Talk:List of people associated with Balliol College, Oxford

Principles for inclusion

Anybody associated with Balliol College who has a Wikipedia page can be listed on this page. This page differs from the automated list of Balliol College alums in two respects:

• the list is indexed into meaningful categories of endeavour and furthermore listed in chronological order
• the list includes some people who were not matriculated e.g. a refugee

The previous approach discriminated in favour of notability but this was difficult to sustain. Notability is contestable and not all the relevant personal information is available. A more objective approach is to make an index based upon the Wiki pages of the relevant individuals (originally suggested by "Sir Paul" in 2007). There are now vastly more names on Wiki than when this project started 18 years ago. The alumni list is automatically generated from a tag on the individual's page indicating they went to Balliol. This automatically generated list has become the natural place from which to obtain entries into this indexed list.

As far as I am aware, other Oxford colleges do not have an indexed list based upon wiki entries. This is not surprising as it takes a lot of work for an outcome which offers just another way of finding out who passed through the college. However, the case for an indexed list of alumni is that it provides insights into academic life through the decades.

The categories have been created neither from the list of subjects taught nor any standard template. The categories arise from the particular pursuits and passions of the alums. Who would have thought there were so many poets or medievalists? The designation of the categories is somewhat fuzzy at the edges and it is quite possible for subsequent rearrangements as more alums are included.

The categories speak to a coherence in how people at Balliol nutured their interests. Groups of undergraduates would have spent their time in the Junior Common Room or the Lindsay Bar discussing politics or philosophy or economics etc late into the night. Postgraduates would have congregated at Holywell Manor, Jowett Walk, the Masters Field. They would have formed personal and intellectual attachments. One can envisage an academic family tree emerging one day.

The chronological perspective within each category shows how intellectual focus and fashion changes over time. In the 19th Century, the philosophers would be reading Idealism - whereas current philosophers might be grappling with the ethics of social media.

Some alums can fall into more than one category. A historian could be a Member of Parliament or a lawyer. For example, T H Tylor was a blind chess player who taught Jurisprudence for 40 years. He has been placed in the chess category not because of any deficits as a lawyer but because he was an exceptional chess player and he would adorn the small list of chess players. This can be reversed when the balance of interest changes.

To give an idea of scale, currently there are around 425 names indexed on this page. This compares with 1,708 listed as Balliol Alumni on wikipedia. According to the College, there are around 8,000 alumni. So already there is a 21% chance of being "wiki-notable" if you go to Balliol.

Information within Listings

Name Link

The starting point is the link to the individual on Wikipedia. The name may be found on the automatically generated list of Balliol alumni. Not all alumni are designated as such, so if you find one, please edit the relevant wiki page regarding education.

Title Prefix

Given that Oxford is in England with all its traditions, it seems relevant to include honours before the name e.g. Sir. Some name links are already prefixed with the title but not all, and it is worth checking to be consistent. It is a mark of esteem from society, or at least it was. At some point it could be dropped although it still will be relevant for older alums. There are an enormous number of professors as well as other honours. In order to keep the clutter down, these are not included on this page. They are easy enough to identify on the relevant individual pages.

Matriculation Year

Vital for chronology is to provide a matriculation year i.e. when the person first registered as a student or became a member of staff. Sometimes this information is found on the person's wiki page. However, more often than not, it is necessary to estimate the year. As a rule of thumb, choose the year in which they are 18 by September. If the birth year is 1940, then estimate the matriculation as taking place in 1958. To make it clear that this is an estimate, place the date in brackets (1958). Complications arise when dealing with those who would have joined during the first or second world wars. The college was running at skeleton level as most young men were supporting the war effort in some way. Some of them came briefly to Oxford and then returned after the war. Some came after the war for the accelerated BA courses - two years instead of three. Women undergraduates did not arrive until 1979. Some academic traditions use the date of graduation e.g. USA. Occasionally this has been inserted in error. The major remaining task is to convert these parenthesised dates into confirmed dates.

Balliol Archive

Biographical information about individual old members of Balliol can be found from a number of different sources. The College Archivist has a helpful overview. The College Archives contain information only about deceased members of Balliol. The College is not able to provide any personal information about any living Old Member to any third party.

Title Suffix

It is important to distinguish between students and staff. Hence college Masters and Fellows should be noted after the matriculation date as Master, Fellow. This reflects the academic prowess of the individual as befits the index of an academic institution. By the same token, we note whether someone is a Rhodes Scholar or a visiting Eastman Professor. Both of these categories are administered by the Rhodes Trust on which website the details of the individuals can be found. We should also recognise three exceptional honours: the recipients of the Nobel Prize or a Fields Medal; receiving the Order of Merit from the monarch; and receiving professional recognition as a Fellow of the Royal Society (FRS) or FRSE for Scotland in respect of STEM subjects and as a Fellow of the British Academy (FBA) for the humanities.

Specialism

Ultimately, we we all be known for just one thing. We are lucky if an alum is already best known for one thing - a best selling book or an idea. This can be provided in parentheses: "The Prisoner of Zenda", "the rule of law". If the book has a date, then include it afterwards. More often we must squeeze an octopus into an ice-cream cone. This can be tricky but it is necessary to keep the list readable and manageable. If you don't agree with a one-word description, then feel free to update it.

--JPF (talk) 15:33, 24 July 2024 (UTC)

Balliol alumni are often talented and to indulge all the high achievers could crowd this page to the point of hubris. There should be some principles for determining inclusion on this page and suggestions are welcome. I propose that those included should be notable or exceptional in some way. Whilst much can be achieved early in life, the temptation should be resisted to place individuals of the wikipedia generation upon a pedestal until the passage of time provides proof. I suggest that the following taken individually are insufficient grounds for inclusion:

• a current member of the academic staff
• a recently published book

JPF 23:49, 25 January 2006 (UTC)

Some of the recent entries seem difficult to justify - William Wallace a philosopher?; non-students; red entries; graduates with promising but unproven contributions etc. - a more objective approach needs to be found.. JPF 10:10, 11 December 2006 (UTC)

If the individual has been judged worthy of inclusion in Wikipedia, s/he should be worth including in Wikipedia's List of Balliol College people. Sir Paul 16:52, 9 October 2007 (UTC)

The William Waldegrave article claims that he attended Corpus Christi, not Balliol – is his entry here an error, or does it refer to an ancestor? Or is the Waldegrave article wrong? Ronald Collinson 00:05, 26 February 2006 (UTC)

It seems the entry here is wrong. I'll delete it. JPF 00:54, 26 February 2006 (UTC)

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Fictional alumni

Shouldn't Lord Peter Wimsey be in this list somewhere? --SarekOfVulcan (talk) 17:09, 10 December 2010 (UTC)

I have deleted Humphrey Appleby as his wiki page says he was a fellow of the fictional Baillie College (with a Dean rather than a Master). But I have added Trollope's Rev Arabin who although a fellow of the fictional (and rich) Lazarus College was described as a graduate of Balliol. Thomas Peardew (talk) 13:08, 18 December 2014 (UTC)

More discrimination under Mathematics, Science and Technology

1. I added Atul Gawande (1987) to the list. Balliol recognises his achievements.

2. Would it not be helpful to be a bit more discriminating, rather than lump anyone of repute in mathematics, medicine, science or technology under the same heading? Maybe sub-headings of Medicine, Science, Mathematics, Technology would suffice? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 129.67.115.253 (talk) 00:28, 4 June 2011 (UTC)

Yes, done 13 years after the request. JPF (talk) 10:15, 10 July 2024 (UTC)

Classical and Other Scholars

It is odd that there is no mention of scholars such as Cyril Bailey, Edgar Lobel, R.A.B.Mynors, Sir John Beazley, William S. Watt, K.J. Dover, R.G.M.Nisbet, to name but a few, of probably scores, that I can think of off the top of my head, and some among the highest in their field of all time. There must be modern language scholars also. Seadowns (talk) 15:07, 3 May 2021 (UTC)

Hi Seadowns, feel free to add them under the appropriate subheading as long as they have a Wikipedia article! These lists unfortunately tend to be very incomplete, probably in part due to them somewhat replicating categories. Best, 15 (talk) 15:16, 3 May 2021 (UTC)

I have added some, including Scott of Liddell and Scott. Also Peter May among the unsuccessful applicants, rejected because he was a public schoolboy and good at games, two categories much disliked by the Master, Sandie Lindsay.   Seadowns (talk) 12:58, 9 May 2021 (UTC)

Requested move 4 March 2024

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

The result of the move request was: moved. Consensus for the proposed alternative naming pattern is clear; the initially proposed naming pattern will also be redirected there. BD2412 T 00:36, 14 March 2024 (UTC)

---

• List of Balliol College, Oxford people → List of Balliol College, Oxford, people
• List of Balliol College, Oxford academics → List of Balliol College, Oxford, academics
• List of Brasenose College, Oxford people → List of Brasenose College, Oxford, people
• List of Corpus Christi College, Oxford people → List of Corpus Christi College, Oxford, people
• List of Lincoln College, Oxford people → List of Lincoln College, Oxford, people
• List of Lady Margaret Hall, Oxford people → List of Lady Margaret Hall, Oxford, people
• List of New College, Oxford people → List of New College, Oxford, people
• List of Nuffield College, Oxford people → List of Nuffield College, Oxford, people
• List of St Anne's College, Oxford people → List of St Anne's College, Oxford, people
• List of Trinity College, Oxford people → List of Trinity College, Oxford, people
• List of Wadham College, Oxford people → List of Wadham College, Oxford, people

– Per MOS:GEOCOMMA, a closing comma is missing in all these article names. This naming pattern might appear a bit clunky to some (although including the comma in similar constructs is getting increased usage in [print] media), so there is an alternative, shown below. HandsomeFella (talk) 11:19, 4 March 2024 (UTC)

Alternative naming pattern

Interestingly, the corresponding list articles for the University of Cambridge follow another pattern: List of alumni of [Foo] College, Cambridge.

So, alternative targets for the proposed moves above would then be:

• List of people associated with Balliol College, Oxford
• List of academics associated with Balliol College, Oxford
• List of people associated with Brasenose College, Oxford
• List of people associated with Corpus Christi College, Oxford
• List of people associated with Lincoln College, Oxford
• List of people associated with Lady Margaret Hall, Oxford
• List of people associated with New College, Oxford
• List of people associated with Nuffield College, Oxford
• List of people associated with St Anne's College, Oxford
• List of people associated with Trinity College, Oxford
• List of people associated with Wadham College, Oxford

There are indeed four articles that already follow the proposed naming pattern:

• List of Oriel College, Oxford, people
• List of Pembroke College, Oxford, people
• List of Somerville College, Oxford, people
• List of Wolfson College, Oxford, people

If the outcome of the discussion is that the articles should be moved to the alternative naming pattern, these four articles should be moved too.

For easy dissemination of responses, I have created headings below.

General discussion

Support

Specify below which of the proposed naming patterns you support.

Support the move as proposed

Support a move to the alternative naming pattern mentioned

• Support, this is a much less clunky format that flows better. Timrollpickering (talk) 10:35, 4 March 2024 (UTC)
• Support. We generally try to avoid having to include offsetting commas in titles, because it just looks really awkward. See for example discussions at Talk:Rochester metropolitan area, New York.  — Amakuru (talk) 16:53, 4 March 2024 (UTC)
• Support. Much less awkward. Walrasiad (talk) 18:57, 4 March 2024 (UTC) - switch to either
• Support this. YorkshireExpat (talk) 20:16, 4 March 2024 (UTC)
• Support. Much the best construction. -- Necrothesp (talk) 14:04, 5 March 2024 (UTC)
• Support. Much better option. Jonathan A Jones (talk) 12:20, 9 March 2024 (UTC)
• Support. Less clunky. Switch from "either". HandsomeFella (talk) 18:37, 10 March 2024 (UTC)
• Support, but the one for academics would be less clunky again if it were List of academics of Balliol College, Oxford. Ham II (talk) 19:58, 11 March 2024 (UTC)

  There's List of academics at Queen Mary University of London and List of academics of University of Wales, Lampeter. Should it be "at [Foo] University" or "of [Foo] University"? HandsomeFella (talk) 11:00, 12 March 2024 (UTC)

  Good question. The categories for those ones are at Category:Academics of Queen Mary University of London and Category:Academics of the University of Wales, Lampeter. That is at least consistent with "alumni of". I reckon "of" for all of them. Ham II (talk) 16:42, 12 March 2024 (UTC)

Support a move to either of the two naming patterns mentioned

• Support (as proposer) a move to either naming pattern mentioned. HandsomeFella (talk) 09:58, 4 March 2024 (UTC) HandsomeFella Switch to the alternative format.
• Support either per nom. —⁠ ⁠BarrelProof (talk) 18:23, 4 March 2024 (UTC)
• Support. Much less awkward. Prefer "people associated with" after I realized not all listed are necessarily graduates. Walrasiad (talk) 18:57, 4 March 2024 (UTC)

Support a move, but to another naming pattern

Oppose

Notes

Note: WikiProject Lists has been notified of this discussion. Vanderwaalforces (talk) 11:48, 4 March 2024 (UTC)

Note: WikiProject University of Oxford has been notified of this discussion. Vanderwaalforces (talk) 11:48, 4 March 2024 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Balliol Olympians

The linkas below need checking.

• 1904 Wilfrid Johnson, lacrosse
• 1906 William H. Grenfell (Lord Desborough), fencing; President of the London 1908 Games
• 1908 Frederick S. Kelly, rowing
• 1924 Alan Valentine, rugby
• 1924 Bill Stevenson, athletics, representing the USA
• 1924 David Johnson, running, representing Canada
• 1924 David Moffatt (F), athletics
• 1928 HM Olav V of Norway, sailing
• 1928 Wilfred Kalaugher, athletics
• 1932 Norwood Hallowell, athletics
• 1956 Eng-Liang Tang, water polo
• 1956 Richard Wheadon, rowing
• 1956, 1960, 1964 Graham Bond, gymnastics, representing Australia
• 1964 Jonathan Hutton, athletics (pole vault)
• 1964, 1968, 1972 HM Harald V of Norway, sailing
• 1992, 2000 Matthew Syed, table tennis
• 2004, 2008 Justin Frishberg, wheelchair rugby
• 2004, 2008, 2012 Caryn Davies, rowing, representing the US

From the Balliol webs site.

All the best: Rich Farmbrough 17:57, 14 August 2024 (UTC).