Talk:2013 Alabama bunker hostage crisis

Rename

The article's title could be better. While this one is clear, it's also a bit long. Perhaps something like Midland City, Alabama hostage situation or Jimmy Lee Dykes? Paris1127 (talk) 02:32, 5 February 2013 (UTC)

I agree. The title needs some work. Joseph A. Spadaro (talk) 04:51, 5 February 2013 (UTC)

I second the motion. I typed in "Jimmy Lee Dykes" and was redirected to "2013 Alabama school bus driver murder and child abduction." The title is definitely too long. Plus, tragic as it was, the murder of the school bus driver is not the main event here. If he doesn't take a 5-year-old hostage for almost a week, we don't have much of a notable event. It's the kidnapping that should be the focus of the title, not the murder of the bus driver, which was apparently not part of the original "plan" anyway. IrishCowboy (talk) 13:30, 5 February 2013 (UTC)

Exactly. I agree 100% with what was said above by User IrishCowboy. The "real" event or story is the week-long child kidnapping. The murder was only an afterthought or incidental event. However, I do not think that the article title should be "Jimmy Lee Dykes" (as suggested above). This article is about the event, not about that individual person and his bio. Joseph A. Spadaro (talk) 15:09, 5 February 2013 (UTC)

When I went to Google News and typed in "Jimmy Dykes", most of the article titled seemed to use some variation of "Bunker standoff" and/or "hostage standoff" as part of the title. Perhaps some variation of 2013 Alabama bunker standoff would be a better (and shorter) title? It seems to be the most concise title I could think of and reflects reliable sources; it happened in 2013 in Alabama, and was a standoff where the suspect was holed up in a bunker. I couldn't really think of a way to fit "kidnapping" into the title without making it sound forced, other than maybe 2013 Alabama bunker kidnapping, but that doesn't sound quite right either. - SudoGhost 15:21, 5 February 2013 (UTC)

I like the idea of 2013 Alabama bunker standoff as perhaps the best suggestion yet. It still lacks the essential ingredient of the child kidnapping, but perhaps that can't be had while maintaining conciseness. I also agree that 2013 Alabama bunker kidnapping is not right, since the bunker itself wasn't kidnapped, nor did the actual kidnapping occur at or near a bunker. The kidnapper merely ended up there once the kidnapping had taken place. Jimmy Lee Dykes, other than his role in this event, is certainly not notable enough for his own page. Besides, when the interest in this kidnapping dies down, most people looking for "Jimmy Dykes" will be looking for Jimmy Dykes (sportscaster) anyway (as was my thought when I first heard his name without "Lee" in the middle). IrishCowboy (talk) 15:42, 5 February 2013 (UTC)

Also, to throw in another monkey wrench. This was (technically, at least) an alleged kidnapping, and not a kidnapping per se. So, that fact needs to be considered when trying to create a good title. That is, adding in the word "alleged" before the word "kidnapping" makes an already long and unwieldy title even more so. Joseph A. Spadaro (talk) 15:49, 5 February 2013 (UTC)

Well then I think maybe 2013 Alabama bunker standoff would be a good title, given that it's concise and accurate, and is specific enough to distinguish it from anything else. Do you have any objection to that title or any suggestion for improving it? - SudoGhost 15:52, 5 February 2013 (UTC)

What about something like 2013 Alabama bunker hostage situation, 2013 Alabama bunker hostage crisis or 2013 Alabama bunker child abduction? Perhaps get rid of the 2013 altogether? If the child is named, perhaps something like "Abduction of (Name)". Paris1127 (talk) 16:27, 5 February 2013 (UTC)

The problem with including the child's name in this instance is that (allegedly) he was not singled out. The kidnapper asked for children of a certain age, and there is no indication that he knew or cared who the boy was when he took off with him. The child's name, therefore, seems somewhat irrelevant to the article, other than being anecdotally included, whenever it is released. 2013 should probably stay, as sometime in the future there could be another "Alabama hostage situation." IrishCowboy (talk) 17:14, 5 February 2013 (UTC)

Well, yes and no. Whether or not this specific kid was intended as the target, he was in fact abducted. So, a title like "abduction of Ethan Last Name" would be appropriate. However, most sources are not using the kid's name. And the general public would be using other search terms as well. In other words, this incident is not really being linked with the kid's actual name by most – or even by any – sources. Joseph A. Spadaro (talk) 19:16, 5 February 2013 (UTC)

This is a hard one to pin down, exactly. I think that the word "hostage" needs to be in the title. No? That seems the most germane piece of the event. Joseph A. Spadaro (talk) 16:31, 5 February 2013 (UTC)

I tend to agree on this point, too. The word "hostage" is more important than even the word "bunker." The problem is that the media, in its effort to sensationalize things, has been keying in on the word "bunker" to the point that it will identify this situation in people's minds more than the word "hostage" will. IrishCowboy (talk) 17:43, 5 February 2013 (UTC)

Well I think that it's because the bunker is kind of an odd point, one that distinguishes it from other similar situations. I think in ten years the bunker aspect will be the disambiguating thing about this event, that separates it from other murder/kidnapping/hostage standoffs. That's the only reason I suggested it be part of the article's title, that and the fact that most sources I could find tended to use it in their titles as well. 2013 Alabama hostage standoff? I've found quite a few sources that also use this as a descriptor.[1][2][3] Unless that's too ambiguous, which it very well may be. - SudoGhost 17:29, 5 February 2013 (UTC)

You make a good point about the 10-year test. Plus, "bunker" seems to appear more often than "hostage" in titles and on news programs. If 2013 Alabama bunker hostage standoff is too long and unwieldy, I guess I'd vote for 2013 Alabama bunker standoff. IrishCowboy (talk) 17:43, 5 February 2013 (UTC)

I think either of those two just mentioned would be better than the current title. Coretheapple (talk) 22:37, 7 February 2013 (UTC)

Deletion?

I'm not sure this warrants an article at all. Not every news event does. Coretheapple (talk) 04:09, 5 February 2013 (UTC)

I don't see, on its face, how it's any less notable than the 1976 Chowchilla kidnapping linked from it, other than the number of victims, and perhaps the later media adaptations. ProfessorTofty (talk) 07:17, 5 February 2013 (UTC)

Yes, that article should be deleted as well, as should the vast majority of Wikipedia articles if it were a real encyclopedia. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 70.71.140.21 (talk) 09:20, 5 February 2013 (UTC)

The sparser the data, the better the encyclopedia, eh? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 72.48.177.50 (talk) 14:26, 5 February 2013 (UTC)

Real encyclopedias aren't mass databases of all information known to the human race (only fake encyclopedias like Wikipedia). This article's subject is obviously of no significance; in a hundred years, who will care? What impact will this have on anything? None, of course. It really doesn't matter what some policy says (not that anyone around here follows Wikipedia policies anyways), this article would obviously not exist in a real encyclopedia. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 70.71.140.21 (talk) 19:41, 5 February 2013 (UTC)

What are the guidelines for notability for crimes? Jim Michael (talk) 14:35, 5 February 2013 (UTC)

For the notability of crimes, see Wikipedia:Notability (events)#Criminal acts. And, for the perpetrators (and victims) of crimes, see WP:CRIME. Thanks. Joseph A. Spadaro (talk) 15:17, 5 February 2013 (UTC)

That deletion guideline doesn't help very much. I'm not saying it should be deleted, just raising the question. Coretheapple (talk) 18:02, 5 February 2013 (UTC)

I have to agree with this. I'm also not sure this is notable enough to warrant an article. .אבי נ (talk) 20:07, 5 February 2013 (UTC)

I've tagged the article for notability. I think this needs to be fully discussed. I'd say it's borderline, the merits weighing maybe 60-40 for deletion. Coretheapple (talk) 20:56, 5 February 2013 (UTC)

This article should be deleted. The perpetrator of the crime wasn't a notable person at all and posting articles such as this affords him notoriety in a manner that breeds copycats. — Quicksilver^{T @} 04:14, 6 February 2013 (UTC)

ProfessorTofty drew a parallel to the 1976 Chowchilla kidnapping, but I think the two are different. The Chowchilla incident involved the kidnapping of 26 children, an entire school bus. This was the kidnapping of one child off a bus. It got a lot of media cycles but I don't see the two as comparable. Coretheapple (talk) 13:54, 6 February 2013 (UTC)

I've taken off the notability tag. There doesn't seem to be much sentiment that this event is not notable, and the notability template on the page is distracting. Coretheapple (talk) 23:30, 10 February 2013 (UTC)

More details of the raid

More details of the raid perform were published by the LA Times. http://www.latimes.com/news/nationworld/nation/la-na-alabama-bunker-20130205,0,4956691.story roger (talk) 07:42, 5 February 2013 (UTC)

Death of Dykes

There is a report that the death of Dykes was caused by police. Quote: "The 65-year-old armed captor was killed by law enforcement agents, an official told The Associated Press". See Kidnapped Boy Held In Alabama Bunker, Happy To Be Home With Family: Relative. Thanks. Joseph A. Spadaro (talk) 16:32, 5 February 2013 (UTC)

I think it was great no one jumped the gun here until something official was released about Dykes being killing by agents. Shows great restraint by us NOT to put in the obvious UNTIL it was official...KUDOS. Kennvido (talk) 22:26, 7 February 2013 (UTC)

Cultural considerations?

I have mixed feelings about whether or not the article should be deleted. As a news event it seems pretty trivial (now that it's over), but it also strikes me as significant evidence of something else, and it should be linked from some other topics... Considering Gladwell's Outliers, it might be evidence of the violence culture of that part of America. If so, it needs additional information about Dykes' history of craziness. I'm also wondering if it should be linked as evidence of negative repercussions of the war on drugs, though the argument is more difficult there. Essentially I think a lot of people lose their general respect for the law because of stupid laws--like anti-marijuana laws. (No, I don't smoke anything, but I've studied quite a bit about Prohibition, and I think the parallels are striking. However, I definitely had an ancient impression that happy potheads tended to be quite nonviolent.) Shanen (talk) 00:20, 6 February 2013 (UTC)

Moved this to the bottom of the page, chronologically, hope you don't mind.

I agree that it's an intriguing case and is continuing to grab headlines, which is why I tagged it for notability rather than nominate it for deletion. Since he is dead and the child rescued, it does not seem to rise to the level of the other massacres and gunnings that have taken place in recent weeks, such as the Newtown school massacre. But that could change. Coretheapple (talk) 00:27, 6 February 2013 (UTC)

Perpetrator

His motive? His criminal history? Did he know the driver? All that is stated in the article about Dykes is his name, age and that he served in the Vietnam War. Jim Michael (talk) 10:42, 6 February 2013 (UTC)

Rename Headings?

In light of the lengthy conversation above about changing the title of the article, especially the emphasis on the fact that it was a "hostage" standoff inside a "bunker," I believe renaming the section headings would be a good idea. As was stated above, the fact that the bus driver was slain is tragic, but not really a central theme to the story. The perpetrator would have (apparently) been satisfied not killing the bus driver if he could have kidnapped the children without doing so.

The section currently titled "Bus driver slaying" should probably be changed to something like "Initial Confrontation" or "Confrontation on the School Bus" or even "Abduction of Ethan." The bus driver's death is a bit anecdotal in the broader scheme of the kidnapping and hostage situation, which would have happened with or without Poland's death.

By the time we get to the section currently titled "Child abduction," the abduction has long since taken place, and the standoff moves to the bunker. This section should be labeled something like "Bunker Standoff." IrishCowboy (talk) 18:17, 8 February 2013 (UTC)

Suggested move

2013 Alabama school bus driver murder and child abduction → ? – The current name is too long, but I cannot find anything really consistent from news media. I feel the story was more about the chid abduction then the bus driver being murdered. If the bus driver was the only one murdered and that was it I'm sure there wouldn't have been much of a story. JayJay^{What did I do?} 20:28, 9 February 2013 (UTC)

What made this an event was the hostage crisis. I'd suggest 2013 Alabama school bus hostage crisis. Coretheapple (talk) 20:57, 9 February 2013 (UTC)

As was discussed at great length several sections above, what made this notable, as much as the hostage situation, was where the crisis took place, i.e. the bunker. IrishCowboy (talk) 04:28, 10 February 2013 (UTC)

I think "bunker" in the title, as was ultimately done, is fine too. Coretheapple (talk) 15:13, 10 February 2013 (UTC)

Moved to 2013 Alabama bunker hostage crisis, chitchat has been going nowhere for days, time to show some initiative. WWGB (talk) 04:54, 10 February 2013 (UTC)

• Comment: This article should not have been moved when it was in the middle of the Wikipedia:Requested move process. Having said that, as the appropriate template had not been placed on this page, the mover may not even have been aware that a formal move request was under discussion. If nobody objects to the new title, I suggest that the person who moved the article contacts an administrator and gets them to formally close the move request. Skinsmoke (talk) 05:02, 10 February 2013 (UTC)

Include last name?

Several sources I've seen have specifically identified Ethan with a last name http://www.dailytelegraph.com.au/news/world/bunker-boy-ethan-kirkland-saw-kidnapper-jimmy-lee-dykes-shot-dead/story-fnddckzi-1226576643830 for example, and several before that, while not giving Ethan's name identified his mother with first and last name (I know going just off of that would be WP:OR, but I'm just using that to show how much the information is out there. Given that, should it be included? (NPOV hat off: Given they've gone on Dr. Phil, I don't think the family is particularly interested in the privacy)Naraht (talk) 11:40, 14 February 2013 (UTC)

Grossly inappropriate to name this poor little kid in a perennial encyclopedia. See WP:BLPNAME. WWGB (talk) 10:49, 15 February 2013 (UTC)

Fair enough. If the family gets a TLC or Discovery Channel show about his recovery, I'll reconsider.Naraht (talk) 15:31, 15 February 2013 (UTC)

Vietnam veteran

Is it really necessary to add that the perpetrator was in the military during the Vietnam War in the lead? He was never even sent to Vietnam, he served somewhere in the Philippines or Okinawa. It has nothing to do with his actions here. This just feeds into the "crazy Vietnam vet" stereotype.--Bellerophon5685 (talk) 01:32, 7 October 2014 (UTC)