Talk:The Firm (hip-hop group)

Assessment comment

I agree with the C Class rating. I copyedited the article a bit - these are some issues left that could improve it:

• formation place and date contained in the lead section cannot be found in the main article, but should be
• it should be mentioned whether the group performed and toured together (disregarding the December 2006 reunification)
• all the people listed under members and former members are in fact former members now, I suggest it would be clearer to include Cormega as member but with appropriate time specification following his name like "(1996-1997)"
• when is "soon after" when refered to the breakup? if the source clarifies then it should be added, if not, it should be reworded to refer to a year or event or something like that
• IllNa-Na.net is a fan website, which I'm not sure is a reliable source - the time of her first recording contract can surely be sourced differently, one should probably check the Foxy Brown article for a source or Allmusic
• it is not clear how the associated acts come about as they are not included in the article except for Trackmasters and no other rationale is given (also, some are not acts but producers)
• the ego trip note should name an author instead
• explanation for certification rewording: certification does not indicate album sales but shipments, without exact numbers a mention of the underwhelming sales figure is sufficient and clear enough - the certification should be mentioned but not be used to imply sales where actually better than argued by other sources (many of the shipped copies probably went unsold)

—Preceding unsigned comment added by Hekerui (talk • contribs)

Move?

The following discussion is an archived discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the move request was: page moved a while ago, and current name seems acceptable to editors. I hope this closure is acceptable to all parties here; if not, please let me know. - GTBacchus^(talk) 22:44, 9 August 2010 (UTC)

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The Firm (American band) → The Firm (group) —

• unnecessary redirect "The Firm (group)"; the article subject is a group, not a band Dan56 (talk) 19:07, 26 July 2010 (UTC)
• Comment needs discussion. Group? Band? How is someone supposed to know which article to choose from that disambiguation? Whatever happens with this article also impacts on The Firm (British band) and The Firm (Star Trekkin') and the three should be considered together. Skinsmoke (talk) 05:48, 27 July 2010 (UTC)
• Comment "The Firm" without disambiguater is "the firm" is whatever firm or similar is being discussed at the time. Anthony Appleyard (talk) 06:08, 27 July 2010 (UTC)
• Support. The American hip hop act is the more popular of the artists listed - Agree with move to The Firm (group). The British act should be moved to The Firm (British rock band), to distinguish itself from the 'Star Trekkin' group which is also British. PaulHammond2 (talk) 10:27, 27 July 2010 (UTC)
• Oppose The distinction between The Firm (band) and The Firm (group) is meaningless: to most people the two terms are interchangeable. The American outfit may be the most popular of the artists listed in the North Amercan market, but certainly not in Europe. Wikipedia serves the whole of the English speaking (or singing) world, not just the United States. An assertion that the American rappers are more popular than the British band is, in any case, questionable, given that the British band included Paul Rodgers and Jimmy Page. In terms of chart success The Firm (Star Trekkin') is undoubtedly the most successful of the artists, with a #1 British single, #3 in Australia, and Top Ten positions across Europe. On balance, it is probably better to conclude that there is no primary topic out of the three and leave things just as they are. Skinsmoke (talk) 03:53, 28 July 2010 (UTC)
• Support Well, if its meaningless, then lets leave it as (group). Most dictionaries have "band" defined as a musical group that employ instruments. Since this hip hop group doesnt play instruments but are rappers, then it seems suitable to have it as (group). Dan56 (talk) 04:03, 28 July 2010 (UTC)
• Comment I have left a note at the Talk page of the admin who moved the article yesterday, asking for explanation of why it was moved without any comment here or closing of this discussion. I have no opinion on whether the article should be moved, but I don't like the idea of someone else closing this discussion simply because an admin decided to ignore it (or did not realize it was occurring). Propaniac (talk) 18:27, 28 July 2010 (UTC)

I do apologise. I did see the discussion, but must have misread the dates. It was tagged as a speedy move, which it wasn't really. For the sake of convenience, I'll leave it where it is, and then move it if necessary as a result of the discussion, save moving it twice. GedUK  18:33, 28 July 2010 (UTC)

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

Requested move

The following discussion is an archived discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the move request was: pages moved per discussion below. We're disambiguating by genre only: The Firm (hip hop group), The Firm (rock band) and The Firm (novelty band), and we're using "band" instead of "group" in cases where the members are playing instruments. Hopefully these titles will prove to be stable. - GTBacchus^(talk) 23:18, 1 September 2010 (UTC)

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The Firm (group) → The Firm (American hip hop group) — See below. Propaniac (talk) 14:55, 23 August 2010 (UTC)

I was the one who originally moved it from The Firm (group) to The Firm (American hip hop group). It is somewhat disrespectful that this discussion about undoing this bit of housekeeping has been kept behind my back. I shall confess now that I hadn't looked at the talk page to find this discussion here before trying to clean it up again.

The whole point of titles of the "X (Y)" form is to answer the question "Which X?" with "The Y". Or occasionally, "The one that's to do with Y". But "The group" doesn't answer the question "Which The Firm?" because there are other groups with the same name. For what it's worth, I've just looked at Wikipedia:Article titles#Precision and disambiguation, which states "Be precise but only as precise as is needed." I take this as meaning that disambiguating titles should be just enough to uniquely identify the subject of the article. In this case, "American group" is that just enough. Any disambiguating titles that aren't enough should be redirects to the main disambiguation page, tagged with {{R from incomplete disambiguation}}. OK, so there might be a case for making such a title redirect to the most notable of the various Ys called X, but I agree with Skinsmoke that this isn't the case here. And in any case, isn't right to make the incomplete disambiguation the actual title of the article. -- Smjg (talk) 01:25, 23 August 2010 (UTC)

The Firm (this article's subject) is the only group (on WP), there is a band, The Firm (band), but this one is a group. Please request a move in the future. Dan56 (talk) 03:48, 23 August 2010 (UTC)

Since you refuse to explain how a band isn't a group, your comment is useless. -- Smjg (talk) 11:19, 23 August 2010 (UTC)

A band typically signifies musicians/instrumentalists, sort of like the case with The Roots (band), while a group is more general and is often used for hip hop acts, especially for those comprised mostly or entirely of MCs, like A Tribe Called Quest or G-Unit. There is even a category label Category:Hip hop groups rather than "bands". But my previous comment was useful in one way; changes that go against a consensus seem controversial and should be discussed about. Like it suggests at WP:Consensus, the consensus can change and the same issue can be opened up again. Dan56 (talk) 12:11, 23 August 2010 (UTC)

You've just stated exactly why the reversion is inappropriate: "a group is more general". Otherwise, what you've said is like saying a square isn't a geometric shape because it's a quadrilateral. The fact is that "group" absolutely doesn't distinguish this from the others, and thus is useless as a "disambiguating" title. Besides, from what I can make out of the move discussion, there's just no consensus. Rather, it was closed through somebody moving the page independently of the discussion. -- Smjg (talk) 15:02, 23 August 2010 (UTC)

• I have listed this discussion at Wikipedia:Requested moves. Propaniac (talk) 14:55, 23 August 2010 (UTC)
• I agree that the distinction between "group" and "band" is not an especially clear one and we can do better. I would support The Firm (American hip hop group) or The Firm (hip hop group). Also note that the other article was moved from The Firm (band) to The Firm (British rock band) in February. Propaniac (talk) 15:00, 23 August 2010 (UTC)

According to WP:DAB, "If there are several possible choices for disambiguating with a class or context, use the same disambiguating phrase already commonly used for other topics within the same class and context, if any". I'd agree to move the article as long as the other (The Firm (band)) was too. But I am not sure whether "genre" or "nationality" is prefered (the hatnote at the top of this article may suggest one solution). I posted the question at the talk page for WP:Naming conventions (people). Dan56 (talk) 19:22, 23 August 2010 (UTC)

That page is a guideline, rather than a policy, and the sentence you've quoted assumes that the "same disambiguating phrase already commonly used for other topics within the same class and context" is actually adequate. And besides, what exactly are you proposing that The Firm (band), currently actually at The Firm (British band), be changed to? -- Smjg (talk) 21:48, 23 August 2010 (UTC)

Following that guideline, this one be changed to The Firm (hip hop group) and the other to "The Firm (rock band)", but like I said, I am not sure whether to go by genre or nationality. Dan56 (talk) 06:08, 24 August 2010 (UTC)

Good question. After all, The Firm (Star Trekkin') is also British. Still, let's see if a consensus develops. -- Smjg (talk) 11:15, 24 August 2010 (UTC)

Yesterday I moved the Star Trekkin' group to The Firm (British novelty group), since "Star Trekkin'" didn't seem to fit any disambiguation standard I've seen. Propaniac (talk) 14:05, 24 August 2010 (UTC)

• Clarify - Since there are 3 articles at issue here, I'd like to clarify just what people are supporting for their names:
  1. (A)The Firm (hip hop group) or (B)The Firm (American hip hop group)
  2. (A)The Firm (British band) or (B)The Firm (British rock band) or (C)The Firm (rock band)
  3. (A)The Firm (novelty group) or (B)The Firm (British novelty group).
  • Is that a properly exhaustive list of what we're considering? -GTBacchus^(talk) 18:14, 26 August 2010 (UTC)

Since all the articles' topics are bands/groups that are distinct from eachother mainly by their genre (two are both British), I'd support the "genre"-only distinction for the article names: "The Firm (hip hop group)", "The Firm (rock band)", "The Firm (novelty group)". Dan56 (talk) 18:19, 26 August 2010 (UTC)

Sounds good to me. Propaniac (talk) 20:33, 26 August 2010 (UTC)

"A band typically signifies musicians/instrumentalists" - The Star Trekkin Firm uses real instruments and musicians, so "novelty group" makes no sense. Maybe "novelty band" by that definition used, but not a group. SteamboatBilly (talk) 02:51, 27 August 2010 (UTC)

This discussion is going round in circles. According to which definition of "group", in which dictionary, is a band not a group whereas some musical ensembles are groups?

FWIW, here are just a few definitions of "group" I've found:

• An assemblage of persons or objects gathered or located together; an aggregation [1]
• a small number of musicians or singers who perform together regularly [2]
• a number of people who play music together, especially pop music [3]

Yet others, to confuse matters further, use the word "band" in the definition. But in any case, according to all my sources, all claims that a band isn't a kind of group, let alone that "group" uniquely identifies this Firm, are delusional. -- Smjg (talk) 23:50, 29 August 2010 (UTC)

Allmusic refers to both hip hop The Firm and rock The Firm as "supergroup". I think the perception that "band" and "group" are distinct might be from the way musical acts are referred to by the sources used for the articles. For example, the way Allmusic's biographies for The Roots and Stetsasonic suggest a distinction with the difference being live musicians. Dan56 (talk) 02:31, 30 August 2010 (UTC)

I thought we were past this. Is anyone still advocating that the distinction between "group" and "band" is clear enough to be used for disambiguation without including the nationality and/or genre? Does anyone think there is a consensus for that sentiment? I certainly don't. Propaniac (talk) 13:37, 30 August 2010 (UTC)

No, I was just trying to explain why a distinction could be perceived. But I'm still in support of the genre-only name. Dan56 (talk) 13:41, 30 August 2010 (UTC)

• Clarify - So, do we prefer The Firm (novelty group), or The Firm (novelty band)? Or should we just leave that one alone and deal w/ the hip-hop group and the rock band? -GTBacchus^(talk) 13:36, 31 August 2010 (UTC)

As the person who originally chose the (novelty group) title, I have no objection whatsoever to moving it to (novelty band). Propaniac (talk) 13:46, 31 August 2010 (UTC)

My preference would be for The Firm (novelty band). SteamboatBilly (talk) 14:54, 31 August 2010 (UTC)

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

I don't know anything about wikipedia but this article comes off really negative. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.83.179.235 (talk) 18:12, 21 March 2011 (UTC)

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