Talk:2011 United States listeriosis outbreak

Spineless snivelling cowards

I was really ticked off to read a current "news report" about this where neither the "journalists" nor the "regulators" are willing to list which retailers sold the infected cantaloupes and which didn't.^[1] It is readily possible for anyone to look up individual chain stores and see what they say about the cantaloupes, or what people say about them.^[2][3] We have a list of supermarket chains in the United States. But it is too big a job for one person - might take a whole day for a casual Wikipedia volunteer to assemble such a list, and who has the time? More to the point, who wants to do it if it's only going to be deleted as too detailed, too POV, too informative etc. So I just want to throw this out there: would a (inline sourced) table of retail chain status, at least the national retail chains and very preferably also the regional chains, be welcomed here? Wnt (talk) 15:48, 29 September 2011 (UTC)

Article name

If the article is going to be moved to 2011 United States listeriosis outbreak in cantaloupes, it seems to me that this is something that should be proposed at WP:RM rather than made as a non-controversial change. Thus I have moved it back. Twice now. In my view, unless there is another listeriosis outbreak in the U.S. in 2011, adding "in cantaloupes" would be unnecessary. But it's probably best to have a discussion, since opinions will differ. Good Ol’factory ^(talk) 21:14, 6 October 2011 (UTC)

Perhaps if you were a contributor to the article it would not be so controversial to you. --Richard Arthur Norton (1958- ) (talk) 23:10, 6 October 2011 (UTC)

I doubt it, since being a contributor to the article really has nothing to do with choosing an appropriate name for it. Good Ol’factory ^(talk) 01:15, 20 October 2011 (UTC)

I agree that unless there is another realized outbreak that is notable, we should keep this title to be general, like it is now. The spinach and beef outbreaks were just scares and no one has gotten sick from them (or if they have, no one has died). So, unless another listeriosis outbreak in the US becomes notable, there's no reason to change this article title. Silverseren^C 23:38, 6 October 2011 (UTC)

I also agree that the title should remain as "2011 United States listeriosis outbreak", as there are currently no other outbreaks of listeriosis in the U.S. They have mentioned some recalls due to Listeria, but that is very different from actual outbreaks of disease. Angryapathy (talk) 16:28, 7 October 2011 (UTC)

Although I agree that the title should be "2011 United States listeriosis outbreak" for now, it remains to be seen what it will eventually be called. At the moment the government seems inclined to identify it as the Jensen Farms cantaloupe listeriosis outbreak. See, for example Multistate Outbreak of Listeriosis Linked to Whole Cantaloupes from Jensen Farms, Colorado, and Consumer Safety Information on the Recalled Whole Cantaloupes by Jensen Farms. - 67.224.51.189 (talk) 20:48, 7 October 2011 (UTC)

• As these articles proliferate, we need to be able to aid the reader in distinguishing them, not by year, buy the vector, which is more memorable. People will remember the cantaloupe one but not the 1985 or 2011 one. See Category:2010s_medical_outbreaks and Category:Listeriosis and Category:Salmonellosis, you really cannot distinguish which was which based on the year and location. --Richard Arthur Norton (1958- ) (talk) 21:09, 7 October 2011 (UTC)

• Then we need a better sort of title, but the one it was changed to before was far too wordy and lengthy. We need something concise. Then again, I don't feel like the vector is something that really needs to be defined in the title. You define something by the disease (or the bacterium of the disease), not what food it was from. Silverseren^C 21:33, 7 October 2011 (UTC)

That is incorrect. The official CDC incidence report is "Multistate Outbreak of Listeriosis Linked to Whole Cantaloupes from Jensen Farms, Colorado". The vector is just as important, we have to be concise but as the outbreaks proliferate, we need to be able to aid the reader and be precise. United States can become US, and the EU country can become EU. --Richard Arthur Norton (1958- ) (talk) 21:52, 7 October 2011 (UTC)

I still don't consider the vector to be important at all and neither, apparently, did any of the people who made the articles on other outbreaks. If other listeriosis outbreaks occur from other vectors, then we will need to separate the titles by vector for clarification, but I don't think we need to do it as a bottom line when we only have a single article. Silverseren^C 22:05, 7 October 2011 (UTC)

"[Nor] did any of the people who made the articles on other outbreaks." Again wrong ... I created 6 of the 8, and I created the master list and I am the one who codified the names the first time around, and now I am changing them. Your track record isn't so good in this debate so far. --Richard Arthur Norton (1958- ) (talk) 23:03, 7 October 2011 (UTC)

I didn't know we were debating. I guess you're free to change the articles you made, but I and the three people above don't think that is necessary for this one. Silverseren^C 23:43, 7 October 2011 (UTC)

• Richard Arthur Norton (1958- ), if you think the name should be changed, just nominate it for renaming. What's so difficult about that? Good Ol’factory ^(talk) 01:15, 20 October 2011 (UTC)

Name

"outbreak in cantaloupes"

• Richard Arthur Norton (1958- ) (

"outbreak"

::why not take it to the talk page? Sometimes that results in agreement. 67.224.51.189 (talk) 20:50, 7 October 2011 (UTC) (lost track of where I was at)

Not Worst

Jalisco weighs in at over 4 dozen deaths, whereas Jensen has, to date, brought down fewer than 3 dozen. Unless the cantaloupes double their toll, the cheese takes top spot as deadliest in US. 67.224.51.189 (talk) 16:37, 5 November 2011 (UTC)

Not according to the source given. And i'm more willing to trust a recent source rather than one from 1985. The CDC must have recalculated their numbers or thrown out some of the deaths later since 1985. I'm going to revert you now. Silverseren^C 17:13, 5 November 2011 (UTC)

OK - I don't object to being reverted. Somewhere in the bowels of CDC there must be good figures. - 67.224.51.189 (talk) 22:33, 5 November 2011 (UTC)

I agree with the revert, I think the newer source in this case is a better source.MilkStraw532 (talk) 22:38, 5 November 2011 (UTC)

I think the news organization may have used the reference I added to the list of worst, but that CDC article was to support the number of infected up to that point in time. The next week's report would include any new deaths. The number used by the FDA is updated and is 48, other sources use 50. --Richard Arthur Norton (1958- ) (talk) 22:48, 5 November 2011 (UTC)

By subtracting the 19 fetal deaths included in the 48 Jalisco sum, you get 29, which makes it a tie. Back in 1985 fetuses were counted as human life. If they still should be, then the cantaloupes come in second. - 67.224.51.189 (talk) 23:31, 5 November 2011 (UTC)

Hmm...questionable on what to do here. But, then again, we shouldn't be putting our own opinion into this. The current source is using 29 (or 28) and we should be following that regardless. Changing it based on our own opinion of which should be used violates WP:NPOV. Silverseren^C 00:17, 6 November 2011 (UTC)

Regarding ABC as authoritative on homo est qui venturus est is POV. The Church has a different POV. In order to be neutral between points of view, I intend, when CDC updates its November 2 report (probably next week), to propose separate categories for that which would have been human and that which had been human in the death toll contest for worst. 67.224.51.189 (talk) 16:50, 11 November 2011 (UTC)

Unless reliable sources are making that sort of distinction, us doing it on our own would be original research and is not allowed. Silverseren^C 16:59, 11 November 2011 (UTC)

CDC is reliable. CDC sorts fetal from live. Main stream media are, you know, into sensation. Let us rely on figures from CDC, which try for accuracy and neutrality, rather than figures from ABC which sensationalize. Next week is fine - eventual NPOV is in the spirit of wikipedia - contention, then agreement. If you regard ABC as more reliable than CDC you are mistaken. They rely on CDC as do all the rest, then spin it. The cantaloupes are about at the end of their run - the next report may be the final count. Take it easy. - 67.224.51.189 (talk) 17:22, 11 November 2011 (UTC)

CDC puts the miscarriage in a separate category from the deaths. That means Jensen is worst. Final update: http://www.cdc.gov/listeria/outbreaks/index.html |title=Multistate Outbreak of Listeriosis Linked to Whole Cantaloupes from Jensen Farms, Colorado (Final update) |work=Listeriosis (Listeria infection) |publisher=Centers for Disease Control and Prevention |accessdate=December 9, 2011 - this is 67.224.51.189 at a new IP - 173.19.204.79 (talk) 00:48, 10 December 2011 (UTC)

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