Talk:2018–19 Manchester United F.C. season

Fred

If the club website has announced signing of Fred, why isn't it considered official? Coderzombie (talk) 13:58, 6 June 2018 (UTC)

Because the club has not announced the signing of Fred, they have merely announced that they have agreed a deal with Shakhtar. I believe the medical has been passed, but it's possible the contract hasn't been signed yet and the appropriate paperwork may not have been filed with the relevant FAs. – PeeJay 14:19, 6 June 2018 (UTC)

A template for transfers

I'd really appreciate any input on a proposed standard going forward for how transfers are listed on club season articles. There is a discussion ongoing here at the moment. Given the implications for this page, I thought it would be best to give a heads up.Domeditrix (talk) 10:41, 6 August 2018 (UTC)

Matches

Serious lack of information in the matches (yellow cards, opposition goalscorers, etc) I'm willing to re-do it if regular editors of this page agree? See this as an example. User:Coventryy (talk) 16:55, 19 August 2018 (UTC)

I'm happy to address these points if you don't mind me restoring this edit; feel free to revert otherwise. Until then, I'd like to ask what relevance the opposition goalscorers are? This article is about Manchester United, not their opponents. If a reader wants to know who scored for the opposition, I suggest they go to that club's corresponding article. As for yellow cards, I don't see how they add to the article in any meaningful way. A yellow card does not contribute directly to the result of the game; a player has to get a multiple of five of them just to be banned for one game, and most players never get booked that many times in a season. I'm not even really in favour of including disciplinary records in the stats table at the bottom of the article as there's no source provided to back up that info, just a small cabal of editors keeping their own running totals, which violates WP:OR. The only information from {{footballbox collapsible}} I could conceivably see including in the existing results tables is the name of the match referee, but I was knocked back by other editors last season who wished to keep things as they were. What other info do you think is missing? – PeeJay 22:34, 19 August 2018 (UTC)

Hi PeeJay, if more than anything it gives the page the uniform look found across other teams in the same league - see Man City and Liverpool. it's also more visually appealing. I absolutely believe users are interested who scored against the team and who got booked/sent off, etc...If we can utilise this information, why not use it? As per source, SkySports and the BBC (I think) record cards. Let's see if any one else wants to add their 2 cents before sticking or twisting. Coventryy (talk) 16:55, 20 August 2018 (UTC)

Exact same thing was discussed in a previous season. I wouldn't agree that bookings are worthwhile, but red cards and opposition scorers absolutely are, like on, I would say, the majority other team season pages.Bs1jac (talk) 21:48, 18 February 2019 (UTC)

You can’t just say you think something is important without giving a reason other than “it’s on other pages”. The identities of opposition scorers are irrelevant to an article about Manchester United’s season. They just aren’t. We acknowledge that the opponent scored via the scoreline and we move on. Red cards, equally, are so infrequent that we can easily mention them in the prose section of the article that we’re supposed to have. The only info I think is worth adding to the results table is the name of the referee, but that was slapped down by someone who felt the same way about that as I do about opposition goalscorers and red cards. As yet, no one has provided a good reason as to why opposition goalscorers should be named in the results table, and with that in mind, I see no reason to change a practice that has been in place for over a decade. – PeeJay 00:50, 19 February 2019 (UTC)

Agreed that uniformity is preferable to the mish-mash of styles we have at the minute, but I also agree that this needs more input. That said, I think this requires more than just a binary decision; IMO, it's not simply a case of this or that, as there are elements to both that would improve the other. I don't think bookings fall into that category, however; the tables/collapsible templates are supposed to be a summary of a prose account of the season, so I would say, if you wouldn't include something in a prose account, it definitely has no place in the summary. As to the consistency argument, it's not just the Manchester United series that uses this style, and there are well over 100 articles covering Manchester United alone, so the scope of what you suggest is clearly quite far-reaching. – PeeJay 17:53, 20 August 2018 (UTC)

League positions

League positions are always given as at the end of the day the match was played. It's always been this way, based on the league tables shown in the club's own yearbooks and on the BBC's match reports for each game. The method used on the Premier League's website doesn't make sense, as teams often have matches postponed, which gives a false impression that a "matchweek" has been completed when it actually has one or more matches left to play. – PeeJay 00:14, 23 August 2018 (UTC)

@PeeJay2K3:The method used by the Premier League is the official method so they are not always given as you said. The Premier League runs the Premier League, not BBC or Manchester United. The table on the BBC is just a current table and doesn't archive positions like on the Premier League website. Regarding the MUFC yearbook, I haven't looked at how they record positions but Wikipedia prefers 2nd party sites to 1st party sites (ie Not using Manchester United website for a reference to a Manchester United articles when possible). Most lower leage matches are played on Saturday at 3pm or midweek at 8pm concluding a matchweek. The Premier League only has its matches at different times for TV purposes not to alter the official league positions per watchweek which is why the Premier League archives it as such - having United's week 1 positions as 7th not 1st. In addition regarding postponed matches, they are often excluded from the matchweek they we supposed to be and when they are played including in the prior or next matchweek (which ever it's closest to). Also regards to consistency, the league positions were inputed to Wikipedia for United's last season by matchweek and all other football clubs I've seen are doing it the same. Finally, I want to make a point that with this discussion is going on the positions should be 7th and 9th as that follows the method they were originally inputed as per Wikipedia Policy. (And before you say it was originally inputed as "1st", notice that the first is in quotation marks indicating that this position isn't final as the matchweek isn't over, hence why it was "1st" then "5th" ater Saturday's matches then 7th after Sunday's matches. Notice that the 7th is not in quotation marks because the matchweek is over (Check this in the edit history)). Mn1548 (talk) 17:23, 23 August 2018 (UTC)

I think it's cute that you are dictating Wikipedia policies to me when I've been editing on this site for over a decade longer than you have. The Premier League does not just change its fixtures for TV, it also postpones matches when they clash with cup ties. Also, you're saying we shouldn't use first-party sources but you're also claiming that we should use the Premier League site for info about the Premier League - which is it, man? Since I've been editing this series of pages, we've always used the position at the end of the day when the match was played and I see no reason to stop that now. – PeeJay 16:18, 23 August 2018 (UTC)

If you've been editing it as "the end of the day when the match was played" then I would have been having this discussion with you last year instead of now. Regarding the Wikipedia policies, I saw you're an older editor so thought it wasn't warrented bringing it up but apparently it is as if you'd followed it you would havd had this conversation with the at least 2 other editors I've seen on the edit history revert your 1st back to it original 7th. Postponed matches are avoided at all costs which is why they are rare. Postponed matches are omitted from the official matchweek update to the table so really have no effect on this situation. Finally, the Premier League website is more 2nd party than Man United's seen as this article is mainly about Manchester United and covers the Premier League from a United veiw point. In addition, whilst on the topic of the Premier League’s website, in our last discussion about Lee Grant (which shortly atfer we concluded the discussion you changed his shirt number back to what I edited to - 13), you mentioned how things being official is the most if not one of thd most important things when making a Wikipedia edit. The Premier League’s website is the most official place to find league positions so that's where they should be taken from whether they make sense to you or not which is 7th and 9th for Manchester United at the end of the respective matchweeks. Mn1548 (talk) 17:23, 23 August 2018 (UTC)

The thing is, there's really no such thing as a "matchweek". The Premier League uses that term for Fantasy Football purposes, but it doesn't have any actual meaning. Unfortunately last season I decided to trust people to continue updating the page as I had done for several years prior. It's only now that I'm realising that they were doing it wrong and now I'm having to go back and check last year's page for factual inaccuracies. The Premier League doesn't actually record league positions after each club's matches, only for the league as a whole. However, if someone is reading this page, they probably want to know what United's position was after each of their games. Fortunately for us, the club's yearbooks give that information, which (along with Statto.com) is what I used when I created the articles for years past. You'd have to come up with a pretty good reason to change from that now, and so far you haven't managed it. – PeeJay 18:48, 23 August 2018 (UTC)

For a start "matchweek" does have an actual meaning. It is the timespan in a group of matches are played. For example, matchweek 1 for the 2018/19 Premier League season was between the 10th and 12th of August because all first matches were played during this time, with matchweek 2 being the 18th to the 20th of August because that is when the second matches were played. Secondly, one of the reasons for making the making the edit in the first place is that I would want to see a clubs position after a concluded matchweek as it is more representative of the clubs position. In this case it is especially true for Manchester United as they had the opening match. The club would either be first or last depending on if they won or lost therefore showing the positions after a concluded matchweek gives an idea of how they played compaired to other clubs. Finally, as I've said, inputting Premier League positions from the Premier League’s website is not "wrong". In fact I don't see how it can be anything other than correct, they do run the thing after all, however I would like you to send me the exact links to the pages on the MUFC yearbook and Statto where your referencing the league position just so I can have a better understanding of where you're coming from. And regards to good reasons, I'm still waiting for one for why the official positions from the Premier League cannot not be uses, just because you claim they "[don't] make sense" won't cut it. Mn1548 (talk) 21:00, 23 August 2018 (UTC)

As I have stated, the concept of a "matchweek" falls apart when various matches are postponed due to cup commitments. Is the "matchweek" concluded at the end of the originally scheduled set of dates, or when all the matches originally scheduled for those dates have been played, because sometimes those can be several months apart. If you look at a BBC match report, they give teams' positions at the end of the day on which the match was played. I can't give you a link to a Manchester United yearbook as they don't publish them online - you'll need to be a club member or buy one off eBay or something; furthermore, Statto was unfortunately discontinued, but there are other websites that keep a day-by-day record of the league table. – PeeJay 16:19, 4 September 2018 (UTC)

And as I have already explain if matches are postponed the Premier League ignores those matches from their matchweek archives and instead archives them during the matchweek they are eventually played. Sure the league table is updated at the end of each match but those are not the official archived positions. The fact of the matter is the Premier League archives positions by matchweek therefore it is how they should be archived here. I asked you to link me those sites because I knew you couldn't. You're citing a site that no longer exists and a site that won't exist until the end of the season where as I, and all those who are inputting the positions as well, are using the official data from the Premier League. The "concept" of matchweek is not a concept as it has a clear definition and is used all the time by the Premier League and the BBC. The day it falls appart is the day matches are played continually and with out even(ish) rest breaks for all clubs which currently is not the case as you don't see any club playing all there matches with in the first four weeks. You need to accept that matchweeks exist, each league match is part of one, and the Premier League has a method of archiving data when matches aren't playet at their intended time! Mn1548 (talk) 19:30, 4 September 2018 (UTC)

Look, this clearly isn't going to be solved by the two of us coming at each other from opposing positions with neither apparently willing to move. You say I "need" to accept this, but you've not given me adequate reason to do so. The current system has been in place ever since these season articles were started, so I suggest we leave it in place until others have weighed in on the subject. – PeeJay 00:43, 5 September 2018 (UTC)

I'm in agreement with @Mn1548:. It is misleading to those reading the encyclopaedia to show standings after the match concluded, rather than after the full week of fixtures - it doesn't give an accurate indication / representation of how the team had performed over a period of team when it doesn't even attempt to account for other teams playing matches – and providing an accurate representation of how the team had performed over a period of time is the precise point of this. Surely, if the argument being furthered by you, @PeeJay2K3:, is that the Premier League does not adhere to the concept of matchdays at all, then it would be better to do away with this section entirely? Domeditrix (talk) 13:26, 5 September 2018 (UTC)

I think it should be after all matches in a said matchweek. If only according to one match it will quite misleading and unfair, since the other team had not played (1st match vs LEI). – Flix11 (talk) 11:02, 4 November 2018 (UTC)

Unfair to whom? At the end of the day United played their first match, they were in first place: what is misleading or unfair about that? The BBC reports positions this way (see here), as do Manchester United's official club yearbooks, which are available to members of the official supporters club or from eBay. – PeeJay 11:05, 4 November 2018 (UTC)

As previously stated it is a misrepresentation of the results. If they play early, giving the position after the end of the day the match was played makes the team look better than they are if they win and worse than they are if they loose as fewer matches have been played to compare it to. In this case it gives MUFC an additional 6 places which they never had, and because they lost the week after during a later kick off, more than the 9 other matches have been available for comparison so your method shows them dropping 9 places when in reality they only dropped 2. Also with this talk page it is 3 in support of the matchweek method against 1. How many does it require to have it changed? Also they are many editios who update positions via the matchweek method who haven added to this talk pages. In addition the first position to matchweek 1 was 7th not 1st so the position should be displayed via the matchweek method until this is resolved. Mn1548 (talk) 13:19, 12 November 2018 (UTC)

Considering I have provided sources that give the position at the end of the day each game is played, I see no reason to change it. – PeeJay 13:51, 12 November 2018 (UTC)

Your sources: 1. The United yearbook which as you said isn't publised yet. 2. Statto.com which no longer exists. 3. The table on the BBC website which update as a match is played and doesn't archive results so is a bit useless for us to determine how they should be archived. However if we look at the Premier League website, there is a drop down box where you can veiw Premier League results via matchweeks, archiving the league positions as such. Mn1548 (talk) 21:59, 12 November 2018 (UTC)

I never said the Manchester United yearbook isn't published yet. It's published every year going back decades, and this is how they've always done it. And the table on the BBC match reports doesn't update daily, they keep the same table in there forever (see here). – PeeJay 07:47, 13 November 2018 (UTC)

Individual awards

Should this article, and previous seasons, include individual awards (PL monthly and/or annual, LMA, UEFA)? – Flix11 (talk) 06:26, 9 February 2019 (UTC)

I don't think so. If we actually bothered to do a prose account of the season, then I would say any mention of those awards should go in there. – PeeJay 12:41, 9 February 2019 (UTC)

own goals in stats table

I don't get it, whats the own goals for? What game was it scored in, by whom? Is it negative or positive data? Govvy (talk) 22:47, 13 February 2019 (UTC)

I don't understand what you mean. Obviously that row is a way of keeping track of how many own goals were scored in Manchester United's favour; the identities of the actual scorers are recorded in the results table for each competition. H2H. – PeeJay 14:30, 14 February 2019 (UTC)

Match report external links.

They are all going 404. Probably better with premierleague.com or bbc.co.uk Govvy (talk) 23:51, 6 March 2019 (UTC)

@PeeJay2K3: Nearly most of the reports are 404!! Govvy (talk) 15:00, 7 March 2019 (UTC)

Third Colours

What's the reasoning behind changing "Third Colours" to "Away Colours" on every teams season pages. Mn1548 (talk) 12:46, 17 March 2019 (UTC)

Player of the Month

@PeeJay2K3: Why not? It's as valid a piece of information as anything else on this page, and probably the best page to put it on. Mn1548 (talk) 10:54, 3 April 2019 (UTC)

This might be the most appropriate page for it, but that doesn't mean it necessarily belongs here. – PeeJay 10:56, 3 April 2019 (UTC)