Talk:Niacin/GA1
GA Review
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Reviewer: Ajpolino (talk · contribs) 22:26, 23 June 2020 (UTC)
Hello! It's great to see another article for a common nutrient at GAN! Give me a few days to find some time, but I'll get to this review asap. Ajpolino (talk) 22:26, 23 June 2020 (UTC)
- Thanks for taking this on. I am currently part-way into replying to the editor who is doing my GA nomination for pantothenic acid, but believe I can manage both in a timely fashion. David notMD (talk) 01:57, 24 June 2020 (UTC)
- I'll post things as I go. Currently on my first read-through (mostly looking for the first criterion, which I think in this case will be most of my comments). Made it through Dietary recommendations. Will get to the rest asap. Apologies, I already have quite a bit to say. The open review time is typically around a week or two, but we're in no rush. We can leave this open as long as you need (also, as you've seen, I'm a bit slow). If you decide to close the review and make changes outside GAN, I still intend to finish this review, just so that there's a full review for you or other editors/reviewers in the future to reference. I hope all is well during these crazy times. All the best, Ajpolino (talk) 16:52, 28 June 2020 (UTC)
- @David notMD: Hi David notMD, just wanted to let you know I'll be traveling in real life over the next week and will have limited access to the internet. Sorry to leave you hanging in the middle of the review. I look forward to going through the second half of the article when I return. I hope you're well! Ajpolino (talk) 13:36, 30 June 2020 (UTC)
- No problem. I will plod through my responses. All well here (at age risk, and so sequestered). David notMD (talk) 16:26, 1 July 2020 (UTC)
- @David notMD: Hi David notMD, just wanted to let you know I'll be traveling in real life over the next week and will have limited access to the internet. Sorry to leave you hanging in the middle of the review. I look forward to going through the second half of the article when I return. I hope you're well! Ajpolino (talk) 13:36, 30 June 2020 (UTC)
- I'll post things as I go. Currently on my first read-through (mostly looking for the first criterion, which I think in this case will be most of my comments). Made it through Dietary recommendations. Will get to the rest asap. Apologies, I already have quite a bit to say. The open review time is typically around a week or two, but we're in no rush. We can leave this open as long as you need (also, as you've seen, I'm a bit slow). If you decide to close the review and make changes outside GAN, I still intend to finish this review, just so that there's a full review for you or other editors/reviewers in the future to reference. I hope all is well during these crazy times. All the best, Ajpolino (talk) 16:52, 28 June 2020 (UTC)
@Ajpolino: I ran a copy violation check and found a very high overlap with a Niacin article at LibreTexts. This is a copy of the Wikipedia article rather than the other way around. I state this because much of what exists at LibreTexts is content that I wrote for the Wikipedia article. LibreTexts does not acknowledge Wikipedia as a source, and does label its article as copyright. I sent an email asking for an explanation. David notMD (talk) 19:14, 1 July 2020 (UTC) https://med.libretexts.org/Courses/Dominican_University/DU_Bio_1550%3A_Nutrition_(LoPresto)_OLD/07%3A_Vitamins/7.3%3A_Water_Soluble_Vitamins/Vitamin_B3_(Niacin)
- UPDATE: LibreTexts confirmed that its content draws on the Wikipedia article, and will add a mention to that effect. David notMD (talk) 19:24, 1 July 2020 (UTC)
@Ajpolino: When you return to this GA review I suggest you start at the beginning again, as I have made major section moves to an order that in my opinion makes better sense. For example, lipid modifying mechanisms moved out of Pharmacology and vitamin deficiency history moved from Deficiency to History. David notMD (talk) 15:21, 2 July 2020 (UTC)
- Still working on addressing your comments/requests. David notMD (talk) 13:35, 6 July 2020 (UTC)
- I have addressed all the points raised in the first phase of the GA review. David notMD (talk) 17:48, 9 July 2020 (UTC)
- Great! Digging myself out of the post-vacation hole at my real-life job. Will get to this asap. Looking forward to the read. Stay well! Ajpolino (talk) 17:49, 9 July 2020 (UTC)
- Alright, starting to go back through as I find time. Feel free to address comments as I go, or wait. Up to you. Ajpolino (talk) 17:57, 13 July 2020 (UTC)
- I will wait. Please ping me when this round is completed. Thanks for collapsing first round of comments and responses. David notMD (talk) 12:29, 14 July 2020 (UTC)
- Alright, starting to go back through as I find time. Feel free to address comments as I go, or wait. Up to you. Ajpolino (talk) 17:57, 13 July 2020 (UTC)
- Great! Digging myself out of the post-vacation hole at my real-life job. Will get to this asap. Looking forward to the read. Stay well! Ajpolino (talk) 17:49, 9 July 2020 (UTC)
- I have addressed all the points raised in the first phase of the GA review. David notMD (talk) 17:48, 9 July 2020 (UTC)
Today (18 July) I will start addressing the second round of comments and recommendations. David notMD (talk) 11:12, 18 July 2020 (UTC)
- A quiet Saturday at last! I'll finish up the second round of review presently. Apologies for the drawn out review. I hope all is well there. Here it's a scorcher; a nice day to be indoors on the web. Ajpolino (talk) 18:09, 18 July 2020 (UTC)
- Much later than expected (real life intruded), but have begun to work through the second set of comments and recommendations. David notMD (talk) 16:22, 23 July 2020 (UTC)
- Hi David notMD. I've marked the nomination as "on hold" for now, which is just to signify to those who watch the GAN queue that I haven't forgotten you. The template says reviews will stay open a week, but we're in no rush here, so take as much time as you need. I've got this on my watchlist, but feel free to ping me back here if I'm slow to respond to anything. I hope all is well! Ajpolino (talk) 03:14, 30 July 2020 (UTC)
- Completing my responses to the second round of comments today. We had two non-COVID family medical emergencies, but of which stabilized. Thank you for your patience. David notMD (talk) 13:43, 7 August 2020 (UTC)
- Your changes look great! I think the article is much improved; I hope you agree. I'll mark this as a pass. More importantly, I hope you and your family are well. All the best. Ajpolino (talk) 18:59, 8 August 2020 (UTC)
- Completing my responses to the second round of comments today. We had two non-COVID family medical emergencies, but of which stabilized. Thank you for your patience. David notMD (talk) 13:43, 7 August 2020 (UTC)
- Hi David notMD. I've marked the nomination as "on hold" for now, which is just to signify to those who watch the GAN queue that I haven't forgotten you. The template says reviews will stay open a week, but we're in no rush here, so take as much time as you need. I've got this on my watchlist, but feel free to ping me back here if I'm slow to respond to anything. I hope all is well! Ajpolino (talk) 03:14, 30 July 2020 (UTC)
- Much later than expected (real life intruded), but have begun to work through the second set of comments and recommendations. David notMD (talk) 16:22, 23 July 2020 (UTC)
1. It is reasonably well written.
First round of comments
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- In general, I still feel the order of sections is somewhat unnatural as-is. I like the order of the lead. It seems like niacin is most importantly an essential nutrient. Secondarily, high-dose niacin is used to reduce certain blood lipids. It seems unnatural to discuss the latter of those (we use niacin sometimes as a medication) before the former (we all need niacin to survive). I think moving sections around would help make the article a more clear and compelling read.
- Moved medical to after vitamin/food. David notMD (talk) 16:21, 23 July 2020 (UTC)
- As lipid-modifying medication>Mechanisms - The beginning of paragraph two was surprising to read since I thought we'd just established this in the preceding paragraph. It reads as if paragraph 1 expands on the mechanism listed as #3 in paragraph 2? Perhaps you could merge the two paragraphs (or just re-order sentences a bit) to make clear that niacin acts by several mechanisms including paragraph 1 (activate NIACR1/2, inhibit cAMP...), and the others enumerated in paragraph 2? If I'm totally misunderstanding how those two paragraphs connect, all the more reason to clarify.
- Paragraphs shortened and merged. David notMD (talk) 16:21, 23 July 2020 (UTC)
- As lipid-modifying medication>Mechanisms - The sentence
Similarly, an Abbott laboratories combination drug (trade name Simcor)...
sticks out; the first half repeats the first sentence of that paragraph. Could you smooth out that paragraph (perhaps you could just replace that sentence with "...and Simcor in February, 2008".)- Paragraph revised to remove all mention of the drug companies by name and additionally shortened to reduce repetition. David notMD (talk) 16:21, 23 July 2020 (UTC)
- As vitamin - Some material here would be better placed in the "Vitamin deficiency" section below (i.e. which form of niacin is used to treat pellagra, doses, how quickly symptoms improve)
- Content moved. David notMD (talk) 13:40, 7 August 2020 (UTC)
- As vitamin - Perhaps the second paragraph of this section (all about niacin as a dietary supplement) would make more sense in the "Source" section, maybe as a new subsection.
- Done.
- Vitamin deficiency - I think this section would be clearer if you flipped the first and second paragraphs (i.e. tell us what pellagra is first, and who gets it second).
- Paragraph order reversed. David notMD (talk) 16:21, 23 July 2020 (UTC)
Minor things:
- As lipid-modifying medication - Is there some reasonable wikilnk target for "mixed dyslipidemia"? As a non-physician the term is sadly meaningless to me.
- "mixed dyslipidemia" deleted even though there is a Wikilink to "dyslipidemia" because that article is not useful. David notMD (talk) 13:40, 7 August 2020 (UTC)
- As lipid-modifying medication>Mechnisms -
...but not in other expected organs such as...
is confusing (personally I had no such expectation). If it's important, perhaps you could clarify? If not, perhaps it could be removed.- Removed. David notMD (talk) 13:40, 7 August 2020 (UTC)
- As lipid-modifying medication>Mechanisms - I assume "apoB" is Apolipoprotein B? If so, either give the full name at first use, or just wikilinik the first use.
- As lipid-modifying medication>Mechanisms - Wikilink "Acyl-CoA:diacylglycerol acyltransferases 2"? DGAT2 currently redirects to Diglyceride acyltransferase.
- Changed to Wikilink to diacylglycerol O-acyltransferase 2 David notMD (talk) 13:40, 7 August 2020 (UTC)
- As lipid-modifying medication>Mechanisms - From a glance at our articles, it looks like NIACR1 and HCA2 are the same thing? If that's true, perhaps you could pick one name and use it throughout.
- NIACR1 changed to HCA2 and NIACR2 changed to HCA3, because, yes, those are the names with Wikipedia articles. David notMD (talk) 16:42, 8 August 2020 (UTC)
- As lipid-modifying medication>Mechanisms - Wikilink catabolism; probably not a word normal-folk know.
- Reworded to not use "catabolism" and a better explanation of why the apolipoprotein relates to HDL-C. David notMD (talk) 16:42, 8 August 2020 (UTC)
- As lipid-modifying medication>Combined with statins - Just lodging my personal opinion that the full day + month + year of each FDA action is unnecessary detail. Now that we're several years out, I think the month + year alone would suffice. You're more than welcome to ignore that opinion if yours differs.
- As lipid-modifying medication>Combined with statins -
agreed to voluntarily
is redundant. Either "agreed to discontinue" or "voluntarily discontinued" would suffice. - As lipid-modifying medicine>Contraindications -
The absence of efficacy... not approved for children
is an odd sentence to read. What statement? Perhaps it could be rephrased as "High-dose niacin has not been tested or approved for use in children under 16 years." - As lipid-modifying medicine>Contraindications>Liver damage -
The changes are reversed if drug treatment is stopped, and usually resolve even when drug intake is continued.
I'm not sure what this means. It sounds like either (1) stopping niacin makes transaminases return to normal; restarting niacin has no effect on transaminases (which is weird), or (2) stopping niacin makes transaminases return to normal; however, continuing if one doesn't stop niacin, transminases eventually return to normal on their own.... If it's (1), that's surprising. But fair enough. If it's (2) could you clarify the way it's written?- Reworded. David notMD (talk) 16:42, 8 August 2020 (UTC)
- Vitamin deficiency -
Compromise of expression of neuro-protective brain-derived...
What does compromise mean here? Elimination? Reduction? Perhaps a different verb would be more clear.- "Compromise of expression" changed to "Reduced synthesis" David notMD (talk) 02:58, 8 August 2020 (UTC)
- Pharmacology>Pharmacodynamics - Would it be equally accurate to say in the first sentence "Niacin and nicotinamide are both converted into the coenzyme NAD in the body"? That would remove some jargon, and NADP is already mentioned in the next sentence.
- Pharmacology>Pharmacodynamics - Is there any reasonably wikilink or alternative word for "non-hypolipidemic"?
- Reworded David notMD (talk) 02:58, 8 August 2020 (UTC)
- Production>Industrial synthesis - I stumble over the words when I read
...and other purposes is of nicotinamide
, namely the "Commercial production... is of nicotinamide" is an unusual sentence construction. Perhaps it could be rephrased (e.g. Nicotinamide, which can be coverted to niacin, is used for...)?- Wording revised. David notMD (talk) 02:58, 8 August 2020 (UTC)
- Preparations>Nicotinamide - Could you wikilink something for "hydrolysed"?
- Word removed. David notMD (talk) 02:58, 8 August 2020 (UTC)
- Preparations>Combination products - Same for "prostaglandin D2"
- Wikilink provided. David notMD (talk) 02:58, 8 August 2020 (UTC)
2. It is factually accurate and verifiable.
- a (reference section): b (citations to reliable sources): c (OR): d (copyvio and plagiarism):
- There are a few reference-related tags: I see a
{{page needed}}
(adverse effects>other),{{citation needed}}
(Pharmacology>pharmacodynamics), and{{Medical citation needed}}
(Chemistry). I haven't looked deeply into any of them, but could you address each please?
- Addressed. Provided refs for two. For third, removed mention of esters, as while chemically possible (there are patents), there are no applications. David notMD (talk) 15:58, 3 July 2020 (UTC)
- Vitamin deficiency>Measuring vitamin status -
For adults, a value of less than 5.8...
According to who? It feels strange to read this in Wikipedia's voice. I assume this is some authority's guideline?- There is a reference for that statement - the US Institute of Medicine DRI chapter for niacin. David notMD (talk) 02:58, 8 August 2020 (UTC)
- Preparations>Combination products - Similar problem. It's weird to read
Thus, so far there is not enough evidence to recommend IHN to treat dyslipidemia
in Wikipedia's voice. Enough evidence for who to recommend it? Us? Perhaps it could be rephrased or directly attributed to some authority?- The IHN section rewritten. David notMD (talk) 22:13, 7 August 2020 (UTC)
3. It is broad in its coverage.
- a (major aspects): b (focused):
First round of comments
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- Definition - This section seems a bit odd as it stands. A definition section should answer the question "What is niacin?" This one seems mostly to answer "How much niacin should I put in my body?".
- More content added, existing refs used. My thinking is that this section foretells the vitamin AND medicine situation. David notMD (talk) 16:51, 7 August 2020 (UTC)
- As lipid-modifying medication>Contraindications - I like how you've clarified why niacin is contraindicated in women who are breastfeeding. Could you do something similar for the first group of contraindications (liver disease, peptic ulcers, arterial bleeding)?
- Text added for the other contraindications, using existing refs. David notMD (talk) 16:51, 7 August 2020 (UTC)
- As vitamin -
Niacin and niacinamide are used for prevention and treatment of pellagra
seems circularly uninformative. It's like opening Food with "Food is used for the prevention of starvation". Instead, it would be clearer to have this section say why we need niacin. We don't need the molecular detail of the pharmacodynamics section here, but just a few sentences would be a great help. Then you could mention that the lack of niacin results in a disease we call pellagra.- "As vitamin" section deleted - content incorporated into Definition and Vitamin deficiency. David notMD (talk) 22:08, 7 August 2020 (UTC)
- Sources>Food fortification - The first sentence
The Food Fortification Initiative...
seems unnecessarily broad and could be chopped to keep the article focused (unless there was some particular point you wanted to make about the FFI).- Sentence removed, ref saved. David notMD (talk) 22:08, 7 August 2020 (UTC)
- Pharmacology>Pharmacokinetics -
For adults a urine 2-pyridone...
is already mentioned in Vitamin deficiency>Measuring vitamin status. I don't think much is gained repeating it here.- Sentence deleted. David notMD (talk) 22:08, 7 August 2020 (UTC)
- Production>Biosynthesis - The first half of this paragraph is great! The second half could probably be trimmed to keep the article focused. The point about the RDAs for tryptophan and protein is interesting, but I'm not sure I get enough context here to really understand the implications (how much of that RDA for tryptophan do we need for other processes vs. how much is truly free to be turned into niacin? Surely dietary tryptophan content differs broadly based on diet, e.g. you mention a maize-based diet...) I appreciate a good back-of-the-envelope calculation, but this may be getting out over our skis a bit... Also the point about pellagra in maize-rich diets was made in the section Vitamin deficiency; I don't think much is gained by re-noting it here.
- All the tryptophan calculations removed. David notMD (talk) 22:08, 7 August 2020 (UTC)
- Preparations - The material at the beginning of the Preparations section has already been mentioned elsewhere (except that the slow release form includes inositol hexanicotinate!); in the interest of flow, focus, and maintainability, I think it'd be best to pick one place for that info.
- Shortened, and weak or inappropriate refs removed. I still prefer to have this as a separate section, and so have left it that way. David notMD (talk) 16:26, 7 August 2020 (UTC)
- Preparations>Combination products - The second paragraph was all already stated above. Typically if you find you need to duplicate info in multiple sections, it indicates sections that should be close together are instead far apart.
- Duplicate material deleted. David notMD (talk) 16:26, 7 August 2020 (UTC)
- History - I always appreciate interesting history, but I think some of the material in the first paragraph ("The term vitamin... name, hence 'vitamin'" at least) can probably be trimmed as a bit of a digression. Perhaps you could wikilink readers to Vitamin#History (where I see you've put in quite a bit of work!) instead.
- Shortened, with a Further information to Vitamin#History David notMD (talk) 16:21, 23 July 2020 (UTC)
- History - Similarly, some of the pellagra information could be streamlined. It should be fleshed out at Pellagra#History rather than at the history section of Niacin.
- Shortened, with a Further information to Pellagra#History David notMD (talk) 13:40, 7 August 2020 (UTC)
4. It follows the neutral point of view policy.
- Fair representation without bias:
5. It is stable.
- No edit wars, etc.:
6. It is illustrated by images and other media, where possible and appropriate.
- a (images are tagged and non-free content have fair use rationales): b (appropriate use with suitable captions):
Overall:
- Pass/Fail:
DYK nomination 14 August
edit- The following is an archived discussion of the DYK nomination of the article below. Please do not modify this page. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as this nomination's talk page, the article's talk page or Wikipedia talk:Did you know), unless there is consensus to re-open the discussion at this page. No further edits should be made to this page.
The result was: promoted by Yoninah (talk) 19:24, 20 August 2020 (UTC)
- ... that niacin is not only a vitamin, but also the first cholesterol-lowering drug, pre-dating statins by decades? From end of History section: "In 1955, Altschul and colleagues described large amounts of niacin as having a lipid-lowering property.[109] As such, niacin is the oldest known lipid-lowering drug.[110] Lovastatin, the first 'statin' drug, was first marketed in 1987.[111]"
Improved to Good Article status by David notMD (talk). Self-nominated at 01:59, 14 August 2020 (UTC).
General: Article is new enough and long enough |
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Policy compliance:
- Adequate sourcing: - Chemistry section does not contain any citations
- Neutral:
- Free of copyright violations, plagiarism, and close paraphrasing:
- Other problems:
Hook: Hook has been verified by provided inline citation |
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QPQ: Done. |
Overall: I cleaned it up just a little by adding "not only." Earwig copyvio detector was down, so I will assume good faith and say it is plagiarism free based on the GA review. Also, this is my first qpq review so let me know if you think I messed up. Bait30 Talk 2 me pls? 06:11, 18 August 2020 (UTC)
- Ref added for Chemistry section. It had been there, then misplaced during some section reordering. During the GA review, Earwig had picked up a major copyright issue, but turns out that website had copied its content from Wikipedia without attribution. The website manager confirmed the situation. David notMD (talk) 12:10, 18 August 2020 (UTC)
- The article is now adequately sourced. Very interesting hook, especially for those interested in science. Bait30 Talk 2 me pls? 16:49, 18 August 2020 (UTC)