of contemporary history as its own distinct area here at Wikipedia.

We differ from a simple effort to cover current events, in that we seek to provide the editing community with resources that would allow it to provide broad and comprehensive coverage of articles on contemporary history as a broad topical field, rather than simply on individual current events as they may occur.

to that end, we have set up articles such as 2020s in political history, which allow the whole editing community to adopt a broad scope in keeping wikipedia updated with broad historical trends, topics and events, as they occur, but also as they become relevant to the field of history overall. I hope that sounds helpful and worthwhile to you. you are welcome to join us in any way, or to offer any input or ideas that you may wish. we welcome your input. thanks!! --Sm8900 (talk) 14:48, 12 April 2022 (UTC)

Gilbert Gottfried (Result: exclusion)

Turns out that at least three of the people wanting Gottfried included were in reality just a single person.

Does Gilbert Gottfried meet the international notability bar for inclusion? Like Bob Saget, Louie Anderson and Estelle Harris, he has some notability that’s primarily in his country of origin, but I don’t think he has the international notability to be included here. Indeed, I note that he wasn’t even included on 1955 until now - and of course the same applies there as it does here r.e. notability. TheScrubby (talk) 03:05, 13 April 2022 (UTC) Exclude due to a lack of international notability. Like those you mention, he was a domestic figure who had fans in other countries as well as his own, explaining the large number of articles & international media coverage. Jim Michael (talk) 10:26, 13 April 2022 (UTC) I think that's actually why he doesn't have international notability - he was pretty much unknown outside North America. If he was known worldwide then the coverage of his death would have been much wider and more importantly in-depth, and would have contributed to notability. Black Kite (talk) 11:30, 13 April 2022 (UTC) His distinctive voice is recognised by millions of people across many countries, but many of those couldn't name him & don't know much about him. He didn't win any awards outside the US, so I can't see a case for including him. Jim Michael (talk) 12:17, 13 April 2022 (UTC) I'm pretty sure Aladdin was an internationally acclaimed movie, also Gilbert Gottfried did international tours and had international awards. EmilyPhillipson (talk) 15:42, 14 April 2022 (UTC) Exclude. He is well known in the American comedy scene, but I doubt someone in Azerbaijan knows who he is. His notability in other words, is Americentric. PeaceInOurTime2021 (talk) 21:29, 14 April 2022 (UTC) He was known internationally. Funny that you bring up Azerbaijan, a country where he was known and the media covered him. I'm not American and I know who Gilbert Gottfried was (according to you I shouldn't since I'm not American), I watched Cyberchase as a kid and watched Aladdin (a movie that was internationally viewed). He should be included for those reasons plus his international comedy tours. EmilyPhillipson (talk) 23:51, 14 April 2022 (UTC) What do you mean Americentric? He was globally known as far east as Japan. He did international shows and was in international movies. I'm assuming you don't know who Gilbert Gottfried was or don't know much about him, but he wasn't Americentric. CountingStars500 (talk) 14:14, 15 April 2022 (UTC) He had fans in many countries - as do thousands of entertainers - but he was a domestic figure. He didn't win any important awards outside the US. Jim Michael (talk) 15:16, 15 April 2022 (UTC) What makes you assume he didn't win any awards outside the US? CountingStars500 (talk) 15:46, 15 April 2022 (UTC) There's no mention of any in his article. Are you saying he did win some? If so, add them to his article. Jim Michael (talk) 16:13, 15 April 2022 (UTC) His international contributions are already on his Filmography. CountingStars500 (talk) 18:04, 15 April 2022 (UTC) His international significance is already on his article. I don't understand how someone's Wikipedia article can only be 1 paragraph is deemed notable, but someone with international contributions is not and a lengthy article with multiple international acknowledgements is not notable. Gilbert Gottfried was the Aflec duck and on his Wiki-bio it clearly states: "In March 2011, Gottfried tweeted twelve jokes about the earthquake disaster in Japan. Aflac, which does 75% of its business in Japan, responded by dismissing Gottfried from voicing its mascot and announcing a casting call for his replacement. But your logic is "Nobody in Japan knew who the hell Gottfried was since he's American". EmilyPhillipson (talk) 18:16, 15 April 2022 (UTC) The people here determine who is notable and not based on gut feelings. Yeah, it's true that people are deemed notable with only a few paragraphs on their article and not notable who have international qualifications. It doesn't have to make sense for the gatekeepers. CountingStars500 (talk) 18:28, 15 April 2022 (UTC) His international significance is nowhere near enough. Working for a company which also operates in other countries doesn't make a person internationally notable, nor does telling jokes about events in other countries or having fans in other countries. Him having been American is irrelevant, although Americans are the most over-represented nationality on main year articles & WP in general. The length of a person's article is irrelevant. Many very internationally notable people have short articles & many domestic figures have long articles. Jim Michael (talk) 19:10, 15 April 2022 (UTC) How is the length of the article irrelevant? Should someone's notableness come across in their article (that's a claim you make)? Is an Acting President of a country who was only in for a few months and had few policy impacts on said country much less the world more notable than someone who won international awards and went on international tours? So, yes length does matter. CountingStars500 (talk) 20:03, 15 April 2022 (UTC) "His international significance is nowhere near enough", that's based on your gut feeling. You don't personally know enough about his impact. That shouldn't be a factor for exclusion. Why do you vouch for people who are irrelevant on an international scale but deem relevant people who lack significance? EmilyPhillipson (talk) 20:10, 15 April 2022 (UTC) To be fair to Jim Michael he may innocently not know. Yes, Gilbert Gottfried is internationally notable (more so than most people on the list). But, don't bash Jim Michael has it being his "gut feeling", I honestly think he's simply misunderstanding the contributions of Gilbert Gottfried. I'm willing to give Jim the benefit of the doubt. CountingStars500 (talk) 20:21, 15 April 2022 (UTC) A person's notability should be made clear in their article, but that's sometimes done in a short article. Acting leaders don't necessarily qualify, although heads of state/gov otherwise usually do. What international awards did GG win? I don't go by gut feeling; I read the articles. Jim Michael (talk) 20:40, 15 April 2022 (UTC) He won awards for his role of Digit (Cyberchase) Canadian awards, Awards for the United Kingdom tours, and the Aflec Duck prior to his firing after the earthquake (mentioned in his article). CountingStars500 (talk) 20:54, 15 April 2022 (UTC) He also won the Rondo Hatton Classic Horror Awards an award that is internationally awarded. @CountingStars500 It's nice of you to give Jim Michael the benefit of the doubt, but there's still striking inconsistencies on who he considers notable and not. Include Gilbert Gottfried. https://www.imdb.com/name/nm0331906/awards EmilyPhillipson (talk) 21:20, 15 April 2022 (UTC) He won that award for a website that he created not exactly his own acting/comedic career. Jojoju1998 (talk) 17:30, 16 April 2022 (UTC) He was the most sought out comedian more so than Norm Macdonald. Gottfried was more notable than Jerry Seinfeld prior to the Seinfeld sitcom. I really don't know why you assume Gottfried is not notable enough? At least when it comes to various comedians that are included. Just strange to me. EmilyPhillipson (talk) 21:05, 15 April 2022 (UTC) Keep in mind his longest role was on a non-American show, so I don’t know where this Americentric accusation comes from. Liam Davenport (talk) 06:25, 16 April 2022 (UTC) Just on the point of the oft-cited Aladdin, it’s been well-established that being a supporting actor for a major film/franchise is not sufficient grounds for automatic inclusion. Gottfried’s inclusion would quite simply be a total aberration when it comes to the inclusion of entertainment figures here, due to his lack of international notability. TheScrubby (talk) 08:46, 16 April 2022 (UTC) GG's article doesn't say he won any non-American awards. If he did, they should be stated in his article. It's highly unlikely that they're important enough to grant him inclusion in this article. Where are the inconsistencies in regard to whom I consider notable enough for inclusion on main year articles? Which comedians (or entertainers in general) are you saying that I've added or said should be included whom you think shouldn't be? Jim Michael (talk) 09:58, 16 April 2022 (UTC) Gilbert was more notable than Norm Macdonald in the comedy role. Why was Macdonald included? Liam Davenport (talk) 14:05, 16 April 2022 (UTC) The inconsistencies is when you say "if it is important it would be on there article" then go on to say "article length doesn't factor in to notability". That's a contradiction. There'd need to be the needed information to claim notability. But, you decide to move the goalposts. CountingStars500 (talk) 14:13, 16 April 2022 (UTC) Well, you have included say an Italian whose only been in a minor show in Italy as notable. Minor European domestic figures that people in their respective countries will scratch their heads at the mention of. On the other hand Gottfried roles are broad and internationally known. IMDb is much more knowledgeable about the significance of entertainers. EmilyPhillipson (talk) 14:24, 16 April 2022 (UTC) Why are you ignoring his other roles? His longest role was non-American. Liam Davenport (talk) 14:02, 16 April 2022 (UTC) Hm, "It’s been well-established that being a supporting actor for a major film/franchise is not sufficient grounds for automatic inclusion", then why have supporting actors in film franchises been included countless times before. Regardless, Gottfried has been in more than just Aladdin so you are purposefully downgrading his career. The "I don't know enough about this guy personally therefore he's not notable" mentality needs to stop. EmilyPhillipson (talk) 14:31, 16 April 2022 (UTC) Robin Williams who worked as both an actor and a comedian, won an oscar for his role in Good Will Hunting, that makes him far more notable than Gottfried. Jojoju1998 (talk) 17:10, 16 April 2022 (UTC) Winners of Awards are determined by a small group of people. There needs to be a better method. Liam Davenport (talk) 20:24, 16 April 2022 (UTC) I am ehh on Gottfried. So what ever I will say in the next few paragraphs is more of general points and questions. 1. If we were to include this guy, then it makes Bob Saget fair game again. Of course, the vast consensus was against Saget being included and rightfully so. Both Saget and Gottfried are Comedian/Actor types. 2. We did include previous comedian/actors before 2020, people like Don Rickles, Robin Williams. Although one could make the argument that Since Robin Williams won an Oscar, and other internationally recognized awards, he was automatically included on that, not his comedic career. 3. Should we have separate guidelines for comedians since they do not have international awards ? How does one measure notability for comedians since there isn’t a international comedian award that I know ? 4. Finally, I agree with Jim and Scrubby on this, Well known films doesn’t mean notability. Or else you run the risk of excluding non Anglo Saxon actors. People from countries that are not the US, Or the UK would be excluded, simply because they are not known well in a dominant English speaking world. The recent French Actor who was included might not be well known to us English speaking people, but the guy has won awards in his home country of France and the greater European continent. Likewise, If Clint Eastwood were to die right now, he would be included. He is highly notable and has won awards, everywhere. 5. One final thing, the mention of Norm Macdonald is I think a false analogy. Mac Donald’s notability was predicated on his career as a Comedian not as a actor per se. And the consensus was towards inclusion. Gottfried’s notability even considering how international it is, is predicated on his acting career not his comedic career. That being said, Gottfried’s acting career itself I don’t think passes the smell test of notability. He did not win international agreed upon awards like an Oscar, Bafta, — Preceding unsigned comment added by 73.12.209.248 (talk) 14:48, 16 April 2022 (UTC) Bob Saget is fair game, always has been, Louie Anderson not so much. Gottfried has a BAFTA, don't know why you think he doesn't. In regards to the Anglo-Saxon argument minor actors of the English language are included, why not remove them in favour of more international actors/actresses such as European or South Asian? Gottfried won international awards, and his internationally known. Again, this "I don't know enough about the person so exclude them" is a mentality that needs to stop. EmilyPhillipson (talk) 14:59, 16 April 2022 (UTC) The Ebertfest 2022 is dedicated to Gilbert Gottfried. The Ebertfest is only centered around the major players in the entertainment industry. Gottfried got international awards. Liam Davenport (talk) 15:13, 16 April 2022 (UTC) He won an Emmy Award, an internationally presented entertainment award. Emmy Award recipients are included. On face-value your concern on not limiting space to American/British actors seems reasonable. But, it falls to pieces when you realize that minor American/British actors are included on the death lists as 'notable' that's valuable space for actors of international standing to be included who won award in their countries and internationally as well. There's great non-Western movies whose actors should be included but remove non-notable western entertainers instead of internationally awarded ones. CountingStars500 (talk) 15:33, 16 April 2022 (UTC) 1. I have been in favor of excluding any minor actor/actress. Therefore, your argument is based on a faulty assumption that I do support that. Any actor/actress included must have a international award, period. ( Alas, doing so would be a huge waste of time). Anyone from The Us, Uk, EUrope, Canada, South America, anywhere should meet the standards. 2. Speaking of international awards, Gottfried has never won an Emmy, or a Bafta. IMDB only shows one nomination for an Emmy. That’s it. Your argument for his inclusion is flawed already because it relies on the also faulty assumption that he has won international awards, which he has not. Only one nomination….. 3. If we want to do a real valid comparison, let’s compare Gottfried to Robin Williams. Robin Williams passes the smell test. 73.12.209.248 (talk) 15:46, 16 April 2022 (UTC) Gilbert Gottfried won an Emmy for his role in Cyberchase (a non-American show at that) in which he was a part of from 2002 to 2022. Multiple sources say he did win International awards including IMDb. CountingStars500 (talk) 15:50, 16 April 2022 (UTC) https://www.emmys.com/awards/nominations/award-search?search_api_views_fulltext=&submit=Search&field_celebrity_details_field_display_name=Gilbert+Gottfried&field_show_details_field_nominee_show_nr_title=&field_nominations_year_op=%3E%3D&field_nominations_year%5Bvalue%5D=1949-01-01&field_nominations_year_1_op=%3C%3D&field_nominations_year_1%5Bvalue%5D=2022-01-01 No Emmys. Straight from the source. He was only nominated for his role in Cyberchase. No wins. Jojoju1998 (talk) 16:00, 16 April 2022 (UTC) The cast of Cyberchase won a CINE Eagle, a Canadian award. Geuss international awards don't count anymore: https://www.imdb.com/title/tt0309141/awards CountingStars500 (talk) 16:03, 16 April 2022 (UTC) The cast, as a collective. Not him individually. And that award was for a single episode, and given to the producers, and director. It was not individually given to Gottfried for his performance, so therefore his individual notablity is not boosted by the group award. Same goes for the Emmy awards that the show recevied, if he received any individual awards, then yeah I would consider him, but no. Jojoju1998 (talk) 16:09, 16 April 2022 (UTC) People are still included as notable for group wins. That's a contradiction. The international acclaim of Gilbert Gottfried is much more than the articles made up of a paragraph or a single sentence of people deemed notable. Gottfried has a full article, not a paragraph block like those deemed notable. Gottfried's notability blows them out of the water. One sentence/one paragraph articles of people are clearly not notable. CountingStars500 (talk) 16:21, 16 April 2022 (UTC) Would you be so kind to provide me comparisons ? Jojoju1998 (talk) 16:34, 16 April 2022 (UTC) What about the inclusion of those who are solely nominated that are deemed notable already? You can't make a "standard" and inconsistently apply it. Liam Davenport (talk) 16:23, 16 April 2022 (UTC) Like who may I ask ? Jojoju1998 (talk) 16:28, 16 April 2022 (UTC) For example, in 2021 Bonfoh Abass acting president of Togo was added. A minimal figure. Michael Nesmith as a mixed case in 2021. Liam Davenport (talk) 16:50, 16 April 2022 (UTC) Bonfoh Abass was a head of state, and head of government. You can't compare political figures to entertainment figures, the page already decided as a consensus what the rules were for political figures last year, which you can read on the talk pages. And Abass met the requirements for political figures. Michael Nesmith, I was leaning against to be honest, but the consensus was for inclusion. Jojoju1998 (talk) 16:54, 16 April 2022 (UTC) Bonfoh Abass an acting head of state who was only in for for a few months, and had no international impact and not even enough time for significant domestic impact. Liam Davenport (talk) 17:26, 16 April 2022 (UTC) Yeah, Abass was borderline, but that is somewhat irrelevant per WP:OSE, if you're going to argue for Gottfried's inclusion it needs to be on his reasons for inclusion, not the fact you believe he's more important than someone else. Black Kite (talk) 17:33, 16 April 2022 (UTC) "If you're going to argue for Gottfried's inclusion it needs to be on his reasons for inclusion", reasons for his inclusion were already given, but overlooked based on preconceived notions and inconsistent applying of the standards. Liam Davenport (talk) 20:31, 16 April 2022 (UTC) We never had standards until last year. Which was why pre 2020, we had a bunch of no name actors, mostly American. And I would like to know where the standards were inconsistently applied. Jojoju1998 (talk) 20:48, 16 April 2022 (UTC) Gilbert Gottfried has clearly surpassed the international notableness of Norm Macdonald. Macdonald was included, but Gottfried wasn't even considering international acclaim. Therefore, inconsistently applied. CountingStars500 (talk) 20:57, 16 April 2022 (UTC) Norm and Gilbert should not be included because they do not have any international awards. No individual awards for that matter. Jojoju1998 (talk) 21:49, 16 April 2022 (UTC) If Gilbert Gottfried isn’t notable why does he have a Wikipedia page in the first place? He’s not a red link. Liam Davenport (talk) 16:06, 16 April 2022 (UTC) Same reason why Corbin Bleu has a wikipedia page. Doesn't mean he's going to be included on the main page if he dies. Jojoju1998 (talk) 16:24, 16 April 2022 (UTC) Gilbert Gottfried is actually internationally well-known Corbin Bleu's claim to fame was High School Musical. Liam Davenport (talk) 16:26, 16 April 2022 (UTC) "Nobody know Gilbert Gottfried outside the US" is baloney. Portuguese News: https://dial.news/ebertfest-2022-announces-complete-lineup-will-be-dedicated-to-sidney-poitier-and-gilbert-gottfried-festivals-awards/ EmilyPhillipson (talk) 16:35, 16 April 2022 (UTC) If Gottfried won an award in Portugal, i would be inclined to include him. Jojoju1998 (talk) 16:56, 16 April 2022 (UTC) My point that is that international media publications have covered Gottfried. So, the insistence that only Americans know Gottfried or that only American media covered Gottfried is erroneous. The Ebertfest is an important film event and why would they diminish the legacy of Sidney Poitier, a notable figure with Gilbert Gottfried whose apparently a "nobody"? But, the Ebertfest is dedicating it to both? They chose both and the international media is covering the event. You're incorrect to assume that Gottfried was a "nobody" that was only known in the United States. EmilyPhillipson (talk) 17:09, 16 April 2022 (UTC) I didn't say Gottfried was a nobody. I said that being well known doesn't mean notability as Jim and Scrubby have said or else we would have to include every celebrity in the US if they die. And that would exclude alot of Asian, European, Latin American Actors simply because they're not famous enough in the Anglo Saxon sphere. And we would have alot of American celebrties simply because they're famous. It's Americentrism. And that's a problem. Oh sure, many non American actors do have short wikipedia articles... in English. If people were to look at the french version for example, it would be much more longer, and it would have lists of international awards. As for the Eberfest, looking at the history of it, it seems to be a Americentric Film Festival unlike Cannes, Venice, Berlin. Which therefore does not signify international notability. William Hurt by your standards with all due respect would not have been included upon his death, simply because he had a lower profile and yet he won many of the international film awards. Jojoju1998 (talk) 17:19, 16 April 2022 (UTC) William Hurt was internationally notable. The Ebertfest is international and covered movies from French, German, Mexican, Hong Kong actors and directors just to name a few. I'm pretty sure that France, Germany, Mexico, and Hong Kong aren't part of the United States. EmilyPhillipson (talk) 17:41, 16 April 2022 (UTC) Well it's certainly not Sundance. Which has awards given to indie films, international films. Jojoju1998 (talk) 17:50, 16 April 2022 (UTC) Ebertfest is more international than Sundance. I just gave a short list of countries that's included the list goes on films from: Norway, Spain, Australia, Japan, India, Iran, Italy. This is a Film festival being dedicated to Gilbert Gottfried. EmilyPhillipson (talk) 17:56, 16 April 2022 (UTC) For this year only, because he died recently. Jim Michael (talk) 17:58, 16 April 2022 (UTC) Yes, I'm aware it's for this year only. But, why would they honour someone so internationally un-notable with so many other worthy actors who died. It's like...he was internationally notable or something? I can't put my finger on it? EmilyPhillipson (talk) 18:03, 16 April 2022 (UTC) William Hurt didn’t have any tributes when he died. 73.12.209.248 (talk) 19:13, 16 April 2022 (UTC) That's exactly my point. An international Film festival dedicates it in honor of Gottfried and Poitier specifically. EmilyPhillipson (talk) 19:25, 16 April 2022 (UTC) And yet, Hurt is signifitcantly more notable than Gottfried, having an Oscar, Bafta, Cannes Film Award, and the David Award of Italy. A singular tribute even from a international film festival does not mean notability. Theoretically, a singular tribute is fleeting to be honest. It's not long lasting. An Oscar on the other hand is in the history books. Any film festival can have a tribute to a famous person. Does not mean they're notable. Sidney Poitier is notable not because of the Eberfest. It's because he made history as the African American Actor to win an Oscar and a Bafta. Jojoju1998 (talk) 19:35, 16 April 2022 (UTC) I never said that Sidney Poitier was notable because Ebertfest, I said Ebertfest won't randomly dedicate their events to the non-notables. Gilbert Gottfried is more notable that the stub pages deemed notable. EmilyPhillipson (talk) 19:45, 16 April 2022 (UTC) Sure. Perhaps, Gottfried is notable but only in the US. He has not won any international awards, not even the large ones, like the Oscar, Cannes, Emmy, Grammys. Anyone can do a tribute to a famous person, even a film festival but notability should go beyond being " well known ". If Vanessa Hudgens were to die right now, and a Film Festival did a tribute to her, it doesn't make her internationally notable. No major awards. Jojoju1998 (talk) 19:55, 16 April 2022 (UTC) Good thing that Gottfried has actually won awards. CountingStars500 (talk) 19:58, 16 April 2022 (UTC) He has won an Emmy actually. Liam Davenport (talk) 20:00, 16 April 2022 (UTC) No he hasn’t. He was only nominated for a single Emmy award in 2006. Jojoju1998 (talk) 20:27, 16 April 2022 (UTC) Group Emmys still count. Anyways nominations should still count too if awards are so important. It's a rarity to even be nominated. Plus, he won comedy awards. Liam Davenport (talk) 21:42, 16 April 2022 (UTC) Group Emmys don’t boost a person’s individual notability. And according to IMDB, he hasn’t won comedy awards that I know of. Jojoju1998 (talk) 21:48, 16 April 2022 (UTC) IMDb covers film, TV shows, and plays. Comedy Awards wouldn't be listed there. You'd have to look at comedy award pages. Liam Davenport (talk) 22:03, 16 April 2022 (UTC) Explain this: How come a person with an article consisting of one paragraph then a short reference section is deemed notable but a clear content based article isn't. Glaring contradiction. Liam Davenport (talk) 22:06, 16 April 2022 (UTC) 1. I am not Wikipedia. Wikipedia has their rules for article creating. It’s a loaded question because international notability isn’t predicated on the length of a Wikipedia article. I would not include dead congressman Don Young just because he has a long article. 2. Going from that, a lot of notable people have stub articles. NoBel Science winners, Presidents and Head of States, doesn’t mean they’re less notable. Jojoju1998 (talk) 22:12, 16 April 2022 (UTC) This isn't Wikipedia's rules though. It's the"rules" of TheScrubby and Jim Michael. I agree that Don Young isn't notable for inclusion considering he's a domestic figure; that being said he's more notable than 1 paragraph then to the references. Liam Davenport (talk) 22:23, 16 April 2022 (UTC) Nobel Science winners have VERY in depth articles about their scientific endeavours and what led up to their prize. Not ONCE have I advocated the removal of Sidney Altman because he is notable. Liam Davenport (talk) 22:26, 16 April 2022 (UTC) Well Sidney Altman did win a international award for his science work. That makes him notable. Jojoju1998 (talk) 00:57, 17 April 2022 (UTC) Exactly, as I said I'm not advocating removing him. Liam Davenport (talk) 01:41, 17 April 2022 (UTC) Gilbert Gottfried won multiple comedy awards such as Cable Ace Award, a hosting award for horror, daytime Emmy awards. CountingStars500 (talk) 19:57, 16 April 2022 (UTC) Share the link where it says that Gottfried won an Emmy. Because I went to the heart of the source, the Emmy Website, and I found 0 awards for him. Jojoju1998 (talk) 20:07, 16 April 2022 (UTC) It was a Daytime Emmy Awards in 2007 for Cyberchase. Multiple people were already deemed notable for winning as part of a group. Besides, awards are determined based on a small select group. International recognition should be a major qualifier. Why is Norm Macdonald included? https://www.imdb.com/title/tt0309141/awards/ Liam Davenport (talk) 20:44, 16 April 2022 (UTC) 1. I did not support Norm McDonald’s inclusion as a outsider observer. And by the way, so did Scrubby, but our voices were ruled out by the consensus. The argument for Norm however was that he had international impact in both Canada and the US, as did Alex Trebek. And so, qualified. 2. The CYberchase Emmy award was attributed to the producers and directors for a singular episode, so it’s not like best picture or anything. The award wasn’t for best actor, best performance. Shohld we include the producers upon their death ? To compare, Bryan Cranston had 5 Emmy’s for his singular performances along with other awards. He would be included if he were to die, right now. Jojoju1998 (talk) 20:55, 16 April 2022 (UTC) You do realize how these awards are determined right? CountingStars500 (talk) 20:59, 16 April 2022 (UTC) "The argument for Norm however was that he had international impact in both Canada and the US, as did Alex Trebek. And so, qualified." Ummm, Gottfried's longest held role was on a CANADIAN show. How many times does this have to be said? CountingStars500 (talk) 21:02, 16 April 2022 (UTC) Okay then. Then I expect a An award for best performance from Gottfried on the show. If your argument is that the awards itself is flawed, then that’s beyond the scope of Wikipedia. The standards should be based off what is. I never supported Norm’s inclusion for the same reason Gottfried should not be included. Jojoju1998 (talk) 21:14, 16 April 2022 (UTC) "I never supported Norm’s inclusion for the same reason Gottfried should not be included." Not knowing the full details about their careers? The arbitration here is atrocious. Just because you, TheScrubby, Jim Michael, and Black Kite don't know the details about the full career on an international scale you should be open minded and learn a little bit more about them? Not that hard. CountingStars500 (talk) 01:30, 17 April 2022 (UTC) Not to mention the list is chock-full of non-notables. At least Gilbert Gottfried will add someone notible internationally instead of this one paragraph article nonsense. Liam Davenport (talk) 01:36, 17 April 2022 (UTC) Hold up, Alex Trebek and Macdonald were included because of their Canadian contributions. However, Gottfried's longest role was on a Canadian show. You don't see a contradiction in that logic? *facepalm* Liam Davenport (talk) 21:09, 16 April 2022 (UTC) I NEVER supported McDonald’s inclusion. And Trebek was a borderline inclusion that I would have leaned against if it wasn’t for Trebek’s awards. Jojoju1998 (talk) 21:17, 16 April 2022 (UTC) I never said you did support their inclusion. All I'm saying is Gottfried has Canadian contributions in which was claimed for the inclusion of Macdonald and Trebek. I'm calling out the inconsistency not that you promoted such an inconsistency yourself. Too many stub articles are deemed notable is headache inducing; Gottfried should be included to keep the list being notable at this point in time. Liam Davenport (talk) 21:36, 16 April 2022 (UTC) If so, I would expect Gottfried to have won an Canadian Award. He hasn’t. Nor has Macdonald for that matter. Trebek on the other hand, has 8 Emmy awards in the US. A pea body. In addition to a bunch of Canadian honors, which shows he has notability outside of his home country of Canada. Jojoju1998 (talk) 21:44, 16 April 2022 (UTC) Both Gottfried and Macdonald are staples in the comedy community; and DO have awards/nominations to prove it. Gottfried slightly more notable due to Aladdin. Gottfried should be included. And I'll go further, delete the people with one-paragraph on their article, they are NOT notable. CountingStars500 (talk) 21:50, 16 April 2022 (UTC) Like who may I ask ? Jojoju1998 (talk) 21:54, 16 April 2022 (UTC) Trebek was a game show host not a comedian. Yes, he's notable and yes he should be listed. CountingStars500 (talk) 21:51, 16 April 2022 (UTC) Trebek is notable because of his awards that he got outside of Canada, Peabody, Emmys, Gottfried and Macdonald for that matter do not have the international awards. And I don’t think group awards should count for a person’s individual notability. Jojoju1998 (talk) 21:57, 16 April 2022 (UTC) CINE Eagle is a Canadian Award. CountingStars500 (talk) 00:09, 17 April 2022 (UTC) Cyberchase won a Cine Eagle for a singular episode, and was attributed to the producrs and directors. Not to Gottfried specifically for his performance in the season. That is where the notabiity should be. Jojoju1998 (talk) 00:35, 17 April 2022 (UTC) It was for the show overall. Including Gottfried, who was a leading producer. CountingStars500 (talk) 00:47, 17 April 2022 (UTC) But not him specifically. Are we going to include all the producers of the show upon their death ? And it was only one episode, which doesn't make it as notable as say producing a entire season, or a entire tv Show for that matter. Jojoju1998 (talk) 00:58, 17 April 2022 (UTC) The most high ranking producers yes. Not all. CountingStars500 (talk) 01:02, 17 April 2022 (UTC) "Oh sure, many non American actors do have short wikipedia articles... in English." How easy is it to expand an article based on over language Wikipedias? Answer: EASY That being said I'm not talking about short articles of non-English actors. I'm talking about actors and actress who were on say Coronation Street for 4 episodes. Coronation Street is a British show where an actor can only have a paragraph and Jim Michael and TheScrubby deem them notable. I don't want the death list to be Americentric, or Western-centric. But, at the same time I also don't want someone whose internationally notable to be excluded purely because they're American. EmilyPhillipson (talk) 17:50, 16 April 2022 (UTC) Well Clint Eastwood would be included if he were to die right now. He has oscars, Golden globes, Cesar Awards, French national awards, Jojoju1998 (talk) 17:57, 16 April 2022 (UTC) Well, clearly Clint Eastwood would be included. EmilyPhillipson (talk) 18:14, 16 April 2022 (UTC) EmilyPhillipson Can you give us some examples of actors who were in Coronation Street "for 4 episodes", have no other notability, and are listed on a year article? Thanks. Black Kite (talk) 18:01, 16 April 2022 (UTC) I'm using Coronation Street as an example. There's been minor British actors with stub articles deemed notable. EmilyPhillipson (talk) 18:10, 16 April 2022 (UTC) Merely being in a few soap episodes wouldn't get an actor a WP article, let alone a place on a main year article. No-one's advocating for their inclusion. Jim Michael (talk) 18:14, 16 April 2022 (UTC) I've seen a quite a bit of stump articles you and TheScrubby claim are notable to the exclusion of notable non-stump articles. Athletes and other Sport figures for example. EmilyPhillipson (talk) 18:17, 16 April 2022 (UTC) Do you mean Olympic gold medallists? Jim Michael (talk) 18:20, 16 April 2022 (UTC) That's one example which the standard needs to be raised, there's thousands of gold-medal winners in the olympics. Other examples of stub articles you and TheScrubby promote include acting Prime Ministers/Presidents, stub actors who retired in the 1980s after doing a few episodes of a show. But, Gilbert Gottfried isn't notable? Even though Film festivals say he is and countless comedians. There's something up with that. EmilyPhillipson (talk) 18:30, 16 April 2022 (UTC) Give some examples of actors who merely did a few episodes of a show. Jim Michael (talk) 18:36, 16 April 2022 (UTC) Here's a list of people who you promoted that were miniscule notability: Django Sissoko Joachim Streich Josef Panáček Jack Higgins Egon Franke And yes, there's stub articles of actors whose gotten the pass from you. EmilyPhillipson (talk) 18:45, 16 April 2022 (UTC) None of those people are actors. I am going to have to assume that you can't actually name any, and therefore unless you can, I suspect this discussion is at an end. Black Kite (talk) 18:49, 16 April 2022 (UTC) ac·tor a participant in an action or process. "employers are key actors within industrial relations" EmilyPhillipson (talk) 18:51, 16 April 2022 (UTC) If you mean actors as in entertainers; - Dan Haggerty died in 2015 EmilyPhillipson (talk) 18:55, 16 April 2022 (UTC) I haven't promoted any of those you list. Sissoko was a PM, but only acting in that position, so he's borderline. I questioned Streich (who's since been removed) & Higgins. Panáček & Franke won individual Olympic gold medals. Haggerty - who died in 2016 - shouldn't be on 2016. Jim Michael (talk) 17:05, 17 April 2022 (UTC) Now you're simply trolling. You specifically said that actors who had been in "a few episodes" of soaps had been listed here. But you can't name any, and the reason you can't name any is because you're making it up. When you're now called out on it, you try to define "actors" as something else. That's trolling. Thanks for wasting my time, feel free to keep it up but I suspect the next stop will be WP:ANI. Black Kite (talk) 18:59, 16 April 2022 (UTC) Yes, I have seen those in the past. Mainly low-level British actors (such as Coronation). Not bashing the British, as I am British. But, I've called out those inclusions and they have been deleted. EmilyPhillipson (talk) 19:02, 16 April 2022 (UTC) How is she trolling? She said she'd seen past instances of low-level actors being listed on death lists who were only in a few episodes. Doesn't mean she can list specifics, I've seen low level actors with stump pages too can't list names since their low level. Seems like you're just straw-manning. CountingStars500 (talk) 19:10, 16 April 2022 (UTC) The only person who is straw-manning here is AliceEmily (and now you), but neither of you appear to be able to give any examples of these straw men on year articles (which would actually be helpful, because if they do exist they should be removed). Also, Alice claims to have "called out those inclusions and they have been deleted" before, yet in her 20-odd edits prior to today she had only mentioned three people who she thought should not be included, and they were all politicians. I actually couldn't care less about Gottfried, to be honest, I'm more interested now in these "stub actors". But it doesn't look like we're going to get any examples of them, which is unfortunate. Black Kite (talk) 09:06, 17 April 2022 (UTC) There is nobody with the name "Alice" that I see on this thread. CountingStars500 (talk) 15:27, 17 April 2022 (UTC) It seems like your confused on the definition of strawmanning: https://en.wiki.x.io/wiki/Straw_man CountingStars500 (talk) 16:57, 17 April 2022 (UTC) Emily, obviously. And you are clearly the confused one, as you two are the one attempting to refute the fact that Gottried is not internationally notable by inventing imaginary actors who have only appeared in a few episodes of a soap - which is the exact definition of straw-manning ("the real subject of the argument was not addressed or refuted, but instead replaced with a false one."). To be honest, though, I actually don't know why I'm arguing with two people who don't appear to be contributing anything to the encyclopedia apart from arguing, so this conversation is at an end, I'll let you have th last comment. Black Kite (talk) 17:34, 17 April 2022 (UTC) Nope, it you that is confused I quote from you "but neither of you appear to be able to give any examples of these straw men on year articles (which would actually be helpful, because if they do exist they should be removed)" you implied that a straw man was in reference to article length. No, a straw man is a logical fallacy where the real argument is't debunked. You are misrepresenting (deliberately or accidentally) what she is saying. CountingStars500 (talk) 18:20, 17 April 2022 (UTC) Actually, I don't think @Black Kite is strawmanning. My feeling is that @EmilyPhillipson isn't making her point clear enough and Black Kite is merely responding to the words on the screen. I'm on the Pro-Gottfried inclusion camp, but it's important to be fair to Black Kite. Liam Davenport (talk) 18:30, 17 April 2022 (UTC) There are not "thousands of Olympic gold medal winners", there are around 120 per Olympics, which of course with the Olympics being every 4 years works out at <30 per year given that Olympians compete in multiple Games and win multiple gold medals. And you still, despite being asked above, haven't given any actual examples of "stub actors who did a few episodes of a show" so unfortunately without such examples it is difficult to take your arguments seriously. Black Kite (talk) 18:37, 16 April 2022 (UTC) I gave an example of stub actors in years past that were clearly not notable. EmilyPhillipson (talk) 18:39, 16 April 2022 (UTC) Not on this page, you haven't. List them here, please. Black Kite (talk) 18:44, 16 April 2022 (UTC) There's thousands: https://worldpopulationreview.com/country-rankings/olympic-medals-by-country Add all gold medalists of all olympics together. EmilyPhillipson (talk) 18:50, 16 April 2022 (UTC) You do realise those figures are for every Olympics since 1896, and also include multiple team medals (which we don't count as inherently notable)? Black Kite (talk) 18:54, 16 April 2022 (UTC) What year do you want to go back to? EmilyPhillipson (talk) 18:56, 16 April 2022 (UTC) You can’t compare athletes to actors. They are completely different fields. 73.12.209.248 (talk) 19:22, 16 April 2022 (UTC) I'm not comparing them in and of themselves. I'm merely saying pointing out the claim that "someone's notability is determined by their article content", they have stub articles while Gottfried does not. I'm simply calling out the inconsistency of the argument. EmilyPhillipson (talk) 19:27, 16 April 2022 (UTC) Steve Wilhite has a stub article, and yet he's included because he invented the GIF, which is very notable. Jojoju1998 (talk) 19:30, 16 April 2022 (UTC) Steve Wilhite has shorter article but I don't consider it a stub, as it presents the needed info on why he's notable. However, there's people whose deemed "Notable" with only a tiny paragraph at the top then straight to the short reference section. Film festivals show the international qualification of Gilbert Gottfried. CountingStars500 (talk) 19:41, 16 April 2022 (UTC) Gottfried even so, was honored at one single film festival No Cannes. No Venice. No even Sundance. He does not have any award from those major large film festivals, which are considered to be the top of the rank for international film. If Spike Lee were to die right now, he would be included because of his two oscars, Bafta, Two emmys, a Peabody, and the Cannes Grand Prix. That makes him significantly more notable than Gottfried. This isn't being pro american or anti american bias, but it's about who is notable enough globally to be included on the main list. Jojoju1998 (talk) 20:00, 16 April 2022 (UTC) Spike Lee isn't dead though. Weird comparison to make for a death list. Liam Davenport (talk) 20:05, 16 April 2022 (UTC) Not really. We make comparisons to other living and dead celebrities all the time. We compared Kellerman for example with Glenn Close, Liam Neeson. Jojoju1998 (talk) 20:15, 16 April 2022 (UTC) He was honoured at Sundance too. CountingStars500 (talk) 21:58, 16 April 2022 (UTC) Also, Gilbert Gottfried was more notable in the comedy world than Macdonald. Known as a "comics comic", which was the reason to include Macdonald by the way. Considering that the Ebertfest is dedicating their 2022 event to both Sidney Poitier and Gilbert Gottfried shows that these two were high up in the entertainment industry. Gilbert Gottfried was the most sought out comedian for stand-up and he was on SNL. Gottfried was internationally acclaimed. https://www.rogerebert.com/festivals/ebertfest-2022-announces-complete-lineup-sidney-poitier-gilbert-gottfried CountingStars500 (talk) 16:00, 16 April 2022 (UTC) Norm Macdonald's notability was predicated on his career as a comedian, and he worked almost exclusively in the the Comedic world. However, Gottfried worked in both the acting and comedic worlds, you can't compare the two. A better comparision would be to Robin Williams who worked in both comedy and film/tv, and who did actually win individual awards like an Oscar, Emmys, Golden Globes. Jojoju1998 (talk) 16:33, 16 April 2022 (UTC) That's incorrect. Gilbert Gottfried was predominately a comedian he started out his career and ended it in comedy. He did acting as an addition, which should rank him above Norm Macdonald since Gottfried's acting career boosted his notability he already had from comedy. CountingStars500 (talk) 16:38, 16 April 2022 (UTC) So did Robin Williams, whose main career was in Comedy first. And yet, are we going to say Gottfried's notability outranks Williams's ? Or at least equals Williams's ? I don't think so. Fun fact : They both appeared in Aladdin. Kind of ironic. Jojoju1998 (talk) 16:51, 16 April 2022 (UTC) No, because Robin Williams developed a predominance in acting, he was originally a comedian but acting took on a larger role. Robin William's outranks Gottfried clearly in the acting realm. But, Gottfried outranks Macdonald or achieved the same notability in the comedy realm. Yes, both appeared in Aladdin an internationally viewed movie. CountingStars500 (talk) 16:57, 16 April 2022 (UTC) But there you have the problem, because the previous arguments near the top predicated Gottfried's notability on his acting career not his Comedic career. If the argument is that Gottfried is notable because of his film/tv roles, then it doesn't pass the smell test. If, the argument is that Gottfried is notable because of his comedic career only then, we run into a new problem, Anyone can say someone is a comic's comic, we don't have guidelines for what notabiliiy is in comedy, since there are no established awards except for the American Mark Twain Prize in Humor. Jojoju1998 (talk) 17:08, 16 April 2022 (UTC) Why do you assume there's no established comedy awards? There's the National Comedy Awards, Canadian Comedy Awards, American Comedy Awards, BBC New Comedy Awards, etc. EmilyPhillipson (talk) 17:15, 16 April 2022 (UTC) The Aristocrats Gilbert Gottfried based documentary directed by Penn Jilette and Paul Provenza was awarded the Best Documentary - 2005 U.S. Comedy Arts Festival. The insistence he was a low-level comedian was just wrong, he was internationally known and awarded: https://web.archive.org/web/20131104204245/http://movies.nytimes.com/movie/318685/The-Aristocrats/awards Liam Davenport (talk) 03:41, 17 April 2022 (UTC) 1. If Gottfried won any of those awards, at all, then tell me. Include Gilbert Gottfried is more internationally notable than Norm Macdonald. If Macdonald is included Gottfried should be too. Liam Davenport (talk) Include His contributions are international. His longest role was on a Canadian show. And he's notable in Europe and Asia. CountingStars500 (talk) Exclude due to him having insufficient international notability. Jim Michael (talk) 19:01, 17 April 2022 (UTC) Except that he has significant international notability. Canadian Awards, and awards in the comedy world. You're not the best gauge of who is notable and whose not. You accepted non-notable people. This page needs people who have more knowledge of determining these situations. Liam Davenport (talk) 21:38, 17 April 2022 (UTC) Not significant enough. I haven't accepted anyone who's not notable. I frequently remove or question the importance of people added to the Births & Deaths sections of main year articles, as well things in Events. Jim Michael (talk) 13:19, 18 April 2022 (UTC) It's been pointed out continuously to you that he is internationally notable. He's internationally awarded and nominated as a comedian and producer (CINE Eagle, Comedy awards, Ebertfest). You have been called out by multiple people for inconsistently applying "standards" by supporting people who aren't at all notable. I think people ingrained in the Entertainment field should be arbiters of this rather than you. EmilyPhillipson (talk) 21:51, 17 April 2022 (UTC) The Cine Eagle was for the episode, not for his performance indvididually. Does it mean that we have to include all the producers on the list upon their death ? Of course not ! We would all think that's crazy. 73.12.209.248 (talk) 00:50, 19 April 2022 (UTC) Include More notable than most of the people on the entire list. Jim Michael is clearly confused who is notable and whose not; his meter is off. It's been pointed out that Gottfried was not Americentric since he got awards in the UK and Canada, and his longest role (2002-2022) was on a Canadian show. I think it's important for Jim to know a thing about those who die before he makes a snap judgement to discredit someone's accomplishments. EmilyPhillipson (talk) 21:46, 17 April 2022 (UTC) His international notability is insufficient. I haven't made any snap judgements & haven't discredited anyone. Jim Michael (talk) 13:19, 18 April 2022 (UTC) Not true, he was the subject of a internationally acclaimed documentary. You're either: 1.) Discrediting Him 2.) Not Aware Liam Davenport (talk) 14:26, 18 April 2022 (UTC) Neither - I'm saying that doesn't make him sufficiently internationally notable. Jim Michael (talk) 14:45, 18 April 2022 (UTC) But, the non-notables you accepted are internationally notable, some who are barely notable in their own country? Gilbert Gottfried was the influencer that led to the careers of countless comedians (who paid tribute to him upon his death). Again, you're either 1.) discrediting him or 2.) Not Aware. I'm willing to give you the benefit of the doubt and say it's #2. Liam Davenport (talk) 14:53, 18 April 2022 (UTC) I haven't accepted anyone on main year articles who have little or no notability. I've read all of GG's article. Many comedians have influenced other comedians; that's still not enough for a place on here. Jim Michael (talk) 15:20, 18 April 2022 (UTC) You have. If it were up to you this page would be filled with one-time FIFA player and acting Presidents/Prime Ministers. But, Gilbert Gottfried had international awards, international tours, an awarded documentary, and his longest role was non-American and you refuse to include him. Liam Davenport (talk) 15:35, 18 April 2022 (UTC) You can't compare entertainers with Sports and Presidents. We already said this last year. Read the Bob Dole/Bob Saget discussion. The Consensus was already decided regarding Politicians. As for sports, we're still in the process of deciding notability. You can't do whataboutism. 73.12.209.248 (talk) 00:48, 19 April 2022 (UTC) So, you "read all of GG [Wikipedia] article" but refuse to read the full out context of his entire career? Liam Davenport (talk) 16:08, 18 April 2022 (UTC) You can see that I've questioned & removed many sportspeople - including FIFA players - and that I've been in favour of the inclusion of many entertainers. Jim Michael (talk) 16:18, 18 April 2022 (UTC) Many of which lack international notability. Liam Davenport (talk) 16:21, 18 April 2022 (UTC) You're saying I've added or supported the inclusion of entertainers who aren't internationally notable on main year articles? If so, who? Jim Michael (talk) 17:37, 18 April 2022 (UTC) Lists have been presented to you. Liam Davenport (talk) 19:12, 18 April 2022 (UTC) Lists of entertainers from before 2020, when Jim and Scrubby finally began to say we have to control the Main list. If we do this type of whataboutism, it would mean that we would have to go back every single year, and clean up all the lists going back to the 1980s. And that is very time consuming. All we can do now, is talk about... now. 73.12.209.248 (talk) 00:43, 19 April 2022 (UTC) What I find odd is multi-national publications are mentioning Gottfried's awards from their respective countries in obituaries. International people in the entertainment industry are paying tribute. Odd for someone who has no international notability. Are all these publications and worldwide celebrities the confused ones since you insist you are the "supreme lord of notableness determination"? CountingStars500 (talk) 23:30, 18 April 2022 (UTC) I agree with Jim though. If we include everyone based on newspaper publications, than every US based entertainer would be included, and that would be a clear case of Americentrism only because the US has wide media reach. What about the Swedish actress who won the Cannes award, and yet doesn't have a high level of US Media coverage and therefore no tributes ? Here's a person I would add if this said person were to die right now, Bryan Cranston. And I don't personally like his work, but he has 6 Individual Emmys for his performances. Along with Two Tonys. That makes me more notable than Gottfried. There. 73.12.209.248 (talk) 00:41, 19 April 2022 (UTC) Comment I think the problem with Gottfried is that even though he was known outside North America, he wasn't really known by name. So you'd get this: North America: "I see Gilbert Gottfried has died" "Oh, that's sad" Elsewhere: "I see Gilbert Gottfried has died" "Who?" "He did the voice of the parrot in Aladdin and those other films" "Oh, him. That's sad" Hence the disconnect between continents. Black Kite (talk) 07:52, 18 April 2022 (UTC) That's relegating him to a single role. He was a subject of an awarded documentary and did international comedy tours. Liam Davenport (talk) 14:27, 18 April 2022 (UTC) You're also assuming ignorance on the part of people outside North America. When told that Gottfried died people wouldn't need to be told he was the voice of the parrot in Aladdin. They'd be like "Oh, that's sad I saw his documentary, went to a few of his stand-ups, and saw Iago in Aladdin during my childhood." Liam Davenport (talk) 14:42, 18 April 2022 (UTC) He was known primarily for his distinctive voice. Jim Michael (talk) 14:45, 18 April 2022 (UTC) He was well-know for his voice, yes. But, he did international tours, multiple roles, and was a subject of an awarded documentary. Liam Davenport (talk) 14:50, 18 April 2022 (UTC) If Gottfried won a international award for his individual work in Alladin, then of course he would be included. Jojoju1998 (talk) 20:58, 18 April 2022 (UTC) He was the subject of an internationally acclaimed documentary. Again, relegate him to a single role. Liam Davenport (talk) 21:31, 18 April 2022 (UTC) But he never won any individual awards himself. 73.12.209.248 (talk) 00:46, 19 April 2022 (UTC) Why does his international award need to be limited to a single movie, namely Aladdin. Continue moving the goalposts, pretty soon you'll just run away with the goalposts. He was internationally awarded in comedy, an international film festival dedication and being on a non-American show, his longest role. Which crumbles the Americentric argument. EmilyPhillipson (talk) 21:48, 18 April 2022 (UTC) That role on the Non American Show, Cyberchase, he never won any awards for his individual role in Canada. https://en.wiki.x.io/wiki/Canadian_Screen_Award_for_Best_Performance_in_a_Children%27s_or_Youth_Program_or_Series He has never won a Canadian Screen Award, which limits his international notability. He's never even won a individual Emmy award in the US either. It's not moving the goal posts. He does not have any individual awards in Film, or TV. No Oscar. No Emmy. No Grammy. No Tony for that matter. And No Canadian Screen Award as well. Sidney Poitier was included because of his Oscar, Bafta, Golden Globes, and Grammy awards, that makes him highly notable, along with the Silver Bear Award I should add. Gottfried doesn't have any of those awards. The Cine Award that was given to Cyberchase, he wasn't even a director, or producer, so that's out of the question. With all due respect, I think you, Liam, and Counting are the ones stretching the goal posts. There is no international notability for Gottfried, and this is coming from a person that likes him alot. BUT HE HAS NOT NOTABILITY PERIOD. As for the International Film dedication, Just because one has a dedication, doesn't make them internationally notable, so you have to try something else. William Hurt didn't have Film dedications, and yet he is much more notable than Gootfriend. 73.12.209.248 (talk) 00:36, 19 April 2022 (UTC) The argument is he won Canadian Awards not specifically the Canadian Screen Award. Also, is documentary won the Special Jury Prize for Best Documentary at DeadCENTER, saying he won no awards is erroneous. His notability stretched as far east as Japan as the Aflec Duck. Also, nobody argued that Sidney Poitier is not notable, he is. The point was that the EbertFest is dedicating their event to both Poitier and Gottfried. The insistence that Gottfried was a nobody is wrong as his international obituaries describe his accomplishments in those respective countries. Liam Davenport (talk) 01:35, 19 April 2022 (UTC) 1. The Dead Center Film Awards thing; It was only a documentry about him, he didn't win any awards for HIMSELF. An Documentary Film about a subject does not mean that subject gains the notability from the said film. Just because the film itself wins the award, does not mean the topic in said film gains the notability from such a film. It's a very indirect connection you're making. If Gottfried won an Oscar for Best Supporting actor in a film, then yes, I would include him right away. Because he won an award for his direct individiual performance in the film. If William Hurt's only claim to notability was a documentary about him that won an award, then I would reject him right away, I suspect you would too. 2. DeadCenter is a Americentric insitution. It doesn't represent the whole film industry like the Oscars, Baftas, Canadian Film Awards, It doesn't show that he is notable outside the US. 3. If Gottfried is notable in Japan, then I would expect an award or two from Japan, like from the Japan Academy Film Prize. I would expect Gottfried to win Best Voice in a Japaneese awards ceremony as the Aflec Duck. 4. As for Eberfest, I said this already, Eberfest is a national film festival that does not have notability itself worldwide. It's not the Oscars. It's not the Baftas. It's not Cannes. 73.12.209.248 (talk) 03:23, 19 April 2022 (UTC) EbertFest in international as it covered movies from Japan, Iran, Spain, Italy, etc. It covers global movies. CountingStars500 (talk) 17:17, 19 April 2022 (UTC) The EbertFest doesn't have notability worldwide? What about the winners from the following places? France, Sweden, Japan, Russia, Netherlands, Egypt, Greece, United Kingdom, Spain, Mexico, Germany, Iran, India, Canada, Senegal, South Africa, Italy. Are all of them American states now? EmilyPhillipson (talk) 23:09, 19 April 2022 (UTC) And South Korea. Also, if someone has to be presented an award to be considered notable in any field that would remove a significant amounts of world-wide known businesspeople, politicians, authors, comedians, actors. Not all categories have awards, that's a BS standard to go by. CountingStars500 (talk) 23:15, 19 April 2022 (UTC) When rebutting an argument it's important to rebut what's actually being said or else you're guilty of using a Strawman Argument. Which you are, as nobody argued that Sidney Poitier wasn't notable. The argument was the international EbertFest was being dedicated to both in 2022. The creator of the EbertFest is Roger Ebert a world renowned film reviewer/critic. So, your "rebuttal" isn't a rebuttal since it's a strawman. EmilyPhillipson (talk) 01:42, 19 April 2022 (UTC) That's a illogical appeal to authority. Just because Robert Ebert started the Eberfest, does not make it internationally notable. Any National Film Festival can choose to honor a famous person. But Fame does not equal notability. William Hurt is less famous than Gottfried, Poitier, and Betty White, but he is just as notable as Poitier and White, and signifitcantly more notable than Gottfried. 73.12.209.248 (talk) 03:27, 19 April 2022 (UTC) Hold on for a sec "As for the International Film dedication, Just because one has a dedication, doesn't make them internationally notable, so you have to try something else." The EbertFest doesn't just dedicate their film festical to random people. This year it's dedicated to Sidney Poitier and Gilbert Gottfried, but 2023 it could be dedicated to a random grandma in say Kentucky? NO, they only dedicate it to people who are internationally notable in the entertainment industry. So, many notable people worth of Film festival dedications yes including William Hurt, Betty White, etc. But instead they chose this random low-level guy named Gilbert? If 2023 is dedicated to a random person off the street then you have a point, not until then. CountingStars500 (talk) 02:46, 19 April 2022 (UTC) I never said Gilbert wasn't famous. He is famous. But he's not notable. Fame does not equal notability. I agree with Jim, and Scrubby. He's not notable for inclusion here. And Once again, this is coming from a guy who is fan of his work. But he's not notable enough for the main list. Especially, if we compare him to Poitier, Betty White, If he is as notable as you say he is, then he should have awards from the Emmys, Oscars, Baftas, Cannes, because these are international film/tv organizations, and they signify international notability. ( And yes, Norm Macdonald should be removed as well ). 73.12.209.248 (talk) 03:31, 19 April 2022 (UTC) Based on the dictionary definition notable MEANS famous. You can't just say "I never said X but he wasn't X" while replacing it with a synonym. I'm going off international obituaries who are mentioning Gottfried's contributions in their respective countries. So, the saying he was only notable (i.e. Famous) in the United States is incorrect. CountingStars500 (talk) 14:18, 19 April 2022 (UTC) But if we go off the definition of famous, then we would have to include almost every US Celebrity and exclude everyone else. https://en.wiki.x.io/wiki/Renate_Reinsve This person. Is she less famous than Gottfried ? Yeah sure. By that measure, if she were to die right now, we would not include her, and to me that's a bunch of phooey. But she has won the Cannes Film Award, that makes her notable. 73.12.209.248 (talk) 15:27, 19 April 2022 (UTC) Of course she'd be added she has international contributions. Instead of strawmanning how about you respond to what I said? International obituaries are covering Gottfried's contributions in their respective countries (Japan, United Kingtom, Canada, etc). An international film festival is being dedicated to Gottfried and Poitier; Why Gottfried if he's not internationally notable and covered in the international press? For Pete's sake Betty White died on December 31, 2021, EbertFest could of chose her. Gottfried was NOT an Americentric figure, based on international contributions in obituaries. Argue based on what's being said. CountingStars500 (talk) 15:35, 19 April 2022 (UTC) I wasn't straw manning. If I was, I apologize. Actually, Should I apologize ? I don't think I was avoiding the topic. My point was that the reason why Gottfried is being covered, is because American Celebrities have more star power due to the Powerful hold America has on Media, that makes him Americentric. That person I shared the link of, would not get a quarter of the coverage Gottfried has now because she's not from the US. Gottfried therefore is being covered in the international press because he is from the US, and the US has a stronger cultural/media hold than most countries. 73.12.209.248 (talk) 15:57, 19 April 2022 (UTC) My point is that the international media is covering Gottfried's individual contributions in those specific countries. Key words: THEIR countries. CountingStars500 (talk) 17:18, 19 April 2022 (UTC) Strawmanning doesn't mean your "avoiding the topic" it means you're misrepresenting the topic in order to seem like you're actually destroying the argument Example: Scientist: We descended from a common ancestor with monkeys. Strawman: If we came from monkeys why are there still monkeys? Scientist: I never said we came from monkeys! That's a Strawman! CountingStars500 (talk) 23:29, 19 April 2022 (UTC) Awards such as the Oscars are determined by a small group of people; there's a disconnect between box-office success via public perceptions of movies and who the winners are. Not the best metric of notability. Name recognition internationally is and contributions internationally. How come countries are doing tributes to Gottfried if "they never heard of him because he's American"? EmilyPhillipson (talk) 23:04, 19 April 2022 (UTC) Comment It'd be really good if some of the people who are spending all of their Wikipedia editing time on this trivial argument would go and do something useful with the encyclopedia instead. WP:NOTHERE is genuinely a thing. Black Kite (talk) 17:53, 20 April 2022 (UTC) What makes Gottfried as notable as Sidney Poitier, Olympia Dukakis, or even Betty White? I don't see how he is notable. I just don't. And this isn't me being hard headed or anything. I just don't see it. User:73.12.209.248 (talk) 01:45, April 2022 (UTC) Of those, Poitier is by far the most notable, followed by Dukakis, then White, then Gottfried. Poitier is easily notable enough for main year articles; Dukakis & White are borderline. Gottfried isn't internationally notable enough. Jim Michael (talk) 10:49, 19 April 2022 (UTC) I agree Poitier is the most notable, his career spans acting and ambassadorships, he’s followed by Betty White. Tossup between Dukakis and Gottfried but I’ll put Dukakis ahead. Gottfried’s international obituaries are mentioning his contributions in respective countries such as awards. International film festivals are honouring Gottfried. It is true though that out of those options given Gottfried is the least notable. However, he is notable based on his international obituaries. I know Jim Michael will use his go-to “international publications aren’t evidence of notability”. I counter that with 1) they’re expressing his contributions too the specific countries and 2) non-notables don’t get international obituaries not even most American celebrities. Liam Davenport (talk) 00:47, 20 April 2022 (UTC) Olympia Dukakis being an Oscar recipient easily puts her above Betty White. Gottfried has the least notability of the four by some distance, and as has been said before his inclusion would be an aberration given that we have excluded entertainment figures with comparable levels of notability to him. TheScrubby (talk) 01:25, 20 April 2022 (UTC) Going off Gottfried's international obituaries they express how he was notable in those specific countries. CountingStars500 (talk) 01:31, 20 April 2022 (UTC) Considering that the Oscars are determined by a small group of Delegates and box-office successes has no bearing on who wins it cannot make a person internationally notable. Dukakis will get the "Who?" reaction internationally, Gottfried had international contributions and dedications. EmilyPhillipson (talk) 01:35, 20 April 2022 (UTC) @EmilyPhillipson Well I don't fully agree, box-office success could factor into the delegates choices. But, overall it's not based on reviews of the general public globally. I agree with TheScrubby partially, but it is a flawed metric to purely go by. CountingStars500 (talk) 01:40, 20 April 2022 (UTC) How can he not be notable and have international praise for his work in comedy? Up to the point of a co-dedication with Sidney Poitier of Film Festivals. Now, I'm not saying Gottfried is more notable than Poitier that would be foolish on my part to suggest. But, out of all global celebrities that died within say since December 2021 to the present day they choose Gottfried as being notable enough. These are high ranking Film festivals. So, based on international acclaim in the news and entertainment industry he seemed quite notable. So, I don't see how it would be an aberration? CountingStars500 (talk) 02:01, 20 April 2022 (UTC) I'm not sure how to parse "Up to the point of a co-dedication with Sidney Poitier of Film Festivals" , are you referring to Ebertfest? Which is a US domestic film festival arranged by the local university, which Gottfried only gets a shared 'dedication'? Ebertfest 2022 Announces Complete Lineup, Will Be Dedicated to Sidney Poitier and Gilbert Gottfried | Festivals & Awards | Roger Ebert, it's not evidence of international significance. It was probably dedicated partly to him because he was due to be a special guest at the festival this year. The fact this is the best we can come up with is probably proof that he lacks international significance JeffUK (talk) 15:04, 20 April 2022 (UTC) The Ebertfest is international has it covered movies from Africa (Senegal, South Africa), Russia, United Kingdom, Netherlands, China, South Korea, Spain, Mexico, Canada, and that’s just a few. It’s not domestic. Liam Davenport (talk) 16:52, 20 April 2022 (UTC) The following are now US states? France, Sweden, Japan, Russia, Netherlands, Egypt, Greece, United Kingdom, Spain, Mexico, Germany, Iran, India, Canada, Senegal, South Africa, Italy. All those places had directors, and actor/actresses that were won and were honoured at the Ebertfest. But what were you saying about it being domestic? CountingStars500 (talk) 16:57, 20 April 2022 (UTC) The EbertFest does more than American movies, I don't know where you got that idea that it was domestic movies. It honours movies on every continent (except obviously Antarctica). But, as you pointed out: "It was probably dedicated partly to him because he was due to be a special guest at the festival this year", why would an International film festival dedicate their event to a low-level local standup comedian much less as an honored guest if he didn't die, do they go through random obituaries? He's not low level, as his international obituaries are describing about his contributions. EmilyPhillipson (talk) 21:17, 20 April 2022 (UTC) No-one's claiming that GG was low-level or local. However, his international notability isn't high enough for main year articles. I questioned White's inclusion soon after her death. I've started a new section on Talk:2021 about Dukakis & Macdonald. Jim Michael (talk) 09:06, 21 April 2022 (UTC) International notability is the most arbitrary "standard" there is. I'm not merely talking about deaths but events in general. It can be argued ALL events are domestic, should all events be excluded because there's no truly international event? In regards to deaths on a spectrum from 0 to 10; 0 being purely domestic to 10 being completely international where is the inclusion line? It's like saying "how many pebbles constitutes a pile of pebbles?". Oscars, Emmys, etc are determined by a small group of delegates, a celebrity can win no awards but have a significant impact on multiple countries. It's not black or white international notability has a lot of gradation. Liam Davenport (talk) 14:10, 21 April 2022 (UTC) It makes sense that substantial international notability is the inclusion bar for main year articles. The level of international notability required isn't clearly defined, which is why we have disagreements & discussions over some people (especially entertainers & sportspeople) as well as events. Some events are clearly important & international, such as Tropical Storm Ana. Some people clearly have substantial international notability, such as Sidney Poitier. Jim Michael (talk) 15:04, 21 April 2022 (UTC) 1.) Tropical Storm Ana only covered 3 countries Madagascar, Malawi and Mozambique it's geographic specific. 2.) I never denied that Sidney Poitier wasn't notable, he was and his career spanned acting and ambassadorships. But, you passed over my point spectrum from 0 to 10. I put Poitier at a 8.9/10 and Gottfried at a 6/10. Many of the people you accepted and or outwardly advocated are a 3 or 4 out of 10. Liam Davenport (talk) 15:18, 21 April 2022 (UTC) There's a scale of international notability, but I can't think of any entertainers whom I've added or said I'm in favour of including who have less international notability than GG. There's still a lot of disagreement about sportspeople. There's less disagreement about politicians, because heads of state/gov are usually included. About 99% of other politicians are clearly domestic. Jim Michael (talk) 17:20, 21 April 2022 (UTC) The claim that Gottfried only did stand-up and movies in the United States is wrong. He had international accolades. Granted Poitier is much more notable as I said 8.9/10 and Gottfried at a 6/10. Explain how stub articles are notable? Liam Davenport (talk) 17:27, 21 April 2022 (UTC) Some examples from 2021: - https://en.wiki.x.io/wiki/Nathalie_Delon - https://en.wiki.x.io/wiki/Gunnel_Lindblom - https://en.wiki.x.io/wiki/Yaphet_Kotto I rank the above between 3 and 4.9 maybe 5. Now, I'm not advocating removing them because I don't think they are not notable enough, but Gottfried was an internationally known name with known roles he's a 6/10. Liam Davenport (talk) 17:43, 21 April 2022 (UTC) Working in more than one country isn't enough to include an entertainer; many thousands do. Stub articles aren't excluded. Delon, Lindblom & Kotto should be excluded. Jim Michael (talk) 17:48, 21 April 2022 (UTC) Working in other countries was used as a reasoning countless times to include people, and it makes sense. If you take your "someone must be awarded the highest honour in the industry logic" would mean that Stephen Hawking would need to be removed because he never won the Nobel Prize in Science, but removing Hawking is idiotic. Stub articles SHOULD be excluded (unless expanded with relevant info). Liam Davenport (talk) 17:53, 21 April 2022 (UTC) Receiving major awards in multiple countries is often given as a reason to include. Stubs that are included are usually of heads of state/gov of little-known countries & of Olympic gold medallists. Jim Michael (talk) 18:00, 21 April 2022 (UTC) How come you limit "Notableness" to FIFA/Olympians pre-1980s, Classical musicians, actors who were low level,and acting/briefly serving government officials? EmilyPhillipson (talk) 18:09, 21 April 2022 (UTC) I've noticed that too, usually someone who spent a few months in office, and classical musicians. Maybe Jim Michael is a classical music fan?, Nothing wrong with that. Gottfried was one of the top sought out comedians but Jim Michael doesn't consider him notable even though many sources say he is. Liam Davenport (talk) 18:12, 21 April 2022 (UTC) Classical Musicians ? Are you talking about Harrison Birtwistle ? Birtwistle has awards from the US, UK, France, and Germany. That makes him notable. Like wise, if Yo Yo Ma were to unforunately pass away now, he would be included because of his awards from many countries. 130.86.97.41 (talk) 20:43, 21 April 2022 (UTC) I agree that Yo Yo Ma will get inclusion, I also agree with the inclusion of Harrison Birtwistle; that's not who I was actually thinking of. I was thinking of past cases in prior years. Liam Davenport (talk) 23:47, 21 April 2022 (UTC) "Receiving major awards in multiple countries is often given as a reason to include." Interesting, so why do you say Gilbert Gottfried isn't notable? CountingStars500 (talk) 18:20, 21 April 2022 (UTC) I agree that Science awards express notability to scientists such as Sidney Altman or Stephen Hawking. However, Entertainment awards are a little iffy, they're chosen based on how a select number of delegates wants. Box office success could play a role but not necessarily. But, if you consider entertainment awards notable Gilbert Gottfried won ensemble an award (CINEeagle) awards and CableAce and comedy awards/nominations DeadCenter and Daytime Emmy, plus dedication to international film festivals. Liam Davenport (talk) 18:32, 21 April 2022 (UTC) I haven't spoken in favour of acting leaders; I've said they're borderline. I don't recall any classical musicians whom I've added or been in favour of including. I don't discriminate in regard to sportspeople based on when were active; it's based on achievements. None of GG's individual awards are major. Jim Michael (talk) 19:00, 21 April 2022 (UTC) If an acting leader made major policy decision they should be included apart from that no."None of GG's individual awards are major." Why do you assume that? Because they were Canadian? Or, that they weren't decided by out of touch delegates like the Oscars? Nominations themselves are hard to get and he got a Daytime Emmy nomination. Anyways what about those domestic awards of European actors/actress you accept on the main year page upon their deaths? Liam Davenport (talk) 19:15, 21 April 2022 (UTC) What European Actors/Actresses has Jim accepted with domestic awards ? 130.86.97.41 (talk) 20:36, 21 April 2022 (UTC) I made a list a few comments above. Liam Davenport (talk) 21:23, 21 April 2022 (UTC) Those three actors/actresses I don't think Jim has promoted inclusion for so it's disingeous to say that he has accepted them. 130.86.97.41 (talk) 21:59, 21 April 2022 (UTC) They're still on the page and he never removed or brought them up in the 2021 Talk page. That's promoting. Liam Davenport (talk) 23:11, 21 April 2022 (UTC) Not removing them isn't promoting them. Jim Michael (talk) 10:07, 22 April 2022 (UTC) Stephen Hawking by the way received the Presidential Medal of Freedom from the US which shows his international notability. 130.86.97.41 (talk) 20:39, 21 April 2022 (UTC) Yes, Stephen Hawking was awarded the Presidential Medal of Freedom same day that Sidney Poitier was awarded. I'm not saying Hawking wasn't notable. 100% Notable. What I'm saying is he would be notable with or without the Presidential Medal of Freedom or any awards. The awards in and of themselves doesn't make him or anyone notable. His notableness led him to getting it. Liam Davenport (talk) 21:20, 21 April 2022 (UTC) I'm a big fan of the work of Stephen Hawking but insisting he's notable because he won an award is BS. He's notable because of his work in physics and cosmology and advancing science. He got an award because he was ALREADY notable. If he didn't get it he would still be notable. Awards ≠ Notability Notability = Awards CountingStars500 (talk) 23:02, 21 April 2022 (UTC) Yeah, just for the record being awarded the Presidential Medal of Freedom means nothing outside America; it’s about as Americentric an award as you can get. It’s not, and has never been, a bar for inclusion here - unless we wanted to make equivalent awards for any other country fair game. Hawking was obviously a very internationally notable figure in any case, which we all clearly agree on. TheScrubby (talk) 23:22, 21 April 2022 (UTC) @TheScrubby I agree with you. If it was criteria for inclusion Rush Limbaugh would be internationally notable and included. Liam Davenport (talk) 23:40, 21 April 2022 (UTC) What the hell. I re-added Gottfried then @CountingStars500 removed him again. I thought you favoured Gottfried's inclusion? What's going on? -Liam Davenport (talk) — Preceding undated comment added 03:48, 22 April 2022 (UTC) I still support Gottfried's inclusion due to his international contributions. However, I removed him again because I want to get to the bottom of why people are confused about his contributions internationally in the comedy sphere. He's notable, but people don't realize. Just want to get to the bottom of the confusion. He can't stay up in the interim. CountingStars500 (talk) 03:59, 22 April 2022 (UTC) I don't think people are confused. I think they're working backwards from a conclusion. It seems like they don't want comedians included generally. The international media are covering his contributions to their respective countries; international comedians are expressing his trailblazing efforts that led more people into the industry. And his 2 wins and 1 nomination for Cyberchase, a show that is Canadian, an international film festival dedication, and the list goes on. Liam Davenport (talk) 04:23, 22 April 2022 (UTC) Being in the comedy field doesn't make a person disfavoured here, nor less notable. Some critics view comedy as inherently inferior to drama, but I don't. Jim Michael (talk) 10:07, 22 April 2022 (UTC) Then why shouldn’t Gottfried be included. He was high up on well-known comedians internationally. He also has the international accolades. Are all the countries and entertainers the confused ones who are honouring Gottfried? He has done more than Iago and he’s standup wasn’t NYC exclusive, that would make him not internationally notable, but he is internationally notable and recognized. Liam Davenport (talk) 16:57, 22 April 2022 (UTC) What's the likelihood of Gottfried being included in the "In Memoriam" segment of award shows and festivals? It's close to 100%, already happened at the Ebertfest. Notable names in the comedy world attended his funeral such as Sarah Silverman who look a picture with Lily at the service. Gottfried was in a Canadian TV show (longest role; 2002-2022) and a British Canadian movie. He's a trailblazer in the industry. CountingStars500 (talk) 17:14, 22 April 2022 (UTC) Millions of people have worked in multiple countries, including thousands of entertainers. He didn't win major awards. Who's at a funeral or memorial doesn't denote high international notability. Why are you both intensely focused on GG, to the exclusion of everything else? Single-purpose accounts are discouraged. Jim Michael (talk) 18:07, 22 April 2022 (UTC) Why do you assume I'm exclusively focused on GG? I'm very diverse in what I do on Wikipedia. Many times it's politics related. However, I do want to clear the record on erroneous assumptions you made in regards to GG. He did win major awards and the international media is covering his international contributions. Regardless, awards don't make someone notable, they are delegate selected, not based on box office success. CountingStars500 (talk) 18:42, 22 April 2022 (UTC) It's not an assumption; all your last 50 edits are about GG. Awards are given a lot of weight, especially if they're major awards from multiple countries. Jim Michael (talk) 18:51, 22 April 2022 (UTC) I simply want to clear the record on GG. He DID win a Canadian award for Cyberchase with American, British, and Canadian Awards. According to you someone could find a cure for cancer, but not win any awards and they won't be notable. See how silly that sounds? CountingStars500 (talk) 18:58, 22 April 2022 (UTC) Not to mention that it DOES say it on his Wiki-bio. Click on 6.2 and scroll down to Cyberchase, the last row with the notes. CountingStars500 (talk) 19:01, 22 April 2022 (UTC) I checked and it does say it: Daytime Emmy [Nominee] Outstanding New Approaches - Daytime Children's Daytime Emmy Awards 2007 EmilyPhillipson (talk) 22:58, 22 April 2022 (UTC) The awards he won weren't major. Jim Michael (talk) 09:27, 23 April 2022 (UTC) He won major international awards. You can diminish his career all you like, but you're still incorrect. CountingStars500 (talk) 17:31, 23 April 2022 (UTC) Why do they include him here if he's not notable? https://www.emmys.com/in-memoriam Liam Davenport (talk) 01:18, 24 April 2022 (UTC) That means nothing though. The overwhelming majority of the figures included in that link would in no way meet the bar for inclusion here, and the Emmy Awards are far more Americentric than say, the Oscars. TheScrubby (talk) 05:03, 24 April 2022 (UTC) The Oscars are quite Americentric also. But, if you want an internationally based award Life, Animated was honoured at the BAFTAs. Liam Davenport (talk) 12:23, 24 April 2022 (UTC) Also, if you think I'm being Americentric I'm not. When O Yeong-su dies I will fight for his inclusion. He's not American, but he's quite notable. Liam Davenport (talk) 12:43, 24 April 2022 (UTC) Well he did win a Golden Globe which shows notability outside of Korea. 73.12.209.248 (talk) 20:53, 27 April 2022 (UTC) GG seems not to have done much outside the US. It's clear from some of the Wikipedias where he has stub articles that someone (the anon who began the one in Cymraeg is blocked) has been promoting him, in the widest sense, for the last ten years, and I would like to understand who and why. Editors sometimes do this to make their favourite celebrity appear internationally known when they are not, and it's not to be encouraged. Deb (talk) 15:37, 26 April 2022 (UTC) He did do quite a bit outside the US; his longest role (2002-2022) was not American. He was also honoured at international film festivals. CountingStars500 (talk) 01:13, 27 April 2022 (UTC)

Taylor Hawkins (Result: inclusion)

Hawkins has no individual international notability, a bar by which we've excluded several other band members who've died in the 2020s. Without that limitation, a huge number would be included in main year articles. Many bands have a large number of members over their existence; double figures isn't rare. Amount of media coverage & number of fans aren't reliable measures of notability. He's never included in lists of best musicians, or even best rock musicians. No-one other than Foo Fighters' fans would claim him to have been among the greats. Second-most important member of a RRHOF band doesn't count for much. It's an Americentric hall of fame whose nominees are decided by a small number of people who aren't musicians, so it shouldn't be used an inclusion bar. Jim Michael (talk) 22:59, 26 March 2022 (UTC)

I don’t know how many times it has to be said, as has been said here, but “individual international notability” for members of internationally notable bands is not a criteria we use, or ought to use. The Foo Fighters have been among the most internationally notable bands of the last 25 years, and it would be ridiculous to exclude the most important members, in this case someone who was recognised as the most notable and significant member after Dave Grohl. As for your point about the RRHOF, it’s used as a secondary criteria rather than a primary one for reasons such as those you have outlined, but it nevertheless remains recognised as the highest indicator of notability, significance and success for rock musicians - from America or otherwise. Strongly oppose any move to exclude Hawkins. TheScrubby (talk) 23:24, 26 March 2022 (UTC)

What do you recommend as the inclusion bar for band members? Jim Michael (talk) 08:55, 27 March 2022 (UTC)

I have already made my recommendation, which is that they should be included if the band is internationally notable and they played an essential, central role in the band achieving said notability (be it in helping shaping shape the sound, or by simply being a member of the founding and/or classic line-ups of the band). Which is why using the RRHOF can sometimes be a good secondary criteria as in the majority (albeit there are exceptions, as I’ve detailed before on this talk page) of inductions they only induct the core members while excluding members of lesser significance (typically members who joined later on, after the band’s main period of notability and relevance). A lot of the time it does come down to it being case by case, but in cases like Hawkins it should be a pretty clear cut, uncontroversial case in favour of inclusion. While someone like, for example, Franz Stahl (to use another Foo Fighters example) should be a pretty clear cut, uncontroversial case where we would exclude and relegate to Year In Topic. TheScrubby (talk) 14:00, 27 March 2022 (UTC)

Sustained and in-depth international coverage, as we would do for anything else. Black Kite (talk) 12:39, 27 March 2022 (UTC)

Using that as the bar means that we'd include some people who are merely popular rather than internationally notable, including reality show contestants, socialites, models, people who have a cult following & those who are famous for being famous. If Gene Hackman & Kim Kardashian were to die on the same day, the latter would receive far more media coverage. Jim Michael (talk) 15:02, 27 March 2022 (UTC)

I certainly can't think of any "reality show contestants, socialites or models" that we would post unless they'd become internationally notable for another reason. In the end we have to accept that (a) popular and internationally notable are not mutually exclusive, and (b) any rule we make will almost certainly have exceptions and therefore we need to depend on the breadth and depth of coverage n the media. Black Kite (talk) 15:31, 27 March 2022 (UTC)

I think the global (and it is global, literally) front-page coverage of Hawkins' death (it's still on the front page of the BBC website, O Globo, Süddeutsche Zeitung, the NYT etc. 24 hours later) is a pretty good indicator of the notability we're dealing with here. Black Kite (talk) 00:41, 27 March 2022 (UTC)

I doubt the coverage of his death is global; I guess it's the Americas, Europe, Australia & NZ. No-one's disputing that the band have substantial international notability, but he doesn't. The high level of media coverage is because it's a type of story that the media love. A rock musician intoxicated by various substances dies suddenly, whilst abroad, in his hotel room, during a tour. Dying naturally in old age, years after retiring, would not have given him a tenth of that media coverage. The over-representation of entertainers & sportspeople in main year articles is fan-driven & biased, which is why we need clear inclusion criteria for them. Jim Michael (talk) 08:55, 27 March 2022 (UTC)

To be fair, "The Americas, Europe, Australia and NZ" is half the globe to begin with, but the story is still rumbling on well over 24 hours later (due to the medical analysis) in South Africa, India, The Philippines and so forth. Black Kite (talk) 12:39, 27 March 2022 (UTC)

Is the coverage due more to his early demise and the way he died ?

Let’s assume that Hawkins was instead 80 years and died peacefully in his sleep. Would the coverage be the same because of his notability ? Jojoju1998 (talk) 20:27, 27 March 2022 (UTC)

• Support inclusion Pretty notable and his death is gaining international coverage. Foo Fighters is classified as a vital article at Wiki so that means there's some influential-merit to the band henceforth Hawkins for being part of this influential band. --TDKR Chicago 101 (talk) 16:34, 27 March 2022 (UTC)
• Strongly support inclusion The whole world is talking about his death. He clearly deserves a mention for 2022. I am continually amazed by some of the unbelievably strict and inflexible editors on here, who seem to get some sort of psychological kick out of deleting everything. Wjfox2005 (talk) 17:00, 27 March 2022 (UTC)

  Okay. 1. If Ringo Starr were to die right now, would he be included because of his association with the Beatles ? Or his own individual notability ( which is quite high, higher than Hawkins) ?

  2. International Coverage does not equal International notability or else we would have had Bob Saget on the list ( which almost everyone rejected ).

  3. At what level and point does a band’s collective notability help boost a band member’s individual notability? Or vice versa ? Was Taylor Hawkins a crucial member of the Band he was in ? The band leader ? The most important part of the piece ? I don’t know. I’m not a rock expert. Jojoju1998 (talk) 20:24, 27 March 2022 (UTC)

  • We posted Neil Peart a short while back, a death which didn't get anything like the international coverage, so I don't believe this is anything out of the ordinary. We would of course post Ringo Starr, in the same way as we posted Charlie Watts last year. Black Kite (talk) 20:35, 27 March 2022 (UTC)

    Sure. But would we include Starr because of his Beatles affiliation or his own career ? Jojoju1998 (talk) 20:42, 27 March 2022 (UTC)

    Also Neil Pearlt died of natural causes ( from a Brain tumor ) which doesn't garner alot of attention.

    For Hawkins's case, it seems as if the coverage is because of the way he died, not his notability neccsarily. And he died in another country. 2601:204:CF80:7440:6041:FEF1:9456:6015 (talk) 20:50, 27 March 2022 (UTC)

    I should add that I am " Jojoju1998". 2601:204:CF80:7440:6041:FEF1:9456:6015 (talk) 20:51, 27 March 2022 (UTC)

    Yes, the circumstances of his death have greatly increased the level & length of the reporting of it. He's far less notable than Watts, whose death received far less media coverage. The coverage of Hawkins' death is mostly about the specifics of it, rather than his greatness, talent etc. Most of this section makes it seem like he was a household name. Even if he was, that wouldn't qualify him. Mention his name in a year's time to people other than Foo Fighters' fans & people with an intense interest in rock music & most won't know who you're talking about. Jim Michael (talk) 21:47, 27 March 2022 (UTC)

    I'm pretty sure we can't use "most people won't have heard of him/her" as a metric, because that applies to the majority of the people on the Deaths list. Black Kite (talk) 22:01, 27 March 2022 (UTC)

    A lot of this discussion and the arguments made by Jim Michael and Jojoju comes from the assumption that individual international notability for band members is a set criteria, which as I’ve expressed multiple times through is a deeply problematic criteria proposal that would exclude far too many musicians who were an important part of their band. Media coverage or the manner of passing are not why Hawkins should be included either. When it comes down to it, Hawkins was a very long-serving, integral member of the Foo Fighters - one of the most internationally notable bands of the last quarter century - and the most recognised and prominent member after Grohl; he was a member of the band’s classic line-ups, and as such was inducted as part of them into the RRHOF (if he wasn’t an integral member of the band, they wouldn’t have inducted him with them). All of this is enough to get him over the line, and the imposition of an absurd “individual international notability for band members” criteria would exclude too many vital and important musicians whose notability were absolutely intertwined with the bands they became famous with. Excluding anyone on that basis would potentially leave out and/or significantly under-represent to a farcical degree key members of a great many internationally notable bands/groups. TheScrubby (talk) 22:16, 27 March 2022 (UTC)

I have different question relating to what you said earlier, Jim Michael. If this is the English language Wikipedia, does that mean anybody well-known enough in the English-speaking world can be included? Must they be known in nations where English is a secondary or foreign language? The Voivodeship King (talk) 20:22, 1 April 2022 (UTC)

Being well-known isn't the inclusion bar, because many people are well-known but don't have much notability. If they have significant international notability, it doesn't matter which parts of the world they are from, are well-known in or have notability in. However, they must have an article in English. We include Mexican entertainer Vicente Fernández, whose notability & fans are mostly in Latin America. Jim Michael (talk) 08:51, 2 April 2022 (UTC)

Thanks for clearing this up. The Voivodeship King (talk) 11:44, 5 April 2022 (UTC)

Full context

Turns out that at least three of the people making the same argument here were in reality just a single person.

Shouldn't editors know the full context of those who dies career? Because this is clearly not being done on this page. The totality of people's careers are being ignored thereby calling them "not notable". This should change, people should look into outside sources instead of jump reactions. CountingStars500 (talk) 21:21, 25 April 2022 (UTC) I've noticed that too. It is important to know the background of someone in their entirely before deeming someone notable or not notable. Suggestions on how this could be done? Liam Davenport (talk) 23:14, 25 April 2022 (UTC) I agree with your statement, we need to fix this problem. this problem is caused by people just relying on the Wikipedia pages and not going and investigating other Pages like IMDb or other wikis. 4me689 (talk) 02:07, 26 April 2022 (UTC) It's not reasonable to expect the regulars to research each person on many sites before deciding whether or not they're internationally notable enough to be included in the Births & Deaths sections of main year articles. Their articles should clearly state their notability, including positions held, awards won, international participation etc. - backed by RS. The fans who want to include them could do more to improve those articles. Main year articles need more editors who are here regularly & frequently; most editors of them are only here to add one particular person or event. Jim Michael (talk) 09:07, 26 April 2022 (UTC) There's been quite a few times when you (and others) deemed someone "not notable" and when I look the person up on Google a plethora of international contributions come up. Not only that, many times it's already stated on their Wiki-bios (which you didn't catch?). Regardless, it's lazy thinking to rely purely on Wiki-bios to determine notability. Full context is important. CountingStars500 (talk) 12:47, 26 April 2022 (UTC) I haven't said they're not notable; I said they're not (sufficiently) internationally notable. The onus is on those who want to include various people. Portraying minor awards as major, nominations as awards etc. isn't going to work. Jim Michael (talk) 14:07, 26 April 2022 (UTC) Gottfried was honoured at the BAFTA (Life, Animated) and he won major awards in Canada. Now international awards that are major are minor because they're not American? Kind of Americentric. CountingStars500 (talk) 14:22, 26 April 2022 (UTC) What do you mean by honoured by BAFTA? He didn't win any BAFTAs. If you mean someone mentioned him there, that means nothing. Jim Michael (talk) 14:41, 26 April 2022 (UTC) There was a BAFTA viewing and Q&A for Life, Animated. CountingStars500 (talk) 15:02, 26 April 2022 (UTC) First on the list: https://www.bafta.org/search/bafta/Gilbert%2520Gottfried CountingStars500 (talk) 15:46, 26 April 2022 (UTC) That's nothing like winning a BAFTA. Jim Michael (talk) 15:54, 26 April 2022 (UTC) I never said he won a BAFTA, I said he was honoured at the BAFTAs, you insisted he was never at. He won a CINEeagle in Canada. He is also an acclaimed podcaster interviewing celebrities in the acting world. CountingStars500 (talk) 15:58, 26 April 2022 (UTC) I didn't say he was never at the BAFTAs; I said he didn't win any. Jim Michael (talk) 16:44, 26 April 2022 (UTC) You insisted he was never internationally recognized. Now you're backtracking. CountingStars500 (talk) 17:54, 26 April 2022 (UTC) No, I said he has insufficient international notability. Jim Michael (talk) 18:34, 26 April 2022 (UTC) Well, he was notable enough to attend BAFTA, he was invited. However, he was one of the highest ranking comedians globally. CountingStars500 (talk) 21:39, 26 April 2022 (UTC) In regards to Gottfried he has won major international awards and honours. Besides, why are awards given so much weight anyways since they're chosen by a small group? You need to factor in all international contributions. Liam Davenport (talk) 14:29, 26 April 2022 (UTC) He didn't win major awards. Jim Michael (talk) 14:42, 26 April 2022 (UTC) He did. Anyways, why are you skipping this: "Besides, why are awards given so much weight anyways since they're chosen by a small group?" You have no rebuttal, because awards does not mean notability. They mean that a few people who runs the awards personally like them. Liam Davenport (talk) 15:12, 26 April 2022 (UTC) But awards SHOW notability. Or else, you would open up a can of worms. Regarding the Baftas, almost everyone who worked in the British film industry was honored, doesn't mean they are notable. 73.12.209.248 (talk) 20:50, 27 April 2022 (UTC) Stub pages aren't notable; by definition they can't be. Not enough information to present about their contributions.EmilyPhillipson (talk) 14:37, 26 April 2022 (UTC) Not true - they could include individual Olympic golds or a term as head of state/gov. Jim Michael (talk) 14:42, 26 April 2022 (UTC) Gold Medal olympians should have their pages expanded, and then should be included. Heads of state and/or government should be included but not acting ones (unless clear policy events occurred during their time in office). EmilyPhillipson (talk) 15:00, 26 April 2022 (UTC) We don't exclude people whose articles are stubs. Jim Michael (talk) 16:44, 26 April 2022 (UTC) This is not the place for arguing about the conduct of other editors; suggest you review WP:DR if you have specific issues with the content you think would merit wider discussion JeffUK (talk) 14:14, 26 April 2022 (UTC) Dispute resolutions have been tried countless times; it doesn't help when people are set in their ways. CountingStars500 (talk) 14:20, 26 April 2022 (UTC) People being set in their ways isn't the issue. Fans coming here to add one person or event is. Jim Michael (talk) 14:44, 26 April 2022 (UTC) People advocating for Gottfried's inclusions aren't necessarily fans; they simply see the evidence of his international notability. He opened the floodgates leading to the careers of countless comedians globally. Are all these comedians tributing Gottfried just a bunch of confused people? Whose going to say any minute now "Wait?, whose this Gottfried guy? was I drunk?" CountingStars500 (talk) 15:06, 26 April 2022 (UTC) It's clear this is a 3rd section that's actually arguing for the inclusion of Gottfried; in what way has dispute resolution been tried on this specific issue? Did I miss it? JeffUK (talk) 16:49, 26 April 2022 (UTC) I made this a a general discussion to discuss peoples' full context in general. Jim Michael brought up the situation involving Gottfried. CountingStars500 (talk) 17:32, 26 April 2022 (UTC) It also wasn't me who initially brought up the first two Gottfried threads. CountingStars500 (talk) 17:53, 26 April 2022 (UTC) I wasn't the first to mention GG in any thread. Jim Michael (talk) 18:34, 26 April 2022 (UTC) I want to clarify; I'm aware you didn't initially bring Gottfried up in the initial two threads about him. What I meant is that your initial comment on this thread seemed like you were insinuating Gottfried: "It's not reasonable to expect the regulars to research each person on many sites before deciding whether or not they're internationally notable enough to be included in the Births & Deaths sections of main year articles. Their articles should clearly state their notability, including positions held, awards won, international participation etc. - backed by RS. The fans who want to include them could do more to improve those articles. Main year articles need more editors who are here regularly & frequently; most editors of them are only here to add one particular person or event." But, you very well could have been neutral by that statement, I might have read too much into it. I want to apologize to you for that Jim Michael. CountingStars500 (talk) 21:31, 26 April 2022 (UTC) I'm talking about the many cases of fans adding people - mostly entertainers & sportspeople - who have little or no international notability, to main year articles. This year, the 3 longest discussions on this talk page have been about Bob Saget, Scott Hall & GG. Jim Michael (talk) 11:31, 27 April 2022 (UTC) They're not necessarily fans though. Maybe, they know something about those individuals international notability. You could be humble admit that people research these things and just say you didn't know. CountingStars500 (talk) 15:23, 27 April 2022 (UTC) Personally, I've never of Scott Hall until he died. I decided to look into him, he does have international notability as it turns out. In regards to Bob Saget I agree with you Jim Michael it's not up to standard, but he's very close. However, Gottfried does have international acclaim, and is well known globally through standup, documentaries, and celebrity podcasting. You can't just isolate his career to NYC standup and Iago then ignore the rest his career; then claim "no international notability". I completely agree with avoiding the lists being Americentric, but now it seems that you don't want Americans period. GG's influence impacted the comedy world who knows where some modern-day comedians globally would be today without GG. Liam Davenport (talk) 15:41, 27 April 2022 (UTC) The non-regulars who persist in adding the same people are fans. I've been in favour of including & excluding people of various nationalities. Jim Michael (talk) 17:02, 27 April 2022 (UTC) No, they're not necessarily fans, some may be. Many though do a deep-dive research of the person's whole career rather than diminishing it (like you have). GG did more that just Iago and NYC exclusive standup. He was internationally acclaimed in the comedy world, he was honoured at the BAFTA (per the BAFTA link). Liam Davenport (talk) 17:54, 27 April 2022 (UTC) Fans are the only people who'd do deep-dive research. Honouring isn't an award. Jim Michael (talk) 18:38, 27 April 2022 (UTC) You refuse to do any research (a self admission). Being honoured while not an award in and of itself shows that he was acknowledged by BAFTA (something you denied he ever was, making your some argument crumble). Deep dive research shows whether someone is notable or not, you admitted to lazy thinking. Aside: This is neither here nor there but I read your comments in the voice of HAL-9000. You sound robotic. Liam Davenport (talk) 18:56, 27 April 2022 (UTC) I said he didn't win awards; being honoured is trivial; it carries no weight. None of the regulars are going to do deep-dive research at the request of persistent fans who have an inflated view of the people whom they're fans of. Jim Michael (talk) 19:06, 27 April 2022 (UTC) He has won Canadian awards and comedy awards. Regardless, it been continuously pointed out the questionable process that determines awards. You never gave a response. Care to? Liam Davenport (talk) 19:09, 27 April 2022 (UTC) So, you don’t care if sources contradict Wikipedia? You do realize that that’s a criticism of Wikipedia? It’s baffling that you don’t want to improve Wikipedia. Liam Davenport (talk) 19:17, 27 April 2022 (UTC) His awards aren't important enough. We often exclude people if their awards aren't important or are only from one country. If fans have relevant RS that improve WP articles, they're welcome to add them. Jim Michael (talk) 19:51, 27 April 2022 (UTC) You’re still refusing to answer the fact that the awards are determined by a select group. Why? I’m giving you every opportunity I rebut, but you don’t. You want to? Liam Davenport (talk) 19:56, 27 April 2022 (UTC) I have - we require people on main year articles to have won awards from different orgs. Jim Michael (talk) 20:00, 27 April 2022 (UTC) That doesn’t answer the question: All awards are determined by a small group, not based on box office success. GG was in the comedy world, one of the highest rated global comedians. It seems more and more like you don’t like comedians. Gottfried is an awardEd comedian. All comedians should be deleted based on the standard you set. Again, people who determine notable and not should be aware of the career FULLY not partially like you. Isolating his career to local NYC and then arguing based on that will obviously limit his global significance. But, I’m not going to do that. Liam Davenport (talk) 20:07, 27 April 2022 (UTC) Robin Williams would have stayed under Jim's standards. 73.12.209.248 (talk) 20:35, 27 April 2022 (UTC) Robin Williams while he was a comedian his career took on a predominate role in acting. I'm talking about exclusive comedians as a category of its own. Liam Davenport (talk) 20:54, 27 April 2022 (UTC) Williams was also called a " Comedian's Comedian", and is cited as one of the greatest comedians ever. So his career didn't predominate in film and acting. He did both. 73.12.209.248 (talk) 20:59, 27 April 2022 (UTC) Yes, Williams was also a Comedian's Comedian. But, my point is his career also included non-comedy Good Will Hunting for example was not a comedy. And guess what Williams and Gottfried collaborated together (not just in Aladdin). Both were ingrained in the entertainment industry and worked together. Liam Davenport (talk) 21:15, 27 April 2022 (UTC)

Players of team sports

What should be the level of international notability required for players of team sports? Playing for their national team? Scoring international goals? Winning important international competitions? Jim Michael (talk) 13:44, 31 March 2022 (UTC)

• For footballers, whilst international games may be used as a guide to notability, you do have to be careful with that one as there have been some great players who happened by birth to play for fairly poor (or even very poor) international sides who would never win anything or even qualify for major finals. I know George Best is already dead, but that would be an example. George Weah might be another one (though he's automatically notable now as he's President of Liberia!). Black Kite (talk) 07:15, 4 April 2022 (UTC)

  If you wanted some other examples, you could say Ferenc Puskás for older examples, or in modern times, Zlatan Ibrahimović, Mohamed Salah and Henrikh Mkhitaryan. The Voivodeship King (talk) 11:44, 5 April 2022 (UTC)

• I think it's subjective, many would merit discussion but I don't think simple inclusion criteria will be appropriate across all 'team sports'. Some thoughts: Being captain of a successful national team would help, as would playing for multiple national teams or for leagues in multiple countries. Being a player who reaches international acclaim for their skill, or was important in the founding or development of the sport would be another point toward inclusion. Having their achievements retold in TV or Film (internationally, e.g. Cool Runnings!) having a future career (in pro sports) as an international team manager might be a factor. Some sports are more international, e.g. soccer has a much wider reach than ice hockey. JeffUK (talk) 16:35, 4 April 2022 (UTC)

  Many are added whose only international notability is having played for their national team. Some have scored international goals, but is that enough on its own? Jim Michael (talk) 20:35, 7 April 2022 (UTC)

  I don't think so as default, I don't think '2022 was the year that the Belarusian 1973 champions league volleyball Goal Attack died' (Made up example) is *necessarily* relevant to the year as a whole; nor the information the reader will be looking for when they come to this page in the future. (Of course if that GA went on to become a member of parliament, or was the greatest netball player of all time, that might be different) There are thousands of international team games played every year, there would simply be too many to include all of them. We have Deaths in 2022 for that. JeffUK (talk) 09:03, 8 April 2022 (UTC)