Talk:1940 Mandatory Palestine v Lebanon football match

DYK nomination

The following is an archived discussion of the DYK nomination of the article below. Please do not modify this page. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as this nomination's talk page, the article's talk page or Wikipedia talk:Did you know), unless there is consensus to re-open the discussion at this page. No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was: promoted by Yoninah (talk) 15:12, 22 April 2020 (UTC)

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• Comment or view
• Article history

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• ... that the Lebanon national football team played an association football match in Tel Aviv? Source: RSSSF, Haaretz
  • ALT1:... that the Lebanon national football team's first official match was against Mandatory Palestine? Source: RSSSF (2)
  • ALT2:... that the Lebanon national football team's first official match was played in Tel Aviv? Source: RSSSF (2)

• QPQ: Rachel Rowe

Created by Nehme1499 (talk). Self-nominated at 20:09, 24 March 2020 (UTC).

General: Article is new enough and long enough
New enough: Long enough:

Policy: Article is sourced, neutral, and free of copyright problems
Adequate sourcing: Neutral: Free of copyright violations, plagiarism, and close paraphrasing:

Hook: Hook has been verified by provided inline citation
Cited: - Offline/paywalled citation accepted in good faith Interesting:

QPQ: - Required and not done. The nominator has five DYK credits.
Overall: The first hook should be more interesting/hooky to anyone who knows anything about relations between Israel and Lebanon. You can alternatively have a hook that combines a bit of both, like this: ALT2: ... that the Lebanon national football team's first official match was played in Tel Aviv? feminist (talk) 11:20, 1 April 2020 (UTC)

@Feminist: I think ALT2 works great! I've added the QPQ. Nehme₁₄₉₉ (talk) 13:30, 1 April 2020 (UTC)

for main hook, for ALT1. I can't formally approve a hook I suggested but I don't think ALT2 is sufficiently different from the two original hooks to require a new review. I'll leave the choice to the promoter. feminist (talk) 01:29, 2 April 2020 (UTC)

• Comment to the promoter: it would be a good idea to feature this DYK on 27 April, as it would mark the 80th anniversary of the match. Nehme₁₄₉₉ (talk) 19:48, 7 April 2020 (UTC)

• In that case, we should add this wording:
• ALT1a:... that the Lebanon national football team's first official match 80 years ago today was against Mandatory Palestine?
• ALT2a: ... that the Lebanon national football team's first official match was played 80 years ago today in Tel Aviv?
• Please run at 12:00 UTC. Yoninah (talk) 00:22, 19 April 2020 (UTC)

for both ALT1a and ALT2a or a combination of both. --- C&C (Coffeeandcrumbs) 00:40, 19 April 2020 (UTC)

GA Review

This review is transcluded from Talk:1940 Mandatory Palestine v Lebanon football match/GA1. The edit link for this section can be used to add comments to the review.

Reviewer: Usernameunique (talk · contribs) 04:15, 7 April 2020 (UTC)

Lead

• and the former's last (under British control) — It doesn't look like the parenthetical nuance is in the body of the article.

The Mandatory Palestine national football team (Mandatory Palestine) is the national football team of Mandatory Palestine. FIFA considers the Israel national football team (Israel) the successor team of Mandatory Palestine. Thus, the idea is that obviously Israel didn't stop playing football, but the match v Lebanon is their last under the name "Mandatory Palestine". Nehme₁₄₉₉ (talk) 14:37, 7 April 2020 (UTC)

I think this is now adequately addressed in the new section, where it mentions Israel as the successor team.

Background

• the Mandatory Palestine players were invited to tea and cake — Who invited them?

Haaretz states: "14 players received a telegram [...] they sipped a cup of tea or coffee and received a brief explanation of the game against Lebanon the next day." The Israel Football Association states: "On the eve of the game, players were invited to tea and cake at a cafe on Rothschild Boulevard for a conversation and explanation." I would imagine that the federation had invited the players, but this is all the info I could find. Nehme₁₄₉₉ (talk) 14:37, 7 April 2020 (UTC)

• They were told that each player had to go to the locker room at the stadium on their own, with their own soccer shoes. The players did not train for the game and, in the small dressing room, only 14 received the light-blue-and-white kit. — Was this unusual? Considering that this was likely close to recreational occupation for the players, it doesn't sound that surprising to me.

I wouldn't know, as I am not an expert on 1940s football. Anyway this info seems to be present in more than one source, so I thought it would be an interesting detail to note (irregardless of whether or not it was common practice at the time). Nehme₁₄₉₉ (talk) 14:37, 7 April 2020 (UTC)

Match

• and Mandatory Palestine's last — Perhaps you could add some information here about their other games, e.g., "; they had lost each of their prior four matches."

 Done Nehme₁₄₉₉ (talk) 14:37, 7 April 2020 (UTC)

• About 10,000 spectators ... came to watch the game — One of the sources says 9,000. Any reason for the discrepancy?

No idea why. I would rather rely on contemporary sources saying 10,000. Maybe they thought that "about 10,000" meant <10,000, therefore 9,000-ish. Nehme₁₄₉₉ (talk) 14:37, 7 April 2020 (UTC)

• This was followed by a penalty kick — From the penalty box? Is the reason for the kick known (i.e., what was the foul)?

The Palestine Post just states: "Schneiderovich scored from the 12-yard spot." The nature of the foul is unknown. Nehme₁₄₉₉ (talk) 14:37, 7 April 2020 (UTC)

• Looks like there are some details you can add about the third goal (ran around the defense; into an empty net)

 Done Nehme₁₄₉₉ (talk) 14:37, 7 April 2020 (UTC)

• After that goal, the Lebanese coach asked Mandatory Palestine coach Arthur Baar to go easy — How does the source describe this? Was that a common request at the time? When teams take it down a notch in blowouts nowadays, it seems to be by tacit rather than overt agreement.

Not sure whether or not is was common at the time, but Haaretz states "At this point [after Mandatory Palestine's 5th goal], the Lebanese national team coach talked with Barr [Mandatory Palestine coach]. Beer later said that his Lebanese counterpart sought to maintain good relations between Lebanon and Israel, and not to defeat them in a harsh and disgraceful manner. Indeed, from that moment, the Eretz Israel players began to play across the field, and they didn't score past the Lebanese goal."

That's pretty interesting—especially as it suggests a geopolitical element to the request—and I would think worth adding. But let me know if you disagree.

 Done Nehme₁₄₉₉ (talk) 19:38, 7 April 2020 (UTC)

• Any word on what Fuchs's injury was? I had thought it was relatively minor until reading the part about taking him to the hospital.

No idea. You have to take into consideration that these were the 1940s, and what we would consider minor today might have been "hospital-worthy" back then. Also, I would imagine that no medics were present on the field, so maybe having to directly go to the hospital was the only solution (however grave the injury was). Nehme₁₄₉₉ (talk) 19:38, 7 April 2020 (UTC)

Details

• Any reason "Tripoli" isn't red-linked?

To date there are three Tripoli-based clubs, that I know of. AC Tripoli, founded in 2005, Al Egtmaaey Tripoli SC, founded in 1956, and Al Riyada Wal Adab Club, founded in 1930. Obviously it's very likely that the latter is the candidate to be the "Tripoli" the source is referring to. But I would rather not fall into WP:OR. What do you think? Nehme₁₄₉₉ (talk) 14:37, 7 April 2020 (UTC)

That makes total sense to me, thanks for the explanation.

Overall

• Nice article, Nehme1499. It would be nice to have a short section discussing analysis of the game; for instance, the "Lebanon Outclassed by Palestine Selected" article contains some post-match analysis that could easily be worked in (e.g., "the game did not come up to expectations"; "a rather one-sided match"; "The goalie ... saved brilliantly on several occasions. The goals that did get past him would have beaten any custodian.") Other than that, just minor comments above. --Usernameunique (talk) 04:15, 7 April 2020 (UTC)

@Usernameunique:  Done. Thanks for starting the nomination so early! I never expected someone to be this interested ahaha. I'm sure that the various sentences I added need a bit of "refining", so just let me know what to change. Nehme₁₄₉₉ (talk) 14:37, 7 April 2020 (UTC)

My pleasure, Nehme1499. It's a really nice article, and well done on the new section. I've added one suggestion and one question above. I'm basically happy to pass it as-is, but figured I'd give you a chance to respond to those points first. --Usernameunique (talk) 19:29, 7 April 2020 (UTC)

@Usernameunique: I should have taken care of everything now. Nehme₁₄₉₉ (talk) 19:38, 7 April 2020 (UTC)

Looks great, Nehme1499. Passing now. --Usernameunique (talk) 19:40, 7 April 2020 (UTC)

Palestine team was allmajority Jewish

Nehme1499, according to this source, the Palestinian team was all Jewish including the coach Arthur Baar. I think this is notable and interesting. Should this not be mentioned? --- C&C (Coffeeandcrumbs) 01:07, 19 April 2020 (UTC)

@Coffeeandcrumbs: To be fair it says "the majority of the team was Jewish". I think it would be more appropriate in the article of the team (Mandatory Palestine national football team), rather than in this particular article. Under which section do you think it should be included? Nehme₁₄₉₉ (talk) 01:14, 19 April 2020 (UTC)

Nehme1499, I think it should mentioned in the background that there were no Arabs participating in the game between Lebanon and Palestine. This seems notable. --- C&C (Coffeeandcrumbs) 01:56, 19 April 2020 (UTC)

@Coffeeandcrumbs: The "no Arab player took part in this game" is a bit misleading, as I'm sure it's only referring to the Palestine national team. I've added a clarification, noting that the Palestine NT players were "mostly Jewish". Nehme₁₄₉₉ (talk) 02:05, 19 April 2020 (UTC)

Nehme1499, thank you. That should be sufficient. --- C&C (Coffeeandcrumbs) 02:12, 19 April 2020 (UTC)

@Coffeeandcrumbs: No problem. By the way, I've submitted a Peer Review for the article as I'm looking to promote it to FA. Maybe you could give your opinion, if you're interested? Thanks, Nehme₁₄₉₉ (talk) 02:23, 19 April 2020 (UTC)

Official name of the Palestine team

The newspaper image calls it “Palestine Selected”. Do we know what the official name of the team was? I am certain it was not “Mandatory Palestine”. Onceinawhile (talk) 23:00, 22 April 2020 (UTC)

At the time it was "Palestine". But, given that Palestine national football team is a different thing, the best name would be Mandatory Palestine national football team, the national football team of Mandatory Palestine. Nehme₁₄₉₉ (talk) 23:10, 22 April 2020 (UTC)

I agree, that makes sense. I just wonder what the name “selected” means. Perhaps Lebanon required that, to highlight that they were not playing against a representative team? And were Lebanon making a similar point by calling themselves “All Lebanon”? Sorry for the speculation – it was a very interesting time. Onceinawhile (talk) 23:44, 22 April 2020 (UTC)

@Onceinawhile: the word "select [team]" to refer to a "national team" is obsolete in English, but it's still used in latin-based languages ("La selezione Italiana", or "Seleção Brasileira"). I would guess that in the 1940s calling national teams "select" was somewhat the norm. Unsure about "All Lebanon", but I know that "Beirut XI" (Beirut Eleven) was a thing back then: an unofficial "select" team comprising of the best from Beirut. "All" Lebanon is because other team[s] were included (the goalkeeper is from Tripoli). These are all terms that wouldn't be used today, but were probably common during those times. Nehme₁₄₉₉ (talk) 23:49, 22 April 2020 (UTC)