Talk:2-8-4

ISBNs

See Talk:2-10-4#ISBNs. Slambo (Speak) 14:29, 27 August 2006 (UTC)

Norway

Norwegian Railways employed a number of 2-8-4/1-D-2's, dubbed "Dovre Giants".172.144.142.60 10:58, 26 January 2007 (UTC)

The text claims that NSB class 49 was "the only true compounds owned by the NSB". This claim is surprisingly, since a large number of Norwegian steam locomotives from 1893 onwards with both 2 and 4 cylinder compunds where built: classes 11b, 12b, 13, 15, 16, 18a, 19a, 20a, 21a (2 cylinders not superheated), classes 26, 30, 31 (4 cylinders superheated) and narrow gauge XVIII (4 cylinder Vauclain compound), to mention most of them, unless there is some special meaning in "true compounds"? --Sveins (talk) 13:50, 27 May 2018 (UTC)

United States Railroads Missing Details

Cooke Works delivered locomotives in early 1900´s to International Great Northern Railroad. Alco sales records shows ALCo-S 67656 - 67660 / 1928 2-8-4S 28x30 63 385.000 lb Missouri & Pacific Railroad Nr.1121 - 1125. Not International Great Northern Railroad Nr.1121 - 1125. Allocated by Missouri & Pacific to its Texas subsidiary International & Great Northern Railroad. (Same numbers.) Missouri & Pacific Railroad received new Berkshires from Lima 7476 - 7500 / 1930 2-8-4 28x30 63 412.000 lb Nr.1901 - 1925. In this case the correct name is Missouri Pacific Railroad Company (I-GN) Nr.1121 - 1125. Here is interesting detail. Baldwin had delivered to International & Great Northern in 1921 and 1924 ten 2-8-2 Mikado locomotives Nr. 501 - 510 just before the Missouri Pacific Railroad Company gained financial control over the International & Great Northern through its another subsidiary, the New Orleans, Texas, & Mexico Railway Company which purchased International Great Northern Railroad Company on June 20, 1924 only to be itself being purchased by Missouri Pacific Railroad Company and merged on January 1, 1925 to Mo-Pac. International & Great Railroad Company become this way part of Missouri Pacific Railroad Company, but it continued to operate as separate unit until it was finally merged totally to Missouri Pacific Railroad Company on January 1, 1956.

This is pure speculation, but it seems that the parent company, the Missouri Pacific Railroad Company exchanged its five Berkshires against the ten International & Great Northern Railway Company´s Mikado locomotives to be allocated to some other place on the vast network. The Mikados being renumbered Missouri Pacific Railroad Nr. 1101 -1110. And then made an additional order for Lima built new Berkshires Nr.1901 - 1925 in 1929 or 1930.

Lima Nr.1 (The Demonstrator) 28x30 63 385.000 lb was later sold to Illinois Central Railroad where it was numbered to I.C. Nr.7050.

Boston & Maine Railroad Class T-1a locomotives Nr.4000, 4002, 4005, 4006, 4009, 4009, 4010, 4012, 4014, and 4019 were resold in 1945 to Southern Pacific Railroad where they become S.P. Nr´s. 3500 - 3509 respectively.

Boston & Maine Railroad Class T-1a locomotives Nr.4001, 4003, 4004, 4008, 4011, 4015, and 4018 were resold in 1951 to Atchinson, Topeka & Santa Fe Railroad Company where they received new numbers in this respectively order: A.T.&S.F.Nr.4193, 4197, 4194, 4195, 4196, 4198, and 4199.

When New York, Chicago & St.Louis Railroad at first leased the Wheeling & Lake Erie Railroad in 1949 where the Wheeling & Lake Erie Railroad Berkshires renumbered into New York, Chicago & St.Louis Railroad numbering scheme when Wheeling & Lake Erie Railroad was offically incorporated to N.Y.C.&St.L. ( better known as the Nickel Plate Road)? Small details, but important ones just to create a detailed Berkshire type locomotive history in Wikipedia which has not been yet been done.

Would it be better to arrange another list of the US railroads to alternative order showing one group of railroads under same financial ownership which owned Berkshires? Just as Chesapeake & Ohio Railroad, New York, Chicago & St.Louis Railroad, Wheeling & Lake Erie Railroad etc to give a clearer picture.

—Preceding unsigned comment added by 88.114.199.54 (talk) 15:23, 25 May 2008 (UTC) 

Dead link

During several automated bot runs the following external link was found to be unavailable. Please check if the link is in fact down and fix or remove it in that case!

• http://nkprr.railfan.net/779/
  • In 2-8-4 on 2011-05-25 06:55:14, Socket Error: 'getaddrinfo failed'
  • In 2-8-4 on 2011-06-10 04:42:03, Socket Error: 'getaddrinfo failed'

--JeffGBot (talk) 04:42, 10 June 2011 (UTC)

Dead link 2

During several automated bot runs the following external link was found to be unavailable. Please check if the link is in fact down and fix or remove it in that case!

• http://www.trains.com/Content/Dynamic/Articles/000/000/001/810hlyiy.asp
  • In 2-8-4 on 2011-05-25 06:55:16, 404 Not Found
  • In 2-8-4 on 2011-06-10 04:42:22, 404 Not Found

--JeffGBot (talk) 04:42, 10 June 2011 (UTC)

Small error!

The number for the ex-Soviet Class FDp 2-8-4 on a plinth at the back of Kiev Passenger (near the sheds - to which access is not easy to get!) should read "FDp 20-578" and not "IS21-578" - I was there on June 19 this year and have some photos, but there are plenty in the Internet anyway. Maelli (talk) 13:44, 9 August 2011 (UTC)

Austrian 2-8-4

Some info that I omitted from the Austria heading during revision since I believe it rather belongs in a loco-specific article. Stored here for easy retrieval. André Kritzinger 00:27, 16 September 2012 (UTC)

A typical schedule for Class 12.0 locomotives was (as an example) heavy (up to 600 tons) D140 combined Bucharest / Istanbul - Budapest - Vienna - Salzburg - Innsbrück - Paris Express train. The schedule allowed 53 minutes for 60.6 km (37.7 mi) to Sankt Pölten. From St.Pölten to Amstetten, Lower Austria 64.0 km (39.8 mi) 48 minutes at average speed from start to stop of 80 km/h (50 mph). Amstetten - Linz Hbf 63.9 km (39.7 mi) in 50 minutes at average start to stop speed of 76.7 km/h (47.7 mph). Linz Hbf - Attnang-Puchheim 54.8 km (34.1 mi) in 46 minutes at 71.5 km/h (44.4 mph). Attnang-Puchheim - Salzburg Hbf 70.2 km (43.6 mi) start to stop in 60 minutes at 70.2 km/h (43.6 mph). The return workings followed a similar pattern. D139 Salzburg - Attnang-Puchheim in 57 minutes. Attnang-Puchheim - Wels (30.5 km (19.0 mi)) in 24 minutes. Wels - Linz Hbf (24.5 km (15.2 mi)) in 23 minutes. Linz Hbf - Amstetten in 60 minutes. Amstetten - St.Pölten in 59 minutes. St.Pölten - Wien Westbahnhof in 54 minutes.

Builder details:

• 114.01 -> 12.101 1D2-h3 Wiener Neustadt 5817 / 1928 -> (12.101) + 14.03.1953
• 214.01 -> 12.001 1D2-n2 Florisdorf 2970 / 1928 + 05.09.1961
• 214.02 - 214.07 -> 12.002 - 12.007 1D2-h2 Florisdorf 3030 - 3044 / 1931 + 1961
• 214.08 - 214.13 -> 12.008 - 12.013 1D2-h2 Florisdorf 3099 - 3104 / 1936 + 1962

After World War II, 12.001 - 12.013 were renumbered to ÖBB Class 12.01 -12.13.

In 1945 seven of these locomotives were taken over by the Soviet Military Administration when they occupied the Russian zone in Austria. These locomotives, 12.002, 005, 006, 007, 009, 013, and 12.101, had "T" (Trofya) painted before their running numbers and were marked CCCP.

Brazilian 2-8-4

Some info that I omitted from the Brazil heading during revision since I believe it rather belongs in a loco-specific article. Stored here for easy retrieval. André Kritzinger 19:23, 16 September 2012 (UTC)

Builder details:

• 142 D 1 - 11 Fives Lille 5235 - 5255/1951
• 142 D 12 - 22 Fives Lille 5246 - 5256/1952
• 142 D 23 - 25 Cail 4473 - 4475/1951
• 142 D 26 - 47 Schneider of Le Creusot 4938 - 4959/1951
• 142 D 48 - 66 Cail 4476 - 4494 / 1952

When arrived to Brazil locomotives were renumbered to Brazilian numbering schemes by the Brazilian Railways on which they were allocated.

Czechoslovakian 2-8-4

Some info that I omitted from the Czechoslovakia heading during revision since I believe it rather belongs in a loco-specific article. Stored here for easy retrieval. André Kritzinger 21:12, 16 September 2012 (UTC)

Builder details, Tank locomotives:

• 456.001 - 456.002 1D2t-h2 600x720 1624 109.3 tons Ceskomoravska-Kolben-Danek CKD 1100 - 1101 / 1928
• 456.003 - 456.008 1D2t-h2 600x720 1624 109.3 tons Ceskomoravska-Kolben-Danek CKD 1434 - 1439 / 1928
• 456.009 - 456.013 1D2t-h2 600x720 1624 109.3 tons Ceskomoravska-Kolben-Danek CKD 1469 - 1473 / 1929
• 456.014 - 456.023 1D2t-h2 600x720 1624 109.3 tons Ceskomoravska-Kolben-Danek CKD 1545 - 1554 / 1931
• 456.024 - 456.027 1D2t-h2 600x720 1624 109.3 tons Ceskomoravska-Kolben-Danek CKD 1608 - 1611 / 1932

For more details see: Jindrich Bek and Karel Kvarda Atlas Lokomotiv 1 Nadas-Praha 1970. (in Czech)

Builder details, Tender locomotives:

• 486.101 - 486.103 1D2-h3 Ceskomoravská - Kolben - Danek CKD 1621 - 1623 / 1934

German 2-8-4

Some info that I omitted from the Germany heading during revision since I believe it rather belongs in a loco-specific article. Stored here for easy retrieval. André Kritzinger 00:02, 17 September 2012 (UTC)

West Germany.

Builder details:

• 65.001 - 65.013 1D2t-h2 570x660 1500 107.6 tons Krauss-Maffei 17661 - 17673 / 1951
• 65.014 - 65.018 1D2t-h2 570x660 1500 107.6 tons Krauss-Maffei 17893 - 17897 / 1955

More details are found in many articles in German books and magazines. Too many to be detailed here as sources but for short look see classic: Klaus Gerlach: Dampflok-Archiv published by transpress Berlin (Ost) 1968.

East Germany.

Builder details:

• 65.1001 - 65.1002 1D2t-h2 600x660 1600 113.0 tons LEW 16351 - 16352 / 1954
• 65.1003 - 65.1027 1D2t-h2 600x660 1600 113.0 tons LKM 121001 - 121025 / 1955
• 65.1028 - 65.1072 1D2t-h2 600x660 1600 113.0 tons LKM 121028 - 121072 / 1956
• 65.1073 - 65.1088 1D2t-h2 600x660 1600 113.0 tons LKM 121078 - 121093 / 1957
• LEW = VEB Lokomotivbau Elektrotechnische Werke Hans Beimler
• LKM = VEB Lokomotivbau Karl Marx renamed to LOWA Lokomotivbau Karl Marx

DR Class 83.10

• 83.1001 - 83.1027 1D2t-h2 500x660 1250 92.4 tons LOWA Lokomotivbau Karl Marx (LKM) 122001 - 122027 / 1955

For more details see: Dirk Endsich: Neubau - Dampfloks der Deutschen Reichsbahn, Transpress Verlag, Stuttgart

Norwegian 2-8-4

Some info that I omitted from the Norway heading during revision since I believe it rather belongs in a loco-specific article. Stored here for easy retrieval. André Kritzinger 21:46, 17 September 2012 (UTC)

In summer 1939 the NSB timetable allowed for Class 49 locomotives:

• Trondheim–Støren 52 km (32 mi) 58 minutes with day express train and 54 minutes with sleeping car night express train.
• Støren–Oppdal 71 km (44 mi) 93 minutes and 80 minutes.
• Opdal–Dombås 97 km (60 mi) 112 minutes and 91 minutes.

Hauling the northbound express trains (Oslo - Trondheim):

• Dombås–Opdal 82 minutes with sleeping car night express train and 88 minutes with day express train.
• Opdal–Støren 69 minutes and 74 minutes.
• Støren–Trondheim 54 minutes and 63 minutes.

Builder details:

• NSB 463 Class 49a 1D2-h4v HP 465x650, LP 720x700 1525 100.0 tons Hamar & Thune 377 / 1935 + 16.12.1958
• NSB 464 Class 49aa 1D2-h4v HP 465x650, LP 720x700 1525 100.1 tons Hamar & Thune 378 / 1935 + 20.06.1958
• NSB 465 Class 49b 1D2-h4v HP 465x650, LP 720x700 1525 100.1 tons Hamar & Thune 379 / 1936 + 16.12.1958
• NSB 470 Class 49c 1D2-h4v HP 465x650, LP 720x700 1525 100.4 tons Krupp 2152 / 1940 + 16.12.1958
• NSB 471 Class 49c 1D2-h4v HP 465x650, LP 720x700 1525 100.4 tons Krupp 2153 / 1940 + 16.12.1958
• NSB 472 Class 49c 1D2-h4v HP 465x650, LP 720x700 1525 100.2 tons Thune 409 / 1941 + 16.12.1958
• NSB 473 Class 49c 1D2-h4v HP 465x650, LP 720x700 1525 100.1 tons Thune 410 / 1941 + 16.12.1958

Romanian 2-8-4

Some info that I omitted from the Romania heading during revision since I believe it rather belongs in a loco-specific article. Stored here for easy retrieval. André Kritzinger 22:44, 17 September 2012 (UTC)

Builder details:

• 142.001 - 142.005 1D2-h2 Malaxa 240 - 244 / 1937
• 142.006 - 142.010 1D2-h2 Resita 400 - 404 / 1937
• 142.011 - 142.022 1D2-h2 Malaxa 245 - 256 / 1938
• 142.023 - 142.038 1D2-h2 Resita 405 - 420 / 1938
• 142.039 - 142.042 1D2-h2 Malaxa 257 - 260 / 1938
• 142.043 - 142.051 1D2-h2 Resita 421 - 427 / 1939
• 142.052 - 142.065 1D2-h2 Malaxa 390 - 402 / 1939
• 142.066 - 142.074 1D2-h2 Resita 476 - 484 / 1939
• 142.075 - 142.079 1D2-h2 Malaxa 381 - 385 / 1940

Soviet 2-8-4

Some info that I omitted from the Soviet Union heading during revision since I believe it rather belongs in a loco-specific article. Stored here for easy retrieval. André Kritzinger 21:05, 18 September 2012 (UTC)

On January 1, 1941 class IS20 and IS21 locomotives were allocated to:

• October Railway 46
• Leningrad Railway 8
• Kalinin Railway 10
• Western Railway 58
• Odessa Railway 10
• Moscow - Kursk Railway 59
• Moscow - Donbas Railway 20
• Moscow - Kiev Railway 25
• Penza Railway 17
• Southern Railway 55
• North Donets Railway 7
• South Donets Railway 42
• North Causasus Railway 37
• Caucasus Railway 8
• Kuibyshev Railway 10
• Perm Railway 19
• Northern Railway 19
• Southern Urals Railway 25

• Total 475 Class IS20 and IS21 locomotives on MPS books on January 1, 1941.

Builder details:

• IS20-1 Kolomna ? / 1932 (delivered on 07.10.1932)
• IS20-2 Kolomna ? / 1933
• IS20-3 - IS20-4 ? - ? / Kolomna ? - ? / 1934
• IS20-5 - IS20-6 ? - ? / Voroshilovgrad / 1935
• IS20-7 Voroshilovgrad / ? / 1936 (not on MPS books)
• IS20-8 - IS20-10 / Voroshilovgrad 1936
• IS20-11 - IS20-115 / Voroshilovgrad 1937
• IS20-116 - IS20-247 / Voroshilovgrad 1938
• IS20-248 - IS20-384 / Voroshilovgrad 1939
• IS20-385 - IS20-558 / Voroshilovgrad 1940
• IS20-559 - IS20-632 / Voroshilovgrad 1941
• IS21-633 (Voroshilovgrad) / 1941 (completed by Ulan-Ude Works)
• IS21-634 (Voroshilovgrad) / 1941 (completed by Ulan Ude Works)
• IS20-635 - IS20-641 Voroshilovgrad / 1941
• IS21-642 - IS21-647 (Voroshilovgrad) / 1941 (completed by Ulan Ude Works)
• IS21-648 (Voroshilovgrad) / 1942 (completed by Ulan Ude Works)
• IS21-650 (Voroshilovgrad) / 1941 (completed by Ulan Ude Works)

Unfortunately when the Soviet Union collapsed, the former management destroyed all documents of locomotive production. At the moment (2008) only few Voroshilovgrad works numbers for Class IS20 and IS21 are known.

American 2-8-4

Some info that I omitted from the United States of America heading during revision since I believe it rather belongs in a loco-specific article. Stored here for easy retrieval. André Kritzinger 23:24, 18 September 2012 (UTC)

Preservation

With the success of AMCs design, the Nickel Plate Road (NKP) became synonymous with the Berkshire locomotive type. One of this class, 765, is preserved in operating condition and is operated occasionally on the mainlines of Class I railroads around the United States. NKP 779 is preserved as a static display in Lincoln Park, in Lima, Ohio. Parts from the 779 were used in the general overhaul of the 765, which was completed in 2006. In addition, 759 is stored at the Steamtown National Historic Site, 757 is stored at the Railroad Museum of Pennsylvania, and 755 is stored at the Conneaut Railroad Historical Museum.

In January 2007, the Ohio Central Railroad System purchased NKP 763 from the Virginia Museum of Transportation. The Current owners, as of March 2012, Age of Steam Roundhouse intend on bringing the 763 back to operating status.

Twelve of the Chesapeake and Ohio's "Kanawha" 2-8-4 locomotives are still in existence, with one notable example being 2716. In the early 1980s the engine was rebuilt and briefly operated by the Southern Railway in excursion service, and is today displayed at the Kentucky Railway Museum.

Three other Chesapeake and Ohio Kanawhas are displayed in Virginia; 2732 in Richmond, 2756 in Newport News, and 2760 in Lynchburg. In addition, 2707 is at the Illinois Railway Museum in Union, Illinois. 2789 is being restored at the Hoosier Valley Railroad Museum, and #2755 is on static display in Chief Logan State Park in Logan, West Virginia. The remaining survivors can be found in various states served by the C&O.

Another 2-8-4, Pere Marquette Railway #1225, which occasionally runs in the upper Midwestern US, was used as the basis for the locomotive in the 2004 CGI-animated movie The Polar Express. A sister engine, Pere Marquette #1223, is on display in Grand Haven, Michigan. Because 1223 provided parts in the restoration of 1225, 1223 is no longer operable.

Merge proposal

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section. A summary of the conclusions reached follows.

To merge Berkshire locomotive into 2-8-4; synonyms; content mostly moved prior to discussion close. Klbrain (talk) 17:24, 27 August 2024 (UTC)

---

The 2-8-4 wheel arrangement is known as a Berkshire, but why do we have two articles? The article Berkshire locomotive should redirect to this article. Aitraintheeditorandgamer (talk) 05:21, 4 February 2024 (UTC)

2-8-4 is a type of wheel and Berkshire locomotive is a type of train, right? They're two different things... - OpalYosutebito (talk) 10:42, 4 April 2024 (UTC)

No, they refer to the same thing, the 2-8-4 wheel arrangement of a steam locomotive. "Berkshire" is the colloquial American name for engines of this wheel arrangement. Therailhead1974 (talk) 15:30, 3 May 2024 (UTC)

• Weak oppose. A 'Berkshire' can mean two things (an example of metonymy), either the Lima S-2 class of the Nickel Plate Road or else the 2-8-4 wheel arrangement more generally. The S-2 were the first Berkshires built and took their name from the Berkshire Hills. These were not the only US Berkshires, Lima proceeded with the type and built other class like the N-1, the Baldwin M-1, Alco K-4 and then finally the S-3. These were a particularly wartime loco pattern, both in the USA and in the German Reich: the latest in technical developments, a powerful loco operated by a single crew capable of handling heavy trains without double heading, and with a large grate area to burn low quality coal, hence the trailing bogie rather than the preceding two-wheeled truck of the 2-8-2. Exceptions to this were the Soviet examples and maybe the Norwegians.

Quite an exception to these were the earlier British colonial 2-8-4T tank engines of around 1900, such as the WAGR K class. These were not Berkshires, and have no commonality with them. They were eight-coupled narrow gauge tank locos to achieve the adhesion needed for their power, a simple leading truck to cope with colonial track standards, and a four-wheeled bogie to carry the weight of the bunker, not a large firebox.

Merging would be justified. A Berkshire is a 2-8-4 and the terms are adequately synonymous to justify such a merge. However I don't think this would be for the bet, for a couple of reasons.

The 2-8-4 article, like most of the wheel arrangement articles, is poor. It's a train spotting list of everyone's favourite example, arranged by geography. It conveys almost no encyclopedic information and certainly not any engineering knowledge. In particular, the tank locos and the Berkshires are mixed together, despite having little in common (the South African class 24s are an interesting late cross-over between the two). The 2-8-4 article doesn't highlight the splits between these early tank locos, the first US Berkshires, the Soviet and Norwegian examples, or the later use to support a huge grate. Particularly for Central Europe, where there's little in common between the BBÖ 214 and the DB class 65!

I think there's scope for a good article at Berkshire locomotive on the development of the US Berkshires and their influences into Europe, Japan and Australia. This wouldn't happen in the 2-8-4 article. Although that's unlikely to happen anyway, since editors stopped writing on WP and switched to just being a bureaucracy. Andy Dingley (talk) 12:02, 4 April 2024 (UTC)

Support. North American practice was to give wheel arrangements nicknames, so "Berkshire" and "2-8-4" are synonyms. It is technically correct, in America, to refer to any 2-8-4 locomotive as a "Berkshire" or "Berkshire-type," and there should not be an entirely separate article just for the North American nickname.

In response to Andy's comment above, the Nickel Plate Road S-2s were nowhere near being the first Berkshire-types built in the United States (that would be Lima's A-1 demonstrator), and actually significantly differed in design and role to the Lima A-1. Both are correctly called "Berkshire types" however, and in fact the WAGR K class Andy mentions could even be called a "Berkshire" because it is a 2-8-4. American steam locomotive nicknames/type names make no distinction between size, role, tank vs. tender, etc. and the WAGR K class does in fact share the most important feature with American Berkshires--the 2-8-4 wheel arrangement. The only reason a wheel arrangement would have multiple names in American usage is if an American railroad company chose to refer to that wheel arrangement on their railroad by a different name, even if the design is largely identical to other engines of the type. This can be seen with the Chesapeake & Ohio's "Kanawhas," which are virtually identical to the Pere Marquette's N-class, themselves merely slight enlargements of the Nickel Plate's S-class. A virtually identical design was ordered by the Virginian Railway, which was content to call them "Berkshires."

I have made several edits to the 2-8-4 page to improve its general quality and discussion, at least regarding American development of the type. My edits cover all the information included in the Berkshire page, so I support the merging of the two pages. Therailhead1974 (talk) 15:55, 3 May 2024 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

  Y Merger complete. Klbrain (talk) 17:24, 27 August 2024 (UTC)