Talk:Methodism/Archive 1

Archive 1

Anglicanism Project?

Why is Methodism part of the Anglicanism project? I know that Methodism started out within Anglicanism, but that connection disappeared over 200 years ago. KitHutch 02:20, 5 March 2007 (UTC)

Connection

How does the "connectional" model of organization compare with the episcopalian model described in that article? They sound similar; are they the same, or are there some important differences? Wesley

It is important to note that we are not a connectional people because of biblical or theological or even historical mandates. The evolution of our polity has, however, been a natural response to these elements in our background and they continue to inform and direct our efforts. [1]

If I'm interpreting this correctly, the term is adopted in order to express the fact that Methodist episcopalianism does not claim any biblical, theological or historical mandate for this form of government, and adopts that form of polity for practical reasons (although the Bible, theology and history have had a measure of influence on its development). To make a difference between jus divinum (divine law) episcopalianism, and the Methodist aim to construct a maximal network for pragmatic reasons (which happens to be episcopal), the Methodists appear to prefer the term "connectional" to "episcopalian", as introducing less confusion and implying more completely the principle upon which polity has developed (although the latter is still an accurate term, it appears - with the appropriate qualifiers). Mkmcconn

Wouldn't it be better to call this article "Methodism" rather than "Methodist"? -- Mike Hardy

I was just coming here to ask that. -- Zoe

I'd go for that. We'd have to delete the redirect that's there, to move this page. Right? Mkmcconn

Number of adherents

I came to this article wondering how many adherents the Methodist denominations had, and how these adherents were distributed geographically. The article has no such information. Can someone who knows add it? If this is not the right article to answer these questions, at least there should be a crosslink to the right one. I also wondered how the number of Methodists grew between Wesley's time and the present. Thank you.

Universities

Where does "the most famous of these is the prestigious Ohio Wesleyan University" come from? This seems POV, and I replaced it with "...and altogether there are about twenty universities and colleges named after John Wesley still in existance," unless there is a good source (Also see Wikipedia:Avoid peacock terms).
--Asbestos 17:52, 4 Nov 2004 (UTC)

I've reverted an edit by an anonymous user (who can be identified as User:Ranamim by his IP address) who reverted my edit. The sentence under dispute was originally:

"Numerous originally Methodist institutions of higher education were founded in the United States in the early half of the 19th century. The most famous school among these institutions is the prestigious Ohio Wesleyan University in Delaware, Ohio."

I changed this to

"Numerous originally Methodist institutions of higher education were founded in the United States in the early half of the 19th century, and today altogether there are about twenty universities and colleges named after John Wesley still in existance."

This would seem to me to be more NPOV, but if you wish to discuss, please do so here and not by reverting without signing in.

--Asbestos 15:54, 7 Nov 2004 (UTC)

I feel that the changed sentence is written from a more NPOV standpoint, and is therefore more encyclopedic, and should thus remain in this article. If the anonymous user/Ranamim, or whatever, does not want his edits changed then maybe he should create a website on this topic, because the nature of Wikipedia is that articles will constantly be updated and improved beyond their original content. Rje 03:28, 8 Nov 2004 (UTC)

==

I know I am adding my two cents worth almost four months later, but it seems to me that statement "the most famous of these is the prestigious Ohio Wesleyan University" couldn't be qualified in an objective way, and if it could be, who would make that determination As an OWU grad I can tell you that it was a nice place to be, made lifelong friends, met my husband and a received a good solid education. But prestigious? ;-) Jrossman 02:25, Feb 8, 2005 (UTC)

Methodists and Catholics

Can someone please state the big differences between the two religions; United - (Methodist) & Roman Catholic.

Is it necessary for one to convert to the other for marriage ?

In reply: I can't speak authoritatively, but I think the big difference is the Apostolic Succession. I suspect that the Methodists would recognoze a Catholic marriage, but that the Catholics would not recognize a Methodist marriage. I don't think it's neccessary to convert to Catholicism to marry a Catholic. A preacher or priest should be able to tell you for sure, and would probably not be surprised at the questions.

I am a United Methodist pastor who married a Roman Catholic. Married in a United Methodist Church by a United Methodist pastor, our marriage is not recognized as sacramental by the Roman Catholic Church. I don't believe I would have needed to convert in order to have a Roman Catholic wedding, but I probably would have had to agree to raise the children as Roman Catholics. While I certainly have nothing against Roman Catholicism (and my wife has since become a United Methodist), I wasn't going to make that promise, wanting my children to, of course, be a part of my own church family. A Roman Catholic priest might be able to enlighten you a bit more. KHM03 22:27, 5 Apr 2005 (UTC)

==Einess movement" within Methodism in the Atlanta region, a movement that spread throughoored churches o people in an era when the average Methodistss than 70 members. Hence the reason why I originally inclnificant pastors & preachers; we simply can't list all of them! KHM03 17:04, 19 July 2005 (UTC)

Although Methodist do have a form of Apostolic Succession, it is not one that the Roman Catholic Church recognizes. Besides that there is not much difference. Methodists do not venerate or patronize saints, but we do believe in them. The United Methodist Church, at least, holds many Anglican values still-which are similar to that of the Roman Catholic Church. As for marriage, the UMC recognizes Methodist-Catholic marriage as a sacrament. The Roman Catholic Church may not. Tarheelz123 (talk) 17:33, 12 April 2009 (UTC)

The apostolic succession and belief in "saints" mentioned by Tarheelz123 applies only to American Methodists. British Methodism is not episcopal, though some would like to push it in that direction. Dbfirs 20:47, 12 April 2009 (UTC)

Marriage is NOT considered a sacrament in most Methodist denominations. Methodism only recognizes two sacraments (baptism & communion). KitHutch (talk) 18:21, 13 April 2009 (UTC)

Sorry, I meant rite, not sacrament. Tarheelz123 (talk) 21:32, 13 April 2009 (UTC)

Something which may interest editors of this page

Any help which could be provided would be greatly appreciated. Agriculture 07:35, 16 August 2005 (UTC)

How is this not worth posting?

On Jan 14th 1991 On his television show The 700 Club, Pat Robertson attacked a number of Protestant denominations when he declared: "You say you're supposed to be nice to the Episcopalians and the Presbyterians and the Methodists and this, that, and the other thing. Nonsense. I don't have to be nice to the spirit of the Antichrist."

grazon 05:38, 11 October 2005 (UTC)

It isn't about Methodism. It's about Pat Robertson. Please don't keep trying to insert this in articles about the groups he is attacking. It isn't relevant to those articles. — Mark (Mkmcconn) ** 04:29, 11 October 2005 (UTC)

Pat Robertson isn't just a bum on the streets he's a power broker on the National level and if he's saying things like this those he's smearing need to know it.

grazon 05:39, 11 October 2005 (UTC)

It doesn't matter if he is the Great Wazoo of all wazoos, his comments are not relevant to this article. He has no authority, in Methodism, Presbyterianism, or Episcopalianism. It belongs in an article about him, and is of no consequence to understanding the groups he has attacked. — Mark (Mkmcconn) ** 05:55, 11 October 2005 (UTC)

Persecution of members of a faith is part of their history.

grazon 05:57, 11 October 2005 (UTC)

How about if we wait until persecution actually starts, then. — Mark (Mkmcconn) ** 06:00, 11 October 2005 (UTC)

persecution starts with slander and I'd just as soon let people know the slander is taking place.

grazon 06:04, 11 October 2005 (UTC)

Blogs are good for letting people know about slander taking place. Wikipedia is not a blog, or an indiscriminate collection of information. Please only add content that assists in understanding the topic, info about Mr. Robertson and the things he says belong in the article about him; info about Methodism, etc., belong in their appropriate articles. — Mark (Mkmcconn) ** 06:11, 11 October 2005 (UTC)

Ok Elder mark ;)

BTW any idea where (other than on Pat's page) the quote should go?

grazon 06:15, 11 October 2005 (UTC)

I don't know. It's really not such an important comment as you want it to be. After all, the comment was made 14 years ago. The man has a longstanding reputation for saying more than he means, and he gets plenty of grief about it. — Mark (Mkmcconn) ** 06:26, 11 October 2005 (UTC)

what can I say?

I don't like OUR churches being called supporters of the anti-Christ.

grazon 06:28, 11 October 2005 (UTC)

don't let it get to you - much worse is said of other religions...

Language conventions

Recently User:Saikiri reverted a spelling variation, calling it vandalism in the edit comment. This is inappropriate as it was simply the difference between British and American spelling. Both conventions are regarded as appropriate in Wikipedia, so it is not vandalism. In cases of dispute, Wikipedia policy is that the original convention takes precedence.

The page history reveals that the page was started October 29, 2001 in American English, no other English was used until June 6, 2003, when two words were introduced with British spelling. So strictly speaking, the article should continue in American English. However I note that the section of history which occurred in England seems to be written in British English and that part referring to the American experience seems to be writting in American English. We could consider that an appropriate compromise. Is that agreeable to all? At any rate let's refrain from calling the other spelling covention vandalism. Pollinator 04:51, 1 December 2005 (UTC)

Yeah, you darn Brits. KHM03 12:46, 1 December 2005 (UTC)

Philosophy

[In the study of human knowledge, methodism refers to the epistemological approach where one asks "How do we know?" before "What do we know?" The term appears in Ernest Sosa's seminal essay "The Raft and the Pyramid: Coherence versus Foundations in the Theory of Knowledge," and is to be contrasted with "particularism."

Since the question "How do we know?" does not presuppose that "we know," it is receptive to skepticism. In this way, Sosa claims, Hume no less than Descartes was an epistemological methodist.

See "Particularism."]

This entry is not "unrelated nonsense." It is a matter of coincidence that "methodism" is a word already in use by a religious group: in epistemology, the term distinguishes an important approach to epistemological problems.

If it is possible to start a new page, that would be fine with me. Otherwise, the section will remain on this page. Religion has no more a claim to the term than epistemology.

Here you go: Methodism (philosophy) Tom Harrison ^(talk) 01:49, 4 December 2005 (UTC)

Thanks... but typing in "methodism" neither takes one to a disambiguation page, nor is there any link on this page. Can you rectify this please? Thanks Tom.

Linking error - Oxford

Hi. I would do this myself but I just want to check I'm not being stupid as I am no authority on the topic.

Under 'The Wesleyan Revival' section it mentions some students from Oxford regarding how the term 'Methodist' came into being. The link on Oxford directs to the city of Oxford article. Surely it should direct to the University of Oxford article?

Alright then, it just sounded a bit funny when I read over it. Carl.bunderson 00:10, 8 August 2006 (UTC)

Interesting use of the word "sobering" in an article about methodism which in the UK for many a long year was Teatotal —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 85.210.142.186 (talk • contribs) 15:05, 2 October 2006 (UTC)

Proposed Methodism project

There is now a proposed group to deal specifically with articles relating to Methodism at Wikipedia:WikiProject Council/Proposals#Methodism. Any interested parties would be more than welcome to indicate their interest there. Thank you. John Carter 17:37, 10 April 2007 (UTC)

Aldersgate Street

Can I request that someone with a knowledge of the early history of Methodism take a look at the Aldersgate Street section of the currently-under-construction A1 road (London) article and edit/correct/expand it as appropriate. As (obviously) the location is of key importance in John Wesley's life, I feel it needs a lengthy mention, but as I'm not a Methodist I'm concerned I may have misunderstood exactly what took place, and also that "epiphany" may be an inappropriate term to use in this context — iridescent (talk to me!) 14:51, 13 May 2007 (UTC)

I do not get much understanding about the origin of Methodism from the introduction at the top of this page. The only hint in this introduction that John Wesley had anything to do with Methodism is the indirect passing reference to Methodists as "Wesleys". Perhaps how how Methodism came into existance could be mentioned more clearly in the introduction.
I make this obervation only as a reader; not as one with the current knowledge to add the necessary information. Rwilkin 10:05, 1 June 2007 (UTC)

Lent

Do Methodists observe Lent? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.245.72.95 (talk • contribs)

Yes KitHutch 17:55, 4 June 2007 (UTC)

No, a Catholic friend had to explain it to me. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 172.188.202.95 (talk) 01:18, 7 November 2007 (UTC)

Lent is part of the traditional church year. It IS observed in some Methodist congregations. KitHutch 13:41, 7 November 2007 (UTC)

well, some methodists observe lent —Preceding unsigned comment added by 74.160.68.253 (talk) 20:53, 2 February 2008 (UTC)

I'm a Methodist; my church observes Lent. I believe that most Methodist churches do. Flag-Waving American Patriot (talk) 02:29, 17 February 2009 (UTC)

I believe so, but I think it depends on the denomination of Methodism. The United Methodist Church most deffinetly observes Lent, I am not sure about the Methodist Episcopal Churches thoigh. Tarheelz123 (talk) 17:29, 12 April 2009 (UTC)

Merger proposal

I propose that Homosexuality and Methodism be merged into Methodism. I suppose we could wait long enough to see if the former becomes a bigger article, but I see it as a subheading under methodism. I don't even know if it's important enough to be its own article, as many christian denominations struggle with this, and there are some denominations that are specifically on other sides of the issue. I could be wrong, so share your opinions. Aepoutre 17:36, 13 September 2007 (UTC)

Please see the table on the new page. It includes several denominations. If you want to merge Homosexuality and Methodism, you will need to merge all of the other "Homosexuality and <religion>" pages. To do that, you need the consent of the community working on Homosexuality and Christianity and, arguably, the consent of the communities working on the pages of other denominations. I am not necessarily against the merge or even suggesting it is a bad idea. I am pointing out that your idea has relatively far reaching implications that you need to deal with.LCP 17:40, 13 September 2007 (UTC)

Good to know. I was curious to know if anything like that was going on. We can wait just a little longer to see if anyone comments on the merge. Thanks! Aepoutre 18:07, 13 September 2007 (UTC)

• I'm opposed to the merge; we have a whole series on individual denominations' relationship to the homosexuality question. Although Homosexuality and Methodism is short, it's not too short, and moving it here would be putting undue weight on what is really a minor aspect of Methodism. —Angr 13:32, 14 September 2007 (UTC)

• I'm also opposed to the merge and am in agreement with User:Angr on a philosophical basis, and with User:LCP on a very practical basis. But I appreciate User:Aepoutre's effort to improve both Wiki and those two articles.Afaprof01 21:45, 14 September 2007 (UTC)

Cool, thanks, I'm removing the tags. Aepoutre 22:57, 18 September 2007 (UTC)

• I'm also opposed partly because this is an irrelevance to a serious discussion of Methodism. In any case, Methodism is too big a subject to be covered in one single artice. (see my comment on my vision for the Methodism page) Robert of Ramsor (talk) 14:50, 6 March 2008 (UTC)

Removal of the "Controversies" section

I'm removing the entire controversies section. I'm not against having such a section, but it's content was entirely about proposals within the United Methodist Church to divest from companies that do business with Israel. It may be relevant on the United Methodist Church page, but not here. –RHolton≡– 20:40, 1 February 2008 (UTC)

A more useful contribution would have been tomove this section to the United Methodist Church page. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 160.39.35.32 (talk) 16:04, 20 February 2008 (UTC)

my vision for the Methodism page

Having edited the Lead section (I intend a bit of tidying to shorten it, for example moving one or 2 sentences to the Doctrine section of the article), here is an outline what I would like to see. Putting the subject on a square grid, horizontal and vertical "noughts-and-crosses" dividers include history / present day, Britain / USA / rest of the world; Branches (Weslayan / Primitive / Welsh / Countess of Huntingdon / etc ); as well as belief (doctrine) distinctives. Also comprehensive Book LIst (starting with a couple of dozen books in my study).

So I propose, if the Wikipedia etiquette allows, that the actual sections on the main Methodism page double as the Lead introductions on a series of satelite articles. This is to keep the length down to saomething practical on the main Methodism page. This will not aim to cut existing text, just to organise it (subject to general agreement) in the most logical way we can.

Timetable would be completion by end 2008 with main done by September.

My background includes growing up in a Methodist manse, being a Local Preacher, and running a web site devoted to some aspects of Methodist history. Robert of Ramsor (talk) 15:04, 6 March 2008 (UTC)

Sounds good to me. :) John Carter (talk) 15:22, 6 March 2008 (UTC)

Yeah, it sounds like a good idea. Carl.bunderson (talk) 23:54, 6 March 2008 (UTC)

Proposed Methodism work group

There is now a proposal for a WikiProject group, possibly initially a subproject of Wikipedia:WikiProject Christianity, to deal with articles relating to the Methodist churches at Wikipedia:WikiProject Council/Proposals#Methodism. Anyone interested in taking part in such a group should indicate their interest there. Thank you. John Carter (talk) 15:21, 6 March 2008 (UTC)

note in Lead on armininanism calvinism difference

Please note that this needs moving (later, when the whole article is further revised) from the Lead section to one on Beliefs in the article body, since the Lead is too long. I hope to work on this in April to cut down the number of words in the Lead.

I have changed back to what I said on the distinction between arminianism and calvinism for the following reasons.

My original is

The primary difference is that Arminians interpret the Bible as teaching that the saving work of Jesus Christ is for all people (general atonement} but effective only to those who believe in accordance with the Reformation principles of Grace alone and Faith alone. Calvinists emphasize the deterministic interpretation of Election, that salvation is only for a few decreed by God (limited atonememt) while all others are decreed to be condemned.

end of extract.

A. Jacobus Arminius and John Wesley are fully within Reformation principles and thinking. Note that I did not say Reformed here, partly because some calvinists equate reformed with calvinist ignoring the wider strands of the Reformation. The principles known as the "4 Solas" (or 5 in some lists) are common ground between arminians and calvinists.

B. "Election to damnation" is one of the basic tenets of calvinism (though not part of the TULIP summary), as is "limited atonement". (I think it is the 1659 Particular Baptist Confession, I need to check when I get time.) On calvinist discussion web sites (example, Challies), some refer to unbelievers as "VOWFTD" - "vessels of wrath fitted to destruction". While I would not include this in a Wikipedia article, it can be found by anyone looking at these discussions.

C. As an engineer by training, I see the calvinistic emphasis on the decrees of God from the beginning of eternity as being deterministic, hence including the term.

I therefore maintain that my original (accepting with thanks the edit by KitHutch) is an accurate and factual description and I therefore stand by it as according with Wikipedia principles. But there may be a case for inserting a note that calvinists also accept the Solas.

Robert of Ramsor (talk) 19:03, 10 March 2008 (UTC)

Correction - Baptist Confession is 1689 not 1659. Anyone who reads Section 3, on God's Decree, cannot fail to see either determinism or election to damnation. By way of example, young Andrew Fuller (1754-1815) scandalised the society of Soham Baptist Church for rebuking a fellow member for drunkenness; the pastor excused Fuller for his youth, and argued responsibility for keeping from open sins, and was forced to resign; the man admonished by Fuller "smelt ... the Arminian heresy that a man could be his own keeper in matters of conduct." (Griffiths, "A pocket History of the Baptist Movement", p.109) Yet calvinist Paul Washer is preaching this "arminian heresy" of holy living as vigorously as John Wesley. (I am giving reference for my original statement, not advocating a doctrine.) I need to add the 1689 Confession as a reference to the Methodism article. Robert of Ramsor (talk) 20:05, 10 March 2008 (UTC)

Wesley did not break with the Church of England. When Wesley and Whitefield were trained, Calvinism was almost completely dead in the C of E (see Bebbington, "Evangelicalism in Modern Britain," 36). Whitefield learned Calvinism from American Calvinists, not the 39 Articles. (See Martin, "Evangelicals United," 5). Atterlep (talk) 20:11, 16 October 2009 (UTC) Atterlep (talk) 20:11, 16 October 2009 (UTC)

Books

While we compile a comprehensive books list, I would like to have a place for discussion of some of the books, regarding what we think of them, and why they are more or less important. There is no argument as to the primacy of some of the "standard" texts, such as John Wesley's Journals, Letters, and other books he wrote. In this category, I would also put the Methodist Magazine (Arminian Magazine in Wesley's time, changed to Wesleyan Methodist Magazine in the 1860s - I have Methodist Magazine 1863, Wesleyan Methodist Magazine 1868).

The 2 volume "New History of Methodism" by Townsend, Workman and Eayrs is probably the most comprehensive single work on the origins, history, and spread overseas of Wesleyan Methodism and its later branches, up to publication in 1909. Local detail is supplemented by a large number of other histories of individual Circuits or Churches. Examples I have to hand include the Leek Circuit and the Congleton Circuit (volumes by John Dyson in the 1850s), the Melton Mowbray Circuit, and Bilston and Cheddleton as Churches.

To me, one of the most significant books for understanding Methodism is "Anatomy of a Conversion" by Rev Dr. Philip S Watson (1931-1983) (who was Professor of Systematic Theology and of Philosophy of Religion at Handsworth College when my father was a student there). ISBN 0-310-74991-3 This book is the foreword of "The Message of the Wesleys". It deals with the events leading up to the conversion of John and Charles Wesley in 1738, detailing the part played by Peter Bohler. Then this book analyses the Methodism of the Wesleys, as much as possible in the Wesleys' own words. Philip Watson does a brilliant job in great depth in spite of the brevity. Amongst other things, he exposes, some years before it was published, the errors of Kenneth Cracknell's book "Our Doctrines". (I regretted spending money on this book, Cracknell dismisses doctrines which Watson clearly shows to be the authentic Wesleyan thinking.) Another of Philip Watson's works is a series of talks on Martin Luther, which is very worthy of attention to understand Luther, and incidentally his influence on Methodism via John Wesley. Robert of Ramsor (talk) 00:33, 14 March 2008 (UTC)

You do know that this entry mentions Yoda, right? Should that be corrected? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.183.200.15 (talk) 15:59, 5 May 2008 (UTC)

Confirmation?

Why is there no information or even a reference to the protestant and specifically Methodist, coming of age ceremony and process of confirmation. I was confirmed a Methodist and it is not even included in this entry. It is also not included in protestantism as well, which makes most of these religious articles on Wikipedia suspect. Was it just a simple case of absentmindedness that precluded full coverage of the some of the most important rituals of protestantism or is there a larger agenda that entailed the conscious and deliberate exclusion of a rite that is basic to traditional protestantism? --Stevenmitchell (talk) 15:43, 10 June 2008 (UTC)

I think the reason is that the article deals with Methodism in general, not just with one particular set of practices in one branch of Methodism. To me, the word confirmation sounds specifically Anglican, and I have never come across the term in Methodist circles. This is only a personal view, and traditions vary widely, so it might be common in some Methodist communities. Dbfirs 17:23, 11 June 2008 (UTC)

On the contrary, many Methodist branches (as well as the anglican, catholic, lutheran, etc) do practice confirmation. There should be a section of the confirmation page. Tarheelz123 (talk) 18:12, 13 September 2009 (UTC)

If you go to the article about confirmation, it does mention the Methodist view. KitHutch (talk) 17:32, 11 June 2008 (UTC)

Tonga

With regard to Oceania: Tonga's royal family has been Methodist since their ascension, and a substantial amount of Tongans are Methodist. Their constitution was written by methodist missionaries...Somebody registered please include Tonga! Sincerely - Engaged to a Tongan in Sacramento, CA

moved comment from top of page, to bottom of page, in a new sub-section. jonathon (talk) 17:49, 29 July 2008 (UTC)

Image copyright problem with Image:MethodistGBlogo.gif

The image Image:MethodistGBlogo.gif is used in this article under a claim of fair use, but it does not have an adequate explanation for why it meets the requirements for such images when used here. In particular, for each page the image is used on, it must have an explanation linking to that page which explains why it needs to be used on that page. Please check

• That there is a non-free use rationale on the image's description page for the use in this article.
• That this article is linked to from the image description page.

This is an automated notice by FairuseBot. For assistance on the image use policy, see Wikipedia:Media copyright questions. --05:54, 20 September 2008 (UTC)

Archive 1

Unreferenced Sections

I notice that two "Unreferenced Section" tags have been there for over a year. The facts presented in these paragraphs are adequately covered by the works mentioned in the reference section. Do we need to cite a particular page of a particular book to verify facts that are reported in so many works and are generally accepted as being mainstream history? Dbfirs 21:21, 26 January 2009 (UTC)

It would be better by far to give real citations for these sections. That would be the ideal. On the other hand, the user who added the tags has fewer than 100 contribs, and made no effort whatsoever to explain why any of the info in the sections might be wrong. I think it would be perfectly fine to remove the tags. But again, that doesn't mean we shouldn't reference the sections. carl bunderson (talk) (contributions) 19:48, 29 January 2009 (UTC)

I went ahead and removed the tags. carl bunderson (talk) (contributions) 04:03, 1 February 2009 (UTC)

Primitive Methodism

The American section mentions William Hammet's American Primitive Methodists who evidently pre-date the British Primitive Methodist Church (which joined with Wesleyans etc to form the British Methodist Church in 1932). Are the original American Primitive Methodists still in existence, or is there an offshoot of the British Primitive Methodist Church still functioning in the USA (as implied in the paragraph on British Methodism)? Do current American Primitive Methodists trace their origins to William Hammet, or to Lorenzo Dow, William Clowes and Hugh Bourne? Dbfirs 18:12, 22 July 2009 (UTC)

Improvements to the article

I would like to go over some ideas for improvement. Here are some:

1) The lead

The current lead doesn't really give a good overview of Methodism. It seems to focus most attention on history, particularly early history with John Wesley.

2) History

The sections "Wesleyan Revival" and "Missions to America" should be subsections under a single "History" heading. This history section would need to be expanded such as adding sections on further development of Methodism in and outside of Britain and USA. The spread of Methodism to other countries should be told. Also recent history of Methodism should be addressed to.

3) Methodism in the United States

Perhaps this should be its on article with a summary remaining as a section here?

What does anyone else think? I'm not familiar enough with Methodism to materially contribute to the article, but I'm willing to help organize and copy edit. Ltwin (talk) 23:35, 19 January 2010 (UTC)

I agree with your points on the lead section. It doesn't really serve to explain what methodism is adequately. Perhaps should start with a couple of lines of what it is, and how it is different from other religions/forms of christianity.

38.112.100.2 (talk) 16:53, 9 July 2010 (UTC)

I agree we could say more, but Methodism is diverse and differs little (on average) from other branches of Christianity. Perhaps we could mention the emphasis on Arminianism as opposed to the Anglican emphasis on Calvinism, but this is described later in the article. The phrase "a movement of Christianity" sums up what Methodism is, and if we start describing how one branch of Methodism differs from other denominations, then we are not representing the whole diversity of the movement. Dbfirs 20:09, 9 July 2010 (UTC)

(later) I see that Thomas Paine has changed "a movement of Christianity" to "a Christian denomination", and I don't really disagree except that perhaps we should say "a group of denominations", and to point out that this definition excludes the original meaning of the word as a movement within the Anglican denomination. I'm not sure to what extent the episcopal Methodism of America can be regarded as the same denomination as the non-episcopal British Methodism, but I suppose a broad brush could paint them together. What does anyone else think? Dbfirs 22:00, 4 August 2010 (UTC)

69.251.35.81 (talk) 01:18, 3 May 2011 (UTC)The article mentions Salvation Army as being started by the Methodist. It was actually Edgar Helms who was Methodist who started Goodwill Industries, now know as Goodwill Industries International. See www.Goodwill.org for more information.

Thanks for the link. I hadn't heard of Goodwill Industries. Do they operate only in North America? Dbfirs 07:53, 3 May 2011 (UTC)

Hi, Yes Goodwill Industries operates in North America but also is expanding to international location. The website Goodwill.org should have more information. I worked at Goodwill Industries International a while ago, the company was reaching out to Italy and Asia. Sorry I don't know the details more than that, wasn't my area. Edgar Helms created Goodwill Industries and was a Methodist. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.33.123.25 (talk) 01:20, 23 May 2011 (UTC)

Denomination vs. Movement

Methodism is not a denomination. A denomination is an "identifiable religious body under a common name, structure, and doctrine" according to the Wikipedia article on denominations. The [[United Methodist Church", "Free Methodist Church, and "African Methodist Episcopal Church" are all denominations that follow Methodist doctrine. A movement is a group of denominations that hold similar beliefs and may come from the same source. For example, the Evangelical Lutheran Church in America and the Lutheran Church-Missouri Synod are denominations. Both are part of Lutheranism, a movement within Christianity that can trace its origins back to the 1517 Protestant Reformation led by Martin Luther. KitHutch (talk) 21:27, 5 August 2010 (UTC)

Yes, I agree that "movement" is the better term. I'm pleased to see that it has been changed back. Dbfirs 18:41, 11 September 2010 (UTC)

Greek Orthodox NOT Armenian

The Church is Greek Orthodox in outlook, not "Armenian." Since the Creeds of Ancient Armenia were developed in the context of the Greek Eastern Roman Empire (Byzantium). Also, why is there no mention of the following in this article?

"We believe it would not be right for us to administer either Baptism or the Lord's Supper unless we had a commission so to do from those Bishops whom we apprehend to be in a succession from the Apostles."[63] – Rev. John Wesley, A.D. 1745

In 1763, Greek Orthodox bishop Erasmus of Arcadia, who was visiting London at the time,[64] consecrated Rev. John Wesley a bishop,[65][66] and ordained several Methodist lay preachers as priests, including John Jones.[67][68] In light of Wesley's episcopal consecration, the Methodist Church can lay a claim on apostolic succession, as understood in the traditional sense.[69] Since the Rev. John Wesley ordained and sent forth every Methodist preacher in his day, who preached and baptized and ordained, and since every Methodist preacher who has ever been ordained as a Methodist was ordained in this direct "succession" from Wesley, then the Methodist Church teaches that it has all the direct merits coming from apostolic succession.[70] --Nikoz78 (talk) 16:53, 11 September 2010 (UTC)

Methodism is neither Armenian nor Greek Orthodox in outlook. The article links to "Arminian" which is a theological position (believing that anyone is free to accept God's salvation, as opposed to a Calvinist position that restricts salvation to "the elect"), not a link to any other church. Dbfirs 18:35, 11 September 2010 (UTC)

I understand that, my apologies for not making myself clear. The concept of Free Will is Greek Orthodox in origin ("Byzantine"), not Armenian. See: Greek Orthodox Church, specifically...

"Historically, the term Greek Orthodox has also been used to describe all Eastern Orthodox Churches, since "Greek" in "Greek Orthodox" can refer to the Greek heritage of the Byzantine Empire.[20][21][22] During eight centuries of Christian history most major intellectual, cultural, and social developments in the Christian church took place within the Empire or in the sphere of its influence,[23][24][25] thus most parts of the liturgy, traditions, and practices of the church of Constantinople were adopted by all, and still provide the basic patterns of contemporary Orthodoxy.[26][27][28] However, the appellation "Greek" was abandoned by Slavic and other national orthodox churches in connection with their peoples' national awakenings, from as early as the 10th century A.D.[29][30][31][32][33]" —Preceding unsigned comment added by Nikoz78 (talk • contribs) 15:24, 13 September 2010 (UTC)

Yes, I think the concept of "Free Will" pre-dates Christianity, and even Judaism. I was interested in your link between Methodism and the Orthodox Church, and in your history of Eastern Orthodoxy, and your cite from Apostolic succession. I think this is probably more important to the American Methodist Church, since there are no Methodist bishops in the UK. Dbfirs 15:58, 13 September 2010 (UTC)

Oldest Church

The German Wikipedia [here: http://de.wiki.x.io/wiki/%C3%84gidienkirche_%28Erfurt%29 and here: http://de.wiki.x.io/wiki/Methodistische_und_Wesleyanische_Kirchen] provides the information, that the oldest church (worldwide!) used by Methodists is the Aegidienkirche in Erfurt (Thuringia, Germany). If that's true, it sure is a fact worth mentioning! 194.95.117.68 (talk) 09:36, 2 May 2011 (UTC)

I very much doubt whether this information can be verified in any meaningful way (in fact I'm sure that someone somewhere will be able to prove the statement to be false), so I would oppose adding it to our article. Dbfirs 15:58, 2 May 2011 (UTC)

Contradiction?

"The original Methodist body led by Wesley was known as the Wesleyan Methodist Church." How can this be reconciled with the statement that the Methodists remained within the Churchof England until after John Wesley's death? --rossb (talk) 07:45, 26 June 2011 (UTC)

The whole paragraph was slightly confused. I've made a couple of alterations, but it could probably benefit from further improvement. Dbfirs 18:59, 27 June 2011 (UTC)

Vandalism in History Section - Philippines

I am deeply concerned about the vandalism that is recently attacking this article. I see how some unregistered user tried to delete a history of a new group in the Philippines and if not continued to mutilate information. There must be a move to protect this and the Wikipedia as a whole. Christian Eilers (talk) 23:16, 8 February 2012 (UTC)

There is rather too much detail of the controversy (for a general article on Methodism). Perhaps a reference would help. I'd recommend shortening the paragraph. Dbfirs 12:41, 10 February 2012 (UTC)

Largest mainline Christian denomination in South Africa

The article states "The Methodist Church of Southern Africa is the largest mainline Christian denomination in South Africa". The numbers I have seen refute this. Is there evidence for this claim? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 208.51.23.195 (talk) 13:31, 21 February 2012 (UTC)

It looks cited to me. carl bunderson (talk) (contributions) 18:59, 28 April 2012 (UTC)

File:FrancisAsbury.jpg Nominated for Deletion

An image used in this article, File:FrancisAsbury.jpg, has been nominated for deletion at Wikimedia Commons in the following category: Deletion requests March 2012 What should I do? Don't panic; a discussion will now take place over on Commons about whether to remove the file. This gives you an opportunity to contest the deletion, although please review Commons guidelines before doing so. If the image is non-free then you may need to upload it to Wikipedia (Commons does not allow fair use) If the image isn't freely licensed and there is no fair use rationale then it cannot be uploaded or used. To take part in any discussion, or to review a more detailed deletion rationale please visit the relevant image page (File:FrancisAsbury.jpg) This is Bot placed notification, another user has nominated/tagged the image --CommonsNotificationBot (talk) 17:34, 19 March 2012 (UTC) Why this article deserves praise This article deserves praise for mentioning George Whitfield, as well as the Wesley brothers, as been important in the foundation of Methodism. ACEOREVIVED (talk) 21:19, 14 February 2013 (UTC) Integration of the Central Jurisdiction Someone who is familiar with the details should write a paragraph on the racial integration of the United Methodist Church in the Southern United States. All of the Conferences in the UMC are geographical, and do not overlap. The exception was during the days of racial segregation, when there was a Central Jurisdiction over much of the Southeastern US that was a segregated African-American jurisdiction. It overlapped many all-white conferences in the South, in which the churches, by custom and state law, did not allow blacks to attend. Although the national UMC did not condone racial segregation, it did not enforce integration in the white southern conferences. After segregation in public accommodations was outlawed by the federal Civil Rights Act in the 1960s, it became an embarrassment for there to be separate black and white conferences over the same geographic areas in the South. I don't know the details, but after a protracted struggle the black Central Jurisdiction was somehow merged with the white conferences in its geographic area. There were white ministers who lost their churches because of support for civil rights and integration, and there were white churches that left the UMC and joined the Southern Methodists. Someone who knows more details should tell that story. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Ddoggett002 (talk • contribs) 04:47, 19 March 2013 (UTC) How about mentioning that in the article on the United Methodist Church since it's part of the history of that denomination and it's really part of the history of other Methodist denominations. KitHutch (talk) 11:21, 19 March 2013 (UTC) Yes, it belongs in the article on the United Methodist Church, not here, because it is not part of Methodist history elsewhere in the world. Dbfirs 20:25, 23 June 2013 (UTC) The other Methodists The Methodic school of ancient medicine (Methodics, Methodists, or Methodici, Greek: Μεθοδικοί) took an approach to medicine so similar to modern Methodists' approach to theology that I propose including it in See also. --Pawyilee (talk) 15:37, 26 March 2013 (UTC) let's not do that, it's a coincidence of translation from the Greek. The Methodic school of medicine emphasized the treatment of diseases rather than the history of the individual patient, while the Methodists in religion focused entirely on the individual rather than on generic "sin". Rjensen (talk) 18:58, 26 March 2013 (UTC) Constant addition of linkfarm The article is not the Yellow Pages for every church website for each country in the world. Hazhk has added a link that goes to a website that serves this purpose. --NeilN talk to me 05:36, 22 June 2013 (UTC) Yes, Hazhk's one summary link was useful. I've restored it after deletion (again) by 122.58.208.58 Dbfirs 11:12, 22 June 2013 (UTC) The IP user is being constantly disruptive. He's reinstating mistakes - World Methodist Council, not 'Methodist World Council - and unhelpfully changing links. I'm not going to revert for the nth time because frankly I can't be bothered. If there's some way of warning the user their behaviour is unacceptable, since they've not responded to any talk page messages, then somebody please be my guest. -- Hazhk Talk to me 11:43, 27 June 2013 (UTC) Vandalism The IP user 178.239.50.146 has vandalism this article heavily. I suggest temporarily banning s/he or protecting this page. Jonas Vinther (speak to me!) 21:46, 27 November 2014 (UTC) External links modified Hello fellow Wikipedians, I have just added archive links to 10 external links on Methodism. Please take a moment to review my edit. If necessary, add {{cbignore}} after the link to keep me from modifying it. Alternatively, you can add {{nobots|deny=InternetArchiveBot}} to keep me off the page altogether. I made the following changes: Added archive https://web.archive.org/20150415044113/http://www.bbc.co.uk/religion/religions/christianity/subdivisions/methodist_1.shtml to http://www.bbc.co.uk/religion/religions/christianity/subdivisions/methodist_1.shtml/ Added archive https://web.archive.org/20150815122105/http://www.metegyhaz.hu/ to http://www.metegyhaz.hu/ Added archive https://web.archive.org/20130117013635/http://www.venice.coe.int/docs/2012/CDL-AD(2012)004-e.pdf to http://www.venice.coe.int/docs/2012/CDL-AD(2012)004-e.pdf Added archive https://web.archive.org/20131207130907/http://www.wesley.hu/wesley/foiskola/szervezeti_egysegek/egyeb_szolgaltatasok/kiadvanyok_jegyzetek/ to http://www.wesley.hu/wesley/foiskola/szervezeti_egysegek/egyeb_szolgaltatasok/kiadvanyok_jegyzetek/ Added archive https://web.archive.org/20110514092920/http://cebu.freemethodistchurch.org/aboutus.html to http://cebu.freemethodistchurch.org/aboutus.html Added archive https://web.archive.org/20131203014355/http://www.umcphilippines.org/baguioarea/ to http://www.umcphilippines.org/baguioarea/ Added archive https://web.archive.org/20131203014831/http://www.umcphilippines.org/davaoarea/ to http://www.umcphilippines.org/davaoarea/ Added archive https://web.archive.org/20141202170135/http://www.oikoumene.org/en/member-churches/regions/pacific/fiji/methodist-church-in-fiji-and-rotuma.html to http://www.oikoumene.org/en/member-churches/regions/pacific/fiji/methodist-church-in-fiji-and-rotuma.html Added archive https://web.archive.org/20120618102759/http://www.methodist.org.uk/index.cfm?fuseaction=opentogod.content&cmid=359 to http://www.methodist.org.uk/index.cfm?fuseaction=opentogod.content&cmid=359 Added archive https://web.archive.org/20090109084955/http://www.eni.ch:80/featured/article.php?id=1867 to http://www.eni.ch/featured/article.php?id=1867 When you have finished reviewing my changes, please set the checked parameter below to true to let others know. This message was posted before February 2018. After February 2018, "External links modified" talk page sections are no longer generated or monitored by InternetArchiveBot. No special action is required regarding these talk page notices, other than regular verification using the archive tool instructions below. Editors have permission to delete these "External links modified" talk page sections if they want to de-clutter talk pages, but see the RfC before doing mass systematic removals. This message is updated dynamically through the template {{source check}} (last update: 5 June 2024). If you have discovered URLs which were erroneously considered dead by the bot, you can report them with this tool. If you found an error with any archives or the URLs themselves, you can fix them with this tool. Cheers. —cyberbot IITalk to my owner:Online 05:43, 27 August 2015 (UTC) External links modified Hello fellow Wikipedians, I have just modified 5 external links on Methodism. Please take a moment to review my edit. If you have any questions, or need the bot to ignore the links, or the page altogether, please visit this simple FaQ for additional information. I made the following changes: Added {{dead link}} tag to http://archives.umc.org/interior.asp?mid=258&GID=312&GMOD=VWD This dead link is now restored to life - BobKilcoyne (talk) 04:01, 13 September 2016 (UTC) Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20100615225409/https://gbgm-umc.org/global_news/full_article.cfm?articleid=5032 to http://gbgm-umc.org/global_news/full_article.cfm?articleid=5032 Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20120524022335/https://gbgm-umc.org/global_news/full_article.cfm?articleid=3174 to http://gbgm-umc.org/global_news/full_article.cfm?articleid=3174 Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20130303070603/https://www.vatican.va/roman_curia/pontifical_councils/chrstuni/meth-council-docs/rc_pc_chrstuni_doc_20060723_text-association_en.html to http://www.vatican.va/roman_curia/pontifical_councils/chrstuni/meth-council-docs/rc_pc_chrstuni_doc_20060723_text-association_en.html Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20160303221020/https://www.vatican.va/roman_curia/pontifical_councils/chrstuni/meth-council-docs/rc_pc_chrstuni_doc_20070125_bolen-methodists_en.html to http://www.vatican.va/roman_curia/pontifical_councils/chrstuni/meth-council-docs/rc_pc_chrstuni_doc_20070125_bolen-methodists_en.html Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20140529102827/https://www.vatican.va/roman_curia/pontifical_councils/chrstuni/meth-council-docs/rc_pc_chrstuni_doc_20060604_seoul-report_en.html to http://www.vatican.va/roman_curia/pontifical_councils/chrstuni/meth-council-docs/rc_pc_chrstuni_doc_20060604_seoul-report_en.html When you have finished reviewing my changes, please set the checked parameter below to true or failed to let others know (documentation at {{Sourcecheck}}). This message was posted before February 2018. After February 2018, "External links modified" talk page sections are no longer generated or monitored by InternetArchiveBot. No special action is required regarding these talk page notices, other than regular verification using the archive tool instructions below. Editors have permission to delete these "External links modified" talk page sections if they want to de-clutter talk pages, but see the RfC before doing mass systematic removals. This message is updated dynamically through the template {{source check}} (last update: 5 June 2024). If you have discovered URLs which were erroneously considered dead by the bot, you can report them with this tool. If you found an error with any archives or the URLs themselves, you can fix them with this tool. Cheers.—InternetArchiveBot (Report bug) 22:27, 12 September 2016 (UTC) South America: Methodism, historically is black dress theology. The woman, within methodism, are considered to be inferior. Methodism is one of the forefront theologies that would highly prefer the removal of woman's rights, especially the right to own property. It is considered a fascist theology. Within South America, ripe with all forms and manners of a return to enslavement practices, methodism has become a favorite within certain mixed racial characteristics. Note: None of these characteristics are or have an african orientation, therefore african descendents would not be included. Typically a Southern United States Arab descendent theology, but without much of a hearing by much of anything in South America that is of clear Arabic descend. Perhaps you could state some of those realities within these sections. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 186.92.241.163 (talk) 17:33, 2 June 2017 (UTC) I've no idea what perverted forms of Methodism exists in South America, but your claim has no place in Wikipedia without a very reliable source. Dbfirs 21:20, 2 June 2017 (UTC) External links modified Hello fellow Wikipedians, I have just modified 4 external links on Methodism. Please take a moment to review my edit. If you have any questions, or need the bot to ignore the links, or the page altogether, please visit this simple FaQ for additional information. I made the following changes: Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20080325213036/http://www.umcwfb.org/_aboutus/about_us_ourstory.htm to http://www.umcwfb.org/_ABOUTUS/about_us_ourstory.htm Added {{dead link}} tag to http://www.chiesavaldese.org/pages/storia/dove_viviamo.php Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20120402144829/http://www.wesley.hu/index/altalanos to http://www.wesley.hu/index/altalanos Corrected formatting/usage for http://www.metegyhaz.hu/ Corrected formatting/usage for http://www.venice.coe.int/docs/2012/CDL-AD%282012%29004-e.pdf Added {{dead link}} tag to http://archives.umc.org/interior.asp?ptid=1&mid=7664 When you have finished reviewing my changes, you may follow the instructions on the template below to fix any issues with the URLs. This message was posted before February 2018. After February 2018, "External links modified" talk page sections are no longer generated or monitored by InternetArchiveBot. No special action is required regarding these talk page notices, other than regular verification using the archive tool instructions below. Editors have permission to delete these "External links modified" talk page sections if they want to de-clutter talk pages, but see the RfC before doing mass systematic removals. This message is updated dynamically through the template {{source check}} (last update: 5 June 2024). If you have discovered URLs which were erroneously considered dead by the bot, you can report them with this tool. If you found an error with any archives or the URLs themselves, you can fix them with this tool. Cheers.—InternetArchiveBot (Report bug) 03:06, 9 June 2017 (UTC) External links modified Hello fellow Wikipedians, I have just modified 5 external links on Methodism. Please take a moment to review my edit. If you have any questions, or need the bot to ignore the links, or the page altogether, please visit this simple FaQ for additional information. I made the following changes: Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20121107104512/http://www.methodist.org.uk/media/633296/cpd-vol-2-0912.pdf to http://www.methodist.org.uk/media/633296/cpd-vol-2-0912.pdf Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20110515000925/http://www.umc.org/site/apps/nlnet/content3.aspx?c=lwL4KnN1LtH&b=1723955&ct=7160023 to http://www.umc.org/site/apps/nlnet/content3.aspx?c=lwL4KnN1LtH&b=1723955&ct=7160023 Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20120618102759/http://www.methodist.org.uk/index.cfm?fuseaction=opentogod.content&cmid=359 to http://www.methodist.org.uk/index.cfm?fuseaction=opentogod.content&cmid=359 Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20070612204147/http://www.elca.org/ecumenical/ecumenicaldialogue/unitedmethodist/index.html to http://www.elca.org/ecumenical/ecumenicaldialogue/unitedmethodist/index.html Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20121011195716/http://www.kansasheritage.org/um/time~1.html to http://www.kansasheritage.org/um/time~1.html When you have finished reviewing my changes, you may follow the instructions on the template below to fix any issues with the URLs. This message was posted before February 2018. After February 2018, "External links modified" talk page sections are no longer generated or monitored by InternetArchiveBot. No special action is required regarding these talk page notices, other than regular verification using the archive tool instructions below. Editors have permission to delete these "External links modified" talk page sections if they want to de-clutter talk pages, but see the RfC before doing mass systematic removals. This message is updated dynamically through the template {{source check}} (last update: 5 June 2024). If you have discovered URLs which were erroneously considered dead by the bot, you can report them with this tool. If you found an error with any archives or the URLs themselves, you can fix them with this tool. Cheers.—InternetArchiveBot (Report bug) 14:04, 26 July 2017 (UTC) External links modified (January 2018) Hello fellow Wikipedians, I have just modified 3 external links on Methodism. Please take a moment to review my edit. If you have any questions, or need the bot to ignore the links, or the page altogether, please visit this simple FaQ for additional information. I made the following changes: Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20140324142640/http://www.methodist.org.uk/media/469949/methodist-publishing-catalogue-2013.pdf to http://www.methodist.org.uk/media/469949/methodist-publishing-catalogue-2013.pdf Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20151223190349/http://www.methodist.org.uk/media/1771003/Methodism_in_Numbers_2015.pdf to http://www.methodist.org.uk/media/1771003/Methodism_in_Numbers_2015.pdf Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20131023053809/http://www.metodisti.it/cms/ to http://www.metodisti.it/cms/ Added {{dead link}} tag to http://blog.ifeng.com/article/46027.html When you have finished reviewing my changes, you may follow the instructions on the template below to fix any issues with the URLs. This message was posted before February 2018. After February 2018, "External links modified" talk page sections are no longer generated or monitored by InternetArchiveBot. No special action is required regarding these talk page notices, other than regular verification using the archive tool instructions below. Editors have permission to delete these "External links modified" talk page sections if they want to de-clutter talk pages, but see the RfC before doing mass systematic removals. This message is updated dynamically through the template {{source check}} (last update: 5 June 2024). If you have discovered URLs which were erroneously considered dead by the bot, you can report them with this tool. If you found an error with any archives or the URLs themselves, you can fix them with this tool. Cheers.—InternetArchiveBot (Report bug) 19:15, 26 January 2018 (UTC)