Talk:2018 China–African Union espionage allegations

Did you know nomination

The following is an archived discussion of the DYK nomination of the article below. Please do not modify this page. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as this nomination's talk page, the article's talk page or Wikipedia talk:Did you know), unless there is consensus to re-open the discussion at this page. No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was: promoted by BorgQueen (talk) 21:36, 3 February 2023 (UTC)

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• ... that in 2018 the Chinese government was accused of spying on the African Union for five years? Source: "But in January 2018, French newspaper Le Monde Afrique dropped a bombshell. [...] The newspaper, citing multiple sources, said that for five years, between the hours of midnight and 0200, data from the AU’s servers was transferred more than 8,000km away - to servers in Shanghai." [1]
• ALT1 ... that after erecting the African Union's headquarters, the Chinese government was accused in 2018 of spying on the building for five years? Same source and quote as other hook plus: "In 2006, Beijing pledged $200m to build the headquarters. Completed in 2012, everything was custom-built by the Chinese - including a state-of-the-art computer system." and "It was also reported that microphones and listening devices had been discovered in the walls and desks of the building, following a sweep for bugs."
  • Reviewed: None – this is my second DYK nomination and I am therefore exempt from the QPQ requirement.

Moved to mainspace by Giraffer (talk). Self-nominated at 22:44, 22 December 2022 (UTC).

• Save this for April Fool's Day. I explain on Article talk page. What’s the Deal with Huawei and This African Union Headquarters Hack? — Preceding unsigned comment added by CaribDigita (talk • contribs) 07:36, 23 December 2022 (UTC)

  I've replied on the article talk page, but I strongly object to this being characterized as fake news. The incident is covered in multiple reliable and independent sources (BBC News, Le Monde, Financial Times, Reuters), and I've tried to word the article in a manner which does not state China's guilt as fact, but covers how China is alleged to have been responsible for the espionage.

  The linked source here explains how there are reasons why China may be guilty, and also reasons why they may not be. That is the point of describing these as allegations.

  Regardless, saving this for April Fools is frivolous. Giraffer ^{(talk·contribs)} 11:13, 23 December 2022 (UTC)

• @Giraffer: new enough, long enough, neutral, and plagiarism-free; there's an "unreliable source" tag that I agree needs to be addressed, but other than that, the sourcing for the background of the incident looks solid. After that, however, the reliability of the sources seems to get shakier. Also, I'm not sure if the April Fools' thing is an attempt at humour or something, but there's definitely solid reporting on the allegations. And that's not really what we use April Fools' day for (we couldn't let fake news sully our important lineup of obscure figures with well-known name fragments, in rem jurisdiction cases, and giant millipedes). The article doesn't actually say that the Chinese government was accused of spying, nor who did the accusing, so that'll need some work re: the hooks. Nominator is QPQ exempt, almost there! theleekycauldron (talk • contribs) (she/her) 10:40, 1 January 2023 (UTC)

  Theleekycauldron, I've fixed the unreliable source (removed it, since the next inline source covers the relevant material). Re the allegations, they originally came from the Le Monde Afrique article, and later were supported by comments from AU officials which indicated that surveillance had occurred. I'm not really sure how to make that clear in the article beyond what's already been written in the lead and Reactions section. For the DYK, maybe specifying in the hook that it was Le Monde? e.g. something like "... that an article published by Le Monde Afrique in 2018 accused the Chinese government of spying on the African Union for five years? Giraffer ^{(talk·contribs)} 16:17, 2 January 2023 (UTC)

  Giraffer, could you point me to the sentence in the article as to who accuses the Chinese government of spying? theleekycauldron (talk • contribs) (she/her) 03:20, 4 January 2023 (UTC)

  Theleekycauldron, In January 2018, French newspaper Le Monde Afrique published a story detailing how the headquarters of the African Union were being spied on by the Chinese government. Perhaps counterintuitively, it's actually Le Monde who first accuse the Chinese government, and then there's a mixed reaction from the AU (denial vs. reluctant acceptance). I initially thought to title the page as a scandal rather than allegations, and in hindsight that may have been a better option. Giraffer ^{(talk·contribs)} 10:44, 4 January 2023 (UTC)

  @Giraffer: Hmmmmm. Could we make it clearer that it's just the reporting of Le Monde, then, and not a hard fact? I'd also like to see the accusation placed in the timeline in the body of the article. theleekycauldron (talk • contribs) (she/her) 12:32, 5 January 2023 (UTC)

  Theleekycauldron, I've added a sentence in the body of the article which should clarify it. Apologies for the delay. Giraffer ^{(talk·contribs)} 19:09, 29 January 2023 (UTC)

  then the holy tick I shall grant. Cheers! theleekycauldron (talk • contribs) (she/her) 06:25, 31 January 2023 (UTC)

LOL This fake news again? Is it April's Fool's Day? See Talk Page of article. CaribDigita (talk) 06:19, 23 December 2022 (UTC)

This story should be an example for April Fools' Day because it is fake news

This story should be saved until April Fool's Day.

• Huawei has announced it was [http://www.huawei.com/en/facts/voices-of-huawei/statement-on-huaweis-work-with-the-african-union fake news]. The BBC finally (China dismisses 'absurd' African Union HQ spying claim) [https://www.bbc.com/news/world-africa-42861276 admitted] it may be fake as has [https://www.voanews.com/a/after-allegations-of-spying-african-union-renews-huawei-alliance/4947968.html Voice of America]. This story is better left for April Fools day as the fake news Wikipedia joke.

It is the new 2018 version of "Saddam has Weapons of Mass Destruction." by the media.

The African Union has denied this:

• [http://www.xinhuanet.com/english/2018-01/30/c_136935808.htm African leaders dismiss French report of China "spying" on AU headquarters] * [https://mg.co.za/article/2018-01-29-how-china-spied-on-the-african-unions-computers/ How China spied on the African Union’s computers] However, another report did highlight that members of the African Union did say the British did the [ https://www.lemonde.fr/afrique/article/2016/12/08/british-tapped-un-and-ngo-phones-and-emails-in-nigeria-and-congo_5045681_3212.html same] , [https://www.lusakatimes.com/2018/01/30/china-calls-au-spying-report-preposterous/ China calls AU spying report “preposterous”]

China has denied it:

• [https://www.globaltimes.cn/page/202012/1211103.shtml US spins ‘China spying on AU’ lies]
• [https://www.dw.com/en/china-rejects-preposterous-african-union-headquarters-spying-report/a-42356816 China calls AU spying report 'preposterous']
• [https://news.cgtn.com/news/346b6a4e30677a6333566d54/share_p.html China, African leaders slam French report on AU headquarters hacking as ‘ridiculous’, ‘nonsense’]

with the head of the African Union saying they know nothing about it and subsequent heads saying the same. It amounts to essentially fake news. They said 'they do not keep secrets' as claimed 'everything for the annual meetings they say is public.' * [https://www.chinadailyhk.com/articles/80/57/42/1517309037893.html African leaders dismiss China 'spying' report] * [https://www.techzim.co.zw/2018/01/report-says-china-spying-on-african-union-china-responds/ Report Says China Was Spying On The African Union, China Responds] But the main-steam western media trying to sell papers continues to run with it multiple times without evidence. They claim some server or sometimes it is a [https://www.heritage.org/africa/commentary/how-china-has-been-using-huawei-made-cameras-spy-the-african-union-headquarters camera] is hacked but don't say who found it.

Not only that, the African Union states portray that it is FAKE NEWS by signing MORE deals with Huawei because they don't believe it either.

• (Huawei Strengthens Its Hold on Africa Despite U.S.-Led Boycott)
  • [https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2020-08-19/china-s-huawei-prospers-in-africa-even-as-europe-asia-join-trump-s-ban here]
• 2019: African Union deepens cooperation with Huawei
• (Africa embraces Huawei tech despite security concerns)
  • [https://www.dw.com/en/africa-embraces-huawei-technology-despite-security-concerns/a-60665700 here],
• (South Africa is battling to force China’s Huawei to employ locals)
  • [https://www.theafricareport.com/177159/south-africa-is-battling-to-force-chinas-huawei-to-employ-locals/ here]

CaribDigita (talk) 06:15, 23 December 2022 (UTC)

@CaribDigita, what? I have intentionally avoided making outright claims anywhere that China definitively hacked the AU. The article is about the allegations that this occurred.

If I was stating that China hacked the AU, sure, the article could be false. But I wrote about the scandal itself, attempting to avoid making concrete statements China's guilt. If you feel like I've failed in that regard, please make any changes you feel necessary. Giraffer ^{(talk·contribs)} 10:58, 23 December 2022 (UTC)

In other reports it was supposedly found by Japan instead. And didn't occur at the HQ Reuters says it was the building across the street and by a hackers group instead.

• cameras + hackers group

Overview of the whole story [2]

CaribDigita (talk) 17:32, 23 December 2022 (UTC)

The Reuters link is about a separate incident – the article was published in December 2020 and refers to events that happened that year. It does mention the 2018 incident (covered by this Wikipedia article), though. Giraffer ^{(talk·contribs)} 23:59, 23 December 2022 (UTC)

You know what. I am going to re-tract my objections. Because I think the media is doing a great job of showing why media is doubted so much, so I'm going to let them injure themselves. African leaders increasely call out the fake news themselves and this just gives them more ammo. Carry on. CaribDigita (talk) 23:41, 24 December 2022 (UTC)

Basically single source

This entire story in based on the reporting of a single source. I have serious misgivings about this entire article. --- C&C (Coffeeandcrumbs) 17:34, 12 February 2023 (UTC)