Talk:Međimurska gibanica

merge with Prekmurska gibanica

moved from Talk:Prekmurska gibanica --Joy [shallot] (talk) 09:30, 30 March 2013 (UTC)

(about the merge proposal for Međimurska gibanica, since nobody started a talk section for it)

oppose the recipes are different, & the regions are even in different countries.

the resulting cakes are quite clearly different too, according to the photos.

either ALL the gibanica variants should be together under "gibanica", or they should all be distinct.

no reason why the slovenian gibanica should "absorb" the croatian gibanica. worse, doing so invites "national rivalries" which are better avoided(!)

Lx 121 (talk) 05:51, 3 May 2012 (UTC)

If you actually look at the linked recipe, and read/translate the Croatian text, you can see that the ingredients are effectively identical, only the cheese variant seems to differ, and I wouldn't be surprised if ricotta was actually used in both, or vice versa. The difference between the pictures is that Prekmurska picture shows more layers.

Bearing in mind random people's recipes don't count as reliable sources, but still they can indicate a trend - here's a recipe for prekomurska with cottage cheese [1], so it seems interchangeable with međimurska, and another two for prekmurska with skuta which means curd(?) [2][3]. The same quick google search produced me the Slovenian description that says predpisan iz elaborata zaščite meaning it's pasted from the paper requesting its protection and that one says the cheese part is Skutin nadev containing polnomastna skuta meaning full-fat skuta.[4] One of the above said polumasna skuta meaning half-fat, the other had no such prefix. That all seems largely identical to me. --Joy [shallot] (talk) 07:36, 3 May 2012 (UTC)

Whereas, gibanica lists no ingredients, and the picture only shows pastry and cheese. That seems substantially different from these two variants, certainly more substantial than the difference between the two of them. --Joy [shallot] (talk) 07:23, 3 May 2012 (UTC)

with all due respect; apple pie & apple strudel use the same ingredients, but clearly with VERY different outcomes. the cakes in the photos are also CLEARLY different. & if you read the article texts carefully, the one does not include raisins, & does not specily the cheese or nuts.

you also haven't addressed the difference in "national origins"; which cake should have "primacy"? there is every reason to merge in the other direction, or retitle.

if you want to lump all the gibanica together as "types of", i'm willing to support that. but if you first state that "this one gibanica is different enough to have a separate article", but then insist that "this other gibanica is not different enough to have a separate article", then you lose me.

so: rename, or grand merge? :)

Lx 121 (talk) 23:25, 3 May 2012 (UTC)

But both include raisins. Where do you see a variant which doesn't? I am from Croatia, and yet I don't see any reason to prefer splitting the Croatian form into a separate article. I've also demonstrated how Croatian recipe makers don't seem to distinguish the two. Whereas, none of those recipes seem to demonstrate a similarity with the Serbian gibanica. Where in the sources did you see these lumped together? Pancakes are also locally called the same way to e.g. the U.S. kind, but there are separate articles because of the difference in the content, not simply the name. --Joy [shallot] (talk) 11:46, 4 May 2012 (UTC)

4 points in response

i) the description of m. gibanica in that article's text clearly omits raisins (nor do there appear to be any raisins in the cake's photo), & is non-specific about the types of cheese & nuts to be used. if you google the name of each cake separately, & check the illustrations of each, the 2 types of cake are CLEARLY different from one another, & each cake is clearly of a distinctive "type", as i have described in the text.

ii) if we accept to merge he 2 types, then on what basis do you give primacy to p. gibanica & assign m. gibanica as merely a "variant"? there is no evidence to suggest that one of the 2 "came first", or is "dominant", over the other; therefore any merged article requires a rename & rewrite Northern Balkan dessert gibanica maybe? to me this seems silly, but if we are going to bundle them together, then the article name should reflect this.

iii) "gibanica" is pretty clear as a basic food-recipe concept; a (balkan-cultural-region cuisine) cake/pie (always) made with thin pastry & some type of cheese, often involving other fillings, & all the fillings (including the mandatory cheese) are differentiated into layers, within the pastry. as stated in the "gibanica variant" text which i transferred from this article to Gibanica. it seems fairly clear & self-evident that the "fancier" versions evolved from the "basic" concept.

iv) your use of the example Pancakes, actually serves to illustrate my point. there is one "hub" article about pancakes "in general", & then a plurality of "subsidiary" articles, about different types of pancakes, as merited. the same is done with Strudel. in this case the "hub" article would be gibanica, & p. gibanica & m. gibanica are both "subsidiaries" of it.

if you want to group related subsidiaries, i don't really object to that, as long as the relationship is clear, the text fully explains the like-ness & the differences between them, & the title of the combined article reflects this. but it's not a case where it is appropriate just to "merge" the one into the other, because there is no basis for assuming that one of these cakes is the "more correct" version.

also, any merge requires the inclusion of the article text & links-references, not just moving the photo.

Lx 121 (talk) 02:02, 8 May 2012 (UTC)

oppose --Roberta F. (talk) 00:58, 5 May 2012 (UTC)

1. Regarding raisins, I've shown you some source analysis; the text some random person on Wikipedia wrote or a picture some random person uploaded to Wikimedia Commons can't possibly trump them; it's at most of the same weight (given that coolinarika is a user-submitted recipe site).
2. I don't think the "primacy" of the Prekmurska variant would be necessarily taken as a slight, because sometimes we just have to pick a name, and where no generic name exists, we can't make one up. We did the same at Sutla, Žumberak and Kupa.
3. I can't comment anything useful about gibanica as such - I've literally never seen or eaten it, but I did come in contact with the Prekmurska and Međimurska throughout Croatia. I get your point about the basic to fancy logic, but I'm not necessarily convinced that such an evolution happened without a modicum of sources saying so. The obvious etymology is one source, but a proper one would be better.
4. Regarding pancakes, what I meant to say is that in Croatian we call the local pancakes (let's say they're the Austro-Hungarian kind), the French pancakes, and the U.S. pancakes - palačinke. That's why I'm not convinced that the gibanica obvious etymology is necessarily valid.

--Joy [shallot] (talk) 19:40, 16 May 2012 (UTC)

oppose - Međimurska gibanica has four layers of filling, while prekmurska gibanica has eight. In making of Međimurska gibanica pastry used is puff pastry, in prekmurska used is Shortcrust pastry. As the basis of cheese filling for Međimurska gibanica cottage cheese (svježi kravlji sir) is used, not quark (skuta) - two different kinds of cheese. --Roberta F. (talk) 20:09, 9 June 2012 (UTC)

I agree that this difference can preclude the move, though you did not support it by references - can you please list a source that confirms the prevalence of non-skuta cheese in Međimurska gibanica? --Joy [shallot] (talk) 08:01, 17 June 2012 (UTC)

As for ingredients, there are dozens of recipes for different desserts which use exactly the same ingredients but the final result are different types of foods or dishes. In case of Prekmurska and Međimurska gibanica both ingredients and recipes differ, so Joy's request to connect these two articles is completely and utterly unjustified. That would be the same as calling PC and Mac the same, as both use same processor and much of other electronic components. Mac IS personal computer, but Steve Jobs would turn in grave if somebody dared to name PC and Mac as same product. --Roberta F. (talk) 20:09, 9 June 2012 (UTC)

You're extrapolating this into absurdity; you're not actually addressing the concern that I raised - that people who write recipes seem to freely interchange these two without much prejudice. --Joy [shallot] (talk) 08:01, 17 June 2012 (UTC)

oppose. If someone wishes to imagine it same as scientific classification of plants; and simply align birch species of Betula platyphylla and Betula pendula. They are both "betula", for some sloppy viewers they would "act" the same. The same issue is with gibanica - Prekmurska and Međimurska. And finally, there is a term, known as diversity. Please consider it. Žiga (talk) 07:54, 10 June 2012 (UTC)

Conclusion - no merge

Seems to me that user ignorant about cakes who himself admits his ignorance:

• I can't comment anything useful about gibanica as such - I've literally never seen or eaten it, but I did come in contact with the Prekmurska and Međimurska throughout Croatia.

proposed merge out of that ignorance, but arguments has shown there is no rationale to do it. Please correct me if I wrote anything wrong. SpeedyGonsales 18:03, 16 June 2012 (UTC)

Are you trying to intentionally make a stupid personal attack here or what? :) I said I didn't see the Serbian gibanica, not these two. --Joy [shallot] (talk) 07:58, 17 June 2012 (UTC)

I suppose this and this can be described as ignorance, if not, I'm very sorry, I only wanted to say that if admin lacks a knowledge of subject he/she should wait for topic expert to weigh in. En wiki already has loads of crap articles, but deleting meaningful ones does not help the overall quality. That probably count as "what". SpeedyGonsales 16:28, 20 August 2012 (UTC)

Again, nobody proposed the deletion of anything meaningful.

So in conclusion, several people had the time to share their largely anecdotal opinion that the two are distinct, but nobody had the time to actually document it properly in the article. After several months, the cleanup tag is still outstanding. *facepalm*

In the meantime, I think I found another difference in the recipes in real life: Međimurska is made of vučeno tijesto[5] while Prekmurska is made of krho testo[6]. So short pastry vs. phyllo.

Now if any of you experts want to take the opportunity to add that and reference it to a reliable sources, that would actually be meaningful and helpful. --Joy [shallot] (talk) 09:28, 30 March 2013 (UTC)

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