Draft talk:Joaquín Arciniegas Tavera

Neutral Point of view and/or conflict of interest

The fact that this contributor may be personally related to the subject, does not preclude him from originally writing a professional neutral point of view on historical article regarding a writer which is the subject. More importantly, the contributor for the fact that he may be personally related, has provided a wealth of firsthand data, knows through the oral tradition and provided supporting citations, is an authority as far as search and research for many years on the subject. There is no evidence of makeup nor embellishment of the facts surrounding the subject. 

So, it can be argued that this is a biographical (not autobiography, for the contributor in not contributing about himself) article, that happens to have a writer's historical significance ("family history project", as Theroadislong(talk) have labeled it); or on the other side, a writer's historical significance biography that happens to be contributed by a personally and well-versed related person. 

The article has been reviewed by academia history scholar (third parties) that are not personally or professionally connected to the contributor nor to the subject, analyzing the sources and citations. And in their opinion, even though there may exist a conflict of interest or a moral hazard, it is neutral point of view, and properly disclosed in the contributor's user page, as it is Wikipedia policy. Fjnovoa (talk) 21:11, 5 February 2024 (UTC)

Moving this here from another editors talk page

Re: Draft:Joaquín Arciniegas Tavera

Hello @Star Mississippi Thank you for your comment.

Germán Arciniegas as an example/precedent - like the subject of this articles and above referenced, was approved as ambassador and writer.

I am basing on the Meridian-Webster definition #2: denotes the deputy appointed officer at an embassy.

I quote next from such reference

consul

noun con·​sul ˈkän(t)-səl

Definition

1a either of two annually elected chief magistrates of the Roman republic.

b one of three chief magistrates of the French republic from 1799 to 1804

2 an official appointed by a government to reside in a foreign country to represent the commercial interests of citizens of the appointing country

Synonyms of consul

noun

Definition of consul

as in ambassador, diplomat, attaché, envoy

Additionally, the draft has been reviewed by Carlos Cañas Dinarte, who is an authority in El Salvador History, will comment his review and endorsement after has already reviewed the draft, this weekend.[1]https://www.ecured.cu/Carlos_Ca%C3%B1as_Dinarte

Fjnovoa (talk) 03:05, 10 February 2024 (UTC)

Hi! What we've seen recently at WP:AFD is some ambassadors have been deleted because thar role isn't enough for preseumed notability, we need more. I don't want to accept your draft and have it immediately brought for deletion, but I'm not positive it wouldn't pass, so left that note for you and future reviewers. You've done excellent work to improve it and the others, so thank you. Star Mississippi 14:20, 10 February 2024 (UTC)

Hello @Star Mississippi

What about if I change the inforbox in html from "officeholder" template to "writer" template. That would no longer show the focus on the ambassadorship but concentrate on the subject as a writer and his contribution to fine arts with the 300 pieces gold collection now being exhibited at the Boston Fine arts museum. Would that work?

And I have removed the sentence from "Achievements" as being a consul and kept it as an "Early life" fact, in the latter section. Fjnovoa (talk) 15:13, 10 February 2024 (UTC)

I think he's much more likely to pass as an WP:NAUTHOR or maybe WP:NARTIST, to that end I'm pinging @Netherzone who edits in art areas and may be able to help if the sourcing is sufficient there. Thanks for all your help and work on these @Fjnovoa Star Mississippi 16:59, 11 February 2024 (UTC)

I saw this draft a couple days ago, and just had a quick look again. @Fjnovoa, He sounds like an interesting person, but I'm sorry to say that he does not meet WP:NARTIST criteria for inclusion. Seldom do art collectors qualify, and the current sourcing of his gold collection at the BFA is primary, which simply proves his gold collection exists but does not determine if it is a notable collection.

If there is independent secondary in-depth coverage in reliable sources about the collection, for example in art history books or academic journals, then perhaps the collection itself (rather than him) may be notable, but that's a stretch. If a wing of a museum is named after a person who once owned a collection, that is more standard. (For example the David Geffen Galleries at the Los Angeles County Museum of Art or the Griffin Wing at MoMA.)[2]

If it turns out that the gold collection is notable, but he as an individual is not, there could still be a section on him in an article on the collection. Try doing a search on Google Books, and if you have access, on JSTOR. (If you don't have access to the latter, I do, but don't have the time at the moment to do that research.) Do keep in mind that there are many gold object collections around the world, so it's important to establish why this one in particular may be notable and not WP:MILL. You could also post a message to the talk page of WikiProject Arts as there are experienced editors there who may be able to help.

I'm less familiar with WP:NAUTHOR criteria, but will put the draft on my watchlist and if I have time in the next few days will do some research. If you can find independent reviews or journal articles that discuss his written works, please add them to the article, and when I review it will take these into account. Netherzone (talk) 17:58, 11 February 2024 (UTC)

Thank you so much! Fjnovoa (talk) 18:42, 11 February 2024 (UTC)

Happy superbowl weekend @Netherzone and @Star Mississippi,

I now have added the following two paragraph to the article Draft: Joaquín Arciniegas Tavera, facts which was narrated to me by Ricardo Armando Novoa Arciniegas when he was alive and through the oral tradition, for your consideration and with additional citations

After his death, the family inherited multiple documents and papyrus from the Simón Bolívar era that belonged to Arciniegas Tavera, that were later donated to the Colombian Institute and Library Gold Museum through Germán Arciniegas where there is a room or wing named after Don Joaquín Arciniegas in gratitude for such donation.

Additionally, the family donated to Museo Romántico that was founded by Doctor Eduardo Santos in the hacienda Yerbabuena of the Marroquíns; multiple miniature oil paintings authored by Jesús María Zamora, Ricardo Borrero Álvarez, Roberto Páramo, amongst others authors who's work was collected by Arciniegas Tavera.

Fjnovoa (talk) 20:53, 11 February 2024 (UTC)

@Fjnovoa, This should probably get moved to the draft talk page so other editors and reviewers can see it. Has the oral history been published? If not, unfortunately it's "heresay" and would be considered original research WP:OR which is not reliable for an encyclopedia. If it has been published, it would be a primary source, which is ok to use for fact checking but does not contribute to the notability of the subject. Netherzone (talk) 21:47, 11 February 2024 (UTC)

Help please, @Theroadislong is reversing any edits I make to the article, as I take both of you, @Netherzone and @Star Mississippi recommendations and guidance.

I have written to him/she directly and stated the following

I am still in the process of editing and providing further evidence and citations for the article, after reviews and observations from @Star Mississippi and @Netherzone. Kindly and respectfully, why are you erasing my edits, if the article is still in progress of editing? You are not providing me the opportunity to take care of the issues that have been found with the article that are preventing it from being reviewed and approved.

Please reinstate my edits which are mitigating with corrections and additional information per previous declines. Or are you just blocking any edits I make to not allow me to go forward with my further changes? Fjnovoa (talk) 22:45, 11 February 2024 (UTC)

@Fjnovoa, the reviewer, @Theroadislong, is highly experienced and I'm certain they made the changes for a WP policy/guidelines reason, there is no reason to doubt their actions. I have moved the conversation here to keep it in one place. Netherzone (talk) 23:15, 11 February 2024 (UTC)

Thanks @Netherzone for centralizing this. Also dropping a link to the sources @Fjnovoa added to their talk. I don't have a lot of time online tonight but will look into this as soon as I can. Star Mississippi 00:48, 12 February 2024 (UTC)

I have added back the content though I still feel it is irrelevant and promotional. Theroadislong (talk) 08:05, 12 February 2024 (UTC)

@Fjnovoa, please don't add low quality, user-submitted content sources like Twitter. The sources should be independent, secondary and in-depth. Here is an example of a good source: [3]. Read more about sourcing here [WP:RS]. Please remove content that reads promotionally, use a neutral tone and writing style. And make sure all the claims (facts) in the draft are backed up by reliable sources that can be verified. Take your time, you can keep improving it, then resubmit it to AfC.

Re: COI, once any draft or article you have written is accepted, you must stop editing it directly and instead use the "edit request" feature. That is one of the reasons why a draft should be in "good shape" before submitting it for review. Netherzone (talk) 12:44, 12 February 2024 (UTC)

Varied replies

@Fjnovoa: please reply here so the conversation is in one place. I'm having trouble following it across various User Talk's, and that will hamper a review when an AfC reviewer comes along. In reply to your query, and the asks today about having the AfC message removed, this is why we discourage COI editing. You have a personal passion for the subject - and understandably - which makes it hard to edit neutrally. Discussions here and comments from prior AfC reviewers will help in an assessment of whether or not the article is ready for mainspace. Let me know if that's helpful or if you have any questions? cc @Netherzone and Theroadislong: Star Mississippi 01:45, 13 February 2024 (UTC)

Understood, thank you so much.  Fjnovoa (talk) 15:52, 13 February 2024 (UTC)

Verification needed for claims

@Fjnovoa, I'm not finding anything on the institutional websites or anywhere else that there is a "wing or room" named for him, as stated in the draft: After his death, the family inherited multiple documents and papyrus from the Simón Bolívar era that belonged to Arciniegas Tavera, that were later donated to the Colombian Institute and Library Gold Museum through Germán Arciniegas where there is a room or wing named after Don Joaquín Arciniegas in gratitude for such donation. We would need definitive proof of this to make that statement and claim it as fact.

Also this: Additionally, the family donated to Museo Romántico that was founded by Doctor Eduardo Santos in the hacienda Yerbabuena of the Marroquíns; multiple miniature oil paintings authored by Jesús María Zamora, Ricardo Borrero Álvarez, Roberto Páramo, amongst others authors who's work was collected by Arciniegas Tavera. While there are sourced added to this statement, none of them verify what is being claimed as fact. Netherzone (talk) 19:20, 13 February 2024 (UTC)

@Netherzone I will have to go back and make these consultations to the family in Colombia for additional information.

With regards to the room or wing, I learned that through the oral tradition from Ricardo Armando Novoa Arciniegas while he was alive, who explained that Germán Arciniegas visited the subject's daughter Mercedes Antonia Arciniegas Villatoro (1902-1985) in El Salvador on multiple occasions, while he was Minister of Education in Colombia (1943-1948) and afterwards. German was the liaison and representative of the Gold Museum, Bogotá or Colombian National Museum involved in the donations. Once the Simon Bolivar letters were donated, via letters he confirmed the creation of the "wing or room" in the 1950's. So, I will contact again the family in Colombia to find proof that such either existed and if it changed over time. Perhaps they can go in person to the Gold Museum and inquire directly in person. There is an apparent confusion weather it could be also the Colombian National Museum.

With regards to the donation of oil paintings to Casa Marroquín del Instituto Caro y Cuervo, the paragraph is from German Arciniegas autobiography as was shared by the family in Colombia recently. In said paragraph, German Arciniegas is writing in the first person. I can share a copy of the page here, in which the donation details are, as well as comments about the Pre-Columbian gold collection sold by the subject to Oliverio Girondo that is now in the Boston Museum of Fine Art.

Fjnovoa (talk) 21:48, 13 February 2024 (UTC)

Because WP is an encyclopedia, which is different than a family history website or a blog or personal website, everything must be verified to a published reliable source, so hearsay via oral conversations would not be considered a reliable source appropriate for our purposes here.

Regarding the "wing or room" there is nothing on either the Gold Museum, Bogota nor the Columbian National Museum websites about this. So it does not seem to be something we could use because it cannot be found in a reliable source (again, just a coversation with someone in his family is not good enough - that would be considered original research or personal opinion. If it was a permanent wing in the museum, certainly it would be documented by the institution.

The file you attached does not verify the claims in the draft. If the claims are to be included in the article, we need reliable sources that actually say that. Netherzone (talk) 22:08, 13 February 2024 (UTC)

The first paragraph which contained "wing or room" claim, the reference to saying a "room or wing" has been removed.

The second paragraph for the 2nd donation, will be included in the draft, I am getting the German Arciniegas autobiography citation ready. Fjnovoa (talk) 16:05, 14 February 2024 (UTC)

I wouldn't take too much time with the autobiography citation, as it is a primary COI source by a relative. Is it also self-published? Netherzone (talk) 16:49, 14 February 2024 (UTC)

No, it is in a book published by Dr. Antonio Cauca Prada, who is a specialist that has written and help in the biography of German Arciniegas published by Britannica Encyclopedia. My contacts are looking for the book, title, page number, etc. Fjnovoa (talk) 20:25, 14 February 2024 (UTC)

I am not sure you are understanding my questions. Which publishing company published the book itself? Netherzone (talk) 20:42, 14 February 2024 (UTC)

I do not know yet, the author was Dr. Antonio Cauca Prada, but I do not know yet the complete citation as stated, so I do not know who the publisher was. Fjnovoa (talk) 20:45, 14 February 2024 (UTC)

zero evidence of passing WP:NWRITER

@Theroadislong With regards to your comment "zero evidence of passing WP:NWRITER" Mr. Pedro Núñez Martínez, (https://urukeditores.com/autores/pedro-nunez-martinez/) a writer, went to the Costa Rica National Library to search and research about the subject. There he met with the director Ms. Laura Rodríguez , who referred him to Ms. Xenia Fonseca Quirós. The latter provided the copy of the cover of the subject's book "El Alma de la America Latina", and probably the library (Biblioteca Nacional "Miguel Obregón Lizano")there has copies of the other two books, "Colombia Autógrafa" and "Album de Autógrafos Hispano-Americanos" or the National Library of Colombia. You are welcome to contact them directly for your verification process. These are the three published books that support the evidece that the subject was a writer. Fjnovoa (talk) 22:46, 13 February 2024 (UTC)

You are STILL completely miss-understanding how Wikipedia works, we don't require verification or evidence as such and we certainly don't need any emails please remove them, we requires significant coverage in reliable independent sources. Theroadislong (talk) 08:15, 14 February 2024 (UTC)

@Theroadislong It is commonly understood in messaging communication etiquette, that when a person capitalizes a word like you have the word “STILL”, it means you are yelling at the recipient or intended audience. This is not the protocol nor respect I would expect from a reviewer in Wikipedia.

Please do not attack me personally and let's stay focus on the article and the subject. In the recent past, I have expressed my exception to your subjective message labeling the article “family history project” and I stayed focused on my COI disclosure. I did not appreciate you erasing all my edits, regarding the subject's daughter’s donations when I was working to mitigate recommendations made by @Netherzone. I have apologized to you directly, for the minute-long mistaken edit I made to maintenance notes, in my attempt to produce a clean pdf copy for review support from history and writer academia scholars. And now your new response yelling and attacking me for my understanding level.

Per your request, now I have removed the email addresses provided for additional verification of the subject’s three published books: "Colombia Autógrafa", "Album de Autógrafos Hispano-Americanos" and "The Soul of Latin America". Moreover, I have provided secondary citations and reliable sources regarding the subject published books with references #10, #11, #12, #13 and #14, which stands in juxtaposition to your message stating “zero evidence of passing WP:WRITER”

Kindly and respectfully, it is my personal opinion as a contributor, that perhaps Wikipedia would be better served if you recused yourself from any further reviewing, if you have developed a bias against me and I am not feeling the impartiality coming from you and allow other fresh eyes to continue the review process, with regards to the subject's writer qualifications. There is an abysmal difference in the spirit and style of the constructive and guidance messages received from @Star Mississippi and @Netherzone in contrast to yours. Fjnovoa (talk) 17:36, 14 February 2024 (UTC)

I have already recused myself from a second review which is why it is awaiting review still. I have no bias against you, only the draft. Theroadislong (talk) 17:41, 14 February 2024 (UTC)

@Fjnovoa, Theroadislong is correct in their analyses and concerns about the draft. Your contributions do indeed appear to be a "family history project." There was no personal attack made. There are three good-faith, experienced editors are trying to help you understand how things work on the English language Wikipedia. Please read the guidelines and policies of the encyclopedia so that you better understand what is a reliable source WP:RS, verifiability WP:V, original research WP:OR, and a primary source WP:PRIMARY, and conflict of interest WP:COI. Thank you. Netherzone (talk) 17:49, 14 February 2024 (UTC)

I will read the rest this evening, I have read the WP:COI multiple times and in compliance I have disclosed in my user page. Fjnovoa (talk) 17:59, 14 February 2024 (UTC)

Secondary verifiable source

Here I am copying a secondary verifiable source about the book "The Soul of Latin America" written by the subject. And the Costa Rica National Library is producing me a complete digial copy of the book, which will be available in a few days.Fjnovoa (talk) 20:21, 14 February 2024 (UTC)

But a digital copy of the book is not a secondary source? Theroadislong (talk) 21:15, 14 February 2024 (UTC)

I am not pretending the book is a secondary source. The image I have pasted for you on the left, which comes from page 207, a book in the Indiana University Library, and titled Revista Nacional, Director Rodolfo W. Carranza, secretary of redaction Julio Bambil, Editor Juan Canter 1907 Buenos Aires, Argentina, that can be accessed online in the following link:

https://books.google.com/books?id=5xQXAQAAMAAJ&pg=PA207&lpg=PA207&dq=%22Joaqu%C3%ADn+Arciniegas%22.-+San+Jos%C3%A9+de+Costa+Rica,+1907+M%C3%A9xico+Magallanes&source=bl&ots=xWEso033c8&sig=ACfU3U0OluCz4T6ldbNuyKQh3Ma8V5BS4A&hl=en&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwjG3ceK66uEAxUelWoFHVRfA8UQ6AF6BAgLEAM#v=onepage&q=%22Joaqu%C3%ADn%20Arciniegas%22.-%20San%20Jos%C3%A9%20de%20Costa%20Rica%2C%201907%20M%C3%A9xico%20Magallanes&f=false Fjnovoa (talk) 22:11, 14 February 2024 (UTC)

See in the article, reference #13 now has been incorporated. And I am parallel reaching also to the Colombia National Library for the other two books. Fjnovoa (talk) 22:27, 14 February 2024 (UTC)

@Fjnovoa, based on your long messages here, I'm wondering, respectfully of course, about your English competency and ability to understand what is being said to you. May I please ask you why you have chosen to write these articles on English Wikipedia rather than on Spanish Wikipedia? Netherzone (talk) 23:43, 14 February 2024 (UTC)

Because I only used Spanish until I was 14 years old, and was sent to a boarding school in Gainesville, GA (Riverside Military Academy) due to the civil war that was going on in El Salvador. My Spanish is basic, used mainly for my research. I have resided in the USA since 1978, and used English for the last 46 years of my life, as my primary language. My daughter undergrad is a BA in English and assists me reviewing my articles. I have an undergrad BBA in Finance from the University of Texas @ Arlington, if you doubt my English comprehension and competence. 

Why am I having this line of questioning? I can assure you I am not using any machine translation, Wow!

@Star Mississippi Sorry to bug you, see my response above and advice how can I report in Wikipedia the discrimination that @Netherzone is making against me. Fjnovoa (talk) 01:27, 15 February 2024 (UTC)

Secondary verifiable source #2 page 1

Secondary verifiable source #2 page 2

@Theroadislong The second and third image I have pasted for you on the left and right which further document the article's subject as a person is regarded as an important figure or is widely cited by peers or successors (has always been in the article as citation #10). This comes from pages 6 & 9, a publication called Páginas Ilustradas, and titled of the article about the subject is "album de autógrafos hispano-americanos by Joaquín Arciniegas" authored by the person who signs the second page Alfonso Reyes Guerra, a publication in Costa Rica by Calderon Hermanos No. 64. from 1906, that can be accessed online in the following link:

https://prensacr.info/data/6256dd81445c2c68118ca4a9?search%5Btags_op%5D=and

Please note this is in fact the 2nd "secondary verifiable source" I have provided for you in this talk page regarding the article. One for "El Alma de la America Latina" and one for "album de autógrafos hispano-americanos".

Please advise if this now mitigates your message "zero evidence of passing WP:NWRITER" as well as "Reads like a family history project." Fjnovoa (talk) 02:30, 15 February 2024 (UTC)

Joaquin Arciniegas Venezuela.jpg

Hello @Star Mississippi good evening.

Consul of Venezuela in Colón, Panama.

I have found from my archives evidence that the subject was Consul of Venezuela in Colón, Panama in 1894 (which belonged to Colombia at the time); that would be three times an officeholder. I am attaching here my notes page from when I went in person to Colombia, Venezuela, Ecuador, Costa Rica, Panama, Nicaragua and El Salvador to conduct this long research over the years; and found the Venezuelan diplomat support. Today, being a senior citizen with my conditions of brain tumor and deep vein thrombosis (DVT) I am constrained from traveling anymore.

However, I am getting help from a history authority Carlos Cañas Dinarte in El Salvador, Pedro Núñez Martínez a writer in Costa Rica, and the Arciniegas family in Colombia. All I ask is to be extended the professional courtesy of time for these contacts to find support and help me mitigate the observations and roadblocks I am perceiving for the article to see the light of day. Conducting search and research in third world countries (El Salvador, Nicaragua, Costa Rica and Panama) or emerging markets countries (Colombia, Venezuela and Ecuador) takes time, if I can even find material for support for a person that died 94 years ago.

I recall you said that being "ambassador" was borderline, but with the obstacles for a "writer" that @Theroadislong points out and the ones @Netherzone points out for "art collector"; this might in fact be the only avenue left avenue for the article. If when I can get further support from the enumerated sources and contacts materialized, such can be submitted for review and approval and added to the article, by I do not hold the crystal ball when that will happen. Fjnovoa (talk) 04:07, 14 February 2024 (UTC)

Notability guidelines

1. The person is regarded as an important figure or is widely cited by peers or successors; or
2. The person is known for originating a significant new concept, theory, or technique; or
3. The person has created or played a major role in co-creating a significant or well-known work or collective body of work. In addition, such work must have been the primary subject of multiple independent periodical articles or reviews, or of an independent and notable work (for example, a book, film, or television series, but usually not a single episode of a television series); or
4. The person's work (or works) has: (a) become a significant monument, (b) been a substantial part of a significant exhibition, (c) won significant critical attention, or (d) been represented within the permanent collections of several notable galleries or museums. Theroadislong (talk) 22:44, 14 February 2024 (UTC)

   "(d) been represented within the permanent collections of several notable galleries or museums", please inquire the Boston Fine Art Museum, regarding the Arciniegas collection (300 Pieces Pre-Columbian gold collection), which the article has as citation #17. Fjnovoa (talk) 01:40, 15 February 2024 (UTC)

   This is a misunderstanding criterion #4 or (d), the meaning of which refers to an artist's own creative work that they made/fabricated themself. And it specifies "several". Netherzone (talk) 02:23, 15 February 2024 (UTC)