Talk:May 24, 1993, PKK attack

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Proposed move

This was a massacre, not an ambush. The article title ought to reflect that. Konli17 (talk) 12:35, 5 November 2020 (UTC)

Why not Bingöl massacre?????Shadow4dark (talk) 03:43, 6 November 2020 (UTC)

Requested move 31 August 2021

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

The result of the move request was: moved. Excluding a blocked sock, there's consensus that the current title is poor. There are some disagreements on the proper date formatting for the title, this close doesn't preclude another RM immediately to work that out. (closed by non-admin page mover) Elli (talk | contribs) 19:44, 7 September 2021 (UTC)

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Bingöl massacre → May 24, 1993 PKK ambush – Reverting from a previous undiscussed title change that seems to be just POV pushing. There are no reliable sources that use "massacre", in fact the "U.S. DEPARTMENT OF STATE" source is being overruled by a pro-turkish media newspaper mentioning it once within the article in a sensational way. Current title is misleading and violates WP:Reliability TataofTata (talk) 09:46, 31 August 2021 (UTC)

After looking through the versions, this edit seems to be the last known good point to revert to, before the pov pushing/vandalism begins by editor User:Saotura (banned for POV pushing), also User:Konli17, (banned as well) makes a minor edit to change the title, possibly based off content. Odd within minute edits and conversations by both.

Secondly, the sources talk about an attack or ambush on Turkish forces. There are no sources that states or uses "Bingöl massacre", it seems to be made up, violating WP:NOR, WP:V --TataofTata (talk) 13:12, 31 August 2021 (UTC)

attack sounds me better because it was not really an ambush. They just executed recruits and civils. Shadow4dark (talk) 16:19, 31 August 2021 (UTC)

As per some sources Turkish forces were using unmarked/civilian transportation to avoid being noticed by the PKK on some of these roads, heading to the "veteran units", they were unexpectedly attacked which I guess why it was titled as an ambush originally. But I agree using "attack" seems most accurate/appropriate (as more sources use it). --TataofTata (talk) 16:59, 2 September 2021 (UTC)

• Support. "Massacre" is a word to watch/avoid without an overwhelming WP:COMMONNAME argument. This incident appears obscure enough in English media that there is no English common name - the only things I see coming up are https://www.nytimes.com/1993/05/26/world/turks-say-kurds-killed-33-troops.html which does not use "massacre", and https://www.washingtonpost.com/archive/politics/1993/06/27/kurdish-violence-rises-as-hopes-for-peace-fall/2e4a0348-d1b1-4388-ad8a-b30947b44c51/ written a month or so later that does use "massacre". I'd put slightly more weight on the later source, but a 50/50 split isn't sufficient to use "massacre" in the title IMO. SnowFire (talk) 22:20, 31 August 2021 (UTC)

Thanks for the additional sources. I tried to compile as much sources I could find to accurately title it and also account for what happened. The incident on the turkish wikipedia also calls it an "attack" (not that this is a source, only mentioning as comparison to English version).

• 'As mentioned the above US department report calls it an attack (search "Bingol-Elazig highway").
• 'Blood and Belief: The PKK and the Kurdish Fight for Independence', page 214 refers to it as an operation, but also as an attack. [1]
• A Today's Zaman article refers to it as an attack [2]
• State run/sponsored turkish news agency AA refers to it as an attack - [3]
• New York Times source you provided calls it an ambush, it also has the most detailed account of how many were taken hostage - [4]
• The Washington Post you provided also refers to it as an operation and also as a massacre later. [5]
• Other sources, including Turkey's government source simply states killed or "martyred" [6] [7]
• A hurriyet source calls it killing [8], while this [9] source calls it a "PKK massacre".
• I was unable to verify the "Türkiye'nin asker sorunu: ey asker, siyasete karışma!" source [10]

I think I can safely say calling this a "massacre" is inappropriate and was a unjust change. --TataofTata (talk) 16:59, 2 September 2021 (UTC)

TataofTata noted that he/she couldn't verify the citation of Hasan Cemal's book. The link he/she shared opens a book of an author named Hasan Bulent Kahraman, and not Hasan Cemal's book. I also do not have access to the book, but an excerpt where Hasan Cemal calls the incident as massacre can be found in one of his online articles in 1993 Nisan ayi Bekaa'da Apo'yla sohbet wherein he stated after conveying his interview with Abdullah Ocalan that "Bir ay sonra 1993'ün Mayıs ayında Bingöl'den katliam haberi gelmişti. PKK yol kesmiş, bir otobüsü durdurup içindeki 33 silahsız ve sivil giyinmiş askeri indirip kurşuna dizmişti.". Its rough translation of the part is that "has been news of a massacre (katliam) from Bingöl in May of 1993."

TataofTata put forward that the Turkish Wikipedia notes the incident as an attack by stating that "The incident on the turkish wikipedia also calls it an "attack"". The article calls the incident as an "attack" as well as "massacre" in the first sentence of the text at the time of writing. Herpes-Free-Engineer (talk) 13:24, 5 September 2021 (UTC)

• Support as "May 24, 1993 PKK attack" wich is supported by most sources and most appropriate name. Massacre or ambush seens me as pov pushing. Shadow4dark (talk) 17:24, 2 September 2021 (UTC)
• Support as "24 May 1993 PKK attack" I believe i having same argument as Shadow4dark which is reasonable, but for date format, DMY feels to be more appropriate. 182.1.233.25 (talk) 01:49, 3 September 2021 (UTC)
• Support. As mentioned by SnowFire, "massacre" is only acceptable in a title if it can be demonstrated to be the commonname, and it can not. The proposed name seems like a reasonable NPOV alternative. I don't believe the "massacre" name is a sufficiently common name to be used even as an alt-title, but it might be the case in Turkish sources. BilledMammal (talk) 10:49, 5 September 2021 (UTC)
• Oppose: I think the term massacre fulfils various aspects of this incident; therefore, the mere term attack downgrades the scope and perception of the incident, which is different from other PKK attacks. Massacre: "the killing of multiple individuals and is usually considered to be morally unacceptable, especially when perpetrated by a group of political actors against defenseless victims." Also, the following books have been using the massacre terminology:

Barkey, H. J., (2000). Turkey's Kurdish Question. p. 233. (Thereat, the author directed the readers to p. 41 where the incident had been elaborated.)

Rugman, J. & ‎Hutchings, R. (2001). Ataturk's Children: Turkey and the Kurds. p. 53: "The army stepped up its counter - insurgency , and three hundred deaths were reported in the fortnight of clashes which followed the Bingöl massacre."

Spencer, W. (1994). The Middle East. p. 229.: "The Bingol massacre was undoubtedly the spark that set off the army's crackdown..."

Heper, M. (2007). The State and the Kurds in Turkey: The Question of Assimilation. p. 142: (Doğan Güreş conveys his views during an interview) "Yet, with the Bingöl massacre by the PKK, my joy came to an abrupt end."

The Economist. (1994). Country Report Turkey. n.d.: "The Bingol massacre prompted the government to postpone the implementation of the partial amnesty, and unleashed the army in an all - out campaign against..." Herpes-Free-Engineer (talk) 11:22, 5 September 2021 (UTC)

Comment Just to clarify; In The State and the Kurds in Turkey (to be clear) "Doğan Güreş" is a Turkish military general - so I do not think that constitutes as a scholarly source using the terminology. Factors here are the Turkish military is attacking the PKK and also moving forces using civilian transportation in the same region, while not providing any protection (armed protection or even arming them). From a military point of view, it looks like either it was their gamble or doing it on purpose and considering the PKK is a guerrilla force I assume they were not going to just wave them past the road until they get to a garrison and pick up a weapon, especially during active fighting. Similar to the French Resistance, I do not believe they can be accused of massacre while killing unarmed Nazi's. Some of the sources say the PKK took POW's which the Turkish supposedly rescue later signals not being indiscriminate while objectively trying to damage the turkish military as much as possible.

Looking at all the sources presented, I still view this to be attack as most appropriate, while making sure bingol massacre is mentioned as being referred. --TataofTata (talk) 18:24, 7 September 2021 (UTC)

• Noting that Herpes-Free-Engineer has been checkuser blocked as a sockpuppet of BlueSisyphus. --Malcolmxl5 (talk) 16:24, 5 September 2021 (UTC)

@Malcolmxl5: Thanks. Although, not sure what this means now, does his/her vote still count? I assume his contribution stays as they do seem to be legit (I think). Both user accounts mentioned are not visible in the change logs so I do not see any negative affect.--TataofTata (talk) 13:13, 6 September 2021 (UTC)

I leave it as a note for the closing administrator to consider. --Malcolmxl5 (talk) 19:19, 7 September 2021 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.