Talk:Telegramgate

Scope

More emphasis should be placed on the protests themselves, as people are starting to call this a political revolution in their analysis (see Torres Gotay for an example). As a matter of fact, I think that if we shift the focus to the protests, more material can be added. There are other rationales behind the ongoing unrest, such as the mismanagement of government resources during and after the Maria crisis. Old School WWC Fan (talk) 03:18, 20 July 2019 (UTC)

”Summer Revolution” appears to be the term preferred by Torres Gotay. David Begnaud, who has been covering the entire episode from PR for CBS, has jumped on the bandwagon as well. Old School WWC Fan (talk) 00:08, 22 July 2019 (UTC)

Can we call it "Chatgate", like NBC, or something sunny like Puerto Rico?

Way less ugly in print, quicker to say, probably more popular than the current title. InedibleHulk (talk) 17:26, 23 July 2019 (UTC)

I've read articles from several news sources on this developing story, and I've yet to see anyone refer to it as "-gate." I assume this is a TV news thing; they have an older audience and love to stamp "-gate" at the end of any real or potential scandal. Just for fun, I went straight to NBCNews.com, and their web coverage of the story does not include "TelegramGate" or "ChatGate." I think when the dust settles, we'll need a less Nixon-ian name for this. Canute (talk) 19:23, 23 July 2019 (UTC)

I saw it in our existing reference section, the San Diego affiliate. But yeah, that's almost TV. I don't like "-gate", either, but the punchier one is a lesser evil. InedibleHulk (talk) 07:39, 24 July 2019 (UTC)

The writer of "Ricky Leaks" works for the Center of Investigative Journalism in Puerto Rico, leaked the 899-page online chats. You Tubes from Democracy Now with Carla Minet, the chat's publisher are here: On Twitter the main hashtag is TelegramGate.--The Eloquent Peasant (talk) 21:39, 23 July 2019 (UTC)

References

Yeah, way less ugly in print... But also foreign. I haven’t seen “Chatgate” used by a Puerto Rican media outlet, only “TelegramGate” and “RickyLeaks” for the leak and the “Revolución de verano” name that Torres Gotay uses for the protests themselves. Old School WWC Fan (talk) 23:41, 23 July 2019 (UTC)

If we're limited to the island, for some reason, put me down for Gotay's choice (without a reaction, the leak itself isn't a story). InedibleHulk (talk) 07:44, 24 July 2019 (UTC)

Well... The seasonal theme of ”Revolución de verano” -and/or variations of it- seems to be catching on as a non “-gate” name throughout Spanish outlets outside Puerto Rico as well. Yesterday EFE published a piece titled “Puerto Rico y el chat: revolución pacífica o primavera puertorriqueña” comparing it to the Arab Spring. The piece found its way to the Dominican Republic, Miami, Massachusetts, Philadelphia and California (twice). Locally, NotiCel, which is a competitor -and, on occasion, also a fierce critic- of Torres Gotay’s El Nuevo Día, republished it under the title “revolución pacífica del 'verano puertorriqueño'”. Other media outlets that are less antagonistic to ENDI/GFR media, like Telemundo Puerto Rico, reproduced it as well. Prior to this, exactly two days ago, Argentine magazine Revista Anfibia wrote about “the Revolution” and commented that “we should have always known that the Puerto Rican spring comes in summer”, another comparison to the Arab Spring, albeit one that is more subtle. Old School WWC Fan (talk) 08:07, 24 July 2019 (UTC)

I'll throw the gates under the bus and hop on this relatively bright and sizzling bandwagon, then. InedibleHulk (talk) 09:04, 24 July 2019 (UTC)

Summer is a nice time of year. Could we get more people's opinions on this? How would we do that? Can 11 or 12 or 13 days be long enough to be considered a revolution? Does Arab Spring then translate to Puerto Rican Summer? We need more ideas but this discussion is awesome. Thanks.--The Eloquent Peasant (talk) 15:03, 24 July 2019 (UTC)

WP:RM is one way. In space, a revolution takes about a year. Back on Earth, it just takes however long it takes to oust the old boss. I don't understand much Spanish, just like when it rhymes. Not rhyming in translation is hardly a dealbreaker, though; anything common and hotter than Anothergate for me, please. InedibleHulk (talk) 16:23, 24 July 2019 (UTC)

I will support the move if nobody opposes, Torres Gotay is a respected journalist. But, perhaps more importantly, that particular name was born from a man that was there reporting from the middle of the protests and has an idea of how things developed. Even people that don’t use the name “Summer Revolution” are referring to it as one; for example representative Manuel Natal just did so. Old School WWC Fan (talk) 18:45, 24 July 2019 (UTC)

Shouldn't we wait until the dust clears and get more opinions? You're supporting a move to what- to Revolución de Verano -> Summer Revolution? --The Eloquent Peasant (talk) 19:17, 24 July 2019 (UTC)

We should use the English translation, per WP:ENGLISH. Old School WWC Fan (talk) 22:30, 24 July 2019 (UTC)

Wait until the smoke clears. It's already been moved once from Telegramgate scandal. How many gates are there? Was it Pizzagate that broke the camel's back?--The Eloquent Peasant (talk) 22:46, 24 July 2019 (UTC)

Reuters is calling it "RickyLeaks" today. https://www.yahoo.com/news/puerto-rico-governor-rickyleaks-scandal-090445513.html --The Eloquent Peasant (talk) 23:21, 24 July 2019 (UTC)

Yes. Perhaps letting the dust settle may be the best path for the moment. I have been thinking that given all of the media coverage, we may be able to build a complete series with separate articles for the leak, protests and the trials of Keleher et al. and also, most likely, Rosselló himself and the other people involved in the chat. A single article is likely to grow unwieldily long. I can help with the translation of sources, but would also like a non-Puerto Rican Spanish speaker to review what ever I write for neutrality (since all of us here, consciously or not, are most likely biased in one way or another). Old School WWC Fan (talk) 02:26, 25 July 2019 (UTC)

Notes for today: 1- It’s currently unknown if Rosselló will resign tonight; PNP legislators said that he had agreed to do so between 5 and 6 p.m., but it’s already past 11 and nothing has been communicated from Fortaleza. 2- Commenting for Telemundo, former governor Alejandro García Padilla has called the protests a “pacific revolution” and argued that the only parallel would be Gandhi. 3- As hashtag RickyRenuncia has started being blocked by Twitter’s algorithm (which, apparently, confuses it with spambots), new ones are emerging, among them “#RevoluciónDeVerano”. Old School WWC Fan (talk) 03:09, 25 July 2019 (UTC)

Further notes for today: It's impeachment proceedings with this document. https://noticiasmicrojuris.files.wordpress.com/2019/07/pdf-informe-del-comite-especial-para-iniciar-el-proceso-de-residencia-del-gobernador-de-puerto-rico.pdf - Pacific or Caribbean or peaceful revolution? Did he use incorrect English? Because pacífico or Pacífico are different. One refers to peaceful the other to the Pacific.--The Eloquent Peasant (talk) 03:25, 25 July 2019 (UTC)

Lowercase “pacific”, used in the context of being peaceful. A FB Live stream is about to begin at Fortaleza’s profile. Old School WWC Fan (talk) 03:35, 25 July 2019 (UTC)

Rosselló resigns, but will continue in office until August 2, working on the transition. Old School WWC Fan (talk) 03:56, 25 July 2019 (UTC)

Splitting?

An editor has an article Draft:2019 Puerto Rico protests--The Eloquent Peasant (talk) 11:15, 26 July 2019 (UTC)

Seems sensible. We may even be able to use the names being discussed for it and use this one for the leak. Old School WWC Fan (talk) 04:42, 28 July 2019 (UTC)

Tremenda HP

To me it makes no sense at all to translate tremenda as tremendous here. Even daughter of a whore has no real value, except as a literal translation. Wouldn't it make sense to translate it more liberally as "an awful bitch", etc? LeverageSerious (talk) 16:03, 27 July 2019 (UTC)

I agree that the literal translation doesn't work. There are much better synonyms to use here that collocate better. BTW, I haven't seen the original chat wording but if someone translated this, it's an awful translation. Does the exact (translated) quote even need to be here at all?--The Eloquent Peasant (talk) 19:10, 27 July 2019 (UTC)

Yeah. In this context, “tremendo/a” is more about magnitude than descriptive. In other words, it’s like saying “big/huge son of a bitch”. Old School WWC Fan (talk) 04:43, 28 July 2019 (UTC)

Change page name

Firstly, the Telegram chat leak was pretty objectively the catalyst for these mass protests, not the sole reason; any news source or anyone who was there will tell you the common motive was against Rosselló's alleged corruption and inefficiency in general. Secondly, the article says Telegramgate is ongoing, which it technically isn't, since Rosselló already resigned after the chat leaked; protests are still occurring, however, this time with different demands—again, this is an objective fact, any news source on the island will tell you this. I believe the page should be moved to, for example, 2019 Puerto Rico mass protests. --Anonymoususername (talk) 19:22, 18 August 2019 (UTC)

Draft:2019 Puerto Rico protests is actually a separate page. This one is still in the long queue of articles that need to be reviewed. I think the editors' intent was to have both articles: Telegramgate and the 2019 Puerto Rico protests.--The Eloquent Peasant (talk) 02:31, 19 August 2019 (UTC)

I couldn't find any reliable sources that call this scandal Telegramgate. A such, it appears this article is due for a move to something like "Ricardo Rosello resignation". Chatgate also seems like a possibility as at least one major publication (Time) has called it that. I am opening this for discussion (article shouldn't be moved until the discussion is over and consensus reached) in hopes there are other editors interested in the name of this article, but if there is no discussion in the next few days, I intend to move it to a name that can be supported by RSs. Mercy11 (talk) 02:44, 25 August 2020 (UTC)

Evidence of mass protests

THERE SHOULD BE THOUSANDS OF AERIAL PICTURES OF SUCH AN EVENT....PLEASE PROVIDE EVIDENCE FROM AERIAL FOOTAGE....BECAUSE IN FACT....Thousands of people can gather....but it was not even one percent of the population....in other words it falls under the category of coup dtat....a sort of terrorist act....this story is just a numbers game and expresses opinions instead of facts....let’s stop the fake stories from destroying our countries.... — Preceding unsigned comment added by 67.249.105.208 (talk) 07:43, 23 August 2020 (UTC)

Improvement to the "Civilian" Section of the Page

The current section on the 2019 Puerto Rican protests gives a good summary of the diverse and creative forms of protest. However, it could be enhanced by incorporating a deeper analysis of the socio-political context and the unique dynamics that fueled these demonstrations. This would emphasize the role of civilian protests to the eventual resignation of the Governor, as well as making it seem more academic. For instance, emphasizing the role of digital activism and the global engagement it fostered, as well as the impact of shared experiences like Hurricane Maria in unifying the protestors, would provide a more comprehensive understanding. Additionally, discussing the movement's success beyond the resignation of Governor Rosselló, in terms of raising awareness and prompting a broader dialogue on governance and social justice in Puerto Rico, could offer a more nuanced perspective. These aspects, drawn from academic analysis and scholarly sources, would add depth to the understanding of the movement's significance in Puerto Rican history and its impact on societal change. The protests, catalyzed by the leak of derogatory messages from Governor Ricardo Rosselló, were underpinned by a deep-rooted desire for systemic change, intensified by the collective experience of Hurricane Maria's aftermath. This movement exemplifies the intricate interplay of resource mobilization, collective identity, and digital activism. Goodwin and Jasper's concepts provide a theoretical framework to understand the diverse participation and the effectiveness of decentralized, grassroots strategies. Especially when it comes to the political opportunity theory and the nature of the leak, which made "free-riders" not a problem for the continuing of protest. Incorporating this academic perspective will provide a more comprehensive understanding of the protests' complexity and impact.

These are some of the sources that I think would be relevant to include more data on this topic. They come from a paper I wrote for my Sociology Class:

American Anthropologist. “Understanding the Puerto Rican 2019 Summer Protests.” American Anthropologist. Blumberg, Rhoda Lois. “Civil Rights Movement.”PDF. Goodwin, Jeff, and James M. Jasper. The Social Movements Reader: Cases and Concepts. Wiley-Blackwell, 2014. Library of Congress. “Vieques Island Protests.” Phys.org. “Social Media and Politics: Uprising in Puerto Rico.” Population Research Institute, Pennsylvania State University. López 11 Phys.org. “Researchers Analyze the Use of Social Media During Puerto Rican Uprising”. Said, Atef. The Egyptian Revolution: Ethnographic Notes from Tahrir. PDF. Society and Space. “Summer 2019: The Great Racialized Puerto Rican Family Protesting in the Street Fearlessly.” Society and Space. The City University of New York (CUNY) Academic Works. CUNY Academic Work. Jglopez99 (talk) 04:05, 15 December 2023 (UTC)