Talk:12 (number)

Flag of the European Union

Until today, the page said:

Twelve stars are also featured on the flag of the European Union.

The page now says:

Until 1 May 2004, twelve stars were featured on the flag of the European Union.

However, the official graphical specifications for the European Emblem say

The number of stars is fixed, twelve being the symbol of perfection and unity.

and

[The stars'] number is invariable.

So unless I've misunderstood, the change in the Wikipedia article would seem to be erroneous.

Thanks for pointing that out to me. Wasn't aware of that, sorry, and they (the news) had other designs lately (like an outer ring with twelve, and an inner ring with 10 stars). But maybe they also didn't read that source... :) --Palapala 22:12, 2004 May 2 (UTC)

Duodecimal system

I'd like to know, for what reason part of this section was deleted lately: "Etymology (Weekley, Skeat) suggests that "twelve" (similar to "eleven") consists of two parts, the first meaning "two" and the second "leftover", so a literal translation would yield "two remaining [after having ten taken]", thus strongly indicating the use of a duodecimal system." --Palapala 07:11, 2004 Jul 1 (UTC)

Sorry, that was my doing. Anyhow, it is "two left over from ten". The word for "twelve" was derived from ten; nothing is derived from twelve itself, as one would expect in a duodecimal system. We continue right along with "thirteen", transparently "three" + "ten", again based on ten. In fact, tracing the etymology all the way back to the Proto-Indo-European language, there are etmya for "ten" (*dekm) and even "hundred" (*kmtom), but no single reconstructible expression for "twelve". So although in specialized uses English may have its "dozens" and "grosses", the core of the language has been decimal as far back as we can reconstruct. Do you know of a source proposing this duodecimal system? 4pq1injbok 02:23, 3 Jul 2004 (UTC)

Did some more reading; agree with you — looks like they have in Lithuanian not only 11 and 12, but 11–19 built the same way [left over from ten] which completely destroys the argument... --Palapala 09:15, 2004 Jul 3 (UTC)

colorblind test

the Ishihara colour test is very interesting, but it seems to me that the standard version of the test doesnt require 12 to be the first plate, the one that everyone can see. Looking at websites and paper encyclopedias i've seen 25 and 52 used too. Numerao 20:15, 1 Sep 2004 (UTC)

We need to know if Ishihara wrote a standard and if it says anything about which numbers ought or should be used. If the standard does not name specific numbers, then it might still be interesting to note which numbers Ishihara himself used for the test and why he chose them. But if he chose them randomly and the standard makes no recommendation as to which numbers to use, then this should not included in the number articles. Anton Mravcek 19:55, 2 Sep 2004 (UTC)

Controversy

Twelve's factor ability and popularity in some calendar, geometric, and religious circles make it a target for PROV heavy claims regarding what can only be called an integer. Should this page be semi-protected? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 64.142.38.174 (talk) 06:11, 5 August 2009 (CUT)

the most familiar being the Etruscan League

More familiar than a Lydian/Persian located in the actual cradle of the Western Civilization? Furthermore, perhaps might be relevant a mention of 12 relating with agriculture (versus fingers for 10).