Talk:RZA

Background Information needs changing

It says his AKAs are The Abbott under Tommy Boy Records. This is inaccurate. He was known as Prince Rakeem under Tommy Boy. The Abbott didn't come about until Wu-Tang Forever in 1997. The names should list as follows: The Scientist (under All in Together Now), Prince Rakeem (under Tommy Boy Records), Rzarector (under Gravediggaz), Bobby Steels (his Wu-Gambino persona after Raewkon's debut solo album), The Abbott (after Wu-Tang Clan's sophomore album), Bobby Digital, Ruler Zig-Zag-Zig Allah (his 5 percenter alias). Why is it so messed up? Wufan10304 (talk) 20:53, 2 July 2012 (UTC)

Untitled

The change I made that was reverted is accurate - he said it in an interview with Conan O'Brien.

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—Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.147.22.176 (talk) 16:45, 21 June 2008 (UTC)

his history in pittsburgh needs to be expanded upon

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Why does it say 2004 onward: Iron Flag ... when Iron Flag is dated 2001?

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• picture of kanye west

- why is there a photo of kanye west in an article about the rza? im deleting this because it makes no sense. --unsigned

It was probably in the Influences section because that section talks a lot about Kanye West being influenced by RZA's production style. --Josh1billion (talk) 20:04, 18 November 2007 (UTC)

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RZA claims to have invented Final Scratch. I think its worth noting in this article.

http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=TXsYXMqw4Zc

I think it should be too, but unfortunatetly that contribution was overlooked and ignored, for what I believe is "personal reason".(LonerXL (talk) 06:16, 31 August 2008 (UTC))

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• "pioneering the technique of speeding up or slowing down samples to fit the beat"

This should really say "popularizing", as it's totally inaccurate. This technique has been around for quite some time, just off the top of my head Eric B. and Rakim did it on "Eric B Never Scared" in 1988. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.174.115.125 (talk) 08:39, 2 January 2008 (UTC)

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Stop saying "highly-anticipated". That is blatant promoting, and worse, a weasel word/phrase. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 70.68.236.67 (talk) 04:35, 8 September 2008 (UTC)

Man with the Iron Fist

There were a few credible sources of information, so I don't agree with "Wikipedian Counsel" judgement of deleting the article that I had.... (LonerXL (talk) 00:57, 17 February 2009 (UTC))

I don't agree with them either, or their blatant lack of respect for his name that he created as an acronym and his first book, which they say is 'self-mythologizing'. I provided proof and they are still ignoring this and using their own personal ideas. I think we should be able to disagree with and appeal decisions made by these moderators since they are obviously ignoring proof and facts and using personal opinion over accuracy. They are clearly wrong. Wufan10304 (talk) 16:32, 23 April 2013 (UTC)

Honest Question: RZA jail term?

There is currently no citation (and no explanation) for RZA's jail term (while he was signed to Tommy Boy records).

I don't think I've seen anything written about the crime, the trial or the sentence. Even more strange: I don't think I've ever heard him rap about (...certainly nothing from RZA on the subject on 36 Chambers, the first thing out after the jail sentence, presumably?).

Given that most rappers aren't reticent about jail time (it sometimes leads the C.V.) it would be interesting to find something more on this. Could somebody add a link, at least to this discussion, if not revising the article, and adding a source?

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—Preceding unsigned comment added by 89.243.82.31 (talk) 13:10, 24 May 2009 (UTC)

He says at http://www.wutang-corp.com/news/article.php?id=356 that "I went to jail for—I don't like to talk about it—violence, gun violence." I'm pretty sure I've heard somewhere it was a weapons charge. That would make sense, anyway, given the time he served. Jamieli (talk) 14:31, 24 May 2009 (UTC)

New Creative Commons RZA images

The man was about as cool as could be. -->David Shankbone 03:39, 16 October 2009 (UTC)

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Achozen bias

"RZA has also formed a musical alliance with System of a Down's Shavo Odadjian, Kinetic 9 and up-and-comer, the Reverend William Burke from Chicago for the band, Achozen. Music from Achozen also appears on the major motion picture, Babylon A.D., on which Achozen song "Deuces" is heard blaring at the introduction of the film. The four principal members feel that their unique sound is not only spiritual in nature, but a new genre of "heavy hip hop," not "rap-metal." Achozen's first live show was at the Key Club in L.A in December 1, 2006. On Friday, November 13th, 2009 the second Achozen track "Salute/Sacrifice" was released exclusively as a free download on Odadjian's online art district and networking site, urSESSION from the upcoming Achozen debut album.[11] The Achozen album is anticipated to be released in mid-2010. [12]" does anyone else think that that's extremely biased? it's practically an ad.

RZA not Rza

Who did change it? His nickname should be written in capital letters 'cus it's a short from "Ruler ZigZagZig Allah"! — Preceding unsigned comment added by 194.117.241.30 (talk) 11:02, 7 October 2012 (UTC)

That's a backronym (like Witty Unpredictable Talent And Natural Game), his name is derived from 'razor' and pronounced 'rizza', so it should follow normal English rules of capitalization on Wikipedia. See Wikipedia:Manual_of_Style/Capital_letters#All_caps and Wikipedia:MUSTARD#Capitalization. Wetdogmeat (talk) 14:30, 7 October 2012 (UTC)

That's incorrect -- Wikipedia:Manual_of_Style/Capital_letters#All_caps specifically refers to trademarks, not to personal names. A subtle but important distinction. And, of course, even that isn't followed rigorously: cf. https://en.wiki.x.io/wiki/SAT -- since SAT is no longer an acronym but now merely a trademark, according to Wikipedia:Manual_of_Style/Capital_letters#All_caps, it should be rendered "Sat." But that's clearly ridiculous, as is your argument Waidawut (talk) — Preceding undated comment added 23:01, 4 March 2015 (UTC)

yes, but on most albums his nickname is written RZA not Rza 194.117.241.30 (talk) 23:40, 7 October 2012 (UTC)

Exactly. That's because it is RZA, or The RZA.

Yeah, but that's not relevant to Wikipedia. A compromise would be to add a note stating that his name is usually stylized as all-caps, but the article title should follow Wiki guidelines. I'll add a note. Wetdogmeat (talk) 01:25, 8 October 2012 (UTC)

Who cares what's "not relevant to Wikipedia." You guys sound like ignoramuses. RZA's name is RZA. It is not "derived from razor," that's a thing that Ghostface Killah and other 'homies' made up when they started out. It is short for Ruler Zig-Zag-Zig Allah, that's an acronym which those are capitalized, as in the Nation of Islam and the Five Percent Nation of Gods and Earths. RZA says this himself in his book which he authored. Go back to school, learn the knowledge, and read The Wu-Tang Manual. Check your sources before you start saying ignorant things like "that's not relevant to Wikipedia." You guys didn't make his name, you don't make the rules on how to spell it. RZA did and does. It is spelled with all caps in every instance. Stop being ignorant and change RZA's and GZA's names back. Next thing we know, you will start spelling Ghostface Killah as "Ghost Faced Killer." What serious ignorance of the Wu. Wufan10304 (talk) 22:47, 21 November 2012 (UTC)

Then again: You Can Never Teach The Wu-Tang..... Wufan10304 (talk) 03:57, 29 November 2012 (UTC)

The spelling hasn't been changed, just the style. Wikipedia has its own style guide. As far as I know, as I said, "Ruler Zig-Zag-Zig Allah" is a backronym, and the name is originally derived from 'razor'. Even if it were an actual initialism, it is not pronounced 'R-Z-A', it's pronounced 'rizza'. Wetdogmeat (talk) 04:41, 29 November 2012 (UTC)

The name is not "original derived from 'razor'" - where are you getting that? A random quote from Ghostface? No. In the official documentation of the group written by Robert Diggs himself, The Wu-Tang Manual CLEARLY states his name is a play on Robert and Ruler Zig-Zag-Zig Allah, his real name and his Nation of Islam name. Stop basing things off your own ideas and cite source material if you want to change his name all of a sudden, which no Internet site has ever attempted to do to RZA or GZA before. It is clearly NOT a 'backronym,' which is based on your own ideas. The format of the names needs to be changed back. We can request a look at this page by higher authority if you wish to not cite material and bully these pages more based off your own ideas. Wufan10304 (talk) 23:02, 21 April 2013 (UTC)

Proof that the name is R-Z-A the letters, an acronym not a backronym, and not Rza as a word. "When I did my first record, I was Prince Rakeem, and I had a song called 'Pza Pza Pumping.' That song was big in my neighborhood, but n***as used to call me 'Rza Rza Rakeem' because I wrote 'Razor' as a grafitti tag. N***as would say, 'Rza Rza Rakeem, you razor sharp still.' So the sound was already in my head, floating around, ready to take form. Then, my teacher in Islam had us removing the S's. He was saying, 'We don't need no S anymore. We're completing ourselves with a Z.' In Divine Mathematics, the Z stands for Zig-Zag-Zig, which means 'knowledge, wisdom, and understanding' - the last letter of the alphabet and the final stage of consciousness. So finally, I just thought of the name as letters, not a word. R Z A. It stands for Ruler-Knowledge-Wisdom-and-Understanding-Allah." - Robert Diggs, also known as RZA. (source: Wu-Tang Manual, pgs. 4-5) So, as you can see, when it was speculated that his name was derived from 'Razor' - it was his grafitti tag name, and the RZA name had not taken form yet, that was the beginning of the sound for RZA. Once he came up with the name in his Islam teachings, that's when he took on the name and he clearly states it is letters not a word, standing for Ruler-Zig-Zag-Zig-Allah, or in Islam terms, Ruler-Knowledge-Wisdom-and-Understanding-Allah. That is not how a backronym works. RZA's name, as stated by the man himself, is an acronym. Please correct this.— Preceding unsigned comment added by Wufan10304 (talk • contribs) 16:18, 23 April 2013 (UTC)

Recently i put a long list of his nicknames up. why where they deleted? they inclde Prince Dynamite and Prince Delight. I didn't make them up they were listed as his "a.k.a."s in the Wu-Tang Manual. I would like to put them back up as other names excluding the "Ruler Zig-Zag-Zig Allah" situation until that is resolved. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 98.246.80.178 (talk) 23:49, 22 December 2012 (UTC)

The AKA section of the infobox is for 'official' aliases (meaning names that he's actually been credited by), not nicknames. Wetdogmeat (talk) 02:29, 23 December 2012 (UTC)

They are indeed official aliases as many do other songs of his he refers to himself as such. while on Tommy Boy records he released the "Ooh I Love You Rakeem" EP as Prince Rakeem. And yet he is mentioned in the infobox as The Abbot, during his time with Tommy Boy Records when he released "Ooh I Love You Rakeem". He has never released any material as The Abbot, yet The Abbot is obviously a nickname on the list. In many songs and other text he has mentioned himself as such but never put out material with that name. Furthermore, the name Bobby Digital doesn't show up and he used that name to put out several pieces of work. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 98.246.80.178 (talk) 09:49, 26 December 2012 (UTC)

Looks like others thought the same and the change was made back to RZA. Sorry, but sometimes, Wikipedia guidelines do not fit and are just plain silly. Wufan10304 (talk) 05:34, 18 July 2015 (UTC)

Requested move 1

The following discussion is an archived discussion of the proposal. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the proposal was moved. --BDD (talk) 17:21, 1 May 2013 (UTC)

RZA → Rza – to be moved as per WP:ALLCAPS, etc. - RZA is not an initialism or acronym, it is pronounced 'rizza' and is derived from the word 'razor', the capitalisation is purely stylistic and against WP guidelines. Wetdogmeat (talk) 03:29, 21 April 2013 (UTC)

• Support per WP:ALLCAPS and MOS:TM. DoctorKubla (talk) 08:53, 21 April 2013 (UTC)
• Support even though a minority in sources. In ictu oculi (talk) 16:46, 21 April 2013 (UTC)

• Oppose per it is NOT officially derived from 'razor,' stop saying that or cite source of information where you are getting this from. Ghost made this up during 36 Chambers; the source for that is in The Wu-Tang Manual, written by the man himself. Therefore a requested move makes no sense since you are basing this on your own ideas, and not actual fact. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Wufan10304 (talk • contribs) 22:54, 21 April 2013 (UTC)

Again, that is a backronym. Much like the Witty Unpredictable Talent And Natural Game is a backronym, but we don't title the article WU-TANG. Google rza name razor and you'll find that this is common knowledge among 'Wu fans', just like the Wu's propensity for backronyms. You shouldn't rely on their self-mythologising books. Besides, even if it did originate as an acronym (which it didn't, no moreso than C.R.E.A.M. did) it still wouldn't necessitate all caps, because it has also "gained common usage as [an] ordinary, lowercase word". Note also that his Gravediggaz moniker is written 'Rzarector', not 'RZArector'. Wetdogmeat (talk) 23:44, 21 April 2013 (UTC)

Again, no, that is not a backronym, like the backronyms for the group. Also 'CREAM' is not a backronym either - Raekwon, the slang master of the Wu, made that acronym up and it became their hit song. When it stands for something from the start, it is an acronym, not a backronym and therefore must be treated as such. The proof for RZA as an acronym and not a word is as follows: "When I did my first record, I was Prince Rakeem, and I had a song called 'Pza Pza Pumping.' That song was big in my neighborhood, but n***as used to call me 'Rza Rza Rakeem' because I wrote 'Razor' as a grafitti tag. N***as would say, 'Rza Rza Rakeem, you razor sharp still.' So the sound was already in my head, floating around, ready to take form. Then, my teacher in Islam had us removing the S's. He was saying, 'We don't need no S anymore. We're completing ourselves with a Z.' In Divine Mathematics, the Z stands for Zig-Zag-Zig, which means 'knowledge, wisdom, and understanding' - the last letter of the alphabet and the final stage of consciousness. So finally, I just thought of the name as letters, not a word. R Z A. It stands for Ruler-Knowledge-Wisdom-and-Understanding-Allah." - Robert Diggs, also known as RZA. (source: Wu-Tang Manual, pgs. 4-5)

So, as you can see, when it was speculated that his name was derived from 'Razor' - it was his grafitti tag name, and the RZA name had not taken form yet, that was the beginning of the sound for RZA. Once he came up with the name in his Islam teachings, that's when he took on the name and he clearly states it is letters not a word, standing for Ruler-Zig-Zag-Zig-Allah, or in Islam terms, Ruler-Knowledge-Wisdom-and-Understanding-Allah. That is not how a backronym works. RZA's name, as stated by the man himself, is an acronym. Please correct this. In Gravediggaz, his name is referred to as RZArecta as well. In 36 Chambers, Ghostface Killah is noted as Ghost Faced Killer, but that is not the spelling of his name, therefore, you cannot base your assumptions from different spellings but must go with the official nature of such names, in this case, RZA, not Rza. And while I'm on this topic, the Wu-Tang Manual is not a 'self-mythologizing book' or whatever, but an autobiography on the group written by the man who formed the group. Everything in that book is true, and meant to be taken as such. This is accurate information straight from the man who crafted his own name. Now, please change it, as you are clearly wrong on this one. Wufan10304 (talk) 16:11, 23 April 2013 (UTC)

Are you actually kidding me? Firstly: "When I did my first record, I was Prince Rakeem, and I had a song called 'Pza Pza Pumping.' That song was big in my neighborhood, but n***as used to call me 'Rza Rza Rakeem' because I wrote 'Razor' as a grafitti tag. N***as would say, 'Rza Rza Rakeem, you razor sharp still." That's exactly what I've been saying. 'Rza' is derived from 'razor'. Thank you for conclusively proving my point with a direct quote from the subject. Secondly: That quote so obviously states that the name is a backronym that I can only conclude that you don't know what a backronym is. "C.R.E.A.M." is a backronym because it started out as a word ('cream', a slang term for 'money') and then each letter of the word was treated as the initial of another word, making the phrase "Cash Rules Everything Around Me". Raekwon did not simply come up with the phrase "Cash Rules Everything Around Me" and then realise afterwards that it coincidentally spelled "C.R.E.A.M." That would be an acronym, not a backronym. As Rza says, "finally, I just thought of the name as letters, not a word". That's what makes it a backronym. It started out as a word, not a phrase. An acronym starts out as a phrase and becomes a word; a backronym starts out as a word and becomes a phrase, just like 'Rza', 'Cream', 'Wu-Tang', etc, etc, etc. Wetdogmeat (talk) 17:22, 23 April 2013 (UTC)

Right but the subject is his moniker, rap name, etc. RZA states that when it was derived from his graph tag, it was not his pen name yet, or moniker. It was only "finally" used as his moniker when he applied the Nation of Islam and Divine Mathematics to it, then he started using it as his name. That's the whole point. Sure it started as a simple thought, as a word, but not for his name. That just put the thought in his head. Later, when he applied it as his name, it is used as letters, not a word. R-Z-A. He states this. You are taking the excerpt out of context. When he finally used it as his name, it was an Islamic acronym, the Divine Mathematics letters R=Rule or Ruler, Z=Zig-Zag-Zig (Knowledge, Wisdom, Understanding or Man, Woman, Child), and A=Allah. He states this is the official use of the name. Not the word for the sound of the name which put the idea in his mind in the beginning. I thought that was pretty clear with what he was saying. And the official use of his name is what should be reflected here, not the word that symbolizes the sound it makes when verbalized, which his friends came up with in the beginning when he was trying to pick a name. When he finally chose to use it, he states it is letters, not a word. I think people will agree by simply reading what he is saying about the name. I was under the impression that we were discussing the official use of his rap moniker, and not a nickname that his friends came up with in the beginning of his rap career that he never officially used...until he did officially use it as letters, not a word. His friends did not come up with the official use of his moniker, he did, after teachings from the Nation of Islam. Wufan10304 (talk) 19:59, 23 April 2013 (UTC)

Okay, so we're finally in agreement. 1) The name 'Rza' is derived from the word 'razor'. 2) It's not an acronym, it's a backronym. You're finally conceding both of these things, yes? Alright, and now your point rests on the claim that the creation of this backronym predates Rza's use of the name as his rap moniker. Maybe it does. But please explain how that's remotely relevant. It remains a backronym that has never been an initialism (meaning it did not start out as a series of individually pronounced letters, R-Z-A, and then later become an acronym), it has only ever been pronounced 'rizza'. Other than the artist wanting it capitalised for personal/professional reasons, why should Wikipedia reproduce this style? Your analogy to the spelling of Ghostface Killah/Ghost Faced Killer is mistaken, because we're not talking about changing the spelling of Rza's name, only the style. You have to appeal to Wikipedia style guidelines on this, and the guidelines in this case are to choose the style that most closely resembles conventional English from among all the styles in use, and not to invent new ones. It's easy to find sources where Rza's name is formatted like so, and therefore that's the style we should go with, according to Wiki guidelines. The question is, is there any good reason for this to be capitalised? That the artist likes to capitalise it is not a good enough reason. The same goes for Gza. Wetdogmeat (talk) 20:19, 23 April 2013 (UTC)

Well my reasoning for the early spelling of Ghostface was in relevance to your spelling of RZA's name in Gravediggaz, Rzarector, an early spelling, later professionally and officially used as RZArecta. Liner notes in albums reflect this as well as RZA himself. Now my point is that the official use of the name should be the one used, not the first time it was said to him as a nickname. What if he never shared that story? The public would have no idea. Another user above states that it is a minor spelling in sources, showing that it is not officially used that way. So why should it be changed just because it is read as a word even though it is officially an acronym created by the owner? You keep talking about the unofficial use of the name as created by friends, not the owner. I think the owner's creation of the name and official use should be the one used. Wufan10304 (talk) 20:28, 23 April 2013 (UTC)

You keep using the word 'official'--even going so far as to edit your earlier posts, presumably to save face, since you've been claiming that 'Rza' is not derived from 'razor' and then quoted Rza saying explicitly that it is--but it doesn't give any more weight to your argument. In fact, it doesn't even mean anything. On the first Gravediggaz album Rza uses the name Rzarector, 'officially'. That he later used the name RZArecta 'officially' makes no difference. One is as 'official' as the other. You've already conceded that Ruler Zig-Zag-Zig Allah is a backronym, and now you're trying to claim it's an acronym again. I've explained the difference to you several times now. As the user above has stated, Rza's name is occasionally styled 'Rza'. That is enough to satisfy Wikipedia standards. You are ignoring the fact that the Wikipedia guidelines are what you have to appeal to. I'll restate them for you: 1) we must choose from among all the existing styles and not invent new ones, 2) we must choose the style that most closely resembles normal English. That style is Rza, as used by reliable sources such as MTV, XXL, Sway, and others. All your talk about what is and isn't 'official' is irrelevant. As is your flip-flopping on whether it's an acronym or backronym. Wetdogmeat (talk) 20:41, 23 April 2013 (UTC)

You can add HipHopDX, The Source and TMZ to the list of reliable sources. Wetdogmeat (talk) 21:05, 23 April 2013 (UTC)

Alright, well I'm not versed in Wikipedia guidelines, but I'm just arguing for the point of how the name is used now. No album has lowercase letters, and he refers to him name in all caps, regardless of how it is said. My points above still remain relevant in this issue. Wufan10304 (talk) 21:48, 23 April 2013 (UTC)

I don't disagree with that. Rza himself always capitalises it. But the Wikipedia guidelines are to not reproduce trademark stylisations like that, or else we'd have articles named Ke$ha and EMINƎM and so on. Wetdogmeat (talk) 22:17, 23 April 2013 (UTC)

• Support. Is the minority in sources, however it still is used so it can be used properly as the title of the article to avoid using special stylizations. The subject should still be referred throughout the article as RZA as he is listed as that in 90% of the sources and at MTV, Rotten Tomatoes, Pitchfork, IMDB. STATic message me! 21:14, 23 April 2013 (UTC)

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the proposal. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

Requested move 2

The following discussion is an archived discussion of the proposal. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the proposal was not moved. DarthBotto _talk•cont 09:17, 24 July 2013 (UTC)

Rza → RZA – Per WP:COMMONNAME. Rza is used in a minority of reliable sources (saying that, I can't find any at all) and the COMMONNAME aspect of policy (WP:AT) overrides any MOS guideline. (e.g. MOS:TM and WP:ALLCAPS.) Insulam Simia (^talk/_contribs) 14:20, 16 July 2013 (UTC)

• Oppose. 1) Appealing to COMMONNAME is begging the question regarding the policy's applicability to questions of style. 2) Perhaps you'll find some reliable sources cited in the original RM, if you look. Wetdogmeat (talk) 14:46, 16 July 2013 (UTC)

• I have reason to believe that the MTV source you have given shows a spelling mistake, because when I searched the MTV website, it showed no other results for Rza - only RZA. This may or may not be the same for other sources (the other reason may be down to the fact that the author of the page was lazy). Insulam Simia (^talk/_contribs) 14:30, 17 July 2013 (UTC)

• That's your own speculation. (And now we're 'spelling' things with the shift key? Bizarre, but okay, I'm not getting into that argument again.) Here are some instances from Contact Music: [1], [2], [3], [4], [5]. But if you search the site you'll find many instances of the all caps style too. Wetdogmeat (talk) 14:52, 17 July 2013 (UTC)

• You know what I mean - it hasn't been capitalised properly. Insulam Simia (^talk/_contribs) 15:49, 17 July 2013 (UTC)

• Oppose. WP:COMMONNAME is not a policy; it is an aspect of the article titling policy. That gives it the same force as MOS:TM, not superior. Furthermore, since MOS:TM requires us to lowercase the trademark in prose, it's kind of silly to have it all-caps in the title. Powers ^T 16:49, 16 July 2013 (UTC)

• If it's part of policy then it still is policy. Who said it suddenly had less power? Insulam Simia (^talk/_contribs) 06:54, 17 July 2013 (UTC)
• I think you mean it has the same force as WP:TITLETM, which is part of the same policy. The MOS guidelines give additional information and clarification on some aspects of policy, but there are also inconsistencies and contradictions between the MOS and policy pages, as well as between various sections of the MOS. —Frungi (talk) 10:52, 17 July 2013 (UTC)

• Support Per the policy WP:COMMONNAME, WP:ACRONYMTITLE#Acronyms_in_page_titles, and per the goals listed at WP:CRITERIA:

• Recognizability - Both RZA and Rza are recognizable
• Naturalness – RZA is what the user would search for and what they would expect the title to be.
• Precision – RZA is more precise because it is the version used by sources, and RZA himself.
• Conciseness – Both are concise.
• Consistency – I couldn't find other band that use all caps to judge consistency. Ross Hill 23:23, 16 July 2013 (UTC)

• 1) Who holds the shift key or presses caps lock to search for things in all caps? 2) RZA is not used by all sources, and the preference of the subject is irrelevant. 3) KISS use all caps. 4) RZA is not an acronym. Wetdogmeat (talk) 01:14, 17 July 2013 (UTC)

1. I have no idea what your getting at 2. Preference of sources is relevent 3. another article to change I suppose Ross Hill 02:31, 17 July 2013 (UTC)

1) You said "RZA" is what the user would search for (as opposed to "Rza" or "rza"), but who holds the shift key or presses caps lock to search for things in all caps? 2) Yes, but you mentioned the style that "RZA himself" uses, which is irrelevant. The preference of sources is relevant, but not all sources use "RZA", as demonstrated in the original RM. 3) Probably not, per WP:ALLCAPS. Wetdogmeat (talk) 14:05, 17 July 2013 (UTC)

• Oppose MOS:CAPS Rza isn't an acronym -- 76.65.128.222 (talk) 05:55, 17 July 2013 (UTC)

• COMMONNAME (which is part of a policy) overrides the guideline. Insulam Simia (^talk/_contribs) 06:54, 17 July 2013 (UTC)

• We have a lot of European articles to rename if that were true. Over the last year, they've been moved away from the common name (as found in the majority of sources, or the majority of English sources) and into their non-English native names, clearly against the common name. -- 76.65.128.222 (talk) 07:09, 17 July 2013 (UTC)

• Yes, other stuff does exist. Insulam Simia (^talk/_contribs) 14:22, 17 July 2013 (UTC)

• They don't merely exist, they have discussions to back up the renaming, so it isn't simply WP:OTHERSTUFF. -- 76.65.128.222 (talk) 04:27, 18 July 2013 (UTC)

• Support It stands for "Ruler-Zig-Zag-Zig-Allah" so all caps is appropriate. It is also the clear majority in sources and better proper title.STATic message me! 18:02, 17 July 2013 (UTC)

  The fact that it's a backronym (not an acronym) is irrelevant, unless you think WU-TANG should also be capitalised. Wetdogmeat (talk) 18:22, 17 July 2013 (UTC)

Also, you supported the move to Rza. You wrote: "Support. Is the minority in sources, however it still is used so it can be used properly as the title of the article to avoid using special stylizations." Has something changed? Because your rationale here ("proper title") is a direct contradiction of your rationale for supporting the initial move. Wetdogmeat (talk) 18:36, 17 July 2013 (UTC)

However, Wu-Tang is not the name. It is "Wu-Tang Clan" which is how the majority of reliable sources refer to them (with proper capitalization). Opinions change, and it seemed proper before, and I had not seen the arguments for opposing in the last RM. STATic message me! 18:58, 17 July 2013 (UTC)

You're conflating the two points that you made. Leaving aside the fact that most sources reproduce the capitalisation (which you were aware of when you !voted in the previous RM), you stated that "It stands for "Ruler-Zig-Zag-Zig-Allah" so all caps is appropriate." Now, as demonstrated in the previous RM (which, if I'm understanding you correctly, you're only just reading now), "RZA" is not an acronym, it's a backronym. The name is derived from the word 'razor', and the assignation of words to the letters, "Ruler Zig-Zag-Zig Allah", followed later. So it's a backronym, not an acronym. Just like "WU-TANG" is a backronym for "Witty Unpredictable Talent And Natural Game", yet you would not accept this as a contributing factor to an argument to move "Wu-Tang Clan" to "WU-TANG Clan". Its status as a backronym is completely irrelevent to any RM. The only argument for opposing in the last RM was that it's an acronym and therefore should be capitalised (false, as it is not an acronym). Everyone else, including yourself, supported the move, noting that "Rza" is the more appropriate title despite being the minority in sources. Has your opinion changed for no reason? Wetdogmeat (talk) 20:23, 17 July 2013 (UTC)

• Support He has always been credited as RZA. Koala15 (talk) 20:28, 17 July 2013 (UTC)

  Credited where? On album covers? His name is routinely listed as "Rza" on Amazon, for instance. Because when the album cover is styled as "THE BLACK KEYS & RZA" it's natural to reformat it as "The Black Keys & Rza", since neither of the words are acronyms or initialisms. And how he is credited on releases is not important, it's how his name appears in sources, and it's not hard at all to find reliable sources that don't use the allcaps style. It seems no sources completely avoid it, but it does seem it's a matter of indifference for many of them, in which case we should choose the style that best conforms to our guidelines. Wetdogmeat (talk) 20:42, 17 July 2013 (UTC)

• Support move - Sigh... yet another WP:COMMONNAME vs. MOS dispute? While I know that OTHERSTUFF is not a good argument, I have to draw people's attention to the recent RMs at Talk:Deadmau5 and Talk:Sunn O)))... there is a pattern emerging here that needs to be considered. But on to the specifics of this case... A quick look through Google News makes it clear that RZA (with all caps) is the standard way to refer to this performer. An overwhelming majority of reliable sources are consistent on this... including the high-end ones such as Rolling Stone. (Note for Wetdog... Amazon is not considered a reliable source). If nothing else, this overwhelming usage should be taken as reason why this particular article title should be considered an exception to MOS guidance. Blueboar (talk) 17:15, 19 July 2013 (UTC)

  I know that. I was illustrating the fact that his being 'credited' as "RZA" is irrelevant, as artist's names are routinely written in allcaps on album covers and so on. Wetdogmeat (talk) 18:24, 19 July 2013 (UTC)

  It's only fine and dandy if we can apply this to all the Western European articles that don't use the common name as found in English. If not, we will have two standards, common name used in English for English language topics, and original name used in source language for Western European topics. -- 76.65.128.222 (talk) 05:20, 20 July 2013 (UTC)

@Wetdogmeat... The issue isn't how an artist's name is stylized on an album cover... the issue is how reliable sources routinely present the artist's name. If enough sources repeat a stylization, it becomes an integral part of the artist's name. To illustrate: consider The Beatles... on most of their albums (and on Ringo's drum set) the Beatles stylized their name (aproximately) as: BEA_TLES (all caps, different sized letters, and a different font on the "T"). However, that stylization was/is not repeated in reliable sources (who simply present the name as "The Beatles" or, less commonly, just "Beatles"). In that case, COMMONNAME would indicate that we should not use the album stylization in the title of our article. Instead we should follow the sources (which happens to be in normal English style). Now compare that example to this case. Here, the sources do consistently repeat the artist's stylization. The name is capitalized in the vast majority of reliable sources that discuss this artist. That usage in sources takes the capitalization beyond just a stylization on an album cover... it makes it the accepted way to present artist's name. Blueboar (talk) 16:17, 21 July 2013 (UTC)

1) Why do you think I'm claiming exactly the opposite of what I'm claiming? Koala15 !voted 'support' on the basis that "He has always been credited as RZA." I responded "Credited where?" and explained that the way the artist's name appears on album covers and promotional material is irrelevant, which is now the very point you're trying to stress to me. 2) Reliable sources also use the non caps style. They do not consistently stick to the all caps style, as demonstrated by the sources provided. 3) I am aware of your attempt to alter the MOS so that "If enough sources repeat a stylization, it becomes an integral part of the artist's name"; I was not aware that you had been successful in your efforts. If you have, please point me to the relevant part of the new and improved guideline. If you haven't, please explain why you're acting as though you have. -- Wetdogmeat (talk) 16:31, 21 July 2013 (UTC)

2) 6 out of 10.5 million Google hits? That's certainly not a common name. Insulam Simia (^talk/_contribs) 16:41, 21 July 2013 (UTC)

I see. I have to literally collect and present every one of the 10.5m hits that do not consistently reproduce the allcaps style, while you have merely to type "rza" into Google and assume that all 10.5m hits are: a) unique reliable sources; and b) consistently reproduce the allcaps style. Oh, and "Rza" and "RZA" are the same name; this is about style. -- Wetdogmeat (talk) 17:07, 21 July 2013 (UTC)

In the same lieu as my decision for closing the discussion without a move for Gza, I am enacting this here. This is due to the fact of COMMONNAME and ALLCAPS. While a backronym may apply here, those two degrees of rationale alone override the merit of this request. DarthBotto _talk•cont 09:17, 24 July 2013 (UTC)

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the proposal. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

Vegetarian vs Vegan

Was fortunate enough to meet RZA tonight at an event. He mentioned he was vegan, not vegetarian. But I don't have an official source to back me up. :( — Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.178.250.188 (talk) 00:43, 10 October 2014 (UTC)

Requested move 26 June 2015

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the move request was: moved. Jenks24 (talk) 13:51, 13 July 2015 (UTC)

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Rza → RZA – Users and moderators are stylizating this person's moniker inaccurately even after provided proof that their idea of his stylization is incorrect. The name is not a backronym. The name is stylized as an acronym from the creation of the moniker itself. RZA states this himself in his book "The Wu-Tang Manual" pgs. 4-5. Users and moderators are misunderstanding the quotes put before them to twist into their own idea that his words on the creation of the name somehow imply that it is a backronym when he is clearly stating that it is an acronym, that is, the name is derived from letters that stand for "Ruler Zig-Zag-Zig Allah" from the creation, and not as a word first. Being misunderstood is the story RZA shares about friends in early days giving him the sound of the name, however that was not his name then nor did he take it on as a moniker. However, when he did take it on as a moniker, he specifically states that he and no one else created it as an acronym. It is an ongoing debate and one that moderators are refusing to accept and constantly fight about. Please help in changing his article name back to his own creation's stylizings. --Relisted. George Ho (talk) 21:28, 3 July 2015 (UTC) Wufan10304 (talk) 04:02, 26 June 2015 (UTC)

• Strong oppose per previous RMs and en.wp style. Rza (/ˈrɪzə/ RIZ-ə) pronounced "rizzer" is not an acronym. Leave as is. In ictu oculi (talk) 04:30, 26 June 2015 (UTC)

You misunderstand the request then. I'm clearly stating that the opinion of RZA not being an acronym is wrong. Twisting a story he shared about his friends early on stylizing his graffiti tag name by saying it to him does not mean it is the basis for his name. He later took the letters since it was fly and since he had already created his Islam name, they fit. That is not a backronym. He did not create the name later. He used the Supreme Alphabet when he was a student of Islam, this was before Wu-Tang was ever created. They all had names like this. GZA/Genius was Justice Allah. DJ Mathematics is Allah Mathematics. Zig-Zag-Zig means Knowledge, Wisdom, Understanding; or Man, Woman, Child; or Sun, Earth, Stars. He had this in the late 80's this name. He was Prince Rakeem then, up to 1990-1991 when he was on Tommy Boy Records. He used his Islam name for his moniker when he created Wu-Tang in 1992. I am not making this up. This is all in his book spread over the chapters about the origins of the group and how Islam played a role in it using Supreme Alphabet and Supreme Mathematics. Obviously there is strong opposition to all yall's claim that this is not an acronym, as well. RZA undeniably states himself, that it is such. But I know you will still try to all battle me on this since some sources misprint the stylized usage of his name. As other have pointed out, there is massive overwhelming credible sources that RZA is the man's name, not Rza. It is also stylized as "The RZA", where the word The is capitalized with lowercase letters or small caps letters following the punctuation capitalization but the following name RZA is always all-caps. And that is never a mistake or misprint. RZA, though pronounced as a word, is an acronym. This comes from the man himself. It is very suspicious how y'all continue to deny it. Also: it is not pronounced "rizzer". Not sure where you pulled that from. Wufan10304 (talk) 01:28, 27 June 2015 (UTC)

• Neutral for now (leaning oppose per In ictu oculi). But more to the point, holy cow, how does RZA (disambiguation) not exist? Red Slash 05:10, 26 June 2015 (UTC)
• Strongly Support It seems very strange to me that, when almost every single reliable source, including industry publications, uses what we know with certainty is the correct use of a name, that we would intentionally choose what we know not to be correct. The proposed title is overwhelmingly preferred by the policy of using the most common name, and the manual of style specifically encourages editor discretion. The MOS is great for our writing style and when the official or common name might be unknown, but to argue that it should be used to take an official name with a specifically chosen title that is used by the absolutely overwhelming majority of reliable sources, including books, newspapers, and websites, as well as is the generally common name is fairly absurd. Our title guidelines and policies are unfortunately somewhat murky. But, what it comes down to can be gleaned from Wikipedia:Naming conventions (capitalization), which states that "an adherence to conventions widely used in the genre are critically important to credibility". If Billboard is using a style, and Rolling Stone or the books written that discuss the song, or Spin or just the bulk of reliable sourcing in general largely use the official title, is it really common sense for us to be saying we shouldn't be following the sources here in order to somehow adhere to conventions and gain credibility? Wikipedia is a unique construct in that our work is so clearly tied and based off of reliable sourcing about the subject -- making us stand out and go against the grain here just doesn't make much sense.--Yaksar (let's chat) 02:35, 29 June 2015 (UTC)

It's especially weird in this case because in our own article we use the correct name -- obviously. But this doesn't sync with our title because of a silly adherence to a rule that doesn't fit here.--Yaksar (let's chat) 02:39, 29 June 2015 (UTC)

• Support. Let's follow reliable sources. Calidum T|C 01:18, 4 July 2015 (UTC)
• Support, and noting that the same arguments could be used to overturn most if not all applications of MOS:TM it will be very interesting to see where this leads. Andrewa (talk) 18:50, 11 July 2015 (UTC)

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The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page or in a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

Career Date of 1984 or 1991?

Some anonymous editor(s) has suggested 1984 as the proper first year of his rapping career. While the language has not been beautiful, the Hip Hop Core interview appears to be a reputable source that confirms it. But we seem to be in a modest, unheated edit war over which year to use. Perhaps rather than going back and forth between the two, we can take to the Talk page here to attempt to reach consensus, even if one editor chooses to remain anonymous.Czrisher (talk) 20:40, 18 November 2019 (UTC)