Template talk:Infobox university

Use of latin_name for romanization

Several universities, for example V. Dokuchaev Kharkiv National Agrarian University, have native names in the Cyrillic Script and have romanizations listed in the latin_name field. I had removed some as obviously not Latin before I realized that's what was meant. Should the rest be removed as well? Should there be a field for romanization? Does the romanization belong in the lede? McYeee (talk) 21:48, 15 August 2024 (UTC)

Per Wikipedia:Manual of Style/Romanization of Ukrainian, it looks like the {{lang-uk}}, {{lang}} or {{transl}} templates is the preferred method of giving both Cyrillic and romanized forms of Ukrainian names. I assume this would apply in the infobox as well, so using one of these templates in the "name=" field would seem the best approach, e.g.:

:name={{lang-uk| Харківський національний аграрний університет ім. В.В. Докучаєва| translit= Kharkivskyi natsionalnyi ahrarnyi universytet im. V.V. Dokuchaieva| translit-std= ungegn}}

Robminchin (talk) 23:12, 15 August 2024 (UTC)

Do you mean

::native_name={{lang-uk| Харківський національний аграрний університет ім. В.В. Докучаєва| translit= Kharkivskyi natsionalnyi ahrarnyi universytet im. V.V. Dokuchaieva| translit-std= ungegn}}

or something else? I think name is for English? McYeee (talk) 03:14, 16 August 2024 (UTC)

Yes, so busy working out the other template I got confused on this one! Robminchin (talk) 04:07, 16 August 2024 (UTC)

Done. Is there an easy way to search for university infoboxes with names listed in Cyrillic? If so, I'll look into fixing more of them. McYeee (talk) 22:18, 16 August 2024 (UTC)

I don't know of one I'm afraid. There might be some clever thing that can be done with maintenance categories but that's not something I know much about. Robminchin (talk) 23:53, 16 August 2024 (UTC)

Darn. Thanks McYeee (talk) 19:48, 17 August 2024 (UTC)

McYeeeI'm going to play around with regex. I think that having the infobox in an article and then name (making sure native name doesn't hit) followed by an equals, and then at least one Cyrillic letter prior to the next pipe or closing brace would be what you are looking for, right? If you could tell me one that still needs to be fixed, that would help. (for Cyrillic letter, I'm going to use the range from A (Cyrillic) to Ya (Cyrillic). I know that might miss some letters, but I'm betting no university name will *only* have Cyrillic letters that are non-Slavic. Naraht (talk) 23:15, 17 August 2024 (UTC)

Can't seem to get it working the way I want any examples, I can try to get to ping on?Naraht (talk) 23:29, 17 August 2024 (UTC)

I think I may have explained my request poorly. Here's an example of what I'm looking for. Donetsk State University of Management. What's listed as Latin is actually a romanization, not a Latin name. I believe there are a few more of these and I may have deleted some of them thinking they were patent nonsense rather than a misuse of the template. What I was hoping to do is go through the list of universities with Cyrillic in their native names which also have latin listed to check to see if they are romanizations.

Also, can you link me to where I can run a regex search on field values? McYeee (talk) 23:55, 17 August 2024 (UTC)

See https://en.wiki.x.io/w/index.php?search=insource%3A%2Fnfobox+University%2F+insource%3A%2F%5B%5C%7C+%5Dname+%2A%3D+%2A%5B%5E%7D%5C%7C%5D%2B%5B%D0%B0%D0%90%5D%2F&title=Special:Search&profile=advanced&fulltext=1&ns0=1&ns1=1&ns2=1&ns3=1&ns4=1&ns5=1&ns6=1&ns7=1&ns8=1&ns9=1&ns10=1&ns11=1&ns12=1&ns13=1&ns14=1&ns15=1&ns100=1&ns101=1&ns118=1&ns119=1&ns710=1&ns711=1&ns828=1&ns829=1 , maybe I'm missing something, but I think in additon to having Infobox University, it has name (but with a space or pipe before) the the equals (with spaces) and then some number of characters that aren't pipe or close brace and then either an A in Cyrillic (either upper or lower), if I could get this to work, I'd expand to more Cyrillic letters.Naraht (talk) 23:59, 17 August 2024 (UTC)

We want native_name to by Cyrillic. This revised search does that, but we also want to restrict it to pages with the latin field set McYeee (talk) 00:03, 18 August 2024 (UTC)

Thoughts on latin_name

Someone mentioned recently that this parameter is probably being overused. Unfortunately I can't find that post now, but I have had some thoughts on what "University name in Latin, if commonly referenced" means:

1. This is for the university's Latin name, not a translation into Latin of the English name. If there no evidence that a Latin name is ever used, this parameter should be blank.
2. If the only usage is on the university seal and degree certificates, which are self-published primary sources, this is evidence of the name existing, per WP:ABOUTSELF, but does not demonstrate that the name is "commonly referenced". Putting the Latin name in the infobox on the basis of this is likely to be WP:UNDUE
3. If the Latin name is "commonly referenced", it should be relatively easy to find evidence of the Latin name, possibly in abbreviated form (such as in post-nominals), used in WP:RELIABLE sources.

And, on a related topic:

• The Latin name should be in the nominative (with universitas or collegium for university of college), but sources may use a different Latin declension (seals and. In particular, seals will often have something like Sigillum Universitatis Illyriensis (Seal of the University of Illyria) on them, using the genetive form. Degree certificates may also have something like Praecis et Coratores Universitatis Illyriensis (The President and Trustees of the University of Illyria), again using the genetive. WP:Competence is required means that editors need to be able to recognise and deal with this if they're going to edit this parameter. Robminchin (talk) 23:36, 23 August 2024 (UTC)

Thanks for bringing this up; I've certainly argued for less use of this parameter. I'd also like to add that post nominals can sometimes be abbreviations of English as in Soton and that, because of the way adjectives also decline in Latin, it requires some skill to determine whether the nominative is Illyriensis or Illyriense. McYeee (talk) 23:58, 23 August 2024 (UTC)

Is there consensus here? If not, assuming no one else says anything, how much longer should we wait? McYeee (talk) 20:18, 26 August 2024 (UTC)

I'd normally leave it a week to give people a chance to comment and discuss how best to implement this in the documentation. Robminchin (talk) 20:44, 26 August 2024 (UTC)

Should we edit the documentation? McYeee (talk) 22:23, 3 September 2024 (UTC)

For the new documentation, possibly something like: "University name in Latin, if commonly referenced. This should not simply be a translation of the English name but should have a reliable independent reference showing use (possibly in abbreviated form) as the Latin name. Use only seen in self-published, primary sources, such as the institution's seal or degrees, is likely to be WP:UNDUE in the infobox. The name should be given in the Nominative." How does this sound? Robminchin (talk) 15:59, 5 September 2024 (UTC)

That looks good to me. I've updated the documentation to your wording, except that the links don't seem to render. I have no idea why they don't, but I don't think it has anything to do with my edit. McYeee (talk) 19:59, 6 September 2024 (UTC)

I looked back in the history, and it seems that other links aren't rendering in the documentation from before your edit. I thought they had worked in the past (and clearly people have added them in the past), so maybe something has broken in the rendering engine? Robminchin (talk) 20:49, 6 September 2024 (UTC)

They did. archived I wonder if it's a known bug. McYeee (talk) 22:32, 6 September 2024 (UTC)

Template-protected edit request on 11 September 2024

Please include the following "Sanctioned Entity " Nbarchaeo (talk) 19:02, 11 September 2024 (UTC)

You need to first establish consensus that this should be included. It doesn't seem obvious that this is a relevant parameter. Robminchin (talk) 21:22, 11 September 2024 (UTC)

About the infobox images, seal, and logo...

I am going around to the various infoboxes to update the style so that logos (and by extension, seals), are visible in the Dark Mode (see User:Robertsky/To-do/Infoboxes). The use of the image parameter here is rather fluid dependent on whether there are seal and/or logo available. (This also means that there is no images of the universities in the infobox apparently?).

As there are plenty of infoboxes to go through, I would like to solicit feedback in the meantime, in addition to the Dark Mode changes, to other potential adjustments to the infobox such that there will be:

1. seal= parameter;
2. someway to dynamically set seal and logo position based on the presence of the values in both seal and logo parameters. Some positions I have observed so far:
   1. seal -> other params -> logo
   2. logo -> other params
   3. seal --> other params
3. some semi-automated work to sort through the articles to update the infobox with the new parameter.

– robertsky (talk) 12:47, 30 September 2024 (UTC)

Feel free to experiment in the sandbox. You can also look at the "monthly parameter usage report" linked from the documentation to get a sense of how parameters are used. – Jonesey95 (talk) 17:54, 1 October 2024 (UTC)

Unrelated but any thoughts on the Latin name parameter (see below) would be appreciated. Queen Douglas DC-3 (talk) 01:18, 16 November 2024 (UTC)

Latin name

I propose that a) the Latin name field should not be used to link to Latin Wikipedia articles and b) every instance of the field should have either a citation or a {{citation needed}} tag. Does anyone object to that, or have a good idea how to apply that change to a bunch of articles? McYeee (talk) 04:15, 3 November 2024 (UTC)

(a) seems reasonable and should be readily accomplishable by script. (b), though, is a bit more of an issue, because it is possible that the claim might be cited in the body, in which case a citation/cn in the template would not be necessary. Nikkimaria (talk) 04:35, 3 November 2024 (UTC)

For (a), is this the kind of thing I should request AWB permissions for so I can use JWB, or would you expect it to be more involved than that? For (b), I guess that makes sense, but it still seems like it should be cited in both places; are you saying that a {{cn}} is just overkill for that kind of not-quite-perfect citing? McYeee (talk) 04:44, 3 November 2024 (UTC)

There's not normally a need to add references to things in the lead that are referenced in the body. As it says in MOS:CITELEAD, "Because the lead usually repeats information that is in the body, editors should balance the desire to avoid redundant citations in the lead with the desire to aid readers in locating sources for challengeable material." Having said that, if the Latin name is only cited in the context of words on a university seal or some such, this may not establish that it is important enough to put in the lead – but that's a different issue. Robminchin (talk) 05:56, 3 November 2024 (UTC)

Thanks! For some reason I'd assumed that infoboxes weren't considered part of the lead. I stand corrected. McYeee (talk) 07:37, 3 November 2024 (UTC)

Unless there's a format that's much more widely used, it appears there's only about 30 instances where this parameter is linked to Latin Wikipedia, so I don't think even AWB is needed - it could be fixed manually pretty quickly. Nikkimaria (talk) 01:01, 4 November 2024 (UTC)

I didn't realize the search function did that. Thanks! I've unlinked that Latin from those pages. McYeee (talk) 03:53, 4 November 2024 (UTC)

I think we should directly address the fundamental question: Why is this parameter in the infobox? Why do we think that the Latin name of a college or university is so important that it must be included in the lede? From my perspective as a scholar of US higher education, I see no value in this parameter for US institutions as the Latin name of an institution is so rarely used that it's just obscure trivia. Am I mistaken? Is this wildly different for other countries? ElKevbo (talk) 13:36, 3 November 2024 (UTC)

I think that at least part of the reason people consider the Latin name important is because, for a lot of universities, it was historically the common name, at least in writing. Historians probably care more than scholars of modern higher education, I think. McYeee (talk) 21:43, 3 November 2024 (UTC)

There are a small number of universities where the Latin name is used regularly in postnominals (Oxon, Cantab, Dunelm, etc.) or is used used around campus (e.g., Dunelm House; the Dunelmensis Award for alumni). However, as with other parameters in the infobox, it has been used all over the place rather than just when it is "commonly referenced" as the docs have it. In most cases, it could be deleted as there isn't evidence that the Latin name is commonly referenced. Robminchin (talk) 21:45, 3 November 2024 (UTC)

Oddly though, not all postnominals are Latin. University of Southampton is soton. It's probably also worth mentioning non-anglophone universities like the University of Bologna which are old enough that the name seems important. McYeee (talk) 21:56, 3 November 2024 (UTC)

Recommend remove: Hello! This is a modified paste from my talk page but please note that I'm NOT an expert on the topic at all. Based on the little that I know, Latin used to be an academic language used in Europe and the early colonies when there weren't as many universities as there are now. For context, there are maybe four Australian universities with Latin names and it is only actively used by UQ. I believe that a lot of new editors using VisualEditor assume that Wikipedia expects them to translate university names to Latin for some reason and that is likely why editors keep attaching false Latin names to university articles. It is associated with ancient and colonial universities and aren't really useful in a world where English is the de facto academic language. The other issue is that although I've added a bunch of Latin names for universities with sources, it doesn't actually mean that they were ever used outside of one or two instances. While the sources are reliable, the context surrounding the sources are dubious. Additionally, a lot of American universities only have it on their seals and it shouldn't be used in those instances at all. The parameter should be removed altogether and the older universities with actual Latin names, like Harvard and Pennsylvania, should mention it under a free label. There weren't a lot of universities in existence when Latin names were used so having it be a universal feature in an infobox used on 27,000 articles is odd and will only lead to more editors being confused. The feature is likely an obsolete remnant that only still exists because nobody knows its purpose but there are existing alternative and native name parameters, and free labels, so it doesn't need to exist. Queen Douglas DC-3 (talk) 00:26, 12 November 2024 (UTC)

Another paste: According to this document, scholarly use of Latin started being replaced by English at around 1500. It only mentions the English-speaking world though but it should be enough considering that this is English Wikipedia, only five Australian universities have ever used Latin names and all universities founded before 1600 are ancient universities that predate the colonial colleges. Newer American universities with Latin names in their seals shouldn't use the parameter based on just that. Queen Douglas DC-3 (talk) 00:44, 12 November 2024 (UTC)

TLDR; Since there were few universities in existence when Latin and Latin names were used, the parameter should be removed from an infobox used on 27,000 articles to prevent confusing new editors using VisualEditor. There are existing ways to display a Latin name where applicable so the feature is redundant. Alternatively, is there any way to hide it unless explicitly used? Queen Douglas DC-3 (talk) 00:50, 12 November 2024 (UTC)

I don't think we can ignore the non-English-speaking world. If it were, for example, that the common name of the University of Michigan was derived from Universitas Michiganensium in most European Languages, it seems like it would make sense to include it in the infobox. I have no idea if this is the case, but I'm a bit worried that this is a Chesterton's Fence. McYeee (talk) 01:10, 12 November 2024 (UTC)

Most of the Latin names cited on articles both before and after I started adding references were from congratulatory letters between universities during anniversaries. This includes Universitas Michiganensium, which was previously Universitas Michigania on the article which I couldn't find a reference for. Latin names are mostly just used on degree parchments these days as graduation glitter. There are some cases where it may be important to mention in the lead (e.g. Sapienza University of Rome was founded as Studium Urbus) but there's no reason why it can't be included in other names instead. I have a friend who studied Latin in university so I'll ask him but he doesn't check his messages often. Queen Douglas DC-3 (talk) 01:43, 12 November 2024 (UTC)

Hello again! I checked with my friend (not a reliable source) and he basically just said what's already in the UOW summary except that it was still used for scholarly texts up to the 18th century in education and science and that it is still an important language for classical works. When I was expanding the University of Adelaide article, I remember reading that Latin was taught since its inception so that might explain why. It's also still used for taxonomy and religious works, including at the Vatican. I'm now leaning towards a soft keep as Latin names may be useful for readers to find older works produced by universities. This is my best theory so far for why it may be in the template, since there's never actually been a discussion on this topic. Do you know if there's a way to check which articles are using the Latin name parameter so I can manually check them and add references? I reckon I can do about 1000 articles starting next week. Thanks! Queen Douglas DC-3 (talk) 09:42, 13 November 2024 (UTC)

Rather than adding references, it might be better to delete the Latin name from the infobox of institutions when it isn't "commonly referenced", then people looking at existing articles to see what parameters are normally filled in would not see it. Robminchin (talk) 01:04, 14 November 2024 (UTC)

I have removed most of the Latin names that weren't easily verifiable or appear to be mentioned only on their seals. There's a lot of them still up and I may have removed false positives. I still need to do one more run to check whether the sources I've added are reliable. I wasn't able to use direct references or check Wikipedia Latin for sources due to the scale of the problem and the fact that there are a lot of "sources" appear to have used Wikipedia. Based on the number that will likely remain after the less reliable Latin names are removed, I really don't think the benefits of having a designated Latin name parameter outweighs the high likelihood that newer editors will be confused and provide direct translations using VisualEditor. This feature seems obsolete, and a bit elitist, and it may be a better long-term solution to add the Latin names using the native names parameter for the very small number of remaining universities. Even then, to what extent have they even used it? There doesn't seem to be anyone here who knows why it's a separate function and this topic has never been discussed before. Queen Douglas DC-3 (talk) 20:49, 15 November 2024 (UTC)

Do we even need a Latin name? Queen Douglas DC-3 (talk) 20:54, 15 November 2024 (UTC)

As mentioned above, Latin names have traditionally been used (in abbreviated form) in postnominals, as in the example in the post-nominal letters article: ""Sir Edward Elgar, Mus.D. (Oxon., Cantab., Dunelm. et Yale, U.S.A.), LL.D. (Leeds, Aberdeen, and W. University, Pennsylvania.)", so there's little doubt that they have been used and there are numerous examples showing that this use continues (e.g.,). As also mentioned above, there are also non-English speaking universities where the Latin names could be important. I also don't think that editors not following documentation is a particularly good reason to remove a parameter. Robminchin (talk) 22:42, 15 November 2024 (UTC)

Just because a very small number of old British universities use Latin post-nominals is not a good reason to keep it. This template is used in over 27,000 articles. Even in a world where everyone is British, how many universities in the UK are even using Latin post-nominals? Can't it be mentioned elsewhere? Perhaps the native or other name parameter? Queen Douglas DC-3 (talk) 23:51, 15 November 2024 (UTC)

Robminchin (talk) 22:42, 15 November 2024 (UTC)

I am happy to defer to colleagues like Robminchin who have knowledge and evidence that Latin names are still used by and for a sizeable number of colleges and universities. They're not commonly used in the U.S. but this is an international project and this infobox is used for colleges and universities around the world so the use (or lack thereof) by one country should not dictate the parameters of this infobox. (I still maintain that a U.S.-focused infobox would serve us better but that is not the current situation.) ElKevbo (talk) 22:49, 15 November 2024 (UTC)

As the only person on the entirety of Wikipedia who has ever manually checked over 500 uncited Latin names in infoboxes, removed them or added citations to them, I can say without a doubt in my mind that they don't belong there. Almost none of them, not even Oxford or Harvard, had references. Even the most credible sources are not much more than a compilation of old happy anniversary cards that don't show that they were ever used outside of that very specific context. I just painstakingly checked 472 Latin names in the past two days alone. They don't belong here. Almost none of the 200 references I've added show that they're or ever were commonly referenced.

Latin post-nominals are not used in Australia-New Zealand either. The references to Latin names that I've added to the Universities of Sydney, Melbourne, Adelaide and Queensland articles don't show that they are used at all. It's extremely fringe and the University of Queensland, the only to actively use theirs, only use it on their degree parchments. And these are some of the best examples. Why were there so many universities established in the 21st century with Latin names? Queen Douglas DC-3 (talk) 00:45, 16 November 2024 (UTC)

Additionally, the almost 200 references include ones I've added before the last two days. I've added 151 references in the past two days. Having previously supported keeping the parameter, skimming through the sources have convinced me that it should be removed. Queen Douglas DC-3 (talk) 00:57, 16 November 2024 (UTC)

TLDR; the redundant inclusion of Latin names in the lead serves as little more than obscure trivia universally backed by almost no suitable references. Queen Douglas DC-3 (talk) 01:09, 16 November 2024 (UTC)

So, as I suggested above, why not simply delete the ones that are not "commonly referenced", in accordance with the documentation? Why the need to remove it from everywhere, including those where it is commonly referenced? I was able to identify three easily in Britain where it is obvious in the postnominals; there may be others that can't be so easily identified but where examples would be known to editors of those pages. In Europe, it took only a couple of minutes to track down a 21st century book from Springer referring to Bologna as "the Alma Mater Studiorum or the Universitas Bononiensis". It may well also be the case for other European universities. Just because Latin names aren't used much in Australia, that's no excuse for removing then from everywhere. This is an international encyclopedia. Robminchin (talk) 05:47, 16 November 2024 (UTC) Robminchin (talk) 05:47, 16 November 2024 (UTC)

Because every single Latin name except for the university where you studied is not "commonly referenced". I just manually checked 500 of them and the quality of their sources. There are around 166 universities in the UK and you have only mentioned three of them. Even if there's significantly more, which there isn't, they still aren't "commonly referenced". This parameter does little more than serve as academic boosterism for a small number older universities. Even in your examples, identifying three that use Latin post-nominals is not good enough to keep it as a parameter used in over 27,000 articles. Why are the examples you provide always of old universities? Do you know how many universities were in existence when the University of Bologna was founded? Zero. I'm sorry if I seem critical but the argument to keep it in the infobox is still not supported. Queen Douglas DC-3 (talk) 08:03, 16 November 2024 (UTC)

Also, I feel bad for mentioning your alma mater. I meant that a broader perspective may be needed when determining the usefulness of the parameter and don't mean to make any accusations. Queen Douglas DC-3 (talk) 08:15, 16 November 2024 (UTC)

Here are some of my arguments so far:

• Almost all Latin names lack common and contemporary usage.
• Almost all Latin names are exclusively used on seals or parchments.
• Latin names serve as obscure trivia in the lead section.
• Verifying the accuracy and use of Latin names is challenging.
• In almost all instances, Latin names are not relevant nor important.
• In limited cases, like Bologna, it could be added in native names.
• Service as academic boosterism towards older universities.
• Adds a sense of elitism and academic heirarchy on Wikipedia.
• The lack of consistency in what is regarded as common use.
• Almost all of the sources don't prove that they're commonly used.
• For most readers, the Latin name is not useful enough for the lead.
• Mostly reflects as an artefact from when Latin was used by scholars.
• The fact that I've just checked 500 different Latin names.
• Almost none of the remaining 200 I've left up have common use.
• Lacks the "international encyclopedia" perspective mentioned.
• The fact that this template is used on over 27,000 articles.
• The proved potential for confusion among new editors using VE.
• Has already spread false Latin names to secondary sources.
• Creates a feedback loop of spreading misinformation.

After I "delete the ones that are not commonly referenced" there would would be almost none left. This is after considering the fact that I've personally deleted over 300 of them. The remaining 200, despite the references I've added, aren't commonly used either. The addition of this parameter lacks any real purpose and should be removed. It is obsolete and redundant. Queen Douglas DC-3 (talk) 09:41, 16 November 2024 (UTC)

Even among universities exclusively in Europe, the proportion of universities in each country that use Latin names in any remote context is not high enough to counter the negatives posed by the feature. Queen Douglas DC-3 (talk) 09:51, 16 November 2024 (UTC)

Additionally, a lot of those universities already have their Latin names on their seals making the parameter redundant. Queen Douglas DC-3 (talk) 22:10, 16 November 2024 (UTC)

I understand the concerns raised in this discussion, but I believe there are valid reasons for keeping Latin names in university infoboxes, especially for institutions in continental Europe. In many predominantly Catholic countries, Latin names are still used in academic contexts, and for historical institutions, they reflect important cultural and academic traditions. Even for newer universities, the use of Latin names can be an established practice. While it’s true that Latin names are not widely used in everyday contexts, their inclusion in Wikipedia infoboxes serves to preserve academic and historical details (for example, names are clearly part of ceremonial aspect of academic life in many places, they are used in logos, graduation ceremonies, diplomas etc.). Removing them entirely could overlook the cultural significance of these names, particularly in universities with long histories or those in non-English-speaking countries. Instead of a blanket removal, I suggest that we take a more nuanced approach, verifying each case individually and retaining Latin names where they hold academic, ceremonial or historical relevance.--MirkoS18 (talk) 11:05, 16 November 2024 (UTC)

Is there any reason why it cannot be included as an unlabeled native name considering its widespread misuse? Queen Douglas DC-3 (talk) 11:13, 16 November 2024 (UTC)

In response to the message on my talk page, I've kept them in 200 instances where I could find at least one reference which I still don't believe satisfies common use and is still WP:UNDUE. It doesn't need to be removed outright, as a lot of universities in Italy appear to use it, and I'm advocating more for the removal of the parameter. Queen Douglas DC-3 (talk) 11:19, 16 November 2024 (UTC)

I think there is a reason why it can't be used in native name section. Latin is not an native language except maybe in case of Vatikan and MAYBE some Pontifical university. Yet, I can see how it may be transferred into "classical name" category which will more inclusively permit for regionally specific relevant names which may be in Latin, Ancient Greek, Sanskrit, Old Church Slavonic or some other classical language. I think their usage is primarily ceremonial and does not fit into native languages category. Yet, at the same time it seems to me Latin is particularly important among those considering the origin of the idea of modern day universities and the fact that Latin was Lingua franca of communication, science, and academia in Europe until well into the 18th century.--MirkoS18 (talk) 11:27, 16 November 2024 (UTC)

I did notice that you re-added a Latin name with references. However, an overwhelming majority of other Latin names were either unreferenced or completely false. This leads to a feedback loop where secondary sources cite false Latin names from Wikipedia which in turn cites itself. Despite the mass removals, I've kept around 200 Latin names for which I could find at least one Latin name outside of the seal itself. Queen Douglas DC-3 (talk) 11:27, 16 November 2024 (UTC)

The native name parameter is unlabeled so it won't really say it's a native name if it was used instead. It would also reduce misuse as less uncited Latin names would be added through VisualEditor. Queen Douglas DC-3 (talk) 11:33, 16 November 2024 (UTC)

Support: I like your proposal to use a classical name parameter instead. Re-naming the existing parameter would reduce misuse and this may be a good compromise. Queen Douglas DC-3 (talk) 11:35, 16 November 2024 (UTC)

There is also an existing langx template so it would be visually indistinguishable. Queen Douglas DC-3 (talk) 11:42, 16 November 2024 (UTC)

It’s certainly interesting how some smaller or newer institutions adopt Latin names, often as a way to enhance their credibility or academic prestige. In the example I referenced, a relatively new university—despite lacking significant prestige or a long history—still uses a Latin name. This highlights the tendency, particularly in Europe, for institutions to adopt such names in an effort to appear more established, even if they don't have a strong academic reputation. While this can be viewed as somewhat pretentious or out of place in certain cases, it remains a widespread practice. I’d like to clarify that I’m not making any specific proposals here, but rather offering a suggestion for consideration. If you wish to propose it yourself, feel free to do so. I’m personally fine with the current approach, and I certainly don’t support removing Latin names. I do, however, advocate for ensuring they are properly referenced, and I would be open to exploring the option of using "classical name" as an alternative category.--MirkoS18 (talk) 11:45, 16 November 2024 (UTC)

Of course, if we consider this alternative idea, we would need to verify whether names in other classical languages exist. It might seem like a bit of a leap to move from proposing the removal of all Latin names to including names in other classical languages, especially since these may be significantly less prominent than Latin. However, it could be a possibility worth considering?--MirkoS18 (talk) 11:49, 16 November 2024 (UTC)

Considering how many universities existed when Latin names were used in scholarly texts, I still feel that Latin names serve as academic boosterism and still support removing it altogether. There's also other arguments that I've mentioned above. Queen Douglas DC-3 (talk) 11:53, 16 November 2024 (UTC)

Renaming the existing parameter to classical name may seem obsolete due to a lack of university names in other languages but would make it easier for inexperienced editors to know that it's not for simple translations. Queen Douglas DC-3 (talk) 11:58, 16 November 2024 (UTC)

It certainly can play into academic boosterism and it may be a good argument for your proposal. Yet, I don't think it can be reduced to this alone, especially not in many cases. Now, I don't thin the category of Ancient university you are mentioning is useful one as it is exclusively Anglo-Saxon world related. Please consider List of oldest universities in continuous operation, List of medieval universities and at least List of early modern universities in Europe and for continental institutions count probably until mid-18th century.--MirkoS18 (talk) 12:00, 16 November 2024 (UTC)

I'm finding your argument for keeping Latin names in the infobox more convincing but what can be done about the constant addition of unused Latin names like Universitas Cittagong and future unreferenced additions creating citation feedback loops? Queen Douglas DC-3 (talk) 12:08, 16 November 2024 (UTC)

For example, my university has had a false Latin name since 2016. Queen Douglas DC-3 (talk) 12:14, 16 November 2024 (UTC)

It's also being cited elsewhere as a result. Queen Douglas DC-3 (talk) 12:14, 16 November 2024 (UTC)

In short, I don't know the answer on what we can do. However, I don't think removing a parameter that is useful in other contexts is the right approach. If we were to delete problematic articles entirely, we'd be preventing disruptive editing, which I believe no one would support. It seems like a more extreme version of the current proposal. That said, I can see how this category could actually be useful for certain cases beyond Europe as well, such as colonial universities (e.g., This group, this one or maybe even here). I think the key is to reinforce your original suggestion: requesting proper and reliable citations. Beyond that, I'm not sure there's much more we can do.--MirkoS18 (talk) 12:21, 16 November 2024 (UTC)

I don't think adding citations is enough. The citations I've added to the University of Sydney, Melbourne and Adelaide are some of the most reliable available and still don't show that they're still used. Many of the most reliable sources available are just Latin-translated anniversary greetings. We can request proper and reliable citations but there actually needs to be proper and reliable citations. The most reliable citations therefore would actually be whether universities still use the Latin name or whether it was a significant aspect of its history (example). Taking into factor that 27,000 articles use this template, the proportion of universities in the lists provided that use Latin names in any remote context is not high enough to counter the negatives posed by the feature. Queen Douglas DC-3 (talk) 12:34, 16 November 2024 (UTC)

There's adding citations for the sake of adding citations, and then there's actually understanding the context of the citations. Queen Douglas DC-3 (talk) 12:35, 16 November 2024 (UTC)

Yes, but this principle could be applied to any information in the article. I believe that as long as we have reliable references, we should not request additional proof or confirmation. If we start applying this logic universally, we risk ending up in a situation where original research is required, which would in turn necessitate peer review. I don't think Wikipedia operates in that way. We should trust reliable sources when they are well-supported and there's no clear and specific reason to doubt their accuracy in some case.--MirkoS18 (talk) 12:48, 16 November 2024 (UTC)

I'm satisfied with your responses. Since I've already removed most of the more dubious Latin names, including possible false positives that I'll have to double-check, this is probably not as widespread of an issue anymore. I'll close my RfC. Queen Douglas DC-3 (talk) 13:36, 16 November 2024 (UTC)

@Queen Douglas DC-3: I don't understand why you've restored so many of your good edits that removed unsourced Latin names from infoboxes of U.S. colleges and universities e.g., [1]. Just having the name in the seal is not sufficient and your original removals along those lines was good practice. ElKevbo (talk) 15:47, 16 November 2024 (UTC)

I'm reverting some of my edits because current Latin names used ceremonially on seals or parchments (including at U.S.-based universities) are more credible than ones that are no longer used (i.e. the ones I've kept). I've also added citation needed templates for ones where there appear to be reliable sources available online that I've missed. Queen Douglas DC-3 (talk) 15:58, 16 November 2024 (UTC)

I wasn't able to give a proper reply earlier because I was still editing. I believe that I'm not going to gain the necessary consensus needed to remove the parameter because nobody else has actually checked all of the available references (and their context) so it was better to use the same criteria when assessing the 500 Latin names: whether there are one or more technically-usable references available, even if they don't prove that they are (or ever were) actively used. If I had used my preferred method, there would be almost no Latin names left. This means that I would be biased for removing actively-used Latin names from articles about American universities. For example, the only source I could find for Universitas Bristolliensis is an anniversary letter from 1913. Since most of the letters in the book were written in Latin, this could just mean that they translated their own name just for this one instance. This is not more reliable nor credible than using actively-used seals as a reference. Actually checking the quality of hundreds of references doesn't mean that you can gain consensus to make change, especially after considering the small number of participants here. One is an alumni of the small number of elite British universities with actively-used Latin post-nominals, and the other added back a Latin name from a university literally established in 2020 with three dubious sources that only cite the seal itself. I have honestly just given up and don't want to be involved in this drawn-out discussion. Queen Douglas DC-3 (talk) 17:24, 16 November 2024 (UTC)

That's too bad because you were doing good work. If the only source for this information is a seal or an obscure document then this information doesn't merit inclusion in the infobox. ElKevbo (talk) 17:27, 16 November 2024 (UTC)

Yeah, but that would require me to remove almost all of the Latin names. Queen Douglas DC-3 (talk) 17:30, 16 November 2024 (UTC)

I think we should consider if the source is reliable or not reliable. Obscure documents may be reliable (ask historians spending time in archives). They may include local media sources, government documents etc. Often they are reliable even if not used by many readers. Additionally, there will be clear bias to mark non-English language sources as "obscure" so I don't think that we can have any operational definition of obscure source that should not be considered. The 2020 university you are mentioning is actually interesting case in point since it shows usage even in those cases. Second and the third source explicitly state the following sentence: "Službeni naziv Sveučilišta glasi: Sveučilište u Slavonskom Brodu na hrvatskom jeziku i Universitas studiorum Marsoniensis na latinskom jeziku. Sveučilište u Slavonskom Brodu se koristi i nazivom na engleskom jeziku: University of Slavonski Brod." which translates into English as: "The official name of the university is "Sveučilište u Slavonskom Brodu" in Croatian and "Universitas studiorum Marsoniensis" in Latin. The university also uses the English name "University of Slavonski Brod.". In fact, even the Statute of the University (first link) itself explicitly defines its Latin name in Article 5. If this is the case with an institution established in 2020 I guess the practice is actually quite common.--MirkoS18 (talk) 19:11, 16 November 2024 (UTC)

I am not challenging the reliability of any particular source. I am challenging whether the inclusion of a fact in an old and obscure document means that we should include it in an article. We are not obligated to include all information found in reliable sources in our articles. ElKevbo (talk) 19:20, 16 November 2024 (UTC)

I see your point, but I do not imply anywhere that we are obliged to do it. Yet I definitely believe that we should have opportunity to do so if appropriate, and the removal of parameter may in fact lean towards obligation not to include it. If what you call "old and obscure document" is reliable and contains relevant information for some article, I do not see why editors should be prevented from skilfully identifying and using it. Therefore, issue of reliability is quite central, while obscurity seems like additional step that is proposed on reliable sources. Is there any policy related to obscure reliable sources?--MirkoS18 (talk) 19:36, 16 November 2024 (UTC)

Okay, let's take the University of London for example. It's old and well-known. The Latin names, which I added references to two months ago, are Universitas Londinensis/Londiniensis with links to references. As you can see, all of the references are compilations of happy anniversary letters to other universities. This is almost universally the case for all university articles on Wikipedia and is literally the definition of adding something for the sake of adding it. What significance does this contribute to the article for it to be prominently displayed in the lead? It is academic boosterism that contributes absolutely nothing despite the page having been accessed 367,981 over the past year. My newest point is that a lot of those older universities in Europe, like Sapienza, already have the Latin names on their seals making the separate parameter redundant. Queen Douglas DC-3 (talk) 21:19, 16 November 2024 (UTC)

I apologize for the misunderstanding - I think we've clearly moved on from the suggestion to remove the parameter from the infobox and are not discussing when it should be used.

As to your question "Is there any policy related to obscure reliable sources?" I recommend reviewing WP:DUE and wP:NOT. It's also worth noting that the documentation for the infobox describes this parameter with this text: "University name in Latin, if commonly referenced. This should not simply be a translation of the English name but should have a reliable independent reference showing use (possibly in abbreviated form) as the Latin name. Use only seen in self-published, primary sources, such as the institution's seal or degrees, is likely to be WP:UNDUE in the infobox. The name should be given in the Nominative." ElKevbo (talk) 21:21, 16 November 2024 (UTC)

Is there a way to open a RfC for an existing conversation? I tried to earlier but I'm worried about messing it up since it was my first time. Queen Douglas DC-3 (talk) 21:26, 16 November 2024 (UTC)

I've re-added the RfC. Feel free to fix it if needed. Queen Douglas DC-3 (talk) 21:58, 16 November 2024 (UTC)

In regards to the statute for University of Slavonski Brod, why is a separate parameter necessary if the Latin name is already visible on the seal in the infobox? Queen Douglas DC-3 (talk) 21:31, 16 November 2024 (UTC)

For example, the university's logo includes the founding year in Roman numerals (MMXX), yet 2020 is still written in infobox. From a continental European perspective the infobox includes much more random parts than Latin name such as "colors," "sporting affiliations," "mascot," or even "accreditation," especially considering that we don’t follow that unusual American accreditation system. That said, all these elements can be useful in other contexts, so I don’t believe they should be removed just because they aren’t universally applicable. Suggesting the removal of possibility of usage of Latin names in infobox simply because they aren’t commonly used in the U.S. or Australia seems parochial or ethnocentric. If Latin names aren’t used in some places, the parameter can simply be left out for those regions. Regarding the Latin name for this new university, it’s actually one of the institution's official names alongside Croatian and English one, even though it was only established in 2020. When an institution founded as recently as 2020 includes a Latin name in its official statute, it seems to carry more weight than, for instance, "colors." I appreciate that ElKevbo isn’t proposing removing the parameter entirely, just advocating for more careful use. If that’s the case, then we’re probably on the same page.--MirkoS18 (talk) 22:15, 16 November 2024 (UTC)

I just used European examples like University of London and University of Slavonski Brod as you've mentioned. I have manually checked over 500 Latin names (removing over half of them) and there won't be enough left in Europe if reliable and contextually-relevant sources were used. The existence of a Latin name alone doesn't justify its prominence in the lead. As I've said before, even the most reliable references are merely anniversary letters sent between European universities. In just one example, the only source I could find for Universitas Bristolliensis is a happy anniversary letter from 1913. Since most of the letters in the book were written in Latin, this could just mean that they translated their own name just for this one instance. References should not only prove the existence of a Latin name but whether it is or was actually used. Additionally, most of those European universities already have Latin names on their seals making the parameter redundant. I really don't think the benefits of having a designated Latin name parameter outweighs the high likelihood that newer editors will be confused and provide direct translations using VisualEditor. Even after removing hundreds of made-up Latin names, the hundreds that remain that I've added dubious-at-best citations to still don't prove that they are commonly or actively used. The university establishment date is essential information, the Latin name is not. As the only person who has skimmed through every reference on every Latin name on Wikipedia, I can say without a doubt that almost all of the references don't show common use. Additionally, all of them were completely uncited before I checked them so I know how poor the quality of references available are for practically all remaining Latin names. Queen Douglas DC-3 (talk) 22:51, 16 November 2024 (UTC)

For the University of Slavonski Brod, why can't the Latin name be used in the native names parameter if it is one of the official names alongside the Croatian and English names? Additionally, the university is literally four years old. What does it even use the Latin name for? Its obscure trivia in the lead, especially since the Latin name is already in the seal, and doesn't need to be placed so prominently in the lead. Queen Douglas DC-3 (talk) 23:08, 16 November 2024 (UTC)

The difference between the parameters is that the other parameters mentioned aren't actively misused. I had removed hundreds of made-up Latin names like Universitas Cittagong. The worst part is that the hundreds that remain are dubious at best. Again, I've checked all of them. Queen Douglas DC-3 (talk) 23:13, 16 November 2024 (UTC)

I also can't tell the difference between an American university with an official Latin name and an European university with an official Latin name. There doesn't appear to be any real differentiating factor in most cases. Queen Douglas DC-3 (talk) 23:42, 16 November 2024 (UTC)

To summarize where we are in this discussion: are you now once again suggesting removing the parameter entirely? My position remains that better referencing is the way forward if there are for some reason concerns about unreferenced Latin names, even if I personally see it as some quite common and honestly uncontroversial info. But I of course can’t determine what someone might find contentious, so I support referencing those names as you seem to have valid concerns. I'm in principle open to ensuring that all the other parameters are specifically referenced if needed, and I believe editors have the right to challenge any unreferenced material if they wish. If the proposal is indeed to remove the parameter altogether, I’d like to formally note my opposition with one Against "vote". Apologies to any new contributors who may have to sift through this lengthy discussion.--MirkoS18 (talk) 00:10, 17 November 2024 (UTC)

Yes, I'm suggesting to remove the parameter entirely. The argument that better referencing is the way forward actually needs better references to exist, and I'm the only one here who has manually checked the references available for all removed and existing Latin names and provided reasons for why they don't meet Wikipedia's policies on reliability.

Additionally, the official documentation for the Latin name parameter states:

"University name in Latin, if commonly referenced. This should not simply be a translation of the English name but should have a reliable independent reference showing use (possibly in abbreviated form) as the Latin name. Use only seen in self-published, primary sources, such as the institution's seal or degrees, is likely to be WP:UNDUE in the infobox. The name should be given in the Nominative."

Almost all of the remaining Latin names don't fit the criteria. You're advocating for Latin names to be used in contrary to how the documentation states. The fact that University of Slavonski Brod has an official Latin name in its statutes plays no relevance here. Queen Douglas DC-3 (talk) 00:46, 17 November 2024 (UTC)

I honestly don’t see how I’m pushing for using Latin names in a way that goes against the documentation—if anything, I feel like I’m actually following it as intended! But hey, I’m totally open to letting others weigh in on it. It seems like you’re setting a high bar that borders on original research, which feels a bit beyond what’s necessary (or even permitted) here. And honestly, comparing Latin names to something like fringe theories (like flat Earth in WP:UNDUE) doesn’t quite resonate with me, but I get that we all have different perspectives. At some point, I think we’ll need to let others weigh in on this proposal (if we’re even clear on what the proposal is at the moment). Is it A) better referencing, B) renaming in classical language, C) using a native name category for a “dead” language, or D) deleting it? Right now, it sounds like we’re back at D, but I thought we had a pretty solid chance at finding common ground with option A.--MirkoS18 (talk) 01:58, 17 November 2024 (UTC)

I'm currently checking and deleting the remaining Latin names that don't meet the documentation to see how widespread its valid use case is. I've already made my views clear in that there is a critical lack of suitable references, regardless to whether Latin names are used or not. It would be appreciated if you could instead look for references to back your claims instead of presuming there are many when I'm the one who's spent days checking and re-checking hundreds of them. Queen Douglas DC-3 (talk) 02:10, 17 November 2024 (UTC)

I am quite disappointed by this blatant POV pushing behaviour and I think it will be interesting to see how community may react to this. I appreciate your original research on this topic, yet I do not accept some particular new standards beyond reasonable usage of reliable secondary sources. I may consider reporting any disruptive editing.--MirkoS18 (talk) 02:14, 17 November 2024 (UTC)

You're the one pushing original research, not me. You haven't shown me a single reference so far. That's the literal definition of original research. What disruptive editing are you even talking about? You're now casting aspersions, which is against Wikipedia's policies. Queen Douglas DC-3 (talk) 02:17, 17 November 2024 (UTC)

Additionally, my edits are following the literal documentation for the Latin name parameter. That's not a "new standard". Queen Douglas DC-3 (talk) 02:18, 17 November 2024 (UTC)

Okay, after checking and removing some more Latin names, I can say with some confidence that there are around 200 Latin names that have been referenced more than once on two or more seemingly-reliable, likely-independent sources. While this doesn't mean that they are commonly or actively used, it can give an idea as to how many Latin names there are that meet the criteria in the documentation.

I still need to double-check to see if I have removed any that met the criteria and whether the sources are actually reliable and independent. I'll try to check the latter when I directly add them as references as I've already done on the obvious ones (Oxford, Harvard, Cambridge, etc.). Also, this doesn't take into account references to Latin names that were too difficult to find but they should've been referenced.

Additionally, I still don't think the Latin name belongs on University of Slavonski Brod, especially since it was established only four years ago and the references appear to be announcements, but I'm not going to revert it back since it technically meets the criteria above. Queen Douglas DC-3 (talk) 03:47, 17 November 2024 (UTC)

So in total out of the over 500 uncited Latin names, 200 that were either false or unverifiable and around 100 were either primary or only mentioned on seals and parchments. This is too high an error rate to keep the parameter and I've noticed other sources use some of the false Latin names from Wikipedia. Queen Douglas DC-3 (talk) 03:53, 17 November 2024 (UTC)

I would suggest that of you want an RfC, it should be a new section referring back to this section, rather than added to this section, which is going to be very hard for anyone to disentangle and which isn't organised as an RfC.

Doing a bit more poking, there is also evidence that Exon is used in postnominals for Exeter, and there is a claim in its article that Ebor is used for York, but I haven't been asked to track this down in Google Books. There may be others. More generally, there's plenty of evidence for current usage of Latin names for many European universities, e.g., Universitas Carolina Pragensis, or this book from University of Chicago Press using Latin names for a large number of medieval universities from the Holy Roman Empire, while Universitas magistrorum et scholarium Parisiensis is widely used in histories (e.g.,). I think it is clear that there are a number of universities for which this parameter is correctly used currently.

Having said that, I think the idea of renaming the parameter to 'classical name' is a good one. This would probably mean having to enclosed the name inside a 'lang' template as it wouldn't automatically be Latin, but that wouldn't be terrible. It would give a fresh start to it's use (which as it is likely to only be used on medieval universities and a small number of modern universities is probably acceptable) and might be less likely to cause confusion. Robminchin (talk) 05:11, 17 November 2024 (UTC)

I'm okay with this. I've put a lot of work into removing Latin names that don't meet the documentation and don't want them to be eventually re-added over time without references. Of course, the classical name will always be Latin but it would be clearer for newer editors when filling out the infobox on VisualEditor. I think we can establish a consensus if any of the others are okay with this proposal. Queen Douglas DC-3 (talk) 05:21, 17 November 2024 (UTC)

It would also prevent universities (like where I'll be studying soon) from having false Latin names in the infobox for years without any verification. Queen Douglas DC-3 (talk) 05:28, 17 November 2024 (UTC)

I have no direct or relevant connection with the University of Slavonski Brod, other than being from the region. In fact, I’m not entirely sure why it was established, and I suspect it may have had a negative impact on the University of Osijek (where Latin names, like elsewhere, were also removed). Nevertheless, the case of Slavonski Brod highlights how Latin names continue to have a place in academia. Since the Latin name is clearly referenced, this should suffice to validate its use. Furthermore, it’s possible that new universities established in the next 10 or 20 years may also adopt Latin names and should be used in that case. As I previously mentioned, I’m not opposed to introducing a “Classical Name” parameter—this could indeed be an improvement. Expanding this to include other classical languages could also be considered though I’m uncertain if other classical names are used at all. However, I have some practical concerns about transitioning to this parameter while still retaining the Latin names currently in use. Some contributors have already introduced these names, and if they are supported by reliable sources, their free work shouldn’t be just dismissed or ignored, effectively requiring everyone to start from scratch. Given that I was able to find explicit, independent sources for Slavonski Brod, I suspect that the number of universities using Latin names may actually be much higher than the 200 figure currently cited. This number, circulated as authoritative, appears based on a survey with an unclear design. Given the approach taken to the Slavonski Brod case, I have concerns about the analysis, which may be applying overly strict standards for inclusion. But if we are going towards some idea acceptable to everyone that certainly is improvement and more constructive approach.--MirkoS18 (talk) 12:14, 17 November 2024 (UTC)

Just to clarify, I never thought you had any connection to the two universities mentioned and it didn't influence why I removed the Latin name for the University of Osijek. The main reasons why I removed the Latin name from the latter is because:

1. It is not referenced, even if it is used.

2. I wasn't able to find two or more reliable and independent references confirming its use.

If you can add citations to them as you did with Slavonski Brod, it would comply with the documentation for the parameter. As it was though, there were two very prominent and noticeable citation needed templates in the lead for over three months. Having a citation needed template there forever despite the lack of available sources does more harm than good to the quality of the article. References should be included when a Latin name is added, not afterwards.

The other issue is that because Slavonski Brod is a new university, I fail to see why American universities can't reference the Latin names on their seals because their branding would also be mentioned in the news if they were established four years ago and therefore would have independent references. The lack of universality, and double-standards, is just one of many flaws with this parameter.

There's also still the happy anniversary issue where a significant portion of Latin names (primarily in English-speaking countries) are no longer used or don't have more than one reference. This would mean that it isn't commonly referenced as needed according to the parameter documentation and may have been single-use direct translations. That's mainly why, for example, I removed the Latin name from University of the Punjab and not the University of London despite using an identical reference.

Lastly, re-naming it to classical languages would be more to reduce and divert further misuse than to imply there are any university names in other classical languages. Queen Douglas DC-3 (talk) 14:48, 17 November 2024 (UTC)

References