Susan "Suzie" Miller (born 1963 or 1964) is an Australian playwright, librettist, screenwriter, and lawyer. She has written over 40 plays, first coming to notice in 2008 for Reasonable Doubt, which premiered at the Edinburgh Festival Fringe. Her most well-known play is being Prima Facie, which was staged in a West End theatre in London starring Jodie Comer in April 2022, a production which won two Olivier Awards, three years after a highly successful run in Sydney in 2019.
Suzie Miller | |
---|---|
Born | 1963 or 1964 (age 60–61) Melbourne, Australia |
Education | Monash University (BSc) University of New South Wales (LLB) National Institute of Dramatic Art (MA) Queensland University of Technology (PhD) |
Notable works | Prima Facie |
Spouse | Robert Beech-Jones |
Children | 2 |
Early life and education
editSusan Miller[1] was born in Melbourne, Australia,[2] in 1963 or 1964. She was very close to her mother, Elaine who died in May 2019. Her family was a large, working-class Catholic family,[3] and she grew up in St Kilda, a suburb which housed many immigrants. She attended the local Catholic school, where many of the children were Italian, Greek, Mauritian, and Indian.[4] One of her grandmothers was an actress in musical theatre and piano player in silent films.[5]
The family moved to Arnhem Land in the Northern Territory for some time when her father worked there,[4] as an engineer in an aluminium mine.[5] Her mother was visually impaired, but very community-minded, becoming mayor of St Kilda. She played chess with her father, who was keen on mathematics and science,[6] and also wrote plays as a child.[5]
The first in her family to go to university,[6] Miller studied immunology and microbiology at Monash University in Melbourne, but rejected the opportunity to undertake a Phd in science. After a gap year in London,[7] which she spent in a large run-down share house with filmmakers and some of Boy George's backing dancers as flatmates,[3] she decided to do a law degree at the University of New South Wales in Sydney,[2] starting in 1987,[5] and did not return to Melbourne after that.[3]
In 1995, while working as a lawyer, Miller studied at UNSW for a master's degree in theatre and film. After having to take a long break from both to recover after being struck down by viral encephalitis, she returned to work and completed her master's.[7] In 2000 she undertook the now-defunct Playwrights Studio program at the National Institute of Dramatic Art (NIDA),[5] working part-time as a lawyer as well as writing plays.[7]
At some point later, she lived in Beechmont, Queensland for around 18 months while undertaking a PhD at Queensland University of Technology,[8] completed in June 2020. Her thesis was entitled "The mathematics of longing: Exploring the interface between science and theatre by translating mathematical theorems into a play script", for which she created the play The Mathematics of Longing.[1]
Career
editEarly career
editMiller first worked for top corporate law firm Freehills (now Herbert Smith Freehills), at the same time joining the Actors Centre.[3] After 18 months at Freehills, finding it boring, she went to work for the Aboriginal Legal Service in Redfern.[3][7] After that she worked for the Public Interest Advocacy Centre (and studied for her MA at UNSW), having to take a long break to recover from serious illness in 1995.[7]
In July 1997 she performed in Open 97 at The Performance Space in Redfern.[9]
After getting married and while on maternity leave, Miller worked part-time at Shopfront Youth Legal Centre, a community legal centre funded by Freehills. Here she had to deal with a lot of crises and emergencies, as well as many sexual assault cases. She drew on these experiences when writing Cross Sections. During this time (2000) she was also studying at NIDA,[7][3][5]
Miller's first play, Cross Sections was based on contemporary stories from the experience of working as a lawyer for homeless youth in Sydney's red-light district (Kings Cross). It premiered at the Old Fitz Theatre in 2004 before transferring to Sydney Opera House.[7][5][9] A radio version of the play directed by Chris Mead was broadcast by ABC Radio National on 9 December 2012,[10]
An early work, Reasonable Doubt, premiered at the 2008 Edinburgh Festival Fringe at the Assembly Rooms (Edinburgh) directed by Guy Masterson, starring Peter Phelps and Emma Jackson.[11] and New York Fringe Festival at Cherry Lane Theatre, also in 2008, directed by Lee Lewis,[12] where it won the New York Fringe Overall Excellence Award for Outstanding Playwriting.[13] The play features two characters who have just served on a jury and are now meeting for a date night.[14] It runs for around 60[15] to 75 minutes,[14] and was described by one reviewer as "quite a rollercoaster ride".[15] It has been staged several times since then, including at the Bakehouse Theatre in Adelaide in 2018[15][16] and at the Holden Street Theatres in 2022.[17]
She has said that in general the UK and Europe are far more supportive of writers than Australia (although in some London theatre circles they see Australians as "racist and misogynistic" and "don't think Australia has a real arts culture[3]). Her 2008 play Reasonable Doubt was turned down by the Belvoir in Sydney but went on to be a hit at the Edinburgh Fringe and in New York.[7][3]
As a full-time playwright
editAfter spending years writing plays part-time while continuing to work as a lawyer, in 2009 she was offered a job as a magistrate and almost simultaneously offered a one-year residency at the Royal National Theatre in London. She decided to become a full-time playwright at this point. Her children were both in primary school at the time, and her husband was then a QC and not keen to make the move, but they rented out their Sydney house and moved to London in 2010. He continued to fly back and forth for work. After the family's return to Sydney, Miller flew to London every few months to work on her plays.[7]
She became more widely known with Prima Facie, a legal term meaning "at first sight",[18] or "based on first impression".[19][a]
Prima Facie is a one-woman play first staged by Griffin Theatre Company in Sydney in 2019, with Sheridan Harbridge taking the stage in a production directed by Lee Lewis.[21][5] The COVID-19 pandemic shut down live performances for most of the following two years, but when theatres reopened, the play toured nationally.[3][5] The play, which deals with how poorly women victims of sexual assault were treated in court, was a hit with audiences, women in the legal profession, media, and British producer James Bierman showed interest.[7] A production of the play by Empire Street Productions,[22] directed by Justin Martin and starring Jodie Comer was staged at the Harold Pinter Theatre[23] in London's West End in 2022,[24] followed by a run on Broadway.[3] Another production was staged in 2023 by the State Theatre Company South Australia in April/May 2023, starring Caroline Craig.[3] The 2022 production of the play at the Harold Pinter Theatre was filmed as a National Theatre Live production and shown in cinemas around the world.[25][26] It is also being adapted as a feature film, with actress Cynthia Erivo set to play the role of Tessa, to be directed by Susanna White.[27][8]
Miller's plays are all centred around some kind of social justice issue. By April 2022, she had written 40 plays.[7] Prima Facie has been translated into 25 languages, and performed around the world in many languages.[8]
In November 2022, her play about American Supreme Court justice Ruth Bader Ginsburg, RBG: Of Many, One Wharf 1 Theatre by the Sydney Theatre Company, starring Heather Mitchell.[28] The play is being reworked for a New York production.[29]
Miller reworked Prima Facie into a novel, which was published in 2023.[29][30]
In July 2023, Jailbaby, "Prima Facie's spiritual successor" premiered at Griffin's Stables Theatre. Although Guardian reviewer Cassie Tongue gave it a middling review,[31] the season sold out and the play returned in January 2024.[32] The play's theme is the over-representation of Indigenous Australians in prison.[33] Miller has indicated that it is the second of a trilogy of plays.[29]
As of 2023[update] Miller was working on a play commissioned by the National Theatre, in which a judge's son is accused of rape,[34] called Inter Alia. She has also been working on the film of Prima Facie being shot in London; and two television series,[3] including an adaptation of Heather Rose's novel Bruny. Other film projects include Dust, like Prima Facie, being produced by Bunya Productions; Life's Too Short (Hoodlum); and Creatures of Mayhem (Matchbox Pictures).[35]
Other activities
editMiller is a member of PEN International, a human rights organisation representing writers in countries where they are punished for speaking out.[4] She is a member of the theatre committee of the Australian Writers' Guild and on the boards of various theatre companies.[36][22] In 2010, she was on the board of State of Play as well as PlayWriting Australia, and was a member of the artistic advisory boards of both Theatre Royal Sydney theatre company and Inscription.[37]
She works with the Justice Reform Initiative, run by former Labor politician Robert Tickner, giving lectures to judges, barristers, and anyone interested in law reform.[29]
In October 2023, Miller appeared at the Calile Hotel in Fortitude Valley, Brisbane, as part of a series of curated events and collaborations called the Calile Culture program.[8]
In early 2024, Miller attended the WOW Festival in Greece, appeared at two events at the Sydney Writers' Festival in May 2024,[29][38] and presented at the Brisbane Writers Festival.[39]
As of 2023[update], with her offspring in their early twenties, Miller lives among three cities: Sydney, London, and New York, but likes to get to the family apartment at Burleigh Heads, on the Gold Coast of Queensland, and Brisbane, when possible.[8]
Awards and recognition
editPlaywriting awards
editMiller received the 2005 Theatrelab Award,[40] to develop the play SOLD with Cicely Berry of the Royal Shakespeare Company.[37]
All the Blood and All the Water won the Inscription/Theatrelab Script Development Award and was shortlisted for the 2006 Rodney Seaborn Award. It was staged at the Riverside Theatres Parramatta and Casula Powerhouse in Sydney in 2008.[37][35][41] As part of Inscription awards in 2006 and 2009, Miller was mentored by US playwright Edward Albee.[41][22]
In 2008, she received the 2008 Kit Denton Fellowship for writing with courage.[42][22]
In 2008 Miller's play Reasonable Doubt won one of four awards for Overall Excellence Award for Outstanding Playwriting at the New York Fringe Festival.[13][22]
She was shortlisted for the Griffin Award in 2009[5] and Transparency was nominated for the 2010 Australian Writers' Guild Award in the Theatre: Stage category.[43]
Miller's radio adaptation of Cross Sections won the AWGIE Award for Radio Adaptation in 2013.[44]
Dust (2014) won the Western Australian Premier's Book Award for Script in 2016.[36]
The Griffin Theatre Company production of Prima Facie won the 2020 AWGIE Award for Drama and the 2020 Major AWGIE Award from the Australian Writers' Guild.[45] For the 2022 production at the Harold Pinter Theatre in London, Miller won the 2023 Laurence Olivier Award for Best New Play and Jodie Comer won the Olivier Award for Best Actress for her performance.[46] At the 2020 AWGIE Awards awarded by the Australian Writers' Guild, Prima Facie won the AWGIE Award for Stage,[22] Major AWGIE Award (across all categories of theatre, film, and television)[47] as well as the David Williamson Prize for Excellence in Writing for Australian Theatre.[6]
Residencies and fellowships
editMiller had two residencies at the National Theatre in London, in 2011 and 2009, and at Griffin Theatre in Sydney in 2012.[36] She was attached to Ex Machina in Quebec, Canada, with Robert Lepage in 2012.[36]
In 2014, she was artist in residence at the National Theatre of Scotland, and in 2015 and 2016 with La Boite in Brisbane.[36]
In 2018, she was appointed Drama Creative Fellow at the University of Queensland, giving students playwriting masterclasses and a guest lecture.[48] In the same year, the script of Prima Facie won the Griffin Award.[20]
Ongoing impact
editIn 2023, a judge emailed Miller to let her know that they had redrafted their directions to the jury in sexual assault cases, and had included some of the words about witness recollections from Prima Facie. She has also received thousands of messages from sexual assault survivors,[34] and lawyers who have seen the play.[24]
In 2024, the Suzie Miller Award was established by the Griffin Theatre Company, for mid-career playwrights.[49]
Personal life
editWhile working at the Aboriginal Legal Centre, Miller met and later married Robert Beech-Jones, with whom she had two children.[3][7][50] He was also a lawyer, later becoming a judge[3] in the NSW Supreme Court.[5]
She is friends with writer Hilary Bell and Governor General of Australia Sam Mostyn, and godmother to 14 children.[7]
As of 2022[update] Miller was living between London and Sydney.[2]
Selected works
editMiller's works include (by premiere date):
- 2000: Births Deaths Marriages, written in the NIDA playwriting studio and performed as a playreading; selected for the Australian National Playwrights Conference in 2001.[4]
- 2005: Cross Sections premiered at the Old Fitz Theatre before transferring to Sydney Opera House in 2005[7] (adapted for radio 2012)[44]
- 2007? : SOLD, a comedy featuring real estate agents; for Cherry Lane Theatre in New York;[51] performed at the Old Fitz in February 2007 directed by John Sheedy;[52] later produced at Theatre503 in London (2011) directed by Natalie Ibu.[53][54]
- 2008: All the Blood and All the Water, which tackled racism in Australia, premiered at the Lennox Theatre, Riverside Theatres Parramatta, May 8–30, 2008, after mentoring by Edward Albee, also directed by John Sheedy.[4]
- 2008: The Emotional Anatomy of a Relationship Breakdown – Victorian Arts Centre, Melbourne[35]
- 2008: Reasonable Doubt, premiered at the 2008 Edinburgh Festival Fringe at the Assembly Rooms (Edinburgh) directed by Guy Masterson, starring Peter Phelps and Emma Jackson.[11]
- 2009: Confused Sea Conditions[35]
- 2009: Transparency, which was developed with the Royal National Theatre, premiered with Ransom Theatre in Belfast and toured Northern Ireland. The Irish Times named it as "Best of 2009".[41] In 2011 it was staged at the Seymour Centre and Riverside Theatres Parramatta.[55][56]
- 2010: Extra curricular[35]
- 2012: Driving Into Walls, by Barking Gecko Theatre Company in Perth, WA[5] at the Studio Underground;[9] in 2013 at Riverside Theatres and the Sydney Opera House[9]
- 2013: In the Heart of Derby Park had its premiere season in Glasgow, Scotland, with Oran M'or Theatre Company in 2013.
- 2014: Dust, a production by the State Theatre Centre of Western Australia directed by Emily McLean, premiered at the Heath Ledger Theatre in Perth on 28 June 2014.[57][5]
- 2014: Onefivezeroseven (Barking Gecko)[5] at Studio Underground, Perth[9]
- 2016: Caress/Ache premiered in 2016 at Griffin Theatre, Sydney[5]
- 2017: Sunset Strip premiered in 2016 at Griffin Theatre[58][59] then toured Australia with Critical Stages;[60] 2024 production at New Theatre[61]
- 2016: Snow White – The Opera, directed by Lindy Hume, had its premiere season at the Brisbane Festival in 2016.[62][22]
- 2016: The Sacrifice Zone premiered in Toronto, Canada with Theatre Gargantua[51][22]
- 2017: Velvet Evening Séance was developed by National Theatre of Scotland,[51] Cove Park Artists Residency and Arts Scotland for a premiere season at the 2017 Edinburgh Festival Fringe and then Lemon Tree Theatre.
- 2017: Medea – A Feminist Retelling premiered at La Boite Theatre, Brisbane[5]
- 2018: The Mathematics of Longing, La Boite, Brisbane[5]
- 2019: Prima Facie premiered in 2019 at the Stables Theatre, Sydney, directed by Lee Lewis; it has been staged at the West End in London and played from April to July 2023 on Broadway; it has been translated into several languages. Miller reworked the play into a novel in 2023.[30]
- 2022: Anna K, commissioned by and premiered at Melbourne's Malthouse Theatre in August 2022.[63][22]
- 2022: RBG: Of Many, One, a one-woman play about Ruth Bader Ginsburg, premiered in 2022 at the Wharf 1 Theatre for the Sydney Theatre Company;[28][22] in 2024 at Sydney Opera House and Playhouse Brisbane[9]
- 2023: Jailbaby, commissioned by Griffin, premiered July 2023[22][51]
Footnotes
editReferences
edit- ^ a b Miller, Susan J. (30 July 2020). The mathematics of longing: Exploring the interface between science and theatre by translating mathematical theorems into a play script (QUT Thesis (PhD by Creative Works)). Queensland University of Technology. doi:10.5204/thesis.eprints.201671. Retrieved 24 September 2024. PDF
- ^ a b c Albert, Jane (24 October 2022). "Seeking Justice". Limelight. pp. 32–38.
- ^ a b c d e f g h i j k l m n Miller, Suzie (27 April 2023). "Suzie Miller on Prima Facie and her Olivier win: 'London theatre circles see Australia as the daggy cousin'". the Guardian (Interview). Interviewed by Blake, Elissa. Retrieved 23 September 2024.
- ^ a b c d e Miller, Suzie (11 November 2022). "Q&a With Suzie Miller". Stage Noise (Interview). Interviewed by Simmonds, Diana. Retrieved 23 September 2024.
- ^ a b c d e f g h i j k l m n o p q Reich, Hannah (16 June 2023). "Suzie Miller's Olivier Award-winning play about sexual assault, Prima Facie, has far-reaching impact for legal systems". ABC News. Retrieved 24 September 2024.
- ^ a b c "Suzie Miller awarded prestigious David Williamson Prize at the AWGIES". The National Institute of Dramatic Art (NIDA) -. 5 January 2021. Retrieved 24 September 2024.
- ^ a b c d e f g h i j k l m n Wheatley, Jane (8 April 2022). "The Aussie lawyer turned playwright making a West End debut – with a megastar lead". The Sydney Morning Herald. Retrieved 28 June 2023.
- ^ a b c d e Miller, Suzie (26 September 2023). "Acclaimed Australian playwright Suzie Miller's life has turned a bit dramatic". InReview (Interview). Interviewed by Brown, Phil. Retrieved 23 September 2024.
- ^ a b c d e f "Suzie Miller". AusStage. Retrieved 24 September 2024.
- ^ "Cross Sections by Suzie Miller". ABC Radio National. 9 December 2012. Retrieved 22 September 2024.
- ^ a b "Reasonable Doubt by Suzie Miller 2008 (OZ)". Theatre Tours International (incorporating Guy Masterson Productions). Retrieved 22 September 2024.
- ^ "Reasonable Doubt on New York City: Get Tickets Now!". TheaterMania. 9 March 2023. Retrieved 22 September 2024.
- ^ a b Hetrick, Adam (25 August 2008). "Fringe Festival Announces Overall Excellence Award Winners". Playbill. Retrieved 23 September 2024.
- ^ a b "Reasonable Doubt". Australian Plays Transform – The Home of Australian Playscripts. 22 June 2021. Retrieved 22 September 2024.
- ^ a b c Hampton, Shelley. "Reasonable Doubt". Stage Whispers. Retrieved 22 September 2024.
- ^ "Reasonable Doubt". The Bakehouse Theatre. 12 September 2018. Retrieved 22 September 2024.
- ^ O'Brien, David (3 November 2022). "Reasonable Doubt". The Barefoot Review. Retrieved 22 September 2024.
- ^ "prima facie". Cambridge Dictionary. Cambridge University Press. Retrieved 24 September 2024.
- ^ Reamer, Frederic G. (November 2014). "Prima Facie and Actual Moral Duties in Social Work". Social Work Today.
- ^ a b "Griffin Award". Griffin Theatre. 2023. Archived from the original on 1 August 2023.
- ^ Trezise, Bryoni (28 May 2019). "In Suzie Miller's Prima Facie, theatre finds a voice of reckoning on sexual assault and the law". The Conversation. Retrieved 24 September 2024.
- ^ a b c d e f g h i j k "Suzie Miller". HLA Management Australia. 27 July 2023. Retrieved 23 September 2024.
- ^ Akbar, Arifa (27 April 2022). "Prima Facie review – Jodie Comer on formidable form in roaring drama". The Guardian. Retrieved 23 September 2024.
- ^ a b Harrison, Ellie (1 May 2022). "Prima Facie's Suzie Miller: 'We should be able to party and walk home without fear'". The Independent. Retrieved 24 September 2024.
- ^ Miller, Suzie (18 June 2022). "NT Live: Prima Facie". National Theatre. Retrieved 23 September 2024.
- ^ "Official Website". National Theatre Live: Prima Facie. 12 September 2024. Retrieved 21 September 2024.
- ^ Lee, Benjamin (15 May 2023). "Cynthia Erivo to star in movie adaptation of hit play Prima Facie". The Guardian. Retrieved 15 May 2023.
- ^ a b Tongue, Cassie (4 November 2022). "RBG: Of Many, One review – Ruth Bader Ginsburg play is sincere, but slips into triteness". The Guardian. Retrieved 23 September 2024.
- ^ a b c d e Miller, Suzie (23 April 2024). "In conversation with Australia's success story Suzie Miller". Honi Soit (Interview). Interviewed by Chidiac, Valerie. Retrieved 23 September 2024.
- ^ a b Miller, Suzie (2023). Prima Facie. Picador. ISBN 9781761262258.
- ^ Tongue, Cassie (14 July 2023). "Jailbaby review – Prima Facie's spiritual successor is heart-thumping but heavy-handed". The Guardian. Retrieved 23 September 2024.
- ^ Smee, Charlotte (30 December 2023). "JAILBABY BACK: Suzie Miller's sequel to 'Prima Facie' is back for a limited season". Time Out Sydney. Retrieved 23 September 2024.
- ^ Nelson, Camilla (13 May 2024). "The ominous inevitability of Suzie Miller's new play Jailbaby: often, our justice system has nothing to do with justice". The Conversation. Retrieved 23 September 2024.
- ^ a b Pelly, Michael (7 July 2023). "Playwright Suzie Miller on Prima Facie and her new play Jailbaby". Australian Financial Review. Archived from the original on 15 July 2023. Retrieved 24 September 2024.
- ^ a b c d e "Suzie Miller". The Agency. 11 September 2024. Retrieved 23 September 2024.
- ^ a b c d e "Author: Suzie Miller". Australian Plays Transform. 23 September 2024. Retrieved 23 September 2024.
- ^ a b c "Suzie Miller". RGM Management. Archived from the original on 20 September 2010.
- ^ "Podcast: Suzie Miller: Prima Facie". Sydney Writers' Festival. 15 August 2024. Retrieved 23 September 2024.
- ^ "Suzie Miller: Prima Facie". Brisbane Writers Festival. 1 June 2024. Retrieved 23 September 2024.
- ^ "Suzie Miller". Red Stitch Actors' Theatre. Retrieved 23 September 2024.
- ^ a b c "Suzie Miller" (PDF). The Haworth Agency. 2019.
- ^ "Suzie Miller Named as 2008 Kit Denton Fellow". Australian Writer's Guild. 18 August 2008. Archived from the original on 9 November 2009.
- ^ "Australian Writers' Guild". 2010 AWGIE Awards Nominations. 20 August 2010. Retrieved 24 September 2024.
- ^ a b "AWGIE Award winners 1968-2016" (PDF). Australian Writers' Guild. p. 23. Retrieved 24 September 2024.
- ^ Evans, Greg (9 June 2022). "Killing Eve Star Jodie Comer Sets 2023 Broadway Debut in Suzie Miller's Prima Facie". Deadline. Retrieved 10 June 2022.
- ^ "Olivier awards 2023: full list of winners". The Guardian. 2 April 2023. Retrieved 3 April 2023.
- ^ Tiley, David (18 December 2020). "From playwright to screenwriter, Suzie Miller reflects on her journey". Screenhub. Archived from the original on 19 May 2022.
- ^ "UQ Drama Creative Fellowship". School of Communication and Arts. 27 February 2019. Retrieved 23 September 2024.
- ^ "Suzie Miller Award". Griffin Theatre Company. 25 January 2024. Retrieved 23 September 2024.
- ^ "Q & A with Suzie Miller". Stagenoise.com. 9 May 2008. Retrieved 31 July 2012.
- ^ a b c d "Jailbaby, by Suzie Miller" (theatre program). Retrieved 24 September 2024.
- ^ "Sold". AusStage. Retrieved 24 September 2024.
- ^ Sladen, Simon (1 January 2011). "Theatre review: Sold at Theatre503". British Theatre Guide. Retrieved 24 September 2024.
- ^ "SOLD [script]". Australian Plays Transform. Retrieved 24 September 2024.
- ^ "Seymour Centre". Augusta Supple. 6 August 2022. Retrieved 24 September 2024.
- ^ Mackay, Suzanne (4 September 2011). "Transparency". AussieTheatre.com. Retrieved 24 September 2024.
- ^ "Dust". Stage Whispers. Retrieved 23 September 2024.
- ^ "Sunset Strip". Griffin Theatre Company. 18 December 2019. Retrieved 24 September 2024.
- ^ "Sunset Strip". Stage Whispers. Retrieved 24 September 2024.
- ^ "**Sold Out!** Sunset Strip". Mandurah Performing Arts and Events Centre. 28 October 2020. Retrieved 24 September 2024.
- ^ Miller, Suzie (27 November 2023). "Sunset Strip". New Theatre. Retrieved 24 September 2024.
- ^ "Review: Opera incarnation of Snow White not the fairest of them all, thankfully" by Nathanael Cooper, The Sydney Morning Herald, 8 September 2016
- ^ "Review: Anna K by Guy Webster, Time Out Melbourne, 19 August 2022
External links
edit- Suzie Miller on AusStage as adaptor, creator, performer, playwright, writer
- Suzie Miller at IMDb
- "Suzie Miller: finder of ways", on Conversations with Sarah Kanowski, Radio National, 29 September 2023. (Audio, 53 mins)