Talk:1957 Pescara Grand Prix

Image:Circuit_Pescara.png

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Changed. DH85868993 (talk) 16:51, 30 April 2009 (UTC)

Inaccuracies

"The race, which was the only Formula One race at the track" - inaccurate. It was the only World Championship Formula One race at the track. Non-championship Formula One races are still Formula One races even if it interferes with pat sentences on Wikipedia, which sometimes reads like a Bruce Jones book. Also, Ferrari had no particular concern for his drivers. He was in fact squabbling with the Italian motorsport authorities during one of his usual tantrums (most likely over start money, the reason the Belgian and Dutch races were cancelled and Pescara was promoted to championship status). Luigi Musso (that's him in the race results, driving a Ferrari) managed to talk him into sending a car along, after all, and being Italian Ferrari would have cared a lot more for his safety than that of Hawthorn and Collins. The September '57 issue of Motorsport has the correct explanation in it; the one in the article is curiously uncited. And while I'm here - "The biggest difference was pole sitter Juan Manuel Fangio's time of 9:44.6 compared to Jack Brabham's time of 11:35.2, almost 2 minutes off Fangio's time. This was because many of the drivers on the grid had never driven at Pescara before." - couldn't possibly be to do with Brabham's car giving away a litre in capacity on a track with two massive straights, could it? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 79.79.99.203 (talk) 01:11, 9 October 2013 (UTC)

I've changed it to say "The race, which was the only Formula One World Championship race at the track". DH85868993 (talk) 09:14, 1 November 2013 (UTC)

Official Name

Is there a citation for "XXV Circuito di Pescara"? The contemporary MotorSport magazine article calls in the Pescara Grand Prix, and I can't find any evidence the race was called this. Surely "XXV Gran Premio di Pescara" is more likely? A7V2 (talk) 23:42, 28 January 2019 (UTC)

Mike Lang's Grand Prix! Vol 1 calls it the "XXV° Gran Premio Pescara" (with no "di"). DH85868993 (talk) 08:58, 29 January 2019 (UTC)

Lengths and Distances

I have modfied the circuit length for this actually to make sure it matches up it with the Pescara Circuit's individual wiki page. Race length has also been modified to reflect update dcircuit length. 16.032 miles is the correct circuit length.--MKL123 (talk) 21:54, 14 April 2022 (UTC)

@MKL123: We have a reference already citing the specific length for the 1957 edition. As this is a street circuit, lengths may vary year to year so unless you have a citation specifying something different for this year then I think it's best to leave it as it is currently referenced. FozzieHey (talk) 23:17, 14 April 2022 (UTC)

I updated it as referenced on Motorsport Magazines Database. Please reinstate the reference I provided. MKL123 (talk) 11:17, 15 April 2022 (UTC)

@MKL123: That citation is the circuit as a whole, not the 1957 edition which is already cited. Again, like I said track changes were made for this edition, see the background section and I don't know what year the Motorsport Magazine Database is referring to. I'm going to ping @DH85868993: and @A7V2: to see if they might have any books specifying the length to confirm. Unless you have a specific reason for changing it then you should stop edit warring and actually provide that reason in this discussion. FozzieHey (talk) 11:24, 15 April 2022 (UTC)

I change it because the wiki for the Pescara circuit itself listed the lenth as 16.032 miles where as this article previously had the circuit length at 15.99 miles . I have changed it so both articles match up. MKL123 (talk) 11:48, 15 April 2022 (UTC)

@MKL123: So? It *very* clearly states in the article that the circuit has been changed for 1957

The track was modified to conform with new safety regulations introduced after the accident. A chicane was added at the end of the seafront straight.

. The cited value of 15.99 miles is referenced from a respected author, Richard Williams, who has literally written a book on the 1957 edition. The reference you're citing references the track from 1934 to 1961, which as explained earlier, the track has changed, so how can you be sure that is referring to the 1957 edition? FozzieHey (talk) 11:54, 15 April 2022 (UTC)

Yes I am because the lap record from Motorsport Magazine's database is listed as the fastest lap of Stirling Moss from the 1957 Grand Prix. MKL123 (talk) 12:08, 15 April 2022 (UTC)

@MKL123: There is no indication that the fastest lap is sourced from the same location as the length. Can you explain to me how a circuit can be the exact same length when there has been track changes? FozzieHey (talk) 12:15, 15 April 2022 (UTC)

It says the track record was set in 1957 by Stirling Moss and it is literally the same laptime as listed on the Pescara Circuit wiki page. MKL123 (talk) 12:27, 15 April 2022 (UTC)

I’d rather say the circuit’s page length is the incorrect one then.Tvx1 14:40, 15 April 2022 (UTC)

Motorsport Magazine's lists the lebgth of the circuit used for the 1957 Pescara Grand Prix as 16.032 according to their own database . I have provided new references to support this. MKL123 (talk) 14:56, 15 April 2022 (UTC)

16.032 miles that should be. MKL123 (talk) 14:56, 15 April 2022 (UTC)

@MKL123: Just pointing you towards this discussion on WP:F1 regarding circuit length precision, although not specifically targeted towards this dispute, it is relevant to circuit lengths as a whole. Please stop repeatedly reverting versions of the article (as you did by reverting mine and @Tvx1:'s edits), this may constitute edit warring. FozzieHey (talk) 17:50, 15 April 2022 (UTC)

I own a copy of the book "Mon ami mate" and on page 296 it deals with the 1957 Pescara Grand Prix and it states it took place on a "15,9 miles road course.Tvx1 17:52, 15 April 2022 (UTC)

I found the following sources for the lap length/race distance in 1957:

• Mike Lang's Grand Prix! Vol.1 says Distance: 18 laps of 25.579km = 460.42km (286.009 miles)
• FORIX (subscrpition site) says Perimeter: 25579m, (Race distance) 18 laps, 460.422km
• Sheldon & Rabagliati's A Record of Grand Prix and Voiturette Racing Vol.6 gives the race distance as 18 laps, 286.11 miles, which equates to a lap length of 15.895 miles = 25.580km

So I think there's fairly good evidence that the lap length in 1957 was 25.579km (with Sheldon & Rabagliati's slight discrepancy due to the fact that the race distance is rounded to 2 decimal places). DH85868993 (talk) 23:45, 15 April 2022 (UTC)

Richard Williams in The Last Road Race also gives 25.579km/18.894miles and 460.422km/286.092. William Court in Power and Glory volume 2 gives just the race distances of 286.09miles/460.24km (note it gives .24 not .42, perhaps an error or maybe from going from miles to km). I'd also note that giving three decimals for the race distance is giving excessive/incorrect precision. As an example, if we know to the nearest metre that a circuit is 4.321km long, then we only know that the length of a ten lap race will be 43.21km, not 43.210 (ie to the nearest 10 metres, not 1 metre). Of course this applies to far more articles than just this one but definitely the race distance should only be reported to two decimal places (which is 5 significant figures like we started with). I don't know if this is an instance of this, but it's also not unusual for race distance to be determined not quite by multiplying number of laps by lap length if the first lap doesn't start from right behind the finishing line as was not unusual in the past, and still occurs at Sandown (for major races) for example. A7V2 (talk) 01:18, 16 April 2022 (UTC)

Thanks guys, I think we should change it to 25.579km per lap and 460.42km for the race distance if these sources agree, if anyone could add it with a citation that'd be great! @A7V2: I agree about the precision, and I see that you've raised something similar on the WP discussion so I think we should continue it there. FozzieHey (talk) 07:54, 16 April 2022 (UTC)

I've updated the text and infobox as discussed, using Lang as a reference. DH85868993 (talk) 09:29, 16 April 2022 (UTC)

(edit conflict) My normal go-to book for this is Griffiths, Trevor R. (December 1997) [1992]. Grand Prix: The Complete Guide (3rd ed.). Enderby: Blitz Editions. p. 51. ISBN 1-85605-391-1., which says "18 laps of 15.89 mile/25.58 km circuit". I expect that this is rounded to 2 dp as well, since none of the other races in that book show lengths to 3 dp. --Redrose64 🌹 (talk) 09:39, 16 April 2022 (UTC)