Wikipedia

Talk:Pope Pius XII/Archive 9

< Talk:Pope Pius XII
(Redirected from Talk:Pius XII/Archive9)
Latest comment: 18 years ago by EffK in topic Pius and 'Soft peace' with Nazi Germany
Archive 5←Archive 7Archive 8Archive 9Archive 10Archive 11→Archive 15

Answer re Flamekeeper, Famekeeper/EffK input excised

Latest comment: 18 years ago1 comment1 person in discussion
This is what I put in a year ago:
Cardinal Pacelli played a large part in the internal affairs of Germany all his life . He was Nuncio from 1917 before becoming Secretary of State . The remaining dispute should not rest on his anti-semitism during his Papacy but more rightly on his initial involvement with the Nazi Party . Papen had been a leader of the Catholic Zentrums Party and the history centres on Pacelli's involvement with the Zentrums Party leadership in 1932 . According to the most noteable foreign journalist present in Berlin and who was effectively expelled by Hitler as a first act of his subsequent Chancellorship , Pacelli wrote a letter to the Zentrum , which was read out by the Party leader( Monsignor Ludwig Kaas ) at a central meeting in May ,1932 . This stated that the Pope was worried by the rise of Communism in Germany and that he therefore advised that they support Hitler's Chancellorship . The following March 28 the Fulda Bishop's Conference backed the Nazi's and in April Rome had refused to issue a condemnation of anti-semitism . A further time-line of visits and co-operation between Hitler and Rome indeed suggests complete co-ordination in a complex series of manoeuvres that lead up to the final Concordat . As far as the Zentrums ( Catholic Centre Party) is concerned this ended with its voluntary dissolution on July 5 1933. Its' leader Monsignor Ludwig Kaas rose shortly thereafter to hold the Care of the Fabric of St. Peter's Cathedral in Rome ( a position which gave him keys and therefore unobserved access ). Kaas was the negotiator directly between Rome and Adolf Hitler firstly concerning the internal German parliamentary Enabling Act negotiations during March 20-23 ,returning from his subsequent visit to Rome on 31 March ,three days after the Fulda Bishops decision to withdraw the Church prohibition on Nazi membership .Kaas had a Private meeting with Hitler on April 2nd and the Vatican that month issued an Encyclical which not only did not condemn anti-semitism but which stated that the Holy See saw no difficulty in relationship to a "Christian Dictatorship ". Kaas relinquished the Zentrum leadership on April 6 , presumably in order to both deflect suspicion over these connections made in the quid pro quo of the Enabling Act and to channel communications for the coming Concordat. Kaas and Papen travelled secretly to Rome where Pacelli on April 9 receives first Kaas and then Papen Apr 10 . Goering and Papen are received also Apr 10 by Pope Pius XI , who expressed pleasure at the appearance of a strong man in Germany(Hitler) . Apr 15 Kaas and Papen meet Pacelli and Monsignor Kaas is deputed to draft the terms of the Concordat whereby Catholic Confessional schools and civil-servants are protected . The draft is studied by Cardinal Pacelli and Pius XI on Apr 18 and on Apr 20 Kaas sends a birthday greeting to Adolf Hitler in a widely disseminated public gesture in which Hitler is assured of un-flinching Papal co-operation . In the following days Ambassadorial reports confirm that Pacelli approves sincere co-operation by the Church to benefit and lead the Nazi Party within the Christian Weltanschauung . As Kaas never again set foot in Germany the intermediary becomes Papen who hardens his position as far as publicly calling on Jun 15 for the overthrow of Liberalism and for a Christian counter-revolution to 1789 (French Revolution). Hitler agrees to Papen's representation to Rome in order to finalise the Concordat where Papen arrives on Jun 29 . The British Ambassador to Germany is informed that same day that the zentrumspartei will dissolve itself the following day . Hitler telephones von Papen in Rome and Papen cables German Foreign Minister von Neurath on Jul 3 to the effect that he , Cardinal Pacelli , Archbishop Groeber and Monsignor Kaas had signed the conclusive draft of the concordat , and that the Zentrums' dissolution is certain and approved . The Catholic Centre Party publishes its dissolution and Jul 8 the German vice-Chancellor and Cardinal Pacelli formally sign the Concordat( the same day the Nazi salute is instituted within Germany) .
In April 2005 I added {disputed}, ten days later I added{protected}. earlier I had tried to include:
The questions arising from the Concordat have re-surfaced of late because of the moves toward canonisation for Pope Pius XII, and recent reference to the Enabling act in the book Memoria e Identidad by Pope John Paul II, who cites it as an example of the dangers associated with Liberal Parliamentary Democracy. However the Concordat represents most clearly the opposite dangers to a Democracy from a Church .
By end April thew above was reduced to:
Cardinal Pacelli allegedly(Disputed) played a large part in the internal affairs of Germany all his life. He was the Papal Nuncio in Bavaria from 1917 before becoming Secretary of State. As Nuncio, in a letter dated November 14, 1923, to Vatican Secretary of State Cardinal Pietro Gasparri, Pacelli denounced the National Socialist movement as an anti-Catholic and anti-Hebrew threat and remarks that Cardinal Michael von Faulhaber of Munich had condemned acts of persecution against Bavaria's Jews. However, in 1933 during Mar 20-23 the Enabling act negotiations were undertaken for Cardinal Pacelli by his close friend and lifelong associate Monsignor Ludwig Kaas, leader of the Zentrum party. Kaas followed this by immediately reporting to Cardinal Pacelli in the Vatican before then returning by April 2 for a private meeting with Adolf Hitler. Faulhaber was also prevailed upon to accede by public recomendation of the Fuhrer preceding the plebiscite for the withdrawal of Germany from the League of Nations.
Then 26 april
In June 1933 Adolf Hitler had signed a peace agreement with most of Europe, called the Four-Power Pact. Hitler later wrote to Rome to negotiate a statewide concordat with Rome. As Papal Secretary of State to Pius XI, Pacelli signed a concordat with Germany (see image). This was shortly after Germany had signed similar agreements with all Protestant churches in Germany.
As you see , 9 April Papen had become laterthan June 1933 ! On 4 may the relevant cultural fact was removed, after much of the preceding had been removed by str1977, as in the anon excision here:
Rolf Hochhuth's 1963 play Der Stellvertreter. Ein christliches Trauerspiel (The Deputy, a Christian tragedy) fiercely criticized Pope Pius XII's behaviour during the Nazi regime in Germany. Warren Hinckle, editor of the liberal Catholic quarterly Ramparts called the play "dramaturgically flawed", but formed a committee to defend the play as a matter of free speech.
But Str continues to excise in early May 2005: The farce over the Pope's health and treatment in death caused considerable embarrassment to the Vatican, but in the 1950s was not reported, though widely rumoured among those in Rome who had witnessed the body's decay as it lay in state, as well as being captured in photographs. (See Catholic website below.) One of the first acts of Pius' successor, Pope John XXIII, was to ban the charlatan from Vatican City for life.
Links taken such as :Article on 'Pope Pius XII and the Jews'
Article on 'Pope Pius XII and the Jews'
I return and try again with:In his June 3 Enciclical Dilectissima Nobis countering separation of church and state , Pius XI stated that the church finds no difficulty in adapting herself to various civil institutions , be they monarchic or republican , aristocratic or democratic provided the divine rights of God and of Christian consciences are safe . In germany at this time the term would have been that of christian dictatorship
and : Although the Papacy had since 1925 been using the Centre Party as a tool of vatican policy , this was never successful in eradicating the dangers of socialism and republicanism and by 1933 the papal policy was to abandon the catholic democrats ,and ally itself with first the rightist, industrialist forces of the nationalists and then with the Nazi force of dictatorship
and :Reports of complicity towards restoration of the monarchy suggest great care by the vatican to avoid evidential remains .
I tried to replace , after sam Spade had been overseeing , on 4-9 may :Critics cite the very opposite dangers , of the successful destabilisation of a democracy by a church .
Str1977 removes the TV report of Jewiish consternation at the late John Paul II'd Book[[1]] and then rv's :Great anger amongst Jewish groups arose following an associated reference to Abortion as the new Holocaust
I added in july, as it is the first time a court has denied vatican sovereign Immunity: The heaviest critic of Pope Pius XII is an American of x-Yugoslav origin who is bringing forward a federal court case against the vatican concerning allegations that Croation Franciscan - Ustashe Hierarchy and Priests colluded with the vatican to remove war-crime loot to the Vatican Bank during World War II . This would require the vatican to release their archives in account and would require a clear position to be taken by the present pontiff, Pope Benedict XVI , concerning related questions of the financing for Nazi and Ustashe priest rat-lines to Argentina and elsewhere . Vatican lawyers claims for diplomatic immunity failed in 2005 .
2 August str1977 adds :However there is no proof of any connection between the Enabling Act and the Concordat.
On 7 august[[2]] I try and complete , then add[[3]]The quid pro quo with Adolf Hitler lives in histories relating to this descent of Europe into barbarity and war . In terms of the Holocaust itself Pius not having spoken out for the Jews publicly by name , nor in strong and explicit condemnation of Nazism is noted .It is recently argued (see Hitler's Pope that Pacelli himself was a lifelong anti-semite who otherwise could have seriously undermined Hitler and Nazism among Germany's many catholics. While the world was divided politically and geographically, many catholics were united behind their Pope, and followed his lead into their own personal accomodations with Hitlerism .
Had Pope Pius XII denounced Nazism in the strongest possible terms, it is possible that it could have not only caused unrest amongst catholics in the German army, but it could have also caused catholics working in German war factories to undermine German army support and logistics systems. This would have dealt a serious blow to the German war effort. Conversely, such action probably would have caused heavy suppression of Catholics, given that Nazism was more focused on Protestantism in the first place.
Such speculation does not form any part of the German Resistance ( Widerstand ) studies .
Pius XII has also recently been heavily attacked by Bill Dorich, an American journalist and activist of Serbian descent. He has brought forth a federal court case against the Vatican for its alleged collusion in war crimes by the Croatian Ustashe and even more ominously , fo secreting large vaults of croatian war-loot into the Vatican coffers. the suit alleges that this was used to finance yet more of the almost 'mythic' rat-lines mentioned in ODESSA . This secret vatican re-location and funding of implicated Nazi and Ustashe priests and monks to largely South America is a subject in Biil Dorich's Federal suit .

Enough to show you that I tried. I could do better these days, were it possible. PS I see these guys are gunning for the sourced Rhenish-Westphalian Industrial Magnates. They have it down for deletion, Such bad faith-it is sourced. How bout voting against source then? Against History itself!EffK 21:59, 5 January 2006 (UTC)

Section closes and re-opens for ease of load

Latest comment: 18 years ago11 comments4 people in discussion
What is the meaning of this caption? Robert McClenon 18:04, 5 January 2006 (UTC)
I cringe if I have broken some law-otherwise it is for practical and manageable editing , and made under pressure. I seriously ask you Robert McClenon, in light of your extraordinary general behaviour, to voluntarily enter youreself into the EffK "pet theory" Arbcom trial , now. It would show clear conscience and good will. EffK 00:35, 6 January 2006 (UTC)

(EffK) I state that whatever is relevant is relevant to both here and to hitler's pages. it just is. Discussion and information is hard to corral, even wrong to corral. You may better vist the Dilectissima Nobis references and dsicussion at Adolf Hitler tald. I address you despite sore challenge from the last User, in the hope of a free source-and- verifiability led mind. I always have to hurry because conflicts arise incessantly with this user responding as fast as myself-fair play , but the result is that WP gets clogged, I get extra cosh, and on and on. See what User:Bengalski said perhaps [[4]]. A reaction to that would tell me if I am just in a hopeless but informed singularity. In the end , it's source against wishful-thinking. I also refer you to my suggestion as to how to enable a proper solution to all these issues made at http://en.wiki.x.io/wiki/Talk:Vatican_Bank#WP__Article_resolution_template. Thanks for asking. I have lost my faith in str1977 being persuaded to anything-even if he himself says he is. odd, isn't it?EffK 16:02, 5 January 2006 (UTC)

EffK Reply to above with relevant efforts:

I take that to mean 'yes.' So would you like to add to the article something like:
"John Toland writes in 'title, edition, page' that then-Cardinal Pacelli agreed to the dissolution of the Centre Party in exchange for Hitler's acceptance of the Reichskoncordat..."
with other details about the arrangement, and maybe another supporting citation to William Shrier. Another editor opposes this addition. Would you like to post here this short paragraph you propose to add so I can see exactly what it is? Tom Harrison Talk 16:08, 5 January 2006 (UTC)
I am one of the editors who has objected to some of EffK's edits. I certainly would not object to a statement such as you proposed, and I do not think that Str1977 would either. Robert McClenon 17:11, 5 January 2006 (UTC)
Dear Tom, I wouldn't object to including such a statement, if properly worded (NPOV), but the problem is that that is merely one point in the complex issue of concordat negotiations. We would have to include the whole concordat with all its regulations and that would make the article explode. Currently, Reichskonkordat links to a separate article, and IMHO that's a feasible solution. Str1977 17:54, 5 January 2006 (UTC)
Str1977 raises a valid point. Such a statement, if properly worded, would be appropriate in the Reichskonkordat article and in the Centre Party articles rather than in Pope Pius XII. What I meant was that Tom's proposed wording is the sort of statement that is NPOV and verifiable. Robert McClenon 18:04, 5 January 2006 (UTC)

I cannot tell you in less length that which you need to understand. I have a concatenation of sources, so anyway that wouldnt suffice either for WP or me or anyone. This complexity will only be possible between me and Str1977, as only we 2 follow each other. We unfortunately have diametrically obverse positio,n. If truly tried, or watched, I can prove mine, and I say he has caved on those I speak of. However that doesnt allow me any success-which is why the Artciles are as they are. I'm afraid to say that I have no faith that I shall be allowed to place anything anywhere anymore. I am blocked,in effect by bad faith from writing what should be written here as at Adolf Hitler. Because others assail my good will, I am not rightly constrained at this juncture to edit here for you to include. Any such work requires considerable care. i suggest you first condier the 2 edits which started the impossibility section, and try reverting , or re-including. I suggest that you read my linked (the last link) to the a.r.t. and get back to us both her and help Wikipedia overcome a major historical problem . We could try and institute proper inclusivity along those lines. I could survive being tried and thrown out . Or not. This is more serious than a single failure-it is a general failure-read Bengalski, if you are serious, please, first. Though do not expect that a single hand shake will settle this. This is document war. I have been perpetually denied source. I will present the totality through diffs , if I have not done so twice already. I also do not like being accused by a 'majority' of faith-constrained (openly one of them -Patsw)Users that I'm POV and in bad-faith. I have suffered for this a great deal, I resent the charges, and will not abide what is not allowed. I call this user a 'Vatican agent' and refer you to my User page where you will find my , personal, intellectual sourceing of the justification. What little question remains has gone already toArbcom actually.Please read Bengalski and sign up by all means to help. Promote the a.r.t "template" for all of good Wikipedia will, and this article in particular. Then we can discuss actually how to re-section these Articles , and then we can re-source them . I'll do it but I won't waste my time given the abuse and the Str1977 edits here above explained. You explain how I was forced out of here under the history, into Hitler's Pope and from there to the Great Scandal ? You make a statement as a mind-like Bengaslski did , as I am denied trust and good will and even my sanity and know what I place will be removed or massaged or twisted . Str1977 even changes things he knows are pure quote from source. believe me, it is evidence already. this is deeply sick, but has to be, as I repeatedly explain. April 9th 1933. str1977 is on one side of that line, and I know why. papen stuck as far as he could tothat line, but of course, he had to explain, defensively and painting himself as best he could, what led up to that. I persoanlly believe that the suspicion of history is vastly terrifyingly relevant and important to the Church and to the political present, as well as to the deadly history. I get the impression you are reluctant to read this. I cannot help that. Thanks,and no, it is Impossible I request section? I will answer anything I am asked, except to believe I am allowed to edit. if this is a test, i am requested to be blocked from editing both articles and talk pages. Wonder why ? I will negotiate through str1977 the correct use of my template, and with anyone. if it is accepted that contradictory appearances co-exist, I , following my mental anxiety being lifted at arbcom, will do whatever the good of the worlds requires. I will accede to hagiography, and will go down in the flames I spun here. Begin with the treaty, the article resolution template. if you insist on me having good faith- I can of course revert to myself-except I have given my word not to edit articles. Help me. EffK 16:48, 5 January 2006 (UTC)

In short, lodge a request for peer review , and then arbitration for this and related articles, do it via my EffK Trial, as parallel.Go third behind str1977 on my template and see mu user history where I propose it at Village Pump. Fair?EffK 16:52, 5 January 2006 (UTC)
Okay, I see the arbitration case; I don't have anything useful to contribute to that. I see the Talk:Vatican Bank#WP Article resolution template, but I don't see exactly how it applies here. This talk page is for discussion of changes to this article. Do you have some change to this article that you are proposing? Tom Harrison Talk 17:19, 5 January 2006 (UTC)

At Archive 4 The Robert McCelon removals of Famekeeper text such as "The quid pro quo with Adolf Hitler lives in histories relating to this descent of Europe into barbarity and war." are at http://en.wiki.x.io/wiki/Talk:Pius_XII/Archive4#Repair_for_Article_.28Famekeeper.29:::This is part of what I put in a year ago:

Cardinal Pacelli played a large part in the internal affairs of Germany all his life . He was Nuncio from 1917 before becoming Secretary of State . The remaining dispute should not rest on his anti-semitism during his Papacy but more rightly on his initial involvement with the Nazi Party . Papen had been a leader of the Catholic Zentrums Party and the history centres on Pacelli's involvement with the Zentrums Party leadership in 1932 . According to the most noteable foreign journalist present in Berlin and who was effectively expelled by Hitler as a first act of his subsequent Chancellorship , Pacelli wrote a letter to the Zentrum , which was read out by the Party leader( Monsignor Ludwig Kaas ) at a central meeting in May ,1932 . This stated that the Pope was worried by the rise of Communism in Germany and that he therefore advised that they support Hitler's Chancellorship . The following March 28 the Fulda Bishop's Conference backed the Nazi's and in April Rome had refused to issue a condemnation of anti-semitism . A further time-line of visits and co-operation between Hitler and Rome indeed suggests complete co-ordination in a complex series of manoeuvres that lead up to the final Concordat . As far as the Zentrums ( Catholic Centre Party) is concerned this ended with its voluntary dissolution on July 5 1933. Its' leader Monsignor Ludwig Kaas rose shortly thereafter to hold the Care of the Fabric of St. Peter's Cathedral in Rome ( a position which gave him keys and therefore unobserved access ). Kaas was the negotiator directly between Rome and Adolf Hitler firstly concerning the internal German parliamentary Enabling Act negotiations during March 20-23 ,returning from his subsequent visit to Rome on 31 March ,three days after the Fulda Bishops decision to withdraw the Church prohibition on Nazi membership .Kaas had a Private meeting with Hitler on April 2nd and the Vatican that month issued an Encyclical which not only did not condemn anti-semitism but which stated that the Holy See saw no difficulty in relationship to a "Christian Dictatorship ". Kaas relinquished the Zentrum leadership on April 6 , presumably in order to both deflect suspicion over these connections made in the quid pro quo of the Enabling Act and to channel communications for the coming Concordat. Kaas and Papen travelled secretly to Rome where Pacelli on April 9 receives first Kaas and then Papen Apr 10 . Goering and Papen are received also Apr 10 by Pope Pius XI , who expressed pleasure at the appearance of a strong man in Germany(Hitler) . Apr 15 Kaas and Papen meet Pacelli and Monsignor Kaas is deputed to draft the terms of the Concordat whereby Catholic Confessional schools and civil-servants are protected . The draft is studied by Cardinal Pacelli and Pius XI on Apr 18 and on Apr 20 Kaas sends a birthday greeting to Adolf Hitler in a widely disseminated public gesture in which Hitler is assured of un-flinching Papal co-operation . In the following days Ambassadorial reports confirm that Pacelli approves sincere co-operation by the Church to benefit and lead the Nazi Party within the Christian Weltanschauung . As Kaas never again set foot in Germany the intermediary becomes Papen who hardens his position as far as publicly calling on Jun 15 for the overthrow of Liberalism and for a Christian counter-revolution to 1789 (French Revolution). Hitler agrees to Papen's representation to Rome in order to finalise the Concordat where Papen arrives on Jun 29 . The British Ambassador to Germany is informed that same day that the zentrumspartei will dissolve itself the following day . Hitler telephones von Papen in Rome and Papen cables German Foreign Minister von Neurath on Jul 3 to the effect that he , Cardinal Pacelli , Archbishop Groeber and Monsignor Kaas had signed the conclusive draft of the concordat , and that the Zentrums' dissolution is certain and approved . The Catholic Centre Party publishes its dissolution and Jul 8 the German vice-Chancellor and Cardinal Pacelli formally sign the Concordat( the same day the Nazi salute is instituted within Germany) .
In April 2005 I added {disputed}, ten days later I added{protected}. earlier I had tried to include:
The questions arising from the Concordat have re-surfaced of late because of the moves toward canonisation for Pope Pius XII, and recent reference to the Enabling act in the book Memoria e Identidad by Pope John Paul II, who cites it as an example of the dangers associated with Liberal Parliamentary Democracy. However the Concordat represents most clearly the opposite dangers to a Democracy from a Church .
By end April thew above was reduced to:
Cardinal Pacelli allegedly(Disputed) played a large part in the internal affairs of Germany all his life. He was the Papal Nuncio in Bavaria from 1917 before becoming Secretary of State. As Nuncio, in a letter dated November 14, 1923, to Vatican Secretary of State Cardinal Pietro Gasparri, Pacelli denounced the National Socialist movement as an anti-Catholic and anti-Hebrew threat and remarks that Cardinal Michael von Faulhaber of Munich had condemned acts of persecution against Bavaria's Jews. However, in 1933 during Mar 20-23 the Enabling act negotiations were undertaken for Cardinal Pacelli by his close friend and lifelong associate Monsignor Ludwig Kaas, leader of the Zentrum party. Kaas followed this by immediately reporting to Cardinal Pacelli in the Vatican before then returning by April 2 for a private meeting with Adolf Hitler. Faulhaber was also prevailed upon to accede by public recomendation of the Fuhrer preceding the plebiscite for the withdrawal of Germany from the League of Nations.
Then 26 april
In June 1933 Adolf Hitler had signed a peace agreement with most of Europe, called the Four-Power Pact. Hitler later wrote to Rome to negotiate a statewide concordat with Rome. As Papal Secretary of State to Pius XI, Pacelli signed a concordat with Germany (see image). This was shortly after Germany had signed similar agreements with all Protestant churches in Germany.
As you see , 9 April Papen had become laterthan June 1933 ! On 4 may the relevant cultural fact was removed, after much of the preceding had been removed by str1977, as in the anon excision here:
Rolf Hochhuth's 1963 play Der Stellvertreter. Ein christliches Trauerspiel (The Deputy, a Christian tragedy) fiercely criticized Pope Pius XII's behaviour during the Nazi regime in Germany. Warren Hinckle, editor of the liberal Catholic quarterly Ramparts called the play "dramaturgically flawed", but formed a committee to defend the play as a matter of free speech.
But Str continues to excise in early May 2005: The farce over the Pope's health and treatment in death caused considerable embarrassment to the Vatican, but in the 1950s was not reported, though widely rumoured among those in Rome who had witnessed the body's decay as it lay in state, as well as being captured in photographs. (See Catholic website below.) One of the first acts of Pius' successor, Pope John XXIII, was to ban the charlatan from Vatican City for life.
Links taken such as :Article on 'Pope Pius XII and the Jews'
Article on 'Pope Pius XII and the Jews'
I return and try again with:In his June 3 Enciclical Dilectissima Nobis countering separation of church and state , Pius XI stated that the church finds no difficulty in adapting herself to various civil institutions , be they monarchic or republican , aristocratic or democratic provided the divine rights of God and of Christian consciences are safe . In germany at this time the term would have been that of christian dictatorship
and : Although the Papacy had since 1925 been using the Centre Party as a tool of vatican policy , this was never successful in eradicating the dangers of socialism and republicanism and by 1933 the papal policy was to abandon the catholic democrats ,and ally itself with first the rightist, industrialist forces of the nationalists and then with the Nazi force of dictatorship
and :Reports of complicity towards restoration of the monarchy suggest great care by the vatican to avoid evidential remains .
I tried to replace , after sam Spade had been overseeing , on 4-9 may :Critics cite the very opposite dangers , of the successful destabilisation of a democracy by a church .
Str1977 removes the TV report of Jewiish consternation at the late John Paul II'd Book[[5]] and then rv's :Great anger amongst Jewish groups arose following an associated reference to Abortion as the new Holocaust
I added in july, as it is the first time a court has denied vatican sovereign Immunity: The heaviest critic of Pope Pius XII is an American of x-Yugoslav origin who is bringing forward a federal court case against the vatican concerning allegations that Croation Franciscan - Ustashe Hierarchy and Priests colluded with the vatican to remove war-crime loot to the Vatican Bank during World War II . This would require the vatican to release their archives in account and would require a clear position to be taken by the present pontiff, Pope Benedict XVI , concerning related questions of the financing for Nazi and Ustashe priest rat-lines to Argentina and elsewhere . Vatican lawyers claims for diplomatic immunity failed in 2005 .
2 August str1977 adds :However there is no proof of any connection between the Enabling Act and the Concordat.
On 7 august[[6]] I try and complete , then add[[7]]The quid pro quo with Adolf Hitler lives in histories relating to this descent of Europe into barbarity and war . In terms of the Holocaust itself Pius not having spoken out for the Jews publicly by name , nor in strong and explicit condemnation of Nazism is noted .It is recently argued (see Hitler's Pope that Pacelli himself was a lifelong anti-semite who otherwise could have seriously undermined Hitler and Nazism among Germany's many catholics. While the world was divided politically and geographically, many catholics were united behind their Pope, and followed his lead into their own personal accomodations with Hitlerism .
Had Pope Pius XII denounced Nazism in the strongest possible terms, it is possible that it could have not only caused unrest amongst catholics in the German army, but it could have also caused catholics working in German war factories to undermine German army support and logistics systems. This would have dealt a serious blow to the German war effort. Conversely, such action probably would have caused heavy suppression of Catholics, given that Nazism was more focused on Protestantism in the first place.
Such speculation does not form any part of the German Resistance ( Widerstand ) studies .
Pius XII has also recently been heavily attacked by Bill Dorich, an American journalist and activist of Serbian descent. He has brought forth a federal court case against the Vatican for its alleged collusion in war crimes by the Croatian Ustashe and even more ominously , fo secreting large vaults of croatian war-loot into the Vatican coffers. the suit alleges that this was used to finance yet more of the almost 'mythic' rat-lines mentioned in ODESSA . This secret vatican re-location and funding of implicated Nazi and Ustashe priests and monks to largely South America is a subject in Biil Dorich's Federal suit .

Enough to show you that I tried ?. I could do better these days, were it possible. PS I see these guys are gunning for the sourced Rhenish-Westphalian Industrial Magnates. They have it down for deletion, Such bad faith-it is sourced. How 'bout voting against source then? Against History itself! I guess the motives will be revealed. the attention is good, but our new administrator should take note of such moves, really.EffK 21:59, 5 January 2006 (UTC)

Pius and 'Soft peace' with Nazi Germany

Latest comment: 18 years ago1 comment1 person in discussion

One Source for wartime intermediaryship by Pope Pius XII can be see at p 491 in Sir John Wheeler-Bennett's The Nemesis of Power. Ex-smith College Klemens von Klemperer's German Resistance Against Hitler ISBN 0 19 821940 7 , deals extensively with the two attempts. Wheeler-Bennett says all he knows, which is less, but mentions that "According to what [Dr. Josef] Müller reported from Rome to his principals in Berlin, the Pope was was apparently prepared to go to surprising lengths in his understanding of German interests" upon the first attempt in 1940 to achieve a 'soft-peace' or a removal of Hitler without other penalty to Germany. This Widerstand attempt was made before Churchill's premiership .There was a second Reichswehr Generals' attempt in 1943, which still hoped for soft terms, with no favour shown by the British. Both attempts were tenuously chanelled through curious intermediaries, and Pius was extremely careful to ensure complete secrecy, for obvious reason. Ludwig Kaas was behind the Central papal intermediary,a Father Lieber involved in the first exchanges, but over-seeing for Pius in the second. The Gestapo discovered the second attempt after the event, the records of which fell into their hands.

"The Holy Father was prepared to act as intermediary for an understanding with Britain ,[ on the first attempt,] on the following terms:

The removal of the Nazi Regime.
The formation of a new German Government and the restoration of the Rechstaat in Germany.
No attack on the West by either side.
The settlement of the Eastern question in favour of Germany.

The terms were unchanged at the second attempt. the Eastern question involved the reason for World War II, being that of the Polish Corridoor and Danzig/German territory. "The report for 1940 purported to show that the British Government ( of Neville Chamberlain) were actually ready for an understanding on these conditions." Recently the British Parliamentarian Michael Foot sttated that if this had happened , he would have personally stabbed Lord Halifax, and that revolution would have resulted. EffK 11:22, 6 January 2006 (UTC)(forgot at time)

Sources Mentioned

Further to Bengalski and Tom Harrison I shall try and list the sources mentioned in connection with this article/subject.

FWIW, to get a proper perspective on Pius XII and his relationships with the several Fascist dictators, you have to trace Vatican politics back at least to the period of the French Revolution and the Italian Risorgimento. Pius XII's chummyness with the Nazis and with Fascist dictators was in fact founded on the traditional politics and policies of the Papacy,
  • Avro Manhattan: Avro Manhattan was the world's foremost authority on Roman Catholicism in politics. A resident of London, during WW II he operated a radio station called "Radio Freedom" broadcasting to occupied Europe. He was the author of over 20 books including the best-seller The Vatican in World Politics. (discussion here 2003)
  • Encyclical [[Dilectissima Nobis) (mentioned 2005)
  • "Hitler’s Pope: The Secret History of Pius XII", by John Cornwell (discussion here 2003)
  • Adolf Hitler, "Mein Kampf" (Hitler was never excommunicated by the Vatican. Mein Kampf was never banned by The Church.) (mentioned here 2003)
  • "The Catholic Church and Germany" by Guenter Lewy, from OUP (mentioned 2005)
  • [[http:www.//geocities.comvisplace/vatican10p2.htm)] explains the concerns of the Holy See, the Kaas importance and the monarchist factor in negotiations with the Centre (and the DNvP), and explains closely why there is a dearth of vatican documents.(mentioned 2005)
  • The Postulator for Pius XII, Dr. Peter Gumpel SJ wrote in 1999 that John Cornwell was blinded by the writings of Heinrich Bruning, accepting Bruning's hatred of Papal Prelate Kaas and extending this to Pacelli since "Kaas worked with Pacelli". (mentioned 2005)
  • Euronews reported memoria y identidad from John Paul 11 (mentioned 2005)
  • Sir John Wheeler Bennett in his Friends , Enemies and Sovereigns final volume of his autobigraphy , SBN3331811689 notes that as there was no constitution for it being a Crime to have assisted Adolf Hitler to power , that consequently Franz von Papen and Hjalmar Schacht were acquitted . This presumably means that they could not be charged , but that consideration was given to this charge . (mentioned 2005)
  • Ex-Smith College Klemens von Klemperer's German Resistance Against Hitler [[ISBN 0 19 821940 7]] The woman who survived Auschwitz- she's Po v removable -justlike that (mentioned and elsewhere 20050
  • The Roman woman who survived Auschwitz- "she's POV removable -just like that" (mentioned 2005)(mentioned here and unto Jimbo talk 2005)
  • Rolf Hochhuth "Der Stellvertreter" ("The Deuputy") (mentioned 2005
  • "If you know the literature you'll find many jewish authors accusing the church. Just to mention a few: Daniel Goldhagen, Saul Friedländer, Günter Lewy, Moshe Herczl, Frank Baron, Sandor Szenes, Menachem Shelah.."
  • "In a letter to Pius XII Archbishop Johannes de Jong of Utrecht wrote about catholic victims, but explained that there weren't many."
  • The Pontiff in Winter by John Cornwell (mentioned 2005)
  • James Carroll sold many more copies of Constantine's Sword which devotes 100 pages to criticism of Pope Pius XII.
  • Peter Godman is the most recent critic of the Pope with this POV. ISBN 0743245970 and he had even greater access to archives that Cornwell reported to have.
  • the preliminary report of the International Catholic-Jewish Historical Commission (commissioned by the Vatican) which raised 47 questions about the situation. [[8]]
  • "I state ... the volumes, not just a play, including work by Catholic scholars like John Pawlikowski, O.S.M. of Catholic Theological Union in Chicago and Seton Hall professor and diocesan priest John Morley, and Kevin Madigan of Harvard Divinity School and Catholic Theological Union, in addition to ... Carroll and Willis, and many, many authors."
  • "Pius XII and the Second World War: According to the Archives of the Vatican" by Pierre Blet and Lawrence J. Johnson in The Journal of ReligionVol. 81, No. 1 (Jan., 2001), pp. 136-137, a book very sympathetic to Pius XII
  • "Nazis and Christians," Beate Ruhm von Oppen, World Politics, Vol. 21, No. 3. (Apr., 1969), pp. 392-424
  • R.DO'Butler's The Roots of National Socialism, 1941
Retrieved from "https://en.wiki.x.io/w/index.php?title=Talk:Pope_Pius_XII/Archive_9&oldid=789552867"