Talk:16 March 2022 Chernihiv breadline attack

Merger proposal

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

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It has been suggested this page be merged with Siege of Chernihiv, notably by User:Curbon7. I think this article warrants its own coverage (see similar articles about civilian attacks during the war). Brad (talk) 21:26, 17 March 2022 (UTC)

@Curbon7: Brad (talk) 21:26, 17 March 2022 (UTC)

With respect Brad, this is really not a notable event, per WP:NOTNEWS. Certain other events, like the major hospital bombings surpass NOTNEWS because of the impact and breadth of their coverage, due to how extraordinary they are. However, as sad as it is, the death of 10 civilians would be a routine news event during such a war. I mean, something like 2000 civies have died so far. Curbon7 (talk) 21:32, 17 March 2022 (UTC)

Merge (pending possible WP:HEYMANN) For the moment the two sources of info we have (reported by multiple media) are the US Embassy and Chaus; Chaus says there was a shelling which is credible; the US Embassy says that Russian forces shot the people queuing for bread, without saying that the Russian forces were snipers. The US Embassy version doesn't make sense in terms of Chernihiv currently being unoccupied by Russian invaders. This makes the sourcing currently a bit weak. The article title is also a bit odd, given that the 2022 Chernihiv bombing mostly killed people lining up for bread. The Russian claim of no Russian forces being in Chernihiv is currently credible. Boud (talk) 21:43, 17 March 2022 (UTC)

Just to reword that more carefully now that there's a claim of snipers (by a source, not by me): The Russian claim of no Russian forces being in Chernihiv is currently credible in the sense of no overt Russian military vehicles and soldiers on the streets, but possibly misleading since a few Russian snipers sneaking in would still count as Russian military forces. Boud (talk) 00:56, 18 March 2022 (UTC)

Oppose merge WP:HEYMANN Article better developed now. A standalone article is now justified. Boud (talk) 00:41, 19 March 2022 (UTC)

• Comment I will attempt a more extensive expansion of this article tomorrow. But I note it has received some notable coverage by the US embassy and a Russian major general who's a spokeman of the Ministry of Defense. I don't imagine these two react at every single event involving the murder of civilians in Ukraine. The event by itself is already pretty scandalous, how come Russian soldiers seemingly randomly shot at civilians waiting on a breadline? It probably constitutes a war crime which increases its notability. I am also seeing a lot of coverage by notable sources. But we will see how does this article end up in the future. Maybe there indeed isn't much information to cover. Super Ψ Dro 21:57, 17 March 2022 (UTC)

By the way, an American citizen might have died on this incident [1]. Super Ψ Dro 22:03, 17 March 2022 (UTC)

Independently of geographical bias in Wikipedia, that's likely to attract a lot of media attention, so notability will go up, and a merge would be less justified. Boud (talk) 00:56, 18 March 2022 (UTC)

I look forward to seeing your good work tomorrow Curbon7 (talk) 22:15, 17 March 2022 (UTC)

The article has been expanded. It now has more sources than any other Russian crime committed in Ukraine on this invasion with the exception of the Mariupol hospital airstrike article. Thus, I oppose the merge. Super Ψ Dro 21:00, 18 March 2022 (UTC)

Oppose merge because it seems a notably well-covered event; the only gripe I have is that it's not described as a massacre regularly so the title seems a bit off. Dunutubble (talk) (Contributions) 14:55, 18 March 2022 (UTC)

Noting that there are sources describing this as a massacre [2]. Super Ψ Dro 19:43, 18 March 2022 (UTC)

WP:DAILYMIRROR. Dunutubble (talk) (Contributions) 03:09, 19 March 2022 (UTC)

• Oppose the article was expanded and now has a total of 19 sources. Super Ψ Dro 21:00, 18 March 2022 (UTC)
• Oppose this article warrants its own coverage.--3E1I5S8B9RF7 (talk) 13:44, 6 April 2022 (UTC)
• Support per nom. BobNesh (talk) 14:58, 31 March 2022 (UTC)
• Support merge It isn't the number of sources, it's the amount of content. The subject is much better incorporated within the siege article. This incident is one of the most 'covered' events in that siege and unless a great deal more becomes known about the event, or 'fall-out' from the event, it is better covered within the siege article. Pincrete (talk) 16:00, 3 April 2022 (UTC)

• Support I cleaned it up a little, removed superfluous content, and really not much is left. It became a big news story at first as it was reported as a shooting of civilians. Now that it is known that it was a shelling, it is still awful, but not nearly as notable. AdrianHObradors (talk) 09:25, 13 April 2022 (UTC)
• Oppose significant enough with independent coverage to merit stand alone article. Volunteer Marek 13:54, 15 April 2022 (UTC)
• Comment i think this should instead be merged with 3 March 2022 Chernihiv bombing and renamed to "2022 Bombings of Chernihiv" or a similar name, as both were bombings in march and on the same city (with less coverage than the ones in mariupol), and so are in the same scope. 2804:14D:4482:46D:A00B:B77E:8E98:2EBC (talk) 22:57, 22 August 2022 (UTC)
• Oppose agreed with Volunteer Marek.Jebiguess (talk) 22:00, 1 October 2022 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Informal title discussion

The 2022 Chernihiv bombing article is primarily about a breadline massacre in Chernihiv in 2022 (of about 47 people mostly queuing to buy bread). So if the 16 March breadline massacre article remains unmerged, then a less confusing name would have to be chosen - e.g. the 16 March 2022 Chernihiv breadline massacre. Boud (talk) 21:45, 17 March 2022 (UTC)

We could then rename this article to something like "Chernihiv breadline shooting". I already started a RM on the bombing article and it might get a new title, I'd appreciate participation there. Super Ψ Dro 21:57, 17 March 2022 (UTC)

So far we don't have a street location for this event, so associating a street name (as I suggested over there) is not (yet?) possible here. As for massacre vs shooting, I don't think that solves the problem that breadline is ambiguous, since it covers both of the two massacres. Boud (talk) 01:19, 18 March 2022 (UTC)

Requested move 18 March 2022

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

The result of the move request was: page moved to the alternate title of 16 March 2022 Chernihiv breadline attack. Dunutubble (talk) (Contributions) 16:30, 3 April 2022 (UTC)

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Chernihiv breadline massacre → Chernihiv breadline shooting – This is not widely referred to as a "massacre," so the title feels inappropriate as per WP:COMMONNAME. As noted above there was also a previous attack on a breadline this month, so "shooting" would be a more preferable terminology in order to avoid confusion. Dunutubble (talk) (Contributions) 15:01, 18 March 2022 (UTC)

• Weak support (see below) The proposed new name is better than the current name. In terms of Wikipedia precedents, for consistency, the massacre articles for the ongoing Tigray genocide that have survived as standalone articles generally have 100 to 1000 people extrajudicially executed per article. The case is different to Ukraine, though, because the extremely tight telephone/internet/physical access blockade on Tigray Region means that mainstream media and major international human rights organisations (and official investigations) have only been able to report on the tip of the iceberg. I do think a better name should be possible, especially once more information comes out such as the location. The claims of the event will become more credible (falsifiable) if the location and time are known. Boud (talk) 15:49, 18 March 2022 (UTC)
• Support an improvement. Super Ψ Dro 18:59, 18 March 2022 (UTC)

Or perhaps "Chernihiv breadline shelling" could be better? Super Ψ Dro 21:03, 18 March 2022 (UTC)

The sources disagree if it was shelling or sniping. Boud (talk) 00:37, 19 March 2022 (UTC)

Doesn't the same problem arise with "shooting"? Super Ψ Dro 09:07, 19 March 2022 (UTC)

Yes, you're right. Sniping is shooting, but shelling is not normally what people will think of when they see the word "shooting" in this context, even if technically, shelling is just shooting with a much bigger piece of machinery and warhead. The current state of the article from two Ukrainian-language sources says that it was a shooting from heavy artillery. We now have a time for the event, but no street location. I think that Chernihiv breadline shooting is currently the best name we have, although 16 March Chernihiv breadline massacre or 16 March Chernihiv breadline shooting would also seem good to me, to distinguish from the other article. Boud (talk) 20:40, 19 March 2022 (UTC)

@Boud: - How would the name 16 March Chernihiv breadline attack sound? Dunutubble (talk) (Contributions) 21:45, 25 March 2022 (UTC)

@Dunutubble, Super Dromaeosaurus, and Mzajac: - Excellent solution! Support (see below). Whether it was a shelling, heavy artillery or snipers, these are all covered by "attack". I'll bold it here for convenience for whoever does the close: 16 March Chernihiv breadline attack. Boud (talk) 23:12, 25 March 2022 (UTC)

I can support that, but why only add the day and month? Is this standard practice in Wikipedia? Super Ψ Dro 08:46, 26 March 2022 (UTC)

We could search in WP:MOS. I assume that when an event is sufficiently notable over a many-decade time scale, then day-month is what the event gets known by in some cases, when "everyone" (scholars, media, school textbooks) knows what year is being referred to. That doesn't apply in this case: we have no idea whether in the long term this will be one of the most notable events of the invasion (or whether this invasion will be limited to 2022 alone). Here's an arbitrary, non-systematic survey to see Wikipedia practice:

• day-month: 1 April attacks (Cyprus), 17 July Revolution, 1 July police stabbing, 14 July Revolution
• day-month redirects: 14 February revolution, 17 February movement
• day-month-year: 12 February 2007 Baghdad bombings, 10 February 2007 protest in Kosovo, 19 March 2013 Iraq attacks, 18 April 2007 Baghdad bombings, 12 April 1993 Srebrenica shelling, 19 January 2015 DRC protests, 14 January 2012 Basra bombing, 18 July 2012 Damascus bombing

In my arbitrary survey, only one article for a recent event has a non-redirected day-month title: 1 July police stabbing; the other three are from 1955, 1958, 1968, with over half a century for a common name to emerge. So I'm switching to: Support: 16 March 2022 Chernihiv breadline attack. Boud (talk) 13:30, 26 March 2022 (UTC)

Okay. —Michael Z. 15:46, 26 March 2022 (UTC)

Are we suspecting that there will be more Chernihiv breadline attacks that need to be disambiguated by their full date? If not, "Chernihiv breadline attack" seems far less clunky to me. Phiarc (talk) 16:42, 26 March 2022 (UTC)

The 2022 Chernihiv bombing killed many people on a breadline. A bombing can also easily be called an "attack", so date disambiguation is necessary. Support 16 March 2022 Chernihiv breadline attack. It seems this is the best title available so far. Super Ψ Dro 17:24, 27 March 2022 (UTC)

• Comment  Is it a shooting or shelling? The article mentions “snipers” but also “heavy artillery.” If we can’t determine the noun to fulfil the WP:CRITERION of precision, then I am okay with “massacre,” which is objectively accurate. Soon we’ll have to start Category:Russian attacks on breadlines. —Michael Z. 21:38, 25 March 2022 (UTC)

According to most recent sources, that was probably a bomb, but again, there is definitely contradiction in sources. My very best wishes (talk) 04:06, 26 March 2022 (UTC)

Oppose the proposed title as there is uncertainty over whether it was purely a shooting or not, however I do think a change is necessary. Support a move to an "attack" title, whether containing the date or not I have no preference. Buttons0603 (talk) 17:04, 27 March 2022 (UTC)

• Support per nom. BobNesh (talk) 14:59, 31 March 2022 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Fix the perpetrator

Despite the wiki page referring to this as an attack orchestrated by russia, on the "perpetrators" part in the box to the right the Ukrainian Armed Forces are cited as the perpetrator. This needs to be fixed. Dacrota (talk) 19:37, 28 September 2022 (UTC)