User talk:John Hill/Archive 8

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Hohhot

Hi hope you;'re well! Do you have anything you can use to write a decent history on this?♦ Dr. Blofeld 12:44, 29 August 2012 (UTC)

Lovely to hear from you, you take care of that back!♦ Dr. Blofeld 14:10, 30 August 2012 (UTC)

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Photo of boy with Bearded Vulture

Hello, John. I hope this is an acceptable contribution, as I am not a regular editor at Wikipedia. I just wanted to let you know that your photo of the boy with the Bearded Vulture is one of my favorite images on the Internet. I was wondering under what circumstances it was taken. Did you know the boy or did you happen upon him and his pet? Do you think the bird was being used in falconry?

71.130.194.138 (talk) 00:45, 30 August 2012 (UTC)

Reply

Hi! Sorry I don't know your name - but I am thrilled you like the photo of the boy with the Bearded Vulture. I took the photo way back in 1973 in Kabul, Afghanistan down-town, right near the National Museum. I am not at all sure why or how the little boy came by it as I was unable to talk with him - but he seemed very proud of it and was holding it carefully. The bird seemed very calm being held and carried around - not troubled at all. The boy shook my had after the photo was taken and then wandered off with the bird tucked under his arm and a big beaming smile on his face. I suspect, but don't know, that the bird must have been injured and he was caring for it like a pet. There is no way it could be used in falconry - it is a type of vulture and they do not regularly hunt live animals and, as far as I know, they mostly only eat carrion. Only hawks, falcons and sometimes eagles are used in falconry. Later on I lived for a couple of years in the mountains of northern India where we had many of Bearded Falcons (some used to regularly glide close to us in the air currents around our home) but I have never observed any others being held by a person. It is all a bit of a mystery, actually. Anyway - I am glad you enjoyed the photo. All best wishes, John Hill (talk) 03:40, 30 August 2012 (UTC)

Wikipedia:Reliable sources/Noticeboard

Requesting your comments (conclusive, if possible) @ http://en.wiki.x.io/wiki/Wikipedia:Reliable_sources/Noticeboard#Tadeusz_Sulimirski_.26_Rahul_Sankrityayan — 117.207.62.240 (talk) 09:05, 10 September 2012 (UTC)

Merge

The article Indo-Scythians covers exactly the topic of this unreferenced article in better detail, so the article Indo-Scythians can be merged into this article. Khestwol (talk) 18:48, 6 September 2012 (UTC)

Reply to above request

I had never heard of either of these two men until I received this request. For this reason I am not in a position to comment. Sincerely, John Hill (talk) 22:13, 10 September 2012 (UTC)

Possibly unfree File:Bennett's Tree-kangaroo 2006.jpg

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Merge discussion for Indo-Scythians

An article that you have been involved in editing, Indo-Scythians, has been proposed for a merge with another article. If you are interested in the merge discussion, please participate by going here, and adding your comments on the discussion page. Thank you. Khestwol (talk) 14:24, 21 September 2012 (UTC)

Reply to merge proposal

There are several problems here - not only with the merge proposal - but also with the article itself.

1. First, "Saka" is a term used to refer to many different peoples who shared certain cultural affinities to some degree. Most - but not all - scholars believe they spoke Iranic languages (but others suggest some of them spoke Turkic languages). They were spread out over a very large area of Central Asia and established a number of kingdoms (such as the kingdoms of Khotan and Yarkand, amongst others), so this article is wrong in referring to a single "Saka kingdom."

2. Even within India there were more than one kingdom of "Sakas." For example, the family of the Lord Buddha himself were said to be Sakas ("Shakya") and his father's kingdom was centered in Kapilavastu in the middle Ganges Valley. The article should, perhaps, be expanded to include other Saka kingdoms and headed something like "Saka kingdoms in India."

3. This article does not contain a single footnote and only one general reference to the Mahabharata. It, therefore, needs a lot of work on it before there can be any thought of merging it with any other.

5. "Indo-Scythian" is a term first used in 1841 (according to the Oxford English Dictionary) by M. Elphinstone. Unfortunately, the term has become very loosely used - not only for a number of clearly "Saka" peoples, but also for the Kushans who were at least partially descended from the Da Yuezhi people who invaded the Oxus River (Amu Darya) in the late 2nd century BCE. The Chinese histories clearly distinguish the Da Yuezhi from various groups of Sakas and they even chased at least one tribe of Sakas south into the northwest of the subcontinent. Sincerely, John Hill (talk) 22:34, 21 September 2012 (UTC)

German Turfan expeditions

Hi John. Dr. Blofeld suggested I let you know about this one, German Turfan expeditions, which may interest you. --Rosiestep (talk) 22:09, 3 November 2012 (UTC)

Thanks very much for pointing this article out. I have made quite a few additions and added references and footnotes. However, there is much more that should be done - I will try to get back to it - but I am not able to at the moment. Any help by others would be much appreciated. Many thanks, John Hill (talk) 02:43, 4 November 2012 (UTC)

It's a pleasure to work on this one with you. I'm guessing that Dr. B and Nvvchar will jump in and assist within the next couple of days. Cheers, --Rosiestep (talk) 02:48, 4 November 2012 (UTC)

It is long time since I saw your edits. Glad to see you editing German Turfan Expeditions. I have added some text and nominated it on DYK. You may like to look at it and also edit if necessary. I hope you are keeping good health. Wishing you all the best. --Nvvchar. 22:21, 7 November 2012 (UTC)

• Thanks for your reply and wishes. I liked this article Wild Bactrian camel. I have expanded it to 14,000 and odd ch. May be without the infobox and the quoted text it may still become 5x expansion from 8th! If you feel like nominating it please edit the text that I have added and nominate it. Thanks and wishing you well. --Nvvchar. 02:33, 10 November 2012 (UTC)

Hello again. South Turkmenistan Complex Archaeological Expedition is another which may interest you. Nvvchar has done wonders to it in less than a day. --Rosiestep (talk) 05:59, 14 November 2012 (UTC)

Reply to the above two notes

Apologies especially to User Nvvchar - but I have been not well and, thus, not on Wikipedia for a few days. Thank you so much for your kind help on the Wild Bactrian camel article - it is a far better article now - but I just haven't been able to get it together to apply for a DYK - which is a great shame. And thanks to User Rosiestep - I will certainly look at what magic Nvvchar has done to South Turkmenistan Complex Archaeological Expedition. He really is a Wiki star and his work is always of the very highest quality. I am a bit better today and, hopefully, I will keep improving and will ne able to have another look at both these articles over the next while. Many thanks and all best wishes to you both. Cheers John Hill (talk) 06:58, 14 November 2012 (UTC)

DYK for German Turfan expeditions

 — Crisco 1492 (talk) 00:02, 19 November 2012 (UTC)

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Reply

I had a note there already saying that I, John Hill, who uploaded the photo in the first place, took the photo myself. I have just extended that sentence to be more specific and removed the "unsourced" tag - I hope it is OK now. If not, please let me know. Cheers, John Hill http://tripwow.tripadvisor.com/slideshow-photo/the-minoan-snake-goddess-from-knossos-by-travelpod-member-carlton-amoudara-greece.html?sid=10992642&fid=tp-10 — Preceding unsigned comment added by 72.135.22.116 (talk) 02:48, 30 January 2013 (UTC)

Purang-Guge kingdom

Grreetings John. Hope you are feeling reasonable. Can you expand this? Also Tabo Monastery you might have more on...♦ Dr. ☠ Blofeld 14:31, 23 January 2013 (UTC)

Strange it may seem, but I started working on the same subject and wanted to start on Tholing Monastery after the Tabo Monastery article (nominated today on DYK). I have added some text to the Purang-Guge article from the references I have gathered, which you have started and I hope the text I have added is on the same lines as you are thinking. Please let me know. If the text added by me is not relevant to the context, please remove it. You may like to add to Tabo Monastery even now if there is more text availabe with your rich collections. I am sure you are keeping better health now. Regards.--Nvvchar. 07:20, 24 January 2013 (UTC)

You have anything on Yeshe-Ö, Zanda, Tibet (Tholing/Toling/Toding) or Namling?♦ Dr. ☠ Blofeld 17:01, 26 January 2013 (UTC)

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Your photo of the summer palace of the Dalai Lamas

Greetings John Hill,

What a pleasure to find your photos & also to learn about your enormous contributions in many significant areas as well as Wikipedia. Thank you indeed.

My co-author, Dennis Berry, & I are adding photos to the Kindle edition of our collaboration on the mystery, "Eye Witness." One chapter has details on the 13th Dalai Lama & I found your photo of the summer palace (I really wanted a photo of a jade statue of 2 archers but did not find anything. Now I'm not sure whether Dennis or I created out of whole fabric the story of the jade statue of 2 archers or whether there really was such a statue!).

The back story in "Eye Witness" is about the Nazi treatment of Gypsies; two Gypsies, both authors & scholars, were wonderful editors of the manuscript & are enthusiastic about the book; the thread (because it is the second in the Dr. Yoko series) is optometric vision therapy, a valuable health care that's available in 40 countries but little known. My factual books on optometric vision therapy have been in print for several decades (www.oepf.org, "The Suddenly Successful Student & Friends" a concise overview of the therapy) but people still tell me they've never heard of the therapy. So I ventured into fiction. The first Dr. Yoko, "Eye Sleuth" introduces Dr. Yoko & the back story is TBI, traumatic brain injury. In the event you've time & interest, our site is www.murderprose.com

I'm now living in Greenfield, Massachusetts. The community has a strong focus on sustainability & environmental balance. We've many small local farms & encourage CSA, community supported agriculture.

Sincerely,

Hazel Dawkins — Preceding unsigned comment added by Summerday22 (talk • contribs) 15:59, 16 April 2013 (UTC)

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Wild Bactrian camel

Hi John Hill,
thanks for your interesting article on the wild Bactrian camel. Unortunately, in the extending and overhauling that happend to the article since you wrote it, most of the facts on the differences between C. bactrianus and C. ferus got lost; instead, the article now has a section ′History of evolution′ which speaks of ″two surviving [camel] species″, the Bactrian camel and the dromedary. If you′ve got the energy, it would be nice if you had a look at the article and re-added your findings (maybe by reworking the ′Evolution′-section into a section explaining the differences between ferus and bactrianus).
Roberta jr. (talk) 14:50, 9 May 2013 (UTC)

I did the re-adding now, but the new section needs a bit of cleanup. Roberta jr. (talk) 17:24, 21 May 2013 (UTC)

Reply

Dear Roberta:

Thank you so very much for your assistance with this article. I did get your earlier note but that very day I had to go to hospital for a minor procedure and when I got home I began preparing for this trip and forgot all about it. I am now in Vancouver, Canada (after travelling from Cooktown in northern Queensland, Australia) visiting my mother who is due to have her 99th birthday on the 4th of June. Just this morning I got my little netbook set up and received your second message.

I have made some minor changes to the article, like removing one blockquote which mainly repeated information in an earlier one, and removed some warning tags, etc. Please have a look at it now and let me know if you think it needs some more work.

I am sorry someone removed my photo claiming it was not of "wild camels". It did make a much more attractive page with it. However, on checking, it does seem that these camels which appeared "out of nowhere" during a sand storm, were somewhat out of the normal accepted range for these wild camels. My guide told me they were "wild camels," but I concede they could have been crosses with the domesticated version - I am not really sure, so I guess it is better to leave it out for now.

Again - many thanks for your kind help.

All best wishes,

John Hill John Hill (talk) 19:11, 21 May 2013 (UTC)

Talkback

Hello John Hill, I am Sommer and I am an American and was looking for information on the Qashqai people group which led me to your picture on Wikipedia. If you have any contacts with the people or any more information about them I would love to hear it. 74.126.140.141 (talk) 15:41, 29 July 2013 (UTC)

Unclear citation, Rabies virus

Your edit from July 2011 contained two unclear references. The first one is incomplete, the second one seems incorrect (is it this one?). Could you please fix them? Being a member of WP:WCC, I'd like to help if necessary. --bender235 (talk) 15:00, 23 August 2013 (UTC)

Reply

Thanks very much for bringing this up. Yes, it appears I did not make the references clear - they were meant to refer to two articles by Dr. Pawan in the same journal. I will try to fix them as best I can - but I cannot at the moment lay my had on these old papers which I have stored in one of many cardboard boxes in my home.

Both articles were, I believe, printed in the one journal but it looks as if I have given the page numbers for only one of them. The two articles are:

1. Pawan, J.L. (April 8, 1936). "Transmission of the Paralytic Rabies in Trinidad of the Vampire Bat: Desmodus rotundus murinus Wagner, 1840". Annals of Tropical Medicine and Parisitology 30: 137–156.

2. Pawan, J.L. (December 1936). "Rabies in the Vampire Bat of Trinidad with Special Reference to the Clinical Course and the Latency of Infection". Annals of Tropical Medicine and Parisitology 30 (4).

If I get the time to sort through my many boxes of papers I will give the full details when I find them. In the meantime, I will clean up the references as best I can.

However, I notice we also have a problem with some silly person vandalizing the entry. S/he has changed it to read: "In September 1931, Poupe Charles Jones of Trinidad in the West Indies, a government bacteriologist, found Negri bodies in the brain of a bat with unusual habits. He said that a rabies virus was key to the curing of Lyssophobia. In 1932, Russ Pfister first discovered that infected vampire bats could transmit rabies to humans and other animals.[5][6]"

I will try to straighten it out later today - when I can find the time.

Thanks once again for bringing this to my notice. John Hill (talk) 23:00, 23 August 2013 (UTC)

Good news

I think I have found now the full proper references by the two key articles by Pawan and have added another reference to a brief history of the controversies surrounding these discoveries by Dr. James A. Waterman, which may be of some interest to those studying the early history of research on rabies. I have also, of course, tidied up the childish vandalism in this section. Do please let me know if you have any further questions. Cheers, John Hill (talk) 00:02, 24 August 2013 (UTC)

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thanks

Thanks for bringing this error to my attention. Unfortunately, it is far from the first time I have made such a mistake. I must try to remain more mindful when making entries - I seem to forget these details. Perhaps it is an early sign of dementia? I have repaired it now. Cheers, John Hill (talk) 00:08, 24 August 2013 (UTC)

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L'Anse aux Meadows picture

Hi there John

Im am very interested in identifying the "viking ships" your sister have pictured from L'Anse aux Meadows.

Do you know any details ???

Mail ij@vikingeskibsmuseet.dk - and I will give you Why's and background

Thanks!!

Ivan Jakobsen — Preceding unsigned comment added by 5.103.100.220 (talk) 17:03, 31 August 2013 (UTC)

Boy with lammergeier vulture

Dear Mr. Hill,

I recently found your photo of a boy carrying a live lammergeier, taken in Kabul in 1973. I am very curious to find out any context to this photo. If you are willing to talk about it you can email me at baropithecus at gmail.com and we can talk further.

Thanks,

Baropithecus (talk) 12:50, 5 February 2014 (UTC)

B. S. Nijjar

Hi, you were mentioned in this edit summary. I'm not saying that you are wrong in your opinion but can you link me to where it was stated, please? - Sitush (talk) 10:04, 1 March 2014 (UTC)

Reply

Dear Sitush:

I just received your email and am having trouble trying to understand what you want me to comment on. Is it the reference that "Abstruce" makes to me saying that: "Kindly note that this very book has been deemed as "unreliable and misleading work" by User:John Hill,. . . ."?

I presume this is in reference to the book: cite book |title=Origins and History of Jats and Other Allied Nomadic Tribes of India: 900 B.C.-1947 A.D |first=B. S. |last=Nijjar |publisher=Atlantic Publishers |year=2008.

If so, this is probably correct - I very likely would have made such a comment about this book - but I would have said it so long ago I cannot remember in what context or even in which article it appeared. I am sorry I cannot be more specific than this.

If you would like some idea of why I might have said that the book was a "misleading and unreliable work" - just have a look at the pages available on Google Books. For example, the reference given here is to: url=http://books.google.co.uk/books?id=xQM9voN21ekC&pg=PA73

Checking this single page I note that there is a generalisation about Jats that sounds rather defamatory or at the very least biased: "The Jats, moreover, are extremely proud and consider themselves not only the owners of the land but of the village itself. Fear and hatred of the Jats is, therefore, justified to a certain extent, and the Jats enjoy and profit from the fear they evoke in others."

If I remember correctly (and please keep in mind it is some years since I read this book), there were numerous such generalisations scattered throughout the work - thus making it an unreliable reference.

I hope this answers your question - if not please write again and clarify exactly what you want.

Best wishes,

Sincerely,

John Hill (talk) 11:33, 1 March 2014 (UTC)

The problem with that is that Nijjar is an academic historian who has held tenured positions in US universities etc - see this. He is entitled to his academic judgement and, in fact, the one that you quote is a fairly commonly-held one. I think he is himself a Jat and would have thought that to be a more problematic issue. anyway, if you can't remember then no worries - I'll see if Abstruce can point me to what you said. Thanks for your time. - Sitush (talk) 12:29, 1 March 2014 (UTC)

2nd reply

Nijjar may be an "academic historian" and he is entitled to his opinions. But, if his book is to be considered a reputable source of history he should qualify his comments. E.g. he could have said: "Many (instead of "the" = "all") Jats, moreover, are extremely proud and consider themselves not only the owners of the land but of the village itself. Fear and hatred of the Jats is, therefore, justified to a certain extent, and some (rather than "the") Jats enjoy and profit from the fear they evoke in others."

He is running down and tarring all Jats as being the same, and while what he says may be true of some Jats - it is clearly not so for all of them. It is akin to saying: "The Germans are (all) Nazis and terrorise Jews," or "Australians are (all) racists." That is why I believe his book is a biased, unreliable and misleading work, and not worthy of being accepted as a reference in the Wikipedia. Sincerely, John Hill (talk) 13:19, 1 March 2014 (UTC)

Dear Friends, Please Read: Talk:Indo-Scythians#The book Origins and history of Jats and other allied nomadic tribes of India: 900 B.C. - 1947 A.D. (2007) by B.S. Nijjar is an unreliable and misleading work which should not be used in the Wikipedia (& this one). Sincerely, ← Abstruce 06:28, 2 March 2014 (UTC)

That thread is nothing but the opinion of a Wikipedia contributor who made lots of claims but substantiated none. Unless, of course, they were substantiated in some other thread. - Sitush (talk) 15:02, 2 March 2014 (UTC)

Dear Sitush: You are welcome to your opinion - but it doesn't seem to me to be more than just that - a personal opinion. If you wish to rehabilitate Nijjar's book, Origins and history of Jats and other allied nomadic tribes of India: . . . as a valid reference, please have a look at my notes above and the very detailed critique I made of his book in August 2009 (see the link in Abstruce's note above) first. I pointed out many instances of major historical mistakes, bias, and misinformation there and gave references in each case to pages in Nijjar's work which illustrated my claims.

I still think that, because of the serious nature of the many historical mistakes, and other problems in Nijjar's book, it is not worthy of consideration as a serious historical reference. Finally, if your comment that: "That thread is nothing but the opinion of a Wikipedia contributor who made lots of claims but substantiated none" refers to my assessment of the value of his work, I think that is unfair as I believe I have amply referenced and substantiated my position. If you disagree with my assessment I think you should reply and answer each of the many points I have raised and referenced. Sincerely, John Hill (talk) 23:41, 2 March 2014 (UTC)

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Reply

Thanks for contacting me - but I am not quite sure what you are asking me to do. I did take this photo myself (on old-fashioned film) on my trip to Nepal in 1993. I digitalised it years later - so any other other information must have been added in the digitalisation process. I am very happy for the photo to be uploaded to Commons or for any other use be made of it. I hope this answers any questions you might have. If not, please do not hesitate to contact me again. Sincerely, John Hill (talk) 23:54, 2 March 2014 (UTC)

Thanks

Thanks, Abstruce, for finding my earlier notes (of 23 August, 2009) on this book - I did not know where to begin looking for them. I thought they were quite detailed - but I had forgotten how much I had written. It is good to see it all again. I hope everyone can agree now that B. S. Nijjar's book is really not unbiased enough nor of high enough quality to be used as a reference in the Wikipedia. Cheers, John Hill (talk) 09:44, 2 March 2014 (UTC)

You are Welcome and Thank You, Dear Sincerely, ← Abstruce 07:36, 3 March 2014 (UTC)

RfC

Hi Dear John, I respectfully request You to comment at Talk:Rajput#Vaidya and Ojha. Thanks !! ← Abstruce 11:40, 31 May 2014 (UTC)

Possibly unfree File:Qashqai woven patterns.jpg

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A file that you uploaded or altered, File:Qashqai women weaving carpet.jpg, has been listed at Wikipedia:Possibly unfree files because its copyright status is unclear or disputed. If the file's copyright status cannot be verified, it may be deleted. You may find more information on the file description page. You are welcome to add comments to its entry at the discussion if you object to the listing for any reason. Thank you. Sfan00 IMG (talk) 09:49, 6 June 2014 (UTC)

There is no justification for labeling this file as "possibly unfree."

I got a letter clearly giving permission to publish this photo of Qashqai patterns from the photographer, M. Kiani, which I sent to Wikipedia in 2005. I am sorry I no longer have a copy of it as this took place 9 years ago - but Wikipedia's editors at the time were happy with his letter. It must be on Wikipedia's records somewhere. He had published this and other beautiful photos in his book: Kiani, M. 1999. Departing for the Anemone: Art in Gashgai Tribe. Kian nashr Publications, Shiraz. ISBN 964-91200-0-9.(This beautiful book has hundreds of photos, both black and white and colored, illustrating daily life of the Qashqai people, their rugs and weaving. The text is in Persian but the color photos also have English captions). He was very eager for them to be used on Wikipedia. There is absolutely no reason to label this file as "possibly unfree." I request that this unfair accusation be put to rest once and for all by Wikipedia's editors. Sincerely, John Hill (talk) 12:49, 6 June 2014 (UTC)

There is no justification for labeling this file File:Qashqai women weaving carpet.jpg as "possibly unfree."

I got a letter clearly giving permission to publish this photo of Qashqai patterns from the photographer, M. Kiani, which I sent to Wikipedia in 2005. I am sorry I no longer have a copy of it as this took place 9 years ago - but Wikipedia's editors at the time were happy with his letter. It must be on Wikipedia's records somewhere. He had published this and other beautiful photos in his book: Kiani, M. 1999. Departing for the Anemone: Art in Gashgai Tribe. Kian nashr Publications, Shiraz. ISBN 964-91200-0-9.(This beautiful book has hundreds of photos, both black and white and colored, illustrating daily life of the Qashqai people, their rugs and weaving. The text is in Persian but the color photos also have English captions). He was very eager for them to be used on Wikipedia. There is absolutely no reason to label this file as "possibly unfree." I request that this unfair accusation be put to rest once and for all by Wikipedia's editors. sincerely,John Hill (talk) 12:51, 6 June 2014 (UTC)

Hi, thanks for your reply. I have posted a note on the OTRS noticeboard to check the archives - the note is here: Wikipedia:OTRS_noticeboard#File:Qashqai_woven_patterns.jpg_and_File:Qashqai_women_weaving_carpet.jpg. Kind regards, Deadstar (talk) 08:41, 9 June 2014 (UTC)

File permission problem with File:Qashqai caravan halt.jpg

Thanks for uploading File:Qashqai caravan halt.jpg. I noticed that while you provided a valid copyright licensing tag, there is no proof that the creator of the file has agreed to release it under the given license.

If you are the copyright holder for this media entirely yourself but have previously published it elsewhere (especially online), please either

• make a note permitting reuse under the CC-BY-SA or another acceptable free license (see this list) at the site of the original publication; or
• Send an email from an address associated with the original publication to permissions-en@wikimedia.org, stating your ownership of the material and your intention to publish it under a free license. You can find a sample permission letter here. If you take this step, add {{OTRS pending}} to the file description page to prevent premature deletion.

If you did not create it entirely yourself, please ask the person who created the file to take one of the two steps listed above, or if the owner of the file has already given their permission to you via email, please forward that email to permissions-en@wikimedia.org.

If you believe the media meets the criteria at Wikipedia:Non-free content, use a tag such as {{non-free fair use}} or one of the other tags listed at Wikipedia:File copyright tags#Fair use, and add a rationale justifying the file's use on the article or articles where it is included. See Wikipedia:File copyright tags for the full list of copyright tags that you can use.

If you have uploaded other files, consider checking that you have provided evidence that their copyright owners have agreed to license their works under the tags you supplied, too. You can find a list of files you have created in your upload log. Files lacking evidence of permission may be deleted one week after they have been tagged, as described on criteria for speedy deletion. You may wish to read the Wikipedia's image use policy. If you have any questions please ask them at the Media copyright questions page. Thank you. TLSuda (talk) 02:12, 11 June 2014 (UTC)

File permission problem with File:Inside Qashqai tent.jpg

Thanks for uploading File:Inside Qashqai tent.jpg. I noticed that while you provided a valid copyright licensing tag, there is no proof that the creator of the file has agreed to release it under the given license.

If you are the copyright holder for this media entirely yourself but have previously published it elsewhere (especially online), please either

• make a note permitting reuse under the CC-BY-SA or another acceptable free license (see this list) at the site of the original publication; or
• Send an email from an address associated with the original publication to permissions-en@wikimedia.org, stating your ownership of the material and your intention to publish it under a free license. You can find a sample permission letter here. If you take this step, add {{OTRS pending}} to the file description page to prevent premature deletion.

If you did not create it entirely yourself, please ask the person who created the file to take one of the two steps listed above, or if the owner of the file has already given their permission to you via email, please forward that email to permissions-en@wikimedia.org.

If you believe the media meets the criteria at Wikipedia:Non-free content, use a tag such as {{non-free fair use}} or one of the other tags listed at Wikipedia:File copyright tags#Fair use, and add a rationale justifying the file's use on the article or articles where it is included. See Wikipedia:File copyright tags for the full list of copyright tags that you can use.

If you have uploaded other files, consider checking that you have provided evidence that their copyright owners have agreed to license their works under the tags you supplied, too. You can find a list of files you have created in your upload log. Files lacking evidence of permission may be deleted one week after they have been tagged, as described on criteria for speedy deletion. You may wish to read the Wikipedia's image use policy. If you have any questions please ask them at the Media copyright questions page. Thank you. TLSuda (talk) 02:12, 11 June 2014 (UTC)

File permission problem with File:Saw-shelled Turtle.jpg

Thanks for uploading File:Saw-shelled Turtle.jpg. I noticed that while you provided a valid copyright licensing tag, there is no proof that the creator of the file has agreed to release it under the given license. Thank you. TLSuda (talk) 02:14, 11 June 2014 (UTC)

I saw that you included the text of an email on the description, but email permission must be sent through WP:CONSENT. In this case, the permission would not be approved because the original copyright holder did not release the image under a specific free license. They get to choose, not us. We need a letter of permission from the original copyright holder (photographer) stating they release their image under (whatever license they choose) for us to be able to use it. Cheers, TLSuda (talk) 02:17, 11 June 2014 (UTC)

There is a similar situation with File:Sepik River initiations 1975.JPG, we need the written permission that you have for "free of copyright." The same is true for File:Rakaposhi 4.jpg, File:Rakaposhi 3.jpg, File:Cape York Peninsula Map.jpg. We also need to know who the original author of File:Flo Ziegfeld & Sandow c. 1893.jpg so we can truly know if the photo is in the public domain or not. Also, "free of copyright" doesn't truly have a legal meaning, as everything has, or has had a copyright, unless it is specifically released into the public domain. I've gone through all of your uploads, and cleaned up a bunch of material and licenses. Most of the photos that were over 100 years old were incorrectly licensed. Everything else is good, as far as I can tell. I know this is upsetting to have your work dissected like this, especially so late in the game, but this is part of the process we have to go through to ensure all media we are hosting is free. Somehow your files have slipped through the cracks for many years. With patience we will get through this, and I'm happy to help see this through fruition. Cheers, TLSuda (talk) 02:29, 11 June 2014 (UTC)

Reply to the file permission "problems".

Dear TLSuda:

Thank you for the above note where you explain your position. I do really respect the lengths the Wikipedia community goes to make sure proper copyright protection is given for images uploaded to it. I have always tried very hard to abide by these rules - but it seems now that maybe I did not understand them well enough. I am sorry - but this is all getting me really a bit down - especially as i went to a lot of trouble in each case to make certain I had the permission of each photographer.

I feel sure that, because of the care I took gaining permission, there should be no problems for Wikipedia and, in the unlikely event of ever any such thing occurring, would not my personal word that i did my very best and, in good faith, thought I had obtained proper permission for each photo, not hold some weight?

It is very difficult for me now to chase all these matters up - especially as I no longer have current email addresses for all the photographers and also that I am sick and bedridden.

I see that you have just written me another note about all the Qashgai photographs and I will therefore try to contact the photographer through a mutual old friend and colleague who I believe now lives, I believe, in Toronto.

This morning I have also written to Mr. Latta - the photographer of the photo of the Saw-shelled Turtle in the Wikipedia, and asked him to please try to write to you directly. I just hope he is still at his old address. Here is what I wrote to him today:

---

Original Message --------

Subject: Attention: Mr. Craig Latta. Date: Wed, 11 Jun 2014 13:11:20 +1000 From: John Hill <wynhill2@bigpond.net.au> To: aftforum@bigpond.com

Dear Mr. Latta:

In 2010 I wrote to you requesting permission to upload your outstanding photo of a Saw-shelled Turtle to the Wikipedia. It is still accessible on the Wikipedia at File:Saw-shelled Turtle.jpg. To see it - and to check all the copyright details - including a copy of your original message giving permission, either click on this link or copy it into your browser: https://en.wiki.x.io/wiki/File:Saw-shelled_Turtle.jpg

Unfortunately, Wikipedia seem to be becoming stricter about their copyright requirements and have questioned a number of photos I uploaded by other photographers (because I thought they would be enjoyed and of interest to a really wide audience), even though I sought and received permission from each photographer - sometimes, as in your case, more than once. This is becoming a major nuisance to me - especially as I am now handicapped and spend almost all my time in bed in pain and on heavy doses of medication.

I will paste in the note I have just been sent by one of the Wikipedia's editors and ask that, if you would still like to see it on Wikipedia, please write yourself to the editor giving permission again. I am so sorry to trouble you with all this.

Yours sincerely,

John Hill Cooktown, Queensland ........................................................... File permission problem with File:Saw-shelled Turtle.jpg[edit]

Thanks for uploading File:Saw-shelled Turtle.jpg. I noticed that while you provided a valid copyright licensing tag, there is no proof that the creator of the file has agreed to release it under the given license. Thank you. TLSuda (talk) 02:14, 11 June 2014 (UTC)

I saw that you included the text of an email on the description, but email permission must be sent through WP:CONSENT. In this case, the permission would not be approved because the original copyright holder did not release the image under a specific free license. They get to choose, not us. We need a letter of permission from the original copyright holder (photographer) stating they release their image under (whatever license they choose) for us to be able to use it. Cheers, TLSuda (talk) 02:17, 11 June 2014 (UTC)

There is a similar situation with File:Sepik River initiations 1975.JPG, we need the written permission that you have for "free of copyright." The same is true forFile:Rakaposhi 4.jpg, File:Rakaposhi 3.jpg, File:Cape York Peninsula Map.jpg. We also need to know who the original author of File:Flo Ziegfeld & Sandow c. 1893.jpg so we can truly know if the photo is in the public domain or not. Also, "free of copyright" doesn't truly have a legal meaning, as everything has, or has had a copyright, unless it is specifically released into the public domain. I've gone through all of your uploads, and cleaned up a bunch of material and licenses. Most of the photos that were over 100 years old were incorrectly licensed. Everything else is good, as far as I can tell. I know this is upsetting to have your work dissected like this, especially so late in the game, but this is part of the process we have to go through to ensure all media we are hosting is free. Somehow your files have slipped through the cracks for many years. With patience we will get through this, and I'm happy to help see this through fruition. Cheers, TLSuda (talk) 02:29, 11 June 2014 (UTC)

...............................................

If you do decide you want to contact this editor about the photo - you should be able to do so through his main page on the wikipedia at: http://en.m.wiki.x.io/wiki/User:TLSuda or his "Talk page" at: https://en.wiki.x.io/wiki/User_talk:TLSuda

Image placement

I notice that you work with images quite a bit, so I urge you to review WP:LAYIM and WP:IMAGELOCATION. Please avoid cluttering too many images in one section or on a page with sparse text. Also, section headings should be flush to the left and not displaced by images. The layout of the Silk Road page was very difficult to accomplish as there are so many images and not enough text to keep them from choking text. Squeezing text between images and quote boxes creates a cluttered appearance and is discouraged by the MOS. Thanks, Laszlo Panaflex (talk) 03:57, 14 June 2014 (UTC)

Lhasa Zhol Pillar

Dear John Hill, I was recently in Lhasa, and I was looking for the Zhol Pillar. There was a pillar between the old Zhol Village and the steps of the Potala, but the pillar was less than 10 feet tall and had no inscription on it. Furthermore, I was informed that the oldest example of Tibetan writing was on the Jokhang Lhasa treaty pillar. Does the original Lhasa Zhol Pillar still exist? or have the Chinese done something with it? 98.236.209.193 (talk) 14:23, 21 June 2014 (UTC)AKuntz

I have long been concerned about what might happen to the Lhasa Zhol Pillar. Even when I was there in 1993 it was impossible to get close enough to read the inscription. As you can see in my photo which heads the Wikipedia article, shops and other building had been placed around it, and at other spots wire fences barred people from approaching the pillar. I tried at the time to get close enough to it to take photos of the inscription but that was impossible. As the pillar recorded the 8th century conquests of much of China by the Tibetans, including the brief capture of the capital, Chang'an (modern Xi'an) and the establishment of a puppet "Emperor", it was, naturally, an unhappy reminder to the Chinese that Tibet once conquered much of their country. I have heard reports from others as well that it has been either removed or destroyed, but have no way of checking to find out the truth. Maybe other readers who have visited recently would be kind enough to inform us as to what has happened (and, if possible, provide up-to-date photos)? If you are happy for me to do so, I might place your note and my reply on the Talk page for the Lhasa Zhol Pillar so that more people will read them and know to look for it if they are visiting Lhasa. Please let me know if you are happy for me to do this. Sincerely, John Hill (talk) 22:45, 21 June 2014 (UTC)

June 2014

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Thanks so much for pointing this out mistake. As you said - it was easy to fix. Cheers, John Hill (talk) 09:08, 22 June 2014 (UTC)

Beothuk

Hi John.

I noticed that you added some photos recently to the Beothuk page. If possible, I would like to correspond with you about them. I can be reached at dapike@mun.ca

Thanks, - David. Dapike (talk) 11:10, 29 July 2014 (UTC)

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Email posts

I've deleted your posting of private emails in two places. Please don't do that again, you may not post such correspondence on Wikipedia without explicit permission: see WP:EMAILPOST. You may have to reinstate the ratings at Talk:Xigazê since I had to remove later material due to intervening edits. Acroterion (talk) 03:44, 8 August 2014 (UTC)

You’re welcome and thanks too.

Yo John, please see my reply on my talk page and please contact me through the "Email User" link on my user page. Cheers. --Macropneuma 03:57, 12 August 2014 (UTC)

Redirect

Hello. I see that you've blanked the redirect Chumathang with the edit summary that it was incorrect. Please be noted that, under WP:BLANK, pages should not be blanked and that blanking is not tantamount to a deletion. If you wish to delete the redirect, please bring it up at WP:RFD. Thanks. KJ ^Discuss? 00:18, 13 August 2014 (UTC)

Chumathang listed at Redirects for discussion

An editor has asked for a discussion to address the redirect Chumathang. Since you had some involvement with the Chumathang redirect, you might want to participate in the redirect discussion if you have not already done so. Safiel (talk) 03:27, 13 August 2014 (UTC)

• Further comment I again reverted your speedy deletion nomination of the above redirect. While you may make a deletion request, speedy deletion is the wrong process in this case. I have initiated a Redirects for Discussion on the redirect, as per the notice above. Please click the link and make your argument for deletion there. Thanks. Safiel (talk) 03:30, 13 August 2014 (UTC)

Thanks so much, Safiel. I have left a note and an apology for making extra work for you on the the redirect discussion page. Thanks for your patience. Sincerely, John Hill (talk) 03:44, 13 August 2014 (UTC)

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Removal of Photo of The Gyalwang Drukpa

You have continued to name "Drukchen Rinpoche" throughout. This is a century old mistake, which has been verified with the Gyalwang Drukpa's office. Many people have taken very good photos of the Gyalwang Drukpa, myself included, however I am reluctant to insert even my own photos here in Wikipedia, as it does not add value. If you insist, as you must have a reason, the photo must be having some value for you, please at least get the name correct. — Preceding unsigned comment added by ErikaMannings (talk • contribs) 04:11, 10 September 2014 (UTC)

Reply.

Dear Erika Mannings;

Thank you for pointing out that H.H. should be referred to now as The Gyalwang Drukpa and not Drukchen Rinpoche (or the nickname "Druk" He asked us to use when we first met in Hemis in 1981 just after he was installed as Abbot there). In any case, I have changed the photo for another one I took on the same visit which also shows his mother who accompanied him on a tour of all His associated establishments worldwide in 1991, as I think this photo may be of more interest. I have also requested that the file name be changed accordingly. Please let me know if you approve or have any other comments to make. Sincerely, John Hill (talk) 05:04, 10 September 2014 (UTC)

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Xigazê?

Hey, I was curious why you moved Shigatse to Xigazê when it is literally the example given at Wikipedia:Naming conventions (Tibetan)? I do a ton of cleanup on wikilinks and so finally I decided to check out the Naming Conventions page because Xigazê seems tendentious. Ogress _smash! 16:55, 17 September 2014 (UTC)

Hi! Thanks for your note. Please just change the title back if you think that is the correct thing to do. I had no idea the name has been discussed on the Naming Conventions page. I think that I became confused with all the discussion about the city itself (which seems to have been renamed again by the Chinese) and the region. I would prefer the old Tibetan name Shigatse for the city anyway - as it is long-established and better recognised by most people. Maybe we need two articles - one on the city of Shigatse and one on the prefecture? In any case, if you can tidy things up I would be most grateful indeed. Sincere apologies if I have caused any confusion or created difficulties for others. Sincerely, John Hill (talk) 23:37, 17 September 2014 (UTC)

Please stop

Nothing on blogspot may EVER be used as a reference. Please stop inserting it anywhere the panda ₯’ 15:42, 13 October 2014 (UTC)

Thank you for pointing this out. I will no longer use it as as reference but, instead, list it among the external links. Sincerely, John Hill (talk) 00:19, 14 October 2014 (UTC)

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Rosaleen Norton

Hi John. Have just read your article on Roee, whom I once met. Great article, but in the text it said Cecily was her sister, but in the info box it says she was her niece. Can we clear this up?

Sardaka (talk) 08:25, 6 November 2014 (UTC)

Reply

Hi Sardaka. Good to hear from you and good to get such an unexpected query! It brought back some fond memories of long ago. Cecily was Roie's sister - not her niece. There is a reference to this at the beginning of the Acknowledgements section of Nevill Drury's excellent book, Pan's Daughter: The Strange World of Rosaleen Norton, 1988. Collins Australia, p. vii. I will fix the page. Thanks for pointing this out. Cheers, John Hill (talk) 09:15, 6 November 2014 (UTC)

hi John, I was reading the page on Hemis monastery and have 2 questions I don't know if you can help with. 1 - it says the gompa was re-established in 1672 by singay namgyal, but on singye namgyal's page it says he died in 1642. I realise thiese things aren't always well referenced, but do you have a reference for the 1672 date? 2 - later the article says we think that the gompa existed before the 11th century. again, do you have any citation for this date Thanks for your help Nimat100, 6.11.14Nima t100 (talk) 16:57, 6 November 2014 (UTC)

Would you please help with Curcuma_australasica?

Hello! I've done some edits on Curcuma_australasica and see a need for a bit more copy-editing but can't do it given the fact that the two books cited are ones I don't have access to (via google books or amazon search-in-book). It seems that you started the article and cited these two, so I'm guessing you have them in your library. Would you be able to check your sources and do the copyediting to help sort out:

• what is meant by the comment about bracts?
• the first paragraph in Description, whether the 6 ft tall version is still a type of the native form (which is only 2 ft tall)?
• in the paragraph about the Aboriginal language name and historical use, it seems to be a mix of facts that pertain to Aboriginal use and other facts. Can you somehow sort this out? I'm really unclear on what the sources were saying.

Thank you!--Karinpower (talk) 03:35, 9 November 2014 (UTC)

Reply

Thank you, Karinpower, for pointing out these issues. I have attempted to correct them. Would you please have another look at the article and let me know if you think they have been dealt with adequately? Cheers, John Hill (talk) 04:54, 9 November 2014 (UTC)

Thanks, much improved! The only remaining issue is the sentence fragment: "From a capsule within pink-purple bracts." Thanks for collaborating on this. --Karinpower (talk) 04:58, 9 November 2014 (UTC)

Durga: File:Durga at Indian Army base gate.jpg

The image is inaccurately identified as Durga. She is in fact Bharat Mata, with the lion and India's national flag. I am removing the image. The plaque below the statue says it is Bharat Mata. --Redtigerxyz ^Talk 15:29, 17 November 2014 (UTC)

Dear Redtigerxyz - thank you so much for pointing this out. Unfortunately, I do not read Hindi and so I missed the importance of the plaque. I will re-upload the photo with corrected caption to the page on Bharat Mata. Cheers, John Hill (talk) 22:01, 17 November 2014 (UTC)

Ashina myths

I am trying to write something about the relevance of Asian religious lore to Greek and Roman religion and myhts, particularly these Ashina Wusun stuff to the Lykaia and Lupercalia plus the myth of Acca Larentia and the Fratres Arvales. As it looks very uncertain who and what is Prototurkish and what is Iranic I am a bit stuck. But obviously the myth and its meaning look to be identical and performing the same function. The literature is impressive and mostly in Russian or Turkish, languages I do not know.

As you have done a great deal of work on the issue I am writing for your opinion about the relevance-need to introduct this learned querelle in my work. It seems one of those topics that do not lead anywhere. I guess one could use the proper names found in ancient Chinese histories to try and identify these folks, but it is a highly specialistic and very speculative job. To me, and I am a profane, these names (e.g. those found in the Zhou Shu) sound Turkish or Tungusic.

In my opinion it looks however interesting the Etruscan connexion as they look to be Prototurkish (language and culture) and may have brought to Greece and Italy the customs and language of the Prototurks in the political sphere (palta, purthe, prutanis, balteus; tarqan, Tarquinius) as well as their religious lore, myth of the shewolf totem included. Of course this could have arrived independently.

Thank you for your kind attention.Aldrasto11 (talk) 08:32, 12 February 2015 (UTC)

Hi Aldrasto11. Thank you very much for your interesting note. It is indeed amazing how far the wolf origin myths spread very early across Eurasia. For example, the Roman myth about Romulus and Remus certainly finds echoes in the early Chinese accounts of the wolf suckling the founder of the Wusun leader - in spite of the fact that these cultures were separated by many thousand kilometers and several hundred years. Unfortunately, it is very difficult to track down the origins of these myths and how they spread and, as you correctly note, little is known about how to separate proto-Turkic and Iranic traditions.

Although I have read most of the Chinese accounts of the Wusun myths - I really don't know very much more about them. I am certainly no expert on early proto-Turkic and Iranic languages and cultures. So, I have taken the liberty of forwarding your notes to a friend of mine who is an expert on early Trukic cultures and has also translated some interesting articles from Russian into English. I will let you know what he says if and when he replies.

In the meantime, if you would be kind enough to send me your email address I would like to send you an article about the wolf legend and the Wusun.

Thanks for raising this interesting subject.

All best wishes for your research - please let me know if you turn up anything of interest.

Yours sincerely, John Hill (talk) 02:24, 14 February 2015 (UTC)

Dear John Hill, Thank you very much for your courteous reply and your helpfulness. May I just say that in my view the myth,

although recorded earlier in Italy, was probably born in Asia and travelled west. I say this on the basis of its more

complete preservation in the "Book of the Zhou" in which one finds many archaic features such as the transformation into

the swan, the matrilinear marriages, the rocking on a tree for the choice of the leader, the meaning and function of the cave that in Rome is almost lost etc.

You can forward mail to: maribianch@yahoo.com

Thank you again, I hope to bring more clarity about these topics concerning our classical world roots.

Yours sincerely04:24, 14 February 2015 (UTC)04:23, 14 February 2015 (UTC)

The signing did not work before, hope now it does...Aldrasto11 (talk) 12:19, 14 February 2015 (UTC)

Thank you very much for the articles, I read the one by the Mongol scholar. Very interesting the connexion of the wolf and the crow among Altaic peoples. Unfortunately he does not know about many details of the Roman myth: in fact in Rome too there is the motive of the mating of the shewolf in the figure of Acca Larentia, wife of Faustulus-Faunus and mother of the 12 Fratres Arvales, into whom Romulus is adopted; the Lupercal cave where the shewolf mates with the god Lupercus i.e. Faunus...In general there is a complete version of the myth that is not always and everywhere apparent. See e.g. the myth of Cyrus the founder of the Achemenids as compared to the whole story in the "Book of Zhou". I would like to add that the only obvious way of reaching a conclusion about the Tu Jue seems to be in trying to identify the language of the proper names, such as e.g. (A)pangbu, (Yizhi)nishidu, Naduliu(shi). Aldrasto11 (talk) 04:32, 15 February 2015 (UTC)

File:Kurdish woman daughters.jpg

Hi, could you add information in the file discription where you took the photo and the circumstances, so why they wear traditional clothes. Thank you. Greetings --Zulu55 (talk) 12:56, 23 March 2015 (UTC)

Hi! Thanks for your comment. I took this photo during a 6-week stay near Van, in eastern Turkey in 1973, where I was taking photos for an article on the Urartian civilisation for the National Geographic Magazine which, unfortunately, was never completed. At that time, there was considerable anti-Kurdish feeling and propaganda and Kurdish men were not allowed to wear their traditional clothes. However, it was common then to see Kurdish women in the region wearing their beautiful traditional clothes and not veiling their faces. Taking photos of the women was a pretty scary pastime, however. Although many women actually asked to be photographed, one woman warned me that, if their men caught me taking their photos they would kill me! The women generally positioned lookouts to warn us if Kurdish men were approaching, and then happily posed to have their photos taken, and thanked me after for doing so.

I was checked several times by the authorities and was actually roughed up a bit once and forced into a jeep and taken for hostile questioning in front of a mustachioed colonel in a large military base somewhere outside Van who spoke excellent English with an American accent (as I remember, he said he had trained in Colorado). I was only allowed to go free several long hours later after all my papers had been checked with Ankara.

A couple of times people tried to talk with me in the town of Van (including one old bearded man who spoke French) but were quickly surrounded on the street and hustled off before they could talk with me. I never discovered what this was all about - however, it must be remembered that, not only were the Turks having longstanding and ongoing problems with the Kurds, but Van is very close to the borders of Iran and the old U.S.S.R. and was, therefore, a very sensitive area.

I, and the people I was travelling with (my wife, step-daughter, and another family with 8 children), were forced to camp the whole time we were there in a small army communications base about 10 km south of the town of Van on the banks of beautiful Lake Van (just above the highway and a lovely small beach used by the soldiers) - presumably so they could keep a close eye on us. The authorities were clearly uncomfortable about me contacting and taking photos of Kurds and photographing archaeological sites, and obviously suspected me of some sort of nefarious activity. However, in the end, I was freely allowed to take all the photos I wanted and was generally treated very hospitably, by both the locals and the military.

Thank you for bringing this to my attention. I hope my story is of some interest. I will certainly update the information on the photo.

Sincerely, John Hill (talk) 23:57, 23 March 2015 (UTC)

Wow, thank you very much - it is certainly of interest. This tells so much more than just the picture. Thanks a lot!

PS: By the way: At german Wikipedia we try to enhance the colors of the picture: https://de.wiki.x.io/wiki/Wikipedia:Fotowerkstatt#File:Kurdish_woman_daughters.jpg_-_Wei.C3.9Fabgleich.3F --Zulu55 (talk) 09:54, 25 March 2015 (UTC)

Anthony of Padua

Hi John. I apologize if my intended 4 digit edit on "Anthony of Padua" disrupted in any way, an thanks again for fixing it. Best, kim9teen — Preceding unsigned comment added by Kim9teen (talk • contribs) 01:04, 4 April 2015 (UTC)

Appropriate forum to discuss self-published books is Reliable sources noticeboard

Hi, John,

I happened to see your message on another user's talk page, which I watch. The appropriate forum for discussing whether or not an author's self-published book is a reliable source is the Reliable sources notice board. I can tell you as a Wikipedian who is disinterested in the matter that you are discussing with the other editor (I haven't looked at the edits) that I myself would never post a link to my own publications on any Wikipedia page, as that also runs afoul of the Wikipedia conflict of interest policy, as the other editor mentioned to you on his talk page. -- WeijiBaikeBianji (talk, how I edit) 12:09, 15 April 2015 (UTC)

It is good to hear from another editor on this matter. I take your point about not usually referring to, or quoting from, your own work. However, in this field there is frequently a shortage of relevant sources in English. Furthermore, many of the references I have made to my own book were actually to quotes and translations of quotes I have made from other scholars - often from sources that are difficult to access. Thank you so much for your interest and advice. Sincerely, John Hill (talk) 12:19, 15 April 2015 (UTC)

I have left a posting at Wikipedia:Reliable sources/Noticeboard#Books by John Hill Bgwhite (talk) 20:39, 15 April 2015 (UTC)

I'm very worried about how you are taking this. I completely understand your hard feelings. Please know I'm not judging you or your vast knowledge on the silk road and other Asian subjects. You have improved articles and I hope you continue to do so. I also think you didn't intentionally try to promote your book and your intentions were to only improve articles. Bgwhite (talk) 20:58, 16 April 2015 (UTC)

Thank you very much for your kind and thoughtful note. Please don't worry - I understand what you have been trying to do - and what my edits must have looked like. It is very important that Wikipedia is not abused and articles distorted by people pushing their own barrows. It is just that I have been through this process before and had thought what I was doing was not only OK, but would update the articles and make it easier for readers to check references. However, you were not to know that - and I have no doubt that you did everything in good faith. Thanks again for your concern. All best wishes, John Hill (talk) 22:13, 16 April 2015 (UTC)

With DGG giving his comments at the noticeboard, I'll bow out. Maybe to not give the appearance of COI, Stephan Schulz could update the articles to list the new editions??? FYI... I landed on the articles because you did the ISBN's wrong. I think you added a colon after ISBN (ie ISBN:), which didn't allow the software to do its wikimagic. See WP:ISBN for more info. Bgwhite (talk) 20:19, 17 April 2015 (UTC)

Dromton . . . R A Stein quotation.

Hi John Hill, I have been working on the Dalai Lamas pages quite a bit as a newcomer, and the Ganden Tripa, adding stuff, and want to write more about the history of the DLs, and have been discussing with editors who are a bit hard to convince, as it were. One of them denies that Dromton is what you said he was in 2007 citing R A Stein; I found in the history that you had posted under Dromton's biography as follows:

"Dromtön is considered to be the 45th incarnation of Chenresig or Avalokiteshvara, the Bodhisattva of Compassion and, thus, part of the early lineage of the Dalai Lamas (the First Dalai Lama is said to have been the 51st incarnation)."

Now my opponent in debate who denies all this has added "need quotation to verify" on that reference so I wonder if you could extract a relevant quote from the book (which i don't have, obviously) which substantiates the whole sentence? And add it to the reference? Can you do that, please? I would much appreciate it. If you have time you can read my discussion with "Ogress" on the Dalai Lama talk page under "Section on History - is it relevant to this article?" The chapter title quotation can be inserted HERE if you wish to copy and paste this text:

The previous simple reference formatting can be deleted of course when you've done this. But you know that. It doesn't matter hw long the quote is - the more detailed the better as far as I'm concerned.

Sorry for the trouble and hope this is no problem for you - and that you still have the book handy! Sean Jones, France. MacPraughan (talk) 14:46, 21 May 2015 (UTC)

Hi Sean! Thanks so much for providing so many details on this interesting query making it easier for me to check. First, I should emphasize that the text I wrote on Dromtön was an attempted brief summary paraphrased from what R.A. Stein said - not an exact quote.

On rereading the whole passage I note that Stein makes a rather complex comment about these incarnations of Avalokiteśvara - one that I find rather difficult to fully understand. It is clear that the present Dalai Lama is considered to be a reincarnation of the First Dalai Lama, and both are incarnations of Avalokiteśvara, as is Dromtön. Whether this makes Dromtön "part of the early lineage of the Dalai Lamas" is, on reflection, beyond my expertise to decide. I think it would be best to put this question to some recognised Tibetan authority on such matters.

The quote I was referring to is as follows:

"Tibet has often been described as a theocratic state. That is true to the extent that, in recent centuries, a central government, has been headed by the Dalai Lama: the incarnation—indirectly, it is true—of Avalokiteśvara, Tibet's patron bodhisattva, whose statue stands in the capital. There was a precedent for this: the same deity had already been incarnated in Tibet's first centralizing king, Songtsen Gampo, who at his death dissolved and melted into the same statue. It would be more accurate, however, to speak of an ecclesiastical state: first, because other hierarchs have ruled the whole or part of Tibet, some also incarnations and others not; but mainly because the Dalai Lama is not, any more than the Panchen Lama or any other incarnate lama, Avalokiteśvara's direct incarnation, repeated every time. Like all the others, he is the rebirth of the historical figure he was in his preceding life, a link in the chain that starts in history and leads back through legend to a deity in mythical times. The First Dalai Lama, Gedün-trup (1391-1474), was already the 51st incarnation; the teacher Dromtön, Atiśa's disciple (eleventh century), the 45th; whilst the 26th, one Gesar king of India, and the 27th, a hare, we are in pure legend." Stein (1972), pp. 138-139.

It may help anyone trying to decide whether the Dalai Lamas are considered to be reincarnations of Dromtön to consider the following quote:

“Who is the Dalai Lama? A man? A monk? A god? Leonard van der Kuijp surveys the prehistory of the Dalai Lama as a divinity, as the bodhisattva Avalokiteśvara. How and when did the Dalai Lamas come to be associated with the most important Buddhist celestial being in Tibet? Van der Kuijp provides answers to these questions in this study of the history of an idea. If the Dalai Lamas are the most famous embodiments of Avalokiteśvara in Tibet, they are by no means the first leaders to have been identified with the bodhisattva. Van der Kuijp places the origins of the tradition as early as the eleventh century, when the institution builder Dromtön was invested with the authority and status of Avalokiteśvara by his Indian guest, the Buddhist scholar Atiśa. In Atiśa’s telling, Dromtön was not only Avalokiteśvara but also a reincarnation of former Buddhist monks, laypeople, commoners, and kings. Furthermore, these reincarnations were all incarnations of that very same being, Avalokiteśvara. Van der Kuijp takes us on a tour of literary history, showing that the narrative attributed to Atiśa became a major source for both incarnation and reincarnation ideology for centuries to come.” From: “The Dalai Lamas and the Origins of Reincarnate Lamas. Leonard W. J. van der Kuijp” In: The Tibetan History Reader by Tuttle and Schaffer, 2013, p. 335.

I hope I haven't made this rather complex area of Tibetan Buddhist theology even murkier. i think we need expert help to make a final decision. I do hope it can be resolved satisfactorily.

Sincerely, John Hill (talk) 22:37, 21 May 2015 (UTC)

References

Talkback

Hello, John Hill. You have new messages at Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Spam.
Message added 08:46, 2 June 2015 (UTC). You can remove this notice at any time by removing the {{Talkback}} or {{Tb}} template.

— Jeraphine Gryphon ^(talk) 08:46, 2 June 2015 (UTC)

A barnstar for you!

	The Photographer's Barnstar
	Hi John, thank you very much for uploading so many nice photos on Wikipedia and Commons. Cheers. Human3015TALK  18:29, 9 September 2015 (UTC)

Sage Kuchi Dog

Sir, I don't exactly what you posted to the Kuchi dog page, but would like to know more about the Kuchi dog and who the experts are. Alex

Linnehanaj@yahoo.com174.110.72.125 (talk) 02:54, 10 November 2015 (UTC)

Disambiguation link notification for November 16

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text permission request

Hi John,

I work for Oxford University Press and am inquiring about permission to reprint an excerpt from your translation, 'John E. Hill, trans., “The Western Regions according to the Hou Hanshu,” Through the Jade Gate -- China to Rome: A Study of The Silk Routes 1st to 2nd Centuries CE, Volume 1 (Charleston, South Carolina: CreateSpace, 2015), 23-25.'

Can you get in touch with me about this? cailen.swain@oup.com

many thanks!74.216.209.75 (talk) 18:38, 20 November 2015 (UTC)

ArbCom elections are now open!

Hi,
You appear to be eligible to vote in the current Arbitration Committee election. The Arbitration Committee is the panel of editors responsible for conducting the Wikipedia arbitration process. It has the authority to enact binding solutions for disputes between editors, primarily related to serious behavioural issues that the community has been unable to resolve. This includes the ability to impose site bans, topic bans, editing restrictions, and other measures needed to maintain our editing environment. The arbitration policy describes the Committee's roles and responsibilities in greater detail. If you wish to participate, you are welcome to review the candidates' statements and submit your choices on the voting page. For the Election committee, MediaWiki message delivery (talk) 12:57, 23 November 2015 (UTC)

Reply to Anonymous

Dear Anonymous: First of all - I will mainly reply to the very critical note you added to the page Talk:Christianity in India - as I don't think it would be useful to argue about the many other issues you raise which seem to have little bearing on this article. I will discuss some of the reasons why I reversed your edit below.

However, I do feel I must object to your totally unjustified attacks on me personally, and your unfounded assumptions - such as insinuating that I support "western supremacy" and that I might be a fundamentalist Christian - neither of which is true. In fact I have, since my youth, frequently argued against both "western supremacy" and so-called "fundamentalist Christainity" (in the sense of militant, puritanical Christianity) and, for that matter, similar extreme "fundamentalist" branches of other religions and political philosophies. But, most important here is the fact, that they are not in the least pertinent to the discussion of Christianity in India. So, please stop these rude, unjustified ad hominen attacks!

Let us try to stay focussed. You called the tradition (or story or myth if you prefer)of St. Thomas coming to India , a "lie." These are harsh words indeed, and probably very hurtful to the Indian Christians who believe in them. Wikipedia is, I believe, not an apropriate place to attack people's religious beliefs. There is still a considerable community of believers of this tradition who live in Kerala, South India. See the WP article: Saint Thomas Christians for more details (and, again, you will find many references which you find interesting to check).

Furthermore, your note was full of inaccuracies. To give just one example, you write: ". . . how is it believable that primitive Europeans of 1st century had such ships to reach India?" Unfortunately, you seem to be unaware of the facts of history. There was, by the 1st century CE, a major organised and regular maritime trade between Roman Egypt and India. This is absolutely firmly established - through numerous historical records and extensive archaeological evidence. The latter includes, amongst a mass of other evidence, many thousands of early Roman gold coins found in India - which back up the accounts in the literature of the time that the Romans traded gold and silver coins (and other products) with India for spices, and many other products, including even Chinese silks.

For a start, I recommend you read the Wikipedia article Indo-Roman trade relations and check out some of the many excellent references given there. It may be of interest to you that the Chinese historical annals actually record the arrival of envoys from Da Qin (the Roman Empire) in China in 166 CE (or AD). See, for example: Book of the Later Han, and report that traders from the Roman Empire followed, and there is plenty of historical and archaeological evidence showing that ships from the Roman Empire were regualarly visiting India, Sri Lanka and SE Asia during the first two centuries CE. This shows your strange claim that "primitive Europeans" of the first century were incapable of reaching India by sea to be totally unfounded.

So, Sir or Madam, please check your facts first before attacking others and, please, stop accusing me of promoting things I certainly don't believe in. I found your wild accusations not just unjustified and clearly false, but personally hurtful. I ask you to please apologise. Sincerely, John Hill (talk) 07:39, 29 November 2015 (UTC)

Masks