Talk:Kurmi/Archive 2

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Ambedkar fringe theorist on caste in India

Sitush your statement Ambedkar was a fringe theorist, shows how knowledgeable you are on the subject of caste in India. Remember you aren't just any other editor but one who has been (my anecdotal understanding, may be wrong) heavily editing Caste articles. I have no more to add. It is a poor reflection on Wikipedia.Yogesh Khandke (talk) 17:46, 14 July 2011 (UTC)

I did not say that Ambedkar was a fringe theorist. I said that the source regards his 1946 theory as being a fringe theory, and that his 1948 work was contradictory to it. I make no personal judgement on the matter. Fringe or otherwise, you have to agree that the source is of little use for this article. Ambedkar's own writings may be of some use, if they mention Kurmi in any useful way. - Sitush (talk) 17:49, 14 July 2011 (UTC)

1896

(1)We have a reliable source that every one agrees says that post (since) 1896, Kurmis according to a Governor's decree, were no longer to be considered as depressed classes. (2)There is another reliable source that translates Shudra for us as depressed classes. (3)So we have a verifiable statement which can be used as a postulate Since 1896, Kurmis were considered separate from Depressed Classes or Shudras. (4)Now that we have this postulate, why does its spirit not permeate the article? (5)Each of the staments (1) to (3) have been provided with evidence, which it is hoped won't be demanded for a fresh, as no one likes a broken record.Yogesh Khandke (talk) 17:30, 15 July 2011 (UTC)

We do not have (2) and this has been explained to you before. Equally, it has been explained to you that you will struggle to get consensus to synthesise the 1896 usage of "depressed" with pretty much anything else anyway. (4) is emotive and contradicts what the article portrays. (5) is your therefore misguided opinion. Please either drop the bone or come up with something useful that can take this forward. Carping on about stuff that has already been dealt with is just time-wasting for all parties concerned. - Sitush (talk) 17:39, 15 July 2011 (UTC)

It is you Sitush who is amongst those who are carping - finding fault continually. You are not happy with my interpretation. I am fine with that, but your argument sounds like something I saw on MV's page - wp:idontlikeit, however it is only this far I can go without getting tendentious, if I haven't already. This pages needs eyes that see the wider picture, and fingers to act on that perspective. Till then Aloha.Yogesh Khandke (talk) 17:54, 15 July 2011 (UTC)

Conflating two uses of the same term (in this case "depressed") by two different authors in two different contexts to create a novel statement is certainly synthesis, and we cannot use that. And, Yogesh Khandke, you have yourself just stated that it is your *interpretation*. Editors' interpretation of sources can not be used to support article content - only what the sources actually say themselves. And if Sitush sounds like he's "carping", it's only because he's having to refute the same faulty arguments again and again and again -- Boing! said Zebedee (talk) 18:14, 15 July 2011 (UTC)

I have used the word 'interpretation so that I could be polite and realistic, and not assume that I own truth, unlike those who seem to do. (2)Shudra is a Sanskrit word, it was translated to depressed, ideally we need a dictionary or a glossary of terms, which I do not have, in its absense I have demonstrated it use. You are right; meanings are a functions of context, here the context is the same caste, Shudra, and its tranlation to English. If you think that is synthesis, that betrays a poor understanding of wp:SYNTHESIS.Yogesh Khandke (talk) 18:36, 15 July 2011 (UTC)

I think that Boing! has been around long enough to know a bit about how WP:SYNTH works. However, would you like me to ask another admin to comment? - Sitush (talk) 18:44, 15 July 2011 (UTC)

(ec) Yogesh Khandke, I really think you're missing the point and misunderstanding the "synthesis" thing, and I'm sorry if I'm not explaining it well. The issue is that you cannot use one source to interpret what another source means, *not even if your conclusion is correct*. If you need to modify source A by using source B to arrive at what you believe source A is actually saying, then that is synthesis. If source A didn't actually use the word "Shudra", then you cannot use another source to interpret it as if it did - even if you are correct that that's what it meant. Someone writing in English and using the term "depressed classes" cannot be assumed to mean "Shudra", even if there is a dictionary definition that translates "Shudra" as "depressed classes" - for one thing, "depressed classes" isn't a proper noun and has meaning in English as a generic phrase, and so we simply cannot assume the intended meaning unless it is actually stated. There is a reliable sources board somewhere, and you could take it there for help if you want and see if people there will help to determine whether or not what you are doing is synthesis - but I'm certainly convinced it is -- Boing! said Zebedee (talk) 18:54, 15 July 2011 (UTC)

Reliable sources noticeboard - Sitush (talk) 19:05, 15 July 2011 (UTC)

(edit conflict)(od)(1)I have said this at MV's page and am repeating it here. The word Shudra is used without anyone knowing what it means. (2)Shudra isn't a proper noun, it is a collective noun, very much like depressed classes which isn't generic, but a nomenclature in vogue during the time when India was a British colony, you see we need subject expertise here, though Other Backward Class, has a generic meaning it is also a collective noun. (3)Sitush does being an admin make an editor a better editor? (4)Despite (2) above Zebedee do you mean we assume that Depressed class isn't Shudra, in the context of the source, because the source doesn't use the two terms, well I like that, that is how ideally it should be, the source should have said nobody can consider the Kurmis depressed class - Shudra, no argument about that, a pity the Governor did not elaborate on the term. Does that make the source useless?Yogesh Khandke (talk) 19:31, 15 July 2011 (UTC)

• "do you mean we assume that Depressed class isn't Shudra" - No, I don't.
• "a pity the Governor did not elaborate on the term" - Yes, it is.
• "Does that make the source useless" - As a citation for "Shudra", yes.

-- Boing! said Zebedee (talk) 19:37, 15 July 2011 (UTC)

• Bulleted list item

Zebedee would you please reply/comment to (2) above.Yogesh Khandke (talk) 19:44, 15 July 2011 (UTC)

That is why I say we need expertise.Yogesh Khandke (talk) 19:48, 15 July 2011 (UTC)

(edit conflict) Yogesh, here is a list of your options, most if not all of which have previously been mentioned to you:

1. find something better for whatever point it is you are trying to make
2. take the governor source to WP:RSN and ask about synthesis (not that this would remove shudra from the article, but hey ...)
3. take the entire thing to RfC or DRR
4. give up

Sorry, but that seems to be how it is. As it is now, I am absolutely fed up of the entire situation. - Sitush (talk) 19:39, 15 July 2011 (UTC)

• "Zebedee would you please reply/comment to (2) above" - Your lexicographical analysis is not relevant. If the source says "Shudra" then it's talking about Shudra, but if it just says "depressed classes", we can't be sure. And the English word for "Shudra" does indeed appear to be "Shudra" - I've just checked a few dictionaries. (Anyway, as Sitush says, it wouldn't get "Shudra" removed from the article anyway, as we have to balance all sources and not just cherry-pick the one that we think says what we want). I agree with Sitush over your options - arguing the same point here over and over again won't get us anywhere, so I won't go round in circles any more. I'm off to open a bottle of something, and I'll bid you goodnight -- Boing! said Zebedee (talk) 20:01, 15 July 2011 (UTC)

Some additions and Why Kurmis are Kshatriya

Please add the following in the History Section-

• Kurmi,Kurmi Kshatriya,Kunbi-a large landholding and cultivating caste of northern India supposed to have come to these domminions or Deccan as soldiers early in the seventeenth century. During the wars of Aurangzeb with the Bijapur and Golconda kindoms,and subsequently with the Marathas, they enlisted in the Mughal army and held posts of honour as hajaris,subedars and as commandants of the different forts and districts which were conquered and annexed by the Mughals. since their disbandment, after the death of Aurangzeb, they have settled down as peaceful cultivators,their ranks being recrruited by fresh immigrants from upper India.[url=http://books.google.co.in/books?id=lYSd-3yL9h0C&printsec=frontcover#v=onepage&q&f=false link]

Please add Sindia in Subdivision Section-

• "In Malwa, it(Kurmi) has risen to great power by the elevation of Sindhya, who was a Kurmi, to the government of Ujjain, and at his capital the Kurmis are reckoned Rajpoots."link

Interesting point, thanks for bringing it. I'll try to get it added in in the next couple days; please drop in here and remind us if we don't either add it or give a counter-explanation in the next few days.- MatthewVanitas

• Kurmi is a synonym of Kurma meaning Lord,Master,Powerful,Noble,I'm able,I can do.Similarly Kshatria also has similar meanings,so Kurmi is a synonym of Kshatriya while Sudra means dipressed,weak or inferior,so Kurmi is a Antonym of Sudra.
• Kurmi is a Vedic Hindu caste,Kurmis were refered as Kshatriya by various Sages and Saints,Only religious authorities like Sankaracharya has the right to decide whether Kurmis are Sudra or Kshatriya,none of Hindu sacred text refer Kurmis as Sudra.neither Community or person challenged them in Courts,so Kurmis are Kshatriya.
• Kshatriya community means politically,Socially,Economically,Religiously powerful community,India is a country of 1.2 Billion people and there are three Kurmi or Kunbi ministers in the Union Cabinet,Beni Prasad Verma, Sharad Pawar, Praful Patel,which shows the strength of the Community and OBC quota, which you see as a weakness,is seen as a political strength or status symbol of the Community.
• Lord Rama was an Aryan born in the Treta Yuga in Ayodhya (Awadh).He was the king of Ayodhya and a Suryavanshi Kshatriya. Kurmis are also ancient Aryan tribe,they are also residing in the same Awadh region,one of the Kurmi clan is called awadhiya kurmi(Awadhbansi Kshatriya - Considered as direct decedent of Lav elder son of Lord Rama. Declared by ramanandi Sect in 19th Century. This they proved from the sect document.),they are the major landowner and dominant community of the Awadh region,so first we need to trace History since the Treta Yuga and then we'll be able to decide whether kurmis are Sudra or Kshatriya,till then the benefit of doubt goes to the community and they will stand as Kshatriya.

--Ajneesh Katiyar (talk) 13:21, 16 July 2011 (UTC)

Your post immediately above is not as relevant as the one above that. Indeed, it appears to be mostly original research and synthesis, neither of which are ok here. I have for a while had big doubts about Hussan also but really need to read the thing properly. Personally, I would be happy if all books on India from pre-1947 were basically disallowed for matters of fact but I guess that will never happen. They are generally misguided, often confusing and rely far too heavily on the ancient texts that have been proven to be themselves unreliable. - Sitush (talk) 13:48, 16 July 2011 (UTC)

Did you not see the Etymology section that explains that the "Kurma" theory is but one of several possible origins of Kurmi? So "everyone knows it comes from Kurma" is no argument at all. Your other points are, as Sitush notes, OR/SYNTH. The point about Sindhya is interesting, and I had meant to dig into it before all this chaos distracted us and got the page locked recently, so I'll try and look into it later for adding. MatthewVanitas (talk) 15:57, 16 July 2011 (UTC)

The link mentioned clearly states that Kurmis are reckoned Rajpoots. ..असक्तः सततं कार्य कर्म समाचर | असक्तः हि आचरन् कर्म.. Humour Thisthat2011 19:23, 16 July 2011 (UTC)

And your point is? - Sitush (talk) 19:33, 16 July 2011 (UTC)

And my point is that since Rajpoots are Kshatriyas, so are Kurmis.

And how can anyone reconcile personal interpretations for ignoring sources, example:"I have for a while had big doubts about Hussan also but really need to read the thing properly. Personally, I would be happy if all books on India from pre-1947 were basically disallowed for"? ..असक्तः सततं कार्य कर्म समाचर | असक्तः हि आचरन् कर्म.. Humour Thisthat2011 19:46, 16 July 2011 (UTC)

I thought that it might be. That is synthesis, but worse:

The problems with all of the Raj census reports are endemic. In the 1901 version, for example:

• pp. 12: "... the two Hindoo castes of Kurmis (called also Juswas-Kurmi and Dharmuk) ..." in a section which is discussing how those groups in Bihar sell their offspring, sometimes even when adult, into slavery. Page 21 elaborates that as slaves they performed "menial offices and in agriculture", although it sort of intimates that they were not "impure" as the Kuhar were.

• p. 21: is clear that they are "spurious descendants of rajpoots by their concubines" in Benares

• p. 22: your cherry-picked bit, says that in Malwa they were "reckoned Rajpoots. They seem to be the original tribe of military cultivators of the countries from whence they came, and some of them carry arms, as is usual with the pure agricultural tribes, who appear to be aboriginal Hindoo nations that were not of sufficient consequence to be admitted into the order of Khetrees, but too powerful to be thrust into the dregs of impurity." (my emphasis added)

This demonstrates a couple of the issues, namely: (1) the reports are compilations of opinions made, often without a formal classification/standardised system, by officials on the ground in each area; and that (2) whether legitimate or illegitimate Rajputs, they were not in the Khetree ritual rank, in Malwa at least. - Sitush (talk) 19:51, 16 July 2011 (UTC)

With regard to your other point, there is no need for me to reconcile anything. If it is a reliable source then that is what it is. And if it is not then ... I would love to be able to discount practically all of these old works for use for anything other than observational points. But I cannot, so I do not. I treat each on its own (usually poor) merits. Edgar Thurston is particularly bad, for example. - Sitush (talk) 19:57, 16 July 2011 (UTC)

The statement "a section which is discussing how those groups in Bihar sell their offspring, sometimes even when adult, into slavery" missed the reason part i.e. "from poverty", there is really no discussion here. The statement "the Hindoo slaves are Kurmis and Kuhars, and the spurious descendents of rajpoots by their concubines" is not the same as your interpretation i.e. "p. 21: is clear that they are "spurious descendants of rajpoots by their concubines" in Benares". Whether it is clear to you and what it demonstrates to you should matter less than what is present in sources. One should read sources well, otherwise it gives poor reflection on substance. ..असक्तः सततं कार्य कर्म समाचर | असक्तः हि आचरन् कर्म.. Humour Thisthat2011 20:11, 16 July 2011 (UTC)

I can read the sources perfectly well, thanks. My point is that the comments are a compilation of local reports, often differing in both standard and content from one area to another. The relevance and reliablity is in doubt (even more so, since even the census compilers admitted that their methods were poor). The Oxford comma has always been a source of confusion and is so in this instance on p. 21. There is nothing here to support a claim to kshatriya status other than your own synthesis. I note that you have been having these issues for a while and you consistently ignore advice to check the policies, eg: in the thread at Talk:Mathematics#.5B.7C_Edit.5D_by_User:Athenean. It is not just me who is frustrated with your inability to appreciate how this place works but the frustration is all the greater because you are obviously blessed with a reasonable brain. - Sitush (talk) 20:21, 16 July 2011 (UTC)

Your reply is amusing to an extent, so is your contention that "a compilation of local reports, often differing in both standard and content from one area to another" which is perhaps because, as already discussed, caste system in India is not Iron clad. That does not make sources poor.

You have been pointing out various things at various places, though as noted above, sometimes editors can read wrong too. The policy on Wikipedia is sources, not value judgements on how poor/confusing a few sources are unlike others. ..असक्तः सततं कार्य कर्म समाचर | असक्तः हि आचरन् कर्म.. Humour Thisthat2011 20:29, 16 July 2011 (UTC)

The policy here is reliable sources, not any sources. Judgements are necessary to determine reliability, based on guidelines on how those judgements might be formed. The census reports of the Raj were never reliable. But, in any event, you still have not addressed the synthesis issue. - Sitush (talk) 20:34, 16 July 2011 (UTC)

Is this about incorrect synthesis that "Kurmis are reckoned Rajpoots" or about 'p. 21: is clear that they are "spurious descendants of rajpoots by their concubines" in Benares' which is yours, not mine. The later 'seem to have'/'appear to be' part of uncertainty is what is mentioned in the book, the source does not say that they were not reckoned Rajpoots and the uncertain part does not apply to this. ..असक्तः सततं कार्य कर्म समाचर | असक्तः हि आचरन् कर्म.. Humour Thisthat2011 20:46, 16 July 2011 (UTC)

Your statement that because they were considered Rajput then they must be kshatriya. I have not come close to synthesising anything, anywhere above; I have merely demonstrated some of the issues with this incredibly unreliable source. Even if you could make the connection between Rajput, Kurmi and kshtriya it would only be for the Malwa area. - Sitush (talk) 20:48, 16 July 2011 (UTC)

Kurmis were considered rajputs in the statement means they were considered "Neo Kshatriya" because the rajputs are not the real Vedic Kshatriya,they were created by Brahmins to revenge the creation of new religions(Buddhism and Jainism)by the "Ancient Vedic Kshatriya".first we need to understand the difference between "Neo Kshatriya" and "Ancient Vedic Kshatriya" then we'll be able to know, why Kurmis call themselves Kshatriya. Kurmis are the "Ancient Vedic Ksatriya",who reduced to Sudra status because of Brahmin anger.They regained Kshatriya status in the medieval period and were refered "rajput" or "Neo Kshatriya" or "Brahmin made Kshatriya".But basically Kurmis are the "Ancient Vedic Kshatriya" and the legallity of kurmi claim is because they are "Ancient Vedic Kshatriya" not "Neo Kshatriya" like rajputs. --Ajneesh Katiyar (talk) 03:27, 18 July 2011 (UTC)

AK, you need to provide references for these kind of claims. You can't just suddenly posit an entire history and expect us to believe it. And even if you had provided references, you don't explain what you want changed in the article. We're not here to idly discuss Kurmis, we're here to discuss the article. The article already says the Kurmi consider themselves Kshatriya. If you have evidence that other communities consider them to be Kshatriya, to be Rajputs, to be descendants of Vedic Kshatriyas, etc. then provide those references. And, by the way, even if you provide all those things, that will not result in the term Shudra being removed, so let's just get that clear from the start. MatthewVanitas (talk) 05:36, 18 July 2011 (UTC)

Proposed page

Proposed Kurmi page Yogesh Khandke (talk) 13:33, 19 July 2011 (UTC)

Well, "British colonial sources record them as Shudra" is inaccurate and POV, for starters. I know that you have hang-ups about the colonial era but there is no justification for that sentence. As discussed at length here, the Shudra thing goes back well before British colonial times and has been reliably sourced long after them. This is just continuing existing, misguided long-windedness by another means. - Sitush (talk) 14:40, 19 July 2011 (UTC)

Can we have an older source?Yogesh Khandke (talk) 14:54, 19 July 2011 (UTC)

Also post-1950 when India became a republic, all varna became redundant, so reliably sourced long after part is immediately proven false.Yogesh Khandke (talk) 14:56, 19 July 2011 (UTC)

You misunderstand me. There are works written after 1947 that clearly use the shudra term in relation to the caste. Shudra existed way back before even the Portguese arrived; and it probably existed as far back as the Muslim & Mughal invasions. You know this & I am not going digging around to prove something that you already know - it is a specious exercise. Shudra was not an invention of the Brits and your proposed sentence implies that it was, so you would need to expand on the point. - Sitush (talk) 15:07, 19 July 2011 (UTC)

Yes for Shudra, but how do you know that Kurmi's were Shudra, and how long, the earlier version, historically Kurmi's were Shudra, means that they were Shudras since recorded history, do you have a source for that? Please do not provide, I am just asking do you have one? We should have a statement like according to xxxx the earliest mention of Kurmis as shudra has been in 1234 in the zzzz.Yogesh Khandke (talk) 16:42, 19 July 2011 (UTC)

There have been numerous reliable sources mentioned. Like I said, you are just prolonging a rather pointless debate. - Sitush (talk) 16:45, 19 July 2011 (UTC)

(od)No you are sticking to an indefensible position. The Shudra statement needs quotes, the sources are books, though they have page numbers, quotations should be provided as foot-notes.Yogesh Khandke (talk) 17:22, 19 July 2011 (UTC)

Show me the policy or guideline that says so, please. It is an unnecessary burden. The sources have to be verifiable, not quoted. - Sitush (talk) 17:24, 19 July 2011 (UTC)

Sure, actually I didn't know one existed, but it is natural that when you quote a book, and there are arguments, you provide the source as a form of a foot-note. A relief I found the guideline easily, here we go, see wp:OFFLINE: Special care should be taken when using offline sources. Make sure to provide full bibliographic information, often by using a fully-filled out citation template, like {{cite book}}: Empty citation (help) or {{cite news}}: Empty citation (help). Complete information helps Wikipedia's readers find the source when they need it, and also increases the source's credibility among the Wikipedia editing community (who may otherwise be skeptical of its reliability). Second, use the quote= parameter within those citation templates to provide some context for the reference. This is especially important when using the off-line source to support a fact that might be controversial or is likely to be challenged. (emphasis mine)Yogesh Khandke (talk) 17:32, 19 July 2011 (UTC)

Yes, but which sources are offline? We have a list of them that can be used here. Furthermore, despite appearances to the contrary, I do not believe that this is really a controversial issue for Kurmi. Some people are transposing onto this article general concerns that are applicable to all India caste articles & others are trying to assert something that quite simply does not stand up to scrutiny. This is not controversy in the sense that WP:OFFLINE means. Furthermore, OFFLINE is neither a policy nor a guideline. - Sitush (talk) 17:36, 19 July 2011 (UTC)

(1)Ya but it is commonsense. (2)Offline was directed from wp:V, let me see that. (2)I wrote, qualify the statement historically Kurmis were Shudras, since when?? the iron-age? Don't you understand??? (3)Alternately in the Pande book which you have cited, there is a reference to some kind of classification that the British gov, came with for its Indian subjects, it happened around the 1901 census, we can have a specific statement that the Kurmis were considered as xxx, or a fine-tuned Kurmis from zzz were mmmmm, and Kurmis from gggg were nnnn, since it is your source, you perhaps know about this classification.Yogesh Khandke (talk) 17:58, 19 July 2011 (UTC)

Look at this the 1901 bit [1].Yogesh Khandke (talk) 18:07, 19 July 2011 (UTC)

(od)Eureka!

“ In 1901, the Census Commissioner, Herbert Risley, decided to give the ranking of jatis in their local context and their varna ”

South Asia: Politics of South Asia By Aditya Pandey, pp 157. Sitush I had asked you about a common classification tool, you wrote one doesn't exist. Sitush instead of tilting at windmills, (accusing Mango of socking), you could have done a little reading and found this source which I have, now we have a simple classification which no body can argue with. We can say According to Risley Kurmis were xxx, and add a footnote who this Risley was. Thank me for this seminal discovery. :-).Yogesh Khandke (talk) 18:07, 19 July 2011 (UTC)

The P book is not my source and I am on record, during this debate with you, as saying that it probably needs to go in favour of one of the others. As for the rest of your comment: a repetitive yawn. Not interested any more, see my previous replies etc. - Sitush (talk) 18:13, 19 July 2011 (UTC)

(od)(1)Check this out: Wikipedia:V#Burden_of_evidence The burden of evidence lies with the editor who adds or restores material. And though Wikipedia:V#Access_to_sources, informs that The principle of verifiability implies nothing about ease of access to sources..., it does point to Wikipedia:Offline sources, which commonsense would tell us means that if there is difficulty of access, we should have a quotation. as mentioned in offline sources. (2)Use the Risley classification, if not bane on all the caste articles.Yogesh Khandke (talk) 18:21, 19 July 2011 (UTC)

Please list which sources you are finding difficult to access. Please explain to me why an essay is not a guideline or policy. And, please, can you sotp outdenting quite so often - it is not necessary and it is very confusing. - Sitush (talk) 18:24, 19 July 2011 (UTC)

Leave the above aside, how about Risley?Yogesh Khandke (talk) 18:35, 19 July 2011 (UTC)

OD my bad, sorry.Yogesh Khandke (talk) 18:36, 19 July 2011 (UTC)

I refuse to dance to your tune - provide that list, please. I do not even understand what point you wish to be elaborated regarding Risley. I've already discounted him as a being a great source above. The censuses were grossly flawed & even the census commissioners noted this. There is a discussion of some of the flaws at Nair, citing Christopher Fuller and Eileen Gough. - Sitush (talk) 18:44, 19 July 2011 (UTC)

(1)Well Varna itself is a flaw. So what? We aren't talking about the census but we are talking about Risley's classification, flaws or otherwise, they are Risley's and not Wikipedia's. Anyone disagreeing to caste xxxx is yyyy varna would have to bark at Risley and not you or me. Do you get the point? (2)I don't have Risley's list. I lives scores of km from any good library, would you help with finding it?Yogesh Khandke (talk) 18:53, 19 July 2011 (UTC)

No, I will not help you because it is not a reliable source. See Nair - the censuses were hopelessly mixed up and poorly conducted, and castes routinely tried to adjust their position in the hierarchy when the enumerators counted them. You are just wasting still more of my time. I used to be able to contribute to articles in a big way, and did so rather well (even if I say so myself). I really do not care less what you think about varna - it existed as a concept for one heck of a long time.

That the census was conducted is a fact, that there was a classification done is another, that they were flawed is an opinion, why bother about that. Check the new look proposed page User talk:Yogesh Khandke/sandbox Kurmi post RisleyYogesh Khandke (talk) 19:01, 19 July 2011 (UTC)

Do you mean to say that a government census and classification isn't a good source within its boundaries? Is that a joke?Yogesh Khandke (talk) 19:03, 19 July 2011 (UTC)

Your "proposed page" is essentially the version of the article I wrote almost in its entirety (especially the complex "Varna status debate" section), except you tweak a few terms which are the exact same content you've spent 40-some sections arguing about. You're fully within your right to work on a draft article, but I don't see how having a whole extra draft helps when it's 90% my work, and then just the changes you couldn't get consensus for here. You can take the few sentences that vary and post them here for discussion, but again we come back to the same issues we've been covering. MatthewVanitas (talk) 19:10, 19 July 2011 (UTC)

Of course, the census can be used in the article. But it cannot be used definitively because its failings were recognised even by those who compiled it, and have been absolutely slaughtered since then by people such as the two I mention above. We would have to include a substantial comment to account for this & my suspicion is that then you will just move your ridiculously tendentious campaign over to "why do we need that qualifying comment". - Sitush (talk) 19:16, 19 July 2011 (UTC)

(edit conflict)Why do you look at the world through your failings? I don't want to make anybody dance to my tunes. I don't want to endlessly argue, I have tried to find answers. Well to start with we can have a page on Risley's classification of Varna, with everything any one said on it. Such as Risley's work, as a scientific effort, seemed to be based on mistaken premises.(Rudolph et al)The end result was the systematization of the complex and multi-faceted ideology of varna and the existential reality of jati in terms of 'caste'.(Midgley)

"The burden of evidence lies with the editor who adds or restores material" - standard; & "Historically Kurmis are considered Shudras" without giving definitive time-frame of since when, etc. means that editors are adding/editing material without much evidence. Since when are Kurmis called Shudras exactly is what is required which is not forthcoming at all in the din of which sources are not reliable and the reliable sources not presented well with quotes. So what does historically mean, in this case exactly? Since when? Should the term be used randomly? ..असक्तः सततं कार्य कर्म समाचर | असक्तः हि आचरन् कर्म.. Humour Thisthat2011 19:28, 19 July 2011 (UTC)

The word "historically" refers to the fact that they are no longer considered to be shudra, in the sense that the term is banned in India (apparently, although the government still use it). I added that word specifically to address earlier (valid) concerns. Historically, they were indeed considered to be shudra and we have the sources for this but cannot yet further amend the article to reflect them. - Sitush (talk) 19:32, 19 July 2011 (UTC)

Quotes still could be presented though. ..असक्तः सततं कार्य कर्म समाचर | असक्तः हि आचरन् कर्म.. Humour Thisthat2011 19:34, 19 July 2011 (UTC)

(edit conflict) They could be, but I for one won't be doing it as they are unnecessary + would be very long, which runs a risk of being afoul of non-free use criteria. Unless Yogesh can provide his list, of course; in which case I am prepared to review. - Sitush (talk) 19:46, 19 July 2011 (UTC)

Sub-section

MV you are right, is it my fault that I agree with you. I used the sandbox as a device that could be edited as the present page is locked.Yogesh Khandke (talk) 19:44, 19 July 2011 (UTC)

More on Risley from above. Sitush once we have the Risley page with all Risleys failings in it, we could have, his classification system used here, like I have in the sandbox?? Agree or dis-agree?Yogesh Khandke (talk) 19:57, 19 July 2011 (UTC)

Disagree. Even your sources say that his system was wrong - "not based on scientific premises", unleashed a firestorm, changed a traditional notion to one that caused people to make unsubstantiated claims etc. They basically do not bear any relevance to Kurmi. They do bear relevance to an article on Risley. Why not go write it? - Sitush (talk) 19:59, 19 July 2011 (UTC)

BTW, why am I not surprised that all the points I make above occur in the two pages of Rudolph prior to the page you start citing from? Could this be because they do not assist your POV? - Sitush (talk) 20:16, 19 July 2011 (UTC)

(edit conflict)::::(1)Hey! Stop tilting at windmills. That was just an example I gave. Could as well have used [2] (2)I say, use the Risley's classification, add a link to a page which has all that needs to be said about Risley's system, which would be a disclaimer, that would get the anti-Shudra-Kurmi editors off your back. (3)And more importantly we have a tool to judge Varna circa 1900s, the only bottle neck is how to find Risley's work.Yogesh Khandke (talk) 20:38, 19 July 2011 (UTC)

... and furthermore, Risley would do Thisthat's Kshatriya argument no favours. Just pointing this out, before TT gets too enthusiastic. Read pages 29, 93 & 408 of this book by Risley. Feel free to read around those pages, of course, as I have done. - Sitush (talk) 20:29, 19 July 2011 (UTC)

(1)I am interested in an objective classification system, Risley for any/all of its flaws is one, when I mean objective I mean one which can be used objectively by us, select a caste, check its Risley status. I want that vague historically Kurmis were Shudra replaced by Kurmis were classified as xxxxxxx by Risley. (2)You bother about favours, that aint my burden.Yogesh Khandke (talk) 20:38, 19 July 2011 (UTC)

So, your proposal for objectivity relies on the standard set by a widely discredited classifier? Love it. Seriously, it seems very odd to me and, in any event, is not relevant to this article (I say it again). It is worthy of an article, which you can spend time on, and then if you still consider his system to be worthwhile then you culd make a proposal at the India project to roll it out across all caste articles for the infobox. Assuming infoboxes still exist then, because there may yet be a proposal going in to see the things removed.

You have been arguing for the removal of shudra but it looks likely that Risley thinks that Kurmi were shudra, not that I reckon much to him in any event. - Sitush (talk) 20:46, 19 July 2011 (UTC)

Am I writing English? What does objectively for us, mean? Why are the nuances lost on you? Do you have a better classification system? Don't you understand that citing different sources for different castes produce the gaffes galore. Did you look at the sandbox, it is not just the infobox. (4)Don't you understand the reason for the Risley article? That would put all about Risley in one place so when an article uses Risley's classification, the reader knows how to deal with it. (5)As far as I am concerned Kurmis could be Kryptonian, I don't care, your method was faulty, which I what I am bothered about.Yogesh Khandke (talk) 21:00, 19 July 2011 (UTC)

Do we need a classification section in Infobox with articles on Castes ? If somebody wants to point out the former Shudra status of any caste, then that can be done in the body of text which may be less contentious than the Infobox. Jonathansammy (talk) 21:56, 19 July 2011 (UTC)

@ Jonathansammy - precisely. I have been saying this for a while, in various places when it was relevant to the discussion.

@ Yogesh: of course I read more than the infobox - my quote extracted from your proposed page above clearly illustrates this (the "British colonial" thing). As for your comment regarding objectively for us, well, the point is that Risley's system is a deprecated method and therefore not reliable. Well, that's how I see it anyway. We do not impose a system just because it exists, otherwise someone would be suggesting that we use the clearly silly systems proposed and utilised in Hitler's Germany to determine race etc. - Sitush (talk) 23:09, 19 July 2011 (UTC)

Look at page Catholicism. Could you try removing everything which is not more than 15-20 years sources? Just plainly being (without standard)self-declared-neutral-chap-best-suited won't do, just as trying to avoid mention of Kurmis in Hindu scriptures and Hindu clerics declaring Kurmis as Kshatriyas won't do. The editors are also ignorant of Historic significance of Puranas. ..असक्तः सततं कार्य कर्म समाचर | असक्तः हि आचरन् कर्म.. Humour Thisthat2011 06:42, 20 July 2011 (UTC)

I am sorry but I cannot make sense of what you are saying above. Could you perhaps rephrase it? Unless you are saying that we should use the puranas etc, in which case the answer is that we should not because they are primary sources, as discussed previously. - Sitush (talk) 08:34, 20 July 2011 (UTC)

It means that there are editors who ignore sources that mention Kurmis as Kshatriya, in ways presented in the sources itself, therefore not primary. There was never direct consideration of Puranas earlier. ..असक्तः सततं कार्य कर्म समाचर | असक्तः हि आचरन् कर्म.. Humour Thisthat2011 09:15, 20 July 2011 (UTC)

OK, I think that understand now. Name a couple of the sources you are referring to. - Sitush (talk) 09:20, 20 July 2011 (UTC)

Sitush in the new version, which was before you made the last comment, there isn't any mention of the British colony, you should have checked before jumping the gun, check the new look page. The only bottleneck is getting hold of Risley.Yogesh Khandke (talk) 09:37, 20 July 2011 (UTC)

I checked it when you pointed out that it existed. I am not going to check it every time you mention the thing unless you tell me that you have changed it (which I now see you did, but by refactoring this page). In any event it does not alter the fact that your statement was misleading because you knew darn well that I had looked at it at some point. Regardless, you can change your proposal as much as you like: I am not willing to see Risley's classification used in this article for the reasons already stated. We do not use a system just because it exists: it has to be a valid system, and a discredited system is not a valid one. - Sitush (talk) 09:46, 20 July 2011 (UTC)

(1)If by refactoring you mean Wikipedia:Refactoring talk pages, why is that a big deal, one can follow discussions through diffs, which sometimes is required when multiple threads are in progress. Why do you create so much fuss about it? (2)Discredited is your opinion, you are creating trouble for yourself by your obstinacy is all I can say, in the presence of an alternative. I have no more to add, your crossed legs attitude has driven me over the edge. All the best.Yogesh Khandke (talk) 10:09, 20 July 2011 (UTC)

"The Kurmis may perhaps be a Hinduised branch of the Santāls. The latter, who are more particular about food, or rather about whom they eat with, than is commonly supposed, will eat cooked rice with the Kurmis, and according to one tradition regard them as elder brothers of their own. However this may be, the totemism of the Kurmis of Western Bengal stamps them as of Dravidian descent, and clearly distinguishes them from the Kurmis of Bihar and the United Provinces. They show signs of a leaning towards orthodox Hinduism, and employ Brāhmans for the worship of Hindu gods, but not in the propitiation of their family and rural deities or in their marriage ceremonies." This section on Bengal Kurmi clearly makes them related to the aboriginal Santal who are not even part of the caste system let alone be called Kshatriya or Shudra. In my opinion and perhaps there are hundreds of references to back it up, the re-introduction of Varna system may be an event as late as the Victorian era and has no bearing on the situation "on the ground". As I said before, the scramble to claim all the Sanskritic / brahminic titles for their respective castes started in late Victorian era. Having said that, I would propose getting rid of the Infobox and enter all the disputed information in the body of the text. By the way, Sitush has not provided any references on why and by whom Herbert Risley's work is discredited ? For my own Marathi community, he suggested that most of the castes had similar anthromorphic features and therefore must have a common origin,. This thesis was confirmed a century later by genetic and blood group studies. Please see Deshastha Brahmins for references. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Jonathansammy (talk • contribs) 17:06, 20 July 2011 (UTC)

JS, the discrediting is shown in the refs provided by Yogesh, notably pp. 116-117 of Rudolph. It is also shown at Nair, as I have previously referred to (caste members routinely mis-stated their subdivision etc for aspirational reasons). I could dig out more but I am not going to because there is no need. Basically, anything written that long ago is dubious except as a comment on itself. The same applies to Thurston, for example, and most definitely to James Tod (who is glorified by Rajputs but criticised by pretty much every serious historian from as long ago at the late 19C).- Sitush (talk) 17:15, 20 July 2011 (UTC)

Sitush, we are talking at cross-purposes! First of all, Risley was more of a social scientist /anthropologist rather than a historian. His work on the morphology of the various castes was quoted by social scientists long after his death. Unfortunately, he tried to classify the thousands of castes he studied into the four varnas of the Aryans, however, as he writes in the report on 1901 census, that the thesis only worked in certain parts of the country. In Maharashtra, most of the population , be they brahmins or fisherman, the physical characteristics were the same and thus refuted his own theory. You say anything written a century ago is dubious. that is a tall claim , isn't it ? In that case where would you put work by Ptolemy or Yuclid ? Indians have historically been bad at recording and therefore we have to rely on accounts by foreigners on understanding the history of the country. I agree with you and I quote "Caste members routinely mis-stated their subdivision etc for aspirational reasons". So the course of action should be to remove the classification section and let that discussion be in the main body. I also don't see any mention of the morphological and genetics in this article. Jonathansammy (talk) 18:26, 20 July 2011 (UTC)

I have said before that I am more than content to see the entire infobox go, but if achieving even a partial reduction of it is ok by everyone else then go for it. My comment about dubious sources was intended with specific reference to India-related articles. I completely agree that we can (and do) use works as far back as Barbosa, da Gama, the Chinese guy (Tsien something!) and (with care) even Megasthenes. I've always put such sources into context. But practically all of the British stuff from the Victorian and Edwardian period is junk that gets used indiscriminately and often in a contradictory manner from one article to the next. That stuff is interesting as a comment on itself - British amateur ethnology, anthropology, linguistics, the "gentleman scholar" etc - but as a statement of fact is often either actually worthless or superseded. The basic rule should be: use a modern source unless there is no alternative, and even then only use the old Raj source if it is clearly reliable per usual WP criteria. Certainly, that is a general rule that has worked quite well across a variety of articles. Does this make sense? - Sitush (talk) 18:41, 20 July 2011 (UTC)

Changing shudra stuff now we're off protection

I am already fed up and predicted that this would happen. As soon as this page comes off protection, in people steam making changes that have not been agreed in the discussion here, namely to the shudra issue. I accidentally reverted an ok edit (as in "I can't be bothered") by Yogesh about OBC & fixed that, though he still argued the toss, but the changes to the wording of the classification have simply not been agreed & so the status quo must stay.

In particular, nowhere in the above discussion is there anything to suggest that academics regard them as "deprecated shudra", to use the term inserted by TT2011. I am now at 3RR but, believe me, I consider this to be disruptive editing. - Sitush (talk) 19:47, 21 July 2011 (UTC)

It was from the intro, the term Shudra is deprecated by the Govt. of India. If you can include it in any other way, it is alright by me. How is this 3RR by the way? ..असक्तः सततं कार्य कर्म समाचर | असक्तः हि आचरन् कर्म.. Humour Thisthat2011 20:44, 21 July 2011 (UTC)

I have been thinking about it and the answer is pretty much "no", not without a long-winded explanation as in the intro (which is a plain pointless thing to do). But we could get rid of the infobox entirely. I would be happy with that & it would resolve your issue also. Most of what is in there simply does not matter and is better covered in the article anyway. Or maybe someone else can find a way to explain the whole thing in about 5-6 words and still cause it to make sense and cover all of the bases. You need to bear in mind that although deprecated, the government still use it themselves. - Sitush (talk) 20:46, 21 July 2011 (UTC)

Sitush makes (indirectly) a possibly good suggestion here, regarding the infobox. Why not just take the info out of the infobox? The problem with infoboxes is that they don't have enough space to explain subtle details, but readers read them and easily believe that the key "facts" are there. To give an analogy, in articles on living people, we don't include information about people's religion unless it is very reliably sourced, verified by the person themselves, and relevant to why the person is notable. So how about we take out the line in the infobox called "Classification"? Then, we can keep the info in the text, where we can give a longer, more subtle discussion (since the issue is clearly complex). Would that help satisfy everyone's concerns? Qwyrxian (talk) 22:39, 21 July 2011 (UTC)

I can live with that compromise. It is no secret that I am one of those who considers these infoboxes to be more trouble than they are worth in caste articles but that is a debate for another forum. I did think of suggesting stripping just that one parameter but was thinking ahead. There are other items in it that are likely to be challenged and so I was adopting a "one solution fits all" approach. But a piecemeal approach will achieve the same immediate purpose and we can worry about the rest later. My only concern is that someone else will simply reinstate the thing, but I guess that they could do that with the entire box also. The figure may have changed but I saw an article/essay recently about infoboxes that said only 3% of all English Wikipedia articles use the things anyway. I have no idea how that data was derived.

I have been discussing a vaguely related suggestion regarding a template on talk pages with the intent of at least in theory reducing the amount of repetitive debate that goes on with regard to (for example) Tyagi's Martial Races book, unsourced "this is my experience and I am right" comments etc. Again, this is not the forum to debate it but since there are quite a few passionate people involved on this page perhaps it is something that they might like to ponder, as indeed I still am doing. It would not work 100% of course, but it might relieve us all of some of the hassle related to continually re-covering old ground. Don't panic, though, as it would not be a diktat.- Sitush (talk) 23:21, 21 July 2011 (UTC)

Replacing Pandey

There seems to be some agreement here, among all the other stuff flying around, that using Pandey as a source may not be ideal. I cannot recall why this was so and I am not going digging for those reasons but in the spirit of co-operation with those who really, really objected to using Pandey, is it ok to replace that source with one of the other sources listed at Talk:Kurmi#Reliable_sources_supporting_Kurmi_as_Shudra? - Sitush (talk) 17:29, 22 July 2011 (UTC)

No objections. I think the arguments against Pandey (other than very vague things like "it's a bad book") note that she's not heavily cited on GoogleScholar, so I'm fine swapping in some other refs. As I recall, there were a ton more gBooks hits for "kurmi shudra" so I'm also open to totally new sources (provided they're abundantly clear RSs) being used for cites in articlespace. MatthewVanitas (talk) 17:32, 22 July 2011 (UTC)

Without wishing to evaluate any of the sources myself (because I specifically don't want to be part of the content decision process), in general I'd say that using sources which are more widely cited must be better, as it suggests greater reliability -- Boing! said Zebedee (talk) 17:46, 22 July 2011 (UTC)

Pinch quote ""thought of themselves not as cosmically created servants"

Just to head off any arguments: MW is correct that the particular cite given does not specify Kurmi clearly. Another source, Jaffrelot, specifically says that Pinch used it to refer to Kurmis[3], but we can't actually see Page 6 of Peasants and Monks in British India, so I don't object to the current removal unless we can actually find the Pinch book and see what it says. However, I don't find it an urgent priority since it's not particularly conclusive, and it tells us what we already know (they consider themselves Kshatriya vice Shudra and have politically agitated to ensure this is recognised). MatthewVanitas (talk) 20:33, 22 July 2011 (UTC)

I never even understood that quote but have extremely limited access to Pinch & kind of assumed AGF. Nnoetheless, it might have been better for MangoWong to mention it here first instead of going of an a unilateral change, given that this is directly connected to the classification dispute. For that reason, s/he got a 3RR warning from me. - Sitush (talk) 20:37, 22 July 2011 (UTC)

The deleted line had the source mentioned as link. ..असक्तः सततं कार्य कर्म समाचर | असक्तः हि आचरन् कर्म.. Humour Thisthat2011 20:41, 22 July 2011 (UTC)

About your warning signs, I have replied that you perpetrate warningavalanches only to discredit others and you are unwelcome to place warning signs. And I see no need to discuss things before removing misleading information. Discussions here seem to be a waste of time anyway. But I can be expected to defend my edits on this talk page after I make them. If there are objections, please put them up, and I shall try to explain myself or modify my views if I could not defend them. I don't think it is necessary to have a discussion beforehand, but I may also do so when I feel it is necessary.-MangoWong (talk) 20:54, 22 July 2011 (UTC)

You are doing everything the wrong way round. - Sitush (talk) 20:56, 22 July 2011 (UTC)

Something has happened and this page is semi-protected no longer. Good. Will folks look at this page and comment Kurmi proposed.Yogesh Khandke (talk) 19:13, 23 July 2011 (UTC)

1. It is fundamentally an unattributed copy of this article
2. It has been discussed before and seems not to have changed much
3. There are too many "find sources" in the Refs section
4. It is plain wrong because it whitewashes history

Is that a good enough critique for you? - Sitush (talk) 19:19, 23 July 2011 (UTC)

What do you want me to do? Reinvent the wheel??? Since you've had your say, how about others??Yogesh Khandke (talk) 19:27, 23 July 2011 (UTC)

My point is that #1 is a breach of the WP license arrangements. It can be fixed but it is nonetheless a breach. The subsidiary point is that you have previously suggested that it is your own work, which is the attitude of a plagiarist. It is a matter of concern, obviously. As MV has said, the solution is not to write a whole new page but to modify the existing article, assuming that you can achieve consensus, fill in all those blanks etc. These assumptions are unlikely to be resolved because they are at the heart of this ridiculously long, silly, repetitive conversation that you and your colleagues have chosen to spread across tens of forums. - Sitush (talk) 19:32, 23 July 2011 (UTC)

Refers to the two edits by [4] [5]. The cell in the info box reads classification, which means what is the class, the answer is Other Backward Class, which is a verifiable fact. What say?Yogesh Khandke (talk) 19:43, 23 July 2011 (UTC)

Why not just remove the line, as we have been discussing? You have no consensus for your edit, you know it and you should self-revert. It is disruptive and could end up being a blockable "offence". Why risk it? - Sitush (talk) 19:46, 23 July 2011 (UTC)

Consensus sought

In the infobox I have described classification as Other Backward Class which is a verified fact, see inline citation in lead. Please opine with reasons.Yogesh Khandke (talk) 20:08, 23 July 2011 (UTC)

See my reasons ad infinitum above. I am about to remove the change you have made since even you now admit that you do not yet have consensus for that whih you have done. Once you get it (if you get it) then that's ok. - Sitush (talk) 20:16, 23 July 2011 (UTC)

I guess absence of comments from your side means you agree to Yogesh Khandke. ..असक्तः सततं कार्य कर्म समाचर | असक्तः हि आचरन् कर्म.. Humour Thisthat2011 20:23, 23 July 2011 (UTC)

No, it means that you have not read what I have written over the last few weeks. - Sitush (talk) 20:37, 23 July 2011 (UTC)

Agree with Yogesh Khandke. Much more clear according to me considering how Kurmis are described as Kshatriya at many places in Hinduism(not just Kurmis themselves) and 'generally Kurmis are considered as Shudra' is according to me misnomer that ignores Kurmis themselves(& many others) amongst 'general set' of people. ..असक्तः सततं कार्य कर्म समाचर | असक्तः हि आचरन् कर्म.. Humour Thisthat2011 20:23, 23 July 2011 (UTC)

Alternative proposal for infobox

This has been said before but appears to have been ignored by most of the regulars - probably lost in the heat haze!

The documentation for the caste infobox is vague regarding for what the "Classification" field should be used. There is a clear consensus generally across caste articles that it is used for the varna, but we seem to have hit problems with that here. We could, I suppose, take it to the India project for a general discussion but I think that we have had enough socks and meatpuppets wandering around without spreading them further. It is a local issue and can be dealt with locally.

There is a difference of opinion regarding what should be shown there and in any event it cannot possibly reflect the complexities of the article, given that there are at least three possibilities. Removing it removes the issue. Nice and simple. There simply is not room clearly to state all of the possible options and with sufficient detail that they make sense. So let the body of the article do it. Infoboxes are apparently only used in around 3% of articles anyway, so removing one line from a box should be no big deal. Should there be no consensus to achieve this then I fear we will continue to hold a debate that has gone on for too long with no likely positive outcome either way. - Sitush (talk) 20:31, 23 July 2011 (UTC)

The change proposed above by Yogesh seems to suggest using the current official political status rather than the original Varna classification, and in the absence of any specific guideline, that sounds like a valid possible alternative to me. However, if one line in an infobox can cause so much upset (and that upset may well be justified, as a very short statement often cannot do justice to the full alternatives and may make it look as if Wikipedia is taking sides by adopting one possible meaning when there are various), then the idea of removing it altogether and leaving it to a full explanation in the body of the article sounds like a valid alternative to me. Anyway, no personal preference - just a few thoughts that those who understand the subject better than I might care to consider -- Boing! said Zebedee (talk) 21:38, 23 July 2011 (UTC)

One problem with OBC/ST/SC/FC is that they change and when they do so it is not always a nationwide change. Sometimes a community can be OBC in one area and not OBC in another. It all depends on the local/regional socio-economic situation, with not a little bit of politics thrown in.

So, changing it to OBC (assuming for now that the classification presently applies nationwide) is not going to alter things in the medium term. There will still be complexity.

That field in that box is an absolute magnet for warring, as has been shown time and again across numerous articles. IP editors, in particular, often seem to be fixated with that field and yet leave the article body alone. I can also pretty much guarantee that someone will come along in a couple of weeks, see OBC there & change it to the varna version. OK, there would be a consensus position to change it back but the warring will just keep going on. Using the modern system may be correct for today but millions of people in India still think in the old terms and that is one reason why the govt. tries to limit use of the shudra term there, in an attempt to reduce friction etc. There are still plenty of violent deaths each year despite this.

I know that WP:OSE applies but, honestly, there are few (if any) articles that adopt that approach.

Many IP editors simply are not familiar enough with the system to actually add the field back and therefore if it does not exist it is less likely to be warred over.

I absolutely guarantee that the proposal by Yogesh is a forerunner to scrapping the mention of varna altogether in the article. That is his POV & that is the bit which is unsustainable. I do realise that the varna issue can and should be decided separately but we'll just land ourselves with even more repetitive discussions with an extra angle thrown into the mix. If it doesn't exist, it is not a problem.

As for whether it is "Caste" or "Class", I really do not care. Both are used by the government. All I will say is that the consensus reached at Forward caste was to rename the article as that, when previously it had been "Forward class". On the OBC article, both words are used interchangably. I took no part in either of those discussions.

Just my thoughts. - Sitush (talk) 22:18, 23 July 2011 (UTC)

Questioning Shudra designation

the reference about the caste kurmi which is classified as shudra is questionable because kurmi was the peasant caste. This peasant caste came in to existence after budha period. When for a long period the kshatriyas were job less because there were no war for long period. Those kshatriyas became peasants. So considering those kashtriyas as shudra is highly questionable.

Sub-castes under Kurmi Kshtriya - Baiswar Jaiswar Sainthwar Singrour Patel Umrao Sahu —Preceding unsigned comment added by 182.48.211.9 (talk) 21:36, 2 September 2010 (UTC) Shivmonu129 (talk) 21:09, 3 May 2011 (UTC)

You raise some interesting points, but given that the current statements are backed up by legitimate academic references, you definitely need to bring references of equal or greater credibility to debate them. Can you perhaps check GoogleBooks and see if you can find any passages from serious academic works which give evidence to your assertions above? MatthewVanitas (talk) 21:13, 3 May 2011 (UTC)

Shivmonu129 (talk) 21:22, 3 May 2011 (UTC)i have checked the reference by book Aditya Pandey but the book itself is not citing the base reference. i have a question, from where he came in to conclusion that kurmi is under shudra caste when there is no such evidence or base reference.

The website clearly states the lineage. http://www.joshuaproject.net/people-profile.php?peo3=17334&rog3=IN —Preceding unsigned comment added by NiharPrasad (talk • contribs) 02:18, 4 May 2011 (UTC)

The Joshua Project is not a credible source for early caste history; they might be somewhat credible for demographics of linguistic groups, but given that their priority is using language skills to convert people to Christianity, they have little to no incentive to cover true history. Further, since they're trying to endear themselves to the groups in question, they're likely to take group claims at face value. Further, look at their "references" for the history section; just random websites that in now way meet WP:Reliable sources. I've provided several very solid academic references saying that Kurmis are Shudra, so if you want to sway the article you need to get on GoogleBooks and find an equally convincing alternative from someone with an actual PhD and a reputation to defend, published by an actual legitimate publisher. MatthewVanitas (talk) 01:36, 10 May 2011 (UTC)

Kurmis belongs to Kshatriya varna , see for ref http://books.google.co.in/books?id=vRwS6FmS2g0C&pg=PA265&dq=kurmi&hl=en&ei=DeHITbmyOYbevwOStOTyBQ&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=5&ved=0CFUQ6AEwBA#v=onepage&q=kurmi&f=false in chapter 16 —Preceding unsigned comment added by BhanukumarSingh (talk • contribs) 08:13, 10 May 2011 (UTC)

Note: you can auto-format GoogleBooks citations using http://reftag.appspot.com . Use the cite as-is for a footnote, or to paste it in-text just cut off the "ref" tags. Above link comes out like so: Vidya Prakash Tyagi (2009). Martial races of undivided India. Gyan Publishing House. pp. 265–. ISBN 9788178357751. Retrieved 10 May 2011..

I have a lot of issues with that Tyagi book, which also came up in the Rajput article. It looks rather suspiciously like a copy of Wikipedia, and the copyediting of the book is so poor that the word "hindu" is lowercase on the very page you link. Admittedly, one of the Shudra refs is from the same publisher (Gyan), but the other is from Columbia University Press. Tell you what, I'll find a few more refs for Shudra, and y'all try and find a few more refs for Kshatriya, and then we can sort out what the academic consensus appears to be. Please paste your GoogleBooks links into Reftag (mentioned above) to make it a nice, clean citation. MatthewVanitas (talk) 14:21, 10 May 2011 (UTC)

Reliable sources supporting Kurmi as Shudra

• Smita Tewari Jassal (2001). Daughters of the earth: women and land in Uttar Pradesh. Technical Publications. pp. 52–. ISBN 9788173043758. Retrieved 10 May 2011.
• Maya Majumdar (1 January 2005). Encyclopaedia of Gender Equality Through Women Empowerment. Sarup & Sons. pp. 205–. ISBN 9788176255486. Retrieved 10 May 2011.
• Susan Bayly (2001). Caste, Society and Politics in India from the Eighteenth Century to the Modern Age. Cambridge University Press. pp. 209–. ISBN 9780521798426. Retrieved 10 May 2011. <-- Indicated Kurmis sought to redefine themselves as Kshatriya rather than Shudra after World War I
• Ramnarayan S. Rawat (23 March 2011). Reconsidering Untouchability: Chamars and Dalit History in North India. Indiana University Press. pp. 17–. ISBN 9780253222626. Retrieved 10 May 2011.

In this book, its not written that Kurmis belongs to Shudras but from lower castes. Kurmis does not belongs to untouchables. —Preceding unsigned comment added by BhanukumarSingh (talk • contribs) 08:00, 12 May 2011 (UTC)

The way I read the sentence, it does say that Kurmis and Yadavs are "low caste" Shudra; I don't see that it implies them to be Dalits, it's noting that Kurmi and Yadav Shudra in contrast with Dalits, have been stauch supporters of Hindu values. MatthewVanitas (talk) 03:36, 19 May 2011 (UTC)

• Ravindra K. Jain (1 January 2002). Between history and legend: status and power in Bundelkhand. Orient Blackswan. pp. 136–. ISBN 9788125021940. Retrieved 10 May 2011.

You can not generalize bundelkhand Kurmis history to all Kurmis. See Gujrat and Bihar kurmis. —Preceding unsigned comment added by BhanukumarSingh (talk • contribs) 08:16, 12 May 2011 (UTC)

If you submit that Gujrat and Bihar Kurmis are of a different caste than Bundelkhand Kurmis, then by all means find a good citation and add it to the "non-Shudra evidence" section below, with maybe a note to explain the difference below the cite. MatthewVanitas (talk) 03:39, 19 May 2011 (UTC)

• Sir William Wilson Hunter; Hermann Michael Kisch; Andrew Wallace Mackie (1877). A statistical account of Bengal. Trübner & co. pp. 292–. Retrieved 10 May 2011. {{cite book}}: Unknown parameter |coauthors= ignored (|author= suggested) (help)
• Jogendra Nath Bhattacharya (1896). Hindu castes and sects: an exposition of the origin of the Hindu caste system and the bearing of the sects towards each other and towards other religious systems / Jogendra Nath Bhattacharya. Thacker, Spink. pp. 272–. Retrieved 10 May 2011.

Reliable sources supporting Kurmi as not Shudra

• Vidya Prakash Tyagi (2009). Martial races of undivided India. Gyan Publishing House. pp. 265–. ISBN 9788178357751. Retrieved 10 May 2011.

Completely discredited book, largely a rip-off of Wikipedia. If folks need more evidence, let me know and I can find past discussions where WPINDIA and other groups have declared this book to be useless. 17:52, 11 July 2011 (UTC)

• Castes and Tribes of HEH the Nizam's Domains. — Preceding unsigned comment added by BhanukumarSingh (talk • contribs) 04:17, 22 June 2011 (UTC)

This book, though antiquated, is interesting and has been (carefully) used for some other articles. The Kurmi content begins on pg 370. Note, however, that the author does not at all say the Kurmi are Kshatriya. Instead he notes they claim Kshatriya status, gives some of their legendary tales, and concludes with the rather "damning with faint praise" mention that their Kshatriya claims "cannot be wholly discounted." All in all, not exactly a strong vote, and from an antiquated book of dubious academic rigour. MatthewVanitas (talk) 17:52, 11 July 2011 (UTC)

• Adding one more book. Though I am not sure if the editing is as per Wiki guidelines: Peasants and Monks in British India. (TomPaul67 (talk) 04:02, 12 July 2011 (UTC))

It's an interesting book overall, but the pages you give do not in the slightest indicate the Kurmi are' Kshatriya. Rather, they recognise that the Kurmi claim to be and term themselves Kshatriya, which we already say in the article quite clearly. The author is simply reporting claims of others, not endorsing them. MatthewVanitas (talk) 13:52, 12 July 2011 (UTC)

About Varna Status

I am completely fed up searching documents about Kurmis that they are from Kshatriya clan. Furthermore in my research I found that whatever u have written or documented in wiki is just conclusion or text from some books written by some author. But my dear friend one thing i want to tell u that caste system in India is not that very simple to understand. Some points in form of questions only for you if u can answer them all correct:-

• Do u have any historical document or proof or in any of your refrences is it written that kurmis are cosmically created servants class.

If not then how can u say on relying upon just some google book refrences.They are written on the basis of 19th century A.D what a so called upper class treat them as.Because Kurmis are properous and good Farmers but the are mostly illitrate. Kurmis didn't have passion for education but they do have wealth and some Kurmis though also work in lands of Bhumihars but they are mostly skilled.

• Kurmi Caste history is not known unlike brahmanas or shudras or vaishyas or kshatriyas.

Can u have some document to prove this statement wrong ,not a fool making google books which is written by some on the basis of just order of status in 19th century A.D

• Can u plz give me any google book reference which is strongly claiming to caste of Chandragupta Maurya or Ashoka .

Although they were people from some caste.

• U found Lord Budhha as Kshatriyas because he belonged to Ikshwaku dynasty or by all of us read about him as Shakya Muni Gotama Budhha and he belonged to Kings family so he is a Kshatriya.

But now my question is that from which caste he belonged: Shakya . Now say that are Shakyas and Koeris (whome u declare a shudra farming caste in bihar like kurmis) are same or not. Do u have any google book reference to prove shakyas and koeris are different.

• What is ur basis of saying Kurmis as shudra .Do u know anything abt this caste history like Brahmana's history. In Manusmirti or vedas etc.

• Can u find out why Kurmis and Koeris population is much more near all ancient capitals and where budhha walked.Why Kurmis are in greater numbers in bihar's Patna, Nalanda, vaishali districts.

Because no one is keen to find out that.No one want to get involve over caste system because their are thousands of caste in India who want to find and research them all. Varna system is correct to be written but caste system does not employ ur varna because varna system is just imposed on the basis of their status in 19th century A.D.

If u don't have historical proof don't write or declare them as shudras. U may write like this author saying this and that author is saying this. U don't have right to make a conclusion and declare them as shudras because it is a battle of caste and no one has right to give his jurisdiction.It is long fight going on and ur descision can pinch them once more.

Hope u will understand. — Preceding unsigned comment added by BhanukumarSingh (talk • contribs) 20:11, 19 June 2011 (UTC)

Well, you don't really give me much to work with; you want "proof" but my valid footnotes are dismissed as "just stuff in books". Yes, there are totally valid concerns with 19th century sources, which is why we use modern sources whenever possible, and frequently discount British Victorian sources as secondary documents. Yes, there is an issue that even modern scholars may be biased by 19th century documents, but however that is the state of academic research on this issue, and Wikipedia cannot fix this issue until the academic community fixes it themselves.

You also demand answers to all kinds of tangential issues. Fundamentally: the Kurmi are listed as Shudra in this article because a body of academic authors (clearly footnoted) refer to them as Shudra. No more, no less. If you have WP:Reliable sources that say otherwise, please present them in the call for sources at the top of this page. MatthewVanitas (talk) 18:02, 11 July 2011 (UTC)

Matthew: This body of academic authors cited is questionable. The reliable body is the Government Of India, 1891 census that was conducted under British Rule and the Kurmi community itself all of whom agree with OBC designation and not SC/ ST which are linked to Shudra verne of the Indian Caste System. The more I review this, the more it reflects your ignorance on the subject. I would therefore suggest that instead of SITUSH or You managing this for wiki, let someone who is more knowledgable on the subject pursue this. Otherwise, this article would remain in perpetual dispute. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Sunnyrathore (talk • contribs) 06:39, 25 July 2011 (UTC)

Semi-protected

I've semi-protected the article for 3 months, due to ongoing disruption from IPs carrying on the Shudra/Kshatriya edit war and blanking bits they don't like without discussion -- Boing! said Zebedee (talk) 11:18, 22 July 2011 (UTC)

How do you expect any I.P.s to discuss things on a semi protected page (which you yourself put on semi) and how can you make changes to the material even if you want to apply protection?-MangoWong (talk) 11:56, 22 July 2011 (UTC)

We have to find a balance between people actually constructively discussing the article, and simply using dynamic IPs to edit war in the article and be abusive and tendentious on the Talk page - if a privilege is abused, it gets withdrawn. Recently, the focus has been far more on edit warring and disruption than on constructive discussion (and it has clearly been coordinated off-wiki). Also, there is absolutely no point the same people repeatedly making exactly the same changes and getting reverted, and making the same demands over and over again, when we have had the discussion multiple times already - especially when they can never provide reliable sources. If people want to improve the article (rather than fight to boost the status of their own caste), then they must seek consensus here first. Today it was the article I protected for 3 months, as the edit warriors are clearly making changes that have already been rejected by lengthy discussion and consensus. This Talk page is protected for a shorter period, and that was done as there were no constructive contributions from IPs at the time; only obviously blocked users carrying on their sockpuppetry and their attacks. We really don't like protecting Talk pages, but when serial abusers leave us with no alternative, then we just have to do it. Anyway, I'll go ahead and unprotect this Talk page now in case anyone wishes to try to gain a consensus - but I'm watching it and if the abuse recommences, I will quickly reprotect it. -- Boing! said Zebedee (talk) 12:15, 22 July 2011 (UTC)

I still see no explanation as to how an IP is expected to participate in a discussion while the talk page was protected????? Except for editing the article without discussion, what other option does an IP have if he wants to dispute some material? Why should it be a fault of the IP that he did not do what he/she had no means to do? How can the IP editing without discussion be seen as disruptive or tendentious for failing to discuss in such a situation? Besides the IP, a number of other registered users have also been objecting to the same material which the IP objects to. Why do you overlook registered users who too have the same objections as the IP? Without the disputes being resolved, how can you know which side is correct? How do you know which side is being tendentious? It is not necessary that sources be produced for a dispute discussion on a talk page. Most discussions proceed without sources being produced. How does producing/not producing sources etc. become an issue for you to decide which side is correct? The most stupefying thing is, how can YOU decide which side and which version of the article is correct? You have said that this dispute is being coordinated in an offsite manner. I have had one user implying regularly that I might have been canvassed offsite. I have asked elsewhere to that user to prove it or apologize. Why would you AGF on one users baseless allegation but not on another user while the allegation remains baseless? How am a criminal without a trial? You are failing AGF here. And how how can you decide which side is right? Do you really believe that tons of users on one side are somehow bogus and all the users on the other side only are valuable users? If so, why have a talk page at all? Just declare on the article that so and so is only qualified to edit this article and anyone who opposes him is tendentious or disruptive of somehow bogus and there is no need for any discussion. I also find that you have been associated with this and other caste articles for quite some time now. You have also been blocking other users for various reasons, whether right or wrong. Whatever. I ask that some fresh eyes be allowed to take a look at the disputes in these caste related articles. That is a more neutral way to go along settling disputes. Only having one set of admins around one set of articles and supporting only one set on eds does not inspire much confidence in fresh eds who want to edit them. I hope fresh eyes would be allowed to deal with issues on these articles.-MangoWong (talk) 13:58, 22 July 2011 (UTC)

Mangowong, the talk page isn't semi-protected--just the article. IPs can participate in the discussion just fine. And if they think they have an edit that can get consensus, then they can uyse the "edit semi-protected" template to request that someone make the edit for them. You're getting angry about something that isn't true. Qwyrxian (talk) 14:02, 22 July 2011 (UTC)

And I see that Boing! said Zebedee already explained that. So long as we don't get a flood of IP editors bombarding this talk page with tendentious editing, it can stay unprotected. And, by the way, you're wrong about sources. Yes, we can have some discussions without sources, but we cannot have 20 people coming and saying "They're not Shudra, I know, my grandfather said so, everyone knows that, this is offensive", because that is a violation of WP:SOAPBOX and/or WP:NOTFORUM. If people want to improve the article, then they can do so with specific ratonale; if they're saying that something has to change in the article, they have to produce sources to support that change; they can't just say over and over again that they don't like it. Qwyrxian (talk) 14:07, 22 July 2011 (UTC)

Qwyrxian has answered well, but I'll just add a few points for reinforcement...

• I still see no explanation as to how an IP is expected to participate in a discussion while the talk page was protected?": The explanation was at "I'll go ahead and unprotect this Talk page now in case anyone wishes to try to gain a consensus", which I immediately then did.

• Oh, just a bit more. If you think I reverted and protected because the IPs made changes without discussion (which they couldn't do), that wasn't the reason - I did it because they made changes that went against consensus without providing any sources (and not even a word in the edit summary) (-- Boing! said Zebedee (talk) 15:33, 22 July 2011 (UTC))

• Besides the IP, a number of other registered users have also been objecting to the same material which the IP objects to. Why do you overlook registered users who too have the same objections as the IP?: We don't decide content issues based on the number of people making objections, but on the quality of the sources they use to justify the changes they want to make. So a thousand people making demands they can't support with reliable sources will not get what they want, while one person with a reliable source will.
• How does producing/not producing sources etc. become an issue for you to decide which side is correct?: Wikipedia does *not* work by trying to decide who is correct, it works by echoing what reliable sources say. I honestly don't understand why we are having so much difficulty trying to get that over to people - but at the very least, you really do need to properly understand WP:V. If we have a page full of people saying one thing but providing no reliable sources, and we have one reliable source saying the opposite, we go with the one reliable source. And if we have a number of reliable sources saying different things, we represent them with appropriate weight and say something like "A said X, but B said Y". We do *not* try to judge which is correct. That's the *only* thing that gets to decide what goes in the article - what reliable sources say (and yes, even if they're wrong). And that's a fundamental Wikipedia policy that no amount of argument here is going to change.
• And how how can you decide which side is right?: I don't, and I'm not trying to - I simply try to judge what the consensus currently is, and I revert attempts to change away from that consensus without providing sources (oh, and by the way, if the IPs I reverted earlier had provided reliable sources for their changes, that would have been fine - but they didn't).
• Do you really believe that tons of users on one side are somehow bogus and all the users on the other side only are valuable users?: Again, it's *not* down the the weight of numbers on each side - it's all about, you remember - RELIABLE SOURCES. Properly sourced content goes in, unsourced or improperly sourced content does not, and it really is as simple as that.
• I also find that you have been associated with this and other caste articles for quite some time now.: Actually not for very long at all, no, and it's only from the admin angle of enforcing policy and judging consensus, because I clearly saw that admin actions were needed to stop the edit wars and the personal attacks (you might have missed some of the most egregious abuse from a few weeks ago). I have not been making actual content decisions - the consensus makes the decisions, and I enforce the consensus.
• You have also been blocking other users for various reasons, whether right or wrong: I have asked for admin review before, and people have complained about me before, and so far I have had complete admin support for my actions, and all of the reviewing admins who reviewed the various unblock requests supported me - every single one of them. If you think I'm wrong in enforcing Wikipedia's policies on Verifiability, Sourcing, and Conensus, you are very welcome to make your own complaints and seek outside opinion (you could complain at WP:ANI, for example).
• I ask that some fresh eyes be allowed to take a look at the disputes in these caste related articles.: Fresh eyes are always welcome, but they won't get the article changed unless their gaze falls upon reliable sources to support any new version.
• Only having one set of admins around one set of articles and supporting only one set on eds: I am *not* supporting "one set of eds", I am supporting one editing strategy, the only strategy Wikipedia will allow, and that is to make changes only with the support of reliable sources.

Now, I am not going to argue any further, because all of this policy has been explained many times, until more than a handful of faces have turned blue - but people either still, for some reason, don't understand it, or they willfully ignore it and try to overturn policy by sheer weight of numbers. I honestly don't know which it is. But either way, I'm not going to repeat myself yet again - so if you don't like what I'm saying, you'll now have to appeal to someone else -- Boing! said Zebedee (talk) 15:02, 22 July 2011 (UTC)

I've just expanded on the first point, above -- Boing! said Zebedee (talk) 15:33, 22 July 2011 (UTC)

Mangowong, the talk page isn't semi-protected--just the article. IPs can participate in the discussion just fine. Why do you say this? The talk page was protected when I claimed that it was and the IPs couldn't participate in the discussion when I said they couldn't. Please investigate the article history and the talk page history. There is nothing wrong with what I said.-MangoWong (talk) 16:21, 24 July 2011 (UTC)

Fully protected

I've fully protected the article for 24 hours to stop an ongoing edit-war. Please discuss your differences here on the Talk page and get a consensus for a preferred version. If edit-warring continues without any discussion starting here, I will refer the article to WP:ANEW where I suspect it will be partly judged based on the WP:BRD approach. (Please note that my protection does not endorse whatever version it happens to be at - I just protected it in the state I found it) -- Boing! said Zebedee (talk) 11:55, 24 July 2011 (UTC)

I know you did not edit article content while applying the present protection. But it would seem to me that protecting the article due to just two reverts was probably too tight an attempt to control reverts. Anyway, I have already explained in my edit summary [6] that I think I am entitled to put in those tags. And that the tags should stay until either proper citations are provided or the discussion completes. You [7] and Sitush [8] had objected to those tags. It is on you to prove that citations are not needed in the lead and it is on Sitush to show that books from 100-150 years ago could know what present scholars differ on and that the line in the infobox is already cited in the article. Please also show that the “citation needed” tags were unnecessary and can be removed without inserting proper citations or without having a discussion to achieve consensus. I think that having those tags was proper because it keeps reminding us and all other readers that these need proper cites and they also warn the reader that there might be some problem with that info.-MangoWong (talk) 13:00, 24 July 2011 (UTC)

I am making no arguments here about whether the tags are or are not appropriate, and will offer no further opinion - that is a content issue and needs its own discussion, in which I will take no part, but will leave for others to decide. I protected the article to prevent further edit-war, and also to avoid either of you being blocked (which is what might well have happened had it carried on and/or a different admin had seen it and dealt with it). It's only 24 hours, so that gives people a chance to start a constructive discussion rather than just sticking with the confrontational "No, it's *you* who must start the discussion" line. Please remember that collegial editing is what is expected here, not a battle -- Boing! said Zebedee (talk) 13:08, 24 July 2011 (UTC)

I'll address the tags: they aren't need because the information is verified. Let me use an analogy (I like analogies--that make things easier for me to understand, apologies if they don't help). On biographical articles, we should normally provide a reference for the birthday if we include it. However, we don't have to include that reference in the infobox, the lead, and the "early life" section (if there is one)--only one reference is sufficient to cover the information. If information in the lead is verified by reliable sources in the main article, then we don't have to duplicate those references in the lead. But, to be honest, for me at least, if all we have to do to satisfy you (MangoWong) is to copy the references from the body of the article into the lead, I have no problem copying them; it's excessive, but it's not terrible. So, MangoWong, are you saying that if we copy the references from the body into the lead you will accept that no "cite needed" tag is necessary? Qwyrxian (talk) 13:32, 24 July 2011 (UTC)

I'm happy with that but would point out that the whole thing is likely going to change anyway due to the two proposals in the sections above. This is just a distraction and I feel that if we concentrate on those two proposals then we may move things forward faster. My revert was purely because of BRD and the ongoing discussions here, both of which MW was already aware. - Sitush (talk) 14:09, 24 July 2011 (UTC)

Well, Boing! Said Zebedee. You did revert those tags. [9] If you are not going to participate in the discussion, how would I find out that citations are not needed in the lead. If you would not defend your comment and edit, why would you make it? Since you did make the edit and also the comment, I think the honourable thing is that you should participate in the discussion and defend your edit and comment. I have already explained in my edit summaries and in my above comment too why I think those tags are necessary. Haven’t I? Just saw the **blog**. Huiii Hilda horrible!!!!! Look what they are saying about WP now. Paid editing and all. And a caste article and some of the regular editors and even an administrator getting mentioned. I suppose you now know how I felt when I was being made into a sock and a meat and a canvassed ed and a “caste warrior” and what not. Isn’t it hororible? Paid editing and all, group trying to control caste article! With and admin too! Do you think it is proper for you to continue around these articles even after these things and even after I have requested you for fresh eyes being allowed here and even after Atama said “step back”? And I also don't like the section heading which you have put up on my talk page. You have said something similar with a similar heading to Sitush too? Haven't you? Otherwise I feel you are behaving in an uneven fashion. Sitush too performed a revert. Didn't he? Qwirixian, if you can copy the refs, I will be satisfied. You say it can be done. Then do it. I say it can’t be done. There are no refs which could support the line in the infobox. And Sitush, why do you say one thing now but something else in your edit summary. [10] Why do you say things which cannot be defended? And what harm did you see even if the tags remained?-MangoWong (talk) 15:05, 24 July 2011 (UTC) And Sitush, please also explain how BRD could run against me putting up those tags. I don't see anything in BRD which prevents me from puttting up those tags. Why do you connect things which have no connection with each other?-MangoWong (talk) 15:37, 24 July 2011 (UTC)

Please allow me to summarize things here. Boing! said zebedee reverts my edit, but now says he won't defend his edit.[11] Qwirixian says citations can be provided and they are already there in the article. If so, what's the difficulty in putting up in the infobox? I see this as a rubbish claim. Sitush says something about BRD being against my edit. I see this too as a rubbish claim. If folks have only no-good reasons for reverting those tags, why revert them at all? Only to prevent others from editing the article?-MangoWong (talk) 16:11, 24 July 2011 (UTC)

• It really is a shame I had to protect the article to force a discussion here, but as it seems like you folks have now hit on some kind of compromise, I have unprotected the article so that it can be done. But should further edit-wars break out, or further IPs come in to make clear anti-consensus edits, I will take whatever admin action I feel is needed at the time -- Boing! said Zebedee (talk) 16:17, 24 July 2011 (UTC)

The shameful thing is that they were reverted at all in the first place, wasting everyones time for nothing.-MangoWong (talk) 16:25, 24 July 2011 (UTC)

And what about the **blog**. You didn't give any opinions about it. Is it not a reason for you to not hang around these around these articles? Presently others are getting named and identified as a group. I have to be concerned that if the perception that this group is taking undue interest is not broken, others can also get named.-MangoWong (talk) 16:36, 24 July 2011 (UTC)

The blog has no relevance to this issue over citation tags and protection of the article. If you believe it is an issue worth pressing, then feel free to present it at the appropriate forum - WP:ANI is where it was last discussed, but I would caution you about the potential Boomerang effect of making or propagating personal attacks -- Boing! said Zebedee (talk) 16:53, 24 July 2011 (UTC)

PS: Re: You have said something similar with a similar heading to Sitush too? Haven't you? Otherwise I feel you are behaving in an uneven fashion. - it's only a few clicks away, so why not go have a look for yourself, eh? -- Boing! said Zebedee (talk)

Boing! said Zebedee. Sitush seems to be saying that you told him that I agree to some source which could support the material in the infobox.[12] Did you say something like that? I never agreed to it.-MangoWong (talk) 17:57, 24 July 2011 (UTC)

Since you say that I should have a look at it, I think you have put the notice there too. I had to ask you because I do not like visiting some talk pages.-MangoWong (talk) 18:00, 24 July 2011 (UTC)

A bit of long needed copy editing. Please check and don't revert unless justified.Yogesh Khandke (talk) 18:11, 24 July 2011 (UTC)

Like I wrote earlier, we don't say Kurmis are this and that, Dalton, Jogendranath or the other fellow does, no one will argue with us not. Right Zebedee?Yogesh Khandke (talk) 18:13, 24 July 2011 (UTC)

Also dubious in the infobox means that north, south ... are not states.Yogesh Khandke (talk) 18:14, 24 July 2011 (UTC)

Although you can rely on me not to revert it. I may still object as long as a single instance of that word remains.-MangoWong (talk) 18:16, 24 July 2011 (UTC)

Hey I did no editing except section titles, only layout, and put the dubious tag.Yogesh Khandke (talk) 18:19, 24 July 2011 (UTC)

• Just to clarify, my only comments where above, where I noted I had unprotected the article - I'd though we had an agreement to add a citation to the Infobox taken from the body of the text. Clearly there is now some dispute as to the applicability of the chosen source, so I would suggest that that now needs to be discussed - and I see Sitush has started such a discussion below. -- Boing! said Zebedee (talk) 19:49, 24 July 2011 (UTC)

Sitush seems to be claiming that I agreed to Pande. I did not. If I agreed to any source, please show it here. When you unprotected the article saying that there was an agreement, I was surprised how this agreement came about. I certainly did not agree to Pande. I never even discussed it. Did I?-MangoWong (talk) 20:32, 24 July 2011 (UTC)

FAQ

I have added a FAQ section at the top of the page. It is currently empty but I have one proposal to make for inclusion, and hopefully it is not too controversial.

In common with other India-related caste/community articles, we get a lot of people posting - especially IPs - who tell us that they know their community is/was X or that a certain members of that community is world famous, or that the entire article is wrong and they fancy a rant about it ... You get the idea. Nothing wrong with any of those messages if they provide some support for their point(s). IPs, in particular, usually do not in my experience. It wastes time and quite often can lead to bickering. Can we word something short and sweet for the FAQ that draws attention to this issue and points them to WP:V, WP:RS etc.?

Obviously, once we get the Shudra issue out of the way then that will be going in there, together with a link to the discussion and perhaps even an extended reading list which shows the items examined + quotes (as per the suggestion made above by Christopher Connor). This will happen regardless of the outcome of the discussion, ie: if by some remote chance Shudra gets turned down for the article then the FAQ would reflect that.

If someone then turns up and clearly could find the answer to their query/argument in the FAQ, then it is a simple one-line reply. - Sitush (talk) 00:50, 25 July 2011 (UTC)

This that

(1)The current consensus is that we need statements from reliable sources that say Kurmis are Kshatriya or Kurmi's are not Shudra, and then those may be included provided the sources are good with mention of spatial and temporal boundaries of these statements. (2)Sitush perhaps we may have the statement that the great might Governor, passed an order rescinding the earlier order that stated that Kurmis were depressed?????Yogesh Khandke (talk) 08:51, 17 July 2011 (UTC)

Even if you bring statements from wp:RS that say Kurmis are Martian, still that wouldn't be good to disprove that they were Shudra, as that would be Synthesis, am I right MV, S, Zee & Co.?????? (2)So Thisthat2011 please dont waste your energy and your time. I hope it is clear.Yogesh Khandke (talk) 08:56, 17 July 2011 (UTC)

• Tons of statements.Yogesh Khandke (talk) 17:57, 17 July 2011 (UTC)

The article already covers both sides of the kshatriya/shudra debate. Finding a definitive "they are not shudra" will not work, since there are so many sources saying that they were shudra. Equally, finding one statement saying that they were kshatriya will not work. It might get mentioned but then again it might not - as Qwyrxian says above, we need to be careful not to give too much weight to this issue.

Since we cannot make sense of what the governor meant by "depressed", it is probably a little pointless including it. We could end up with people insisting that Kurmi took an early version of valium or something (joke)

If there is a clear statement from a RS that Kurmi are/were Martian then that would not be SYNTH. But it might fail WP:FRINGE. - Sitush (talk) 09:01, 17 July 2011 (UTC)

Agriculturist are classified as Vaisya by Varna (Hinduism),so Kurmis should be Vaisya and not Shudra. --Ajneesh Katiyar (talk) 09:10, 17 July 2011 (UTC)

Not unless reliable sources say that they were vaishya. Do you know of any? Honestly, this concept of WP:RS does not seem to be understood and I cannot for the life of me work out what is so difficult about it. - Sitush (talk) 09:17, 17 July 2011 (UTC)

Well we cannot use depressed because you don't want to know what depressed is. And you keep using terms like Shudra without anyone having the vaguest idea what they mean to convey. Very good.Yogesh Khandke (talk) 17:57, 17 July 2011 (UTC)

Sigh. We have multiple reliable sources all saying 'shudra'. We have one reliable source saying 'depressed'. No-one, not anyone, in all the discussions about 'shudra' has said that it has more than one definition; however, it has been pointed out from the get-go that 'depressed' has several.

You have had ages to come up with decent sources and after all this time all you can manage is the same thing, over and over again. Not multiple, but single; out of all the millions of words written about the subject in the English language. And yes, I have seen MangoWong's attempt to whip up a storm with non-English sources and self-translations - it still will not get rid of the shudra term. - Sitush (talk) 18:22, 17 July 2011 (UTC)

We really need a class on how verifiability works. I don't think I've tried to do it on this page, so let me give it one shot: to everyone who wants to add any information to this article: Wikipedia works on a very simple principle, which is that we have no interest in trying to figure out what is true. Instead, all we try to do is figure out what is verifiable. That is, our articles are not based on what we think is true, what our parents told us is true, or what one single source that we prefer says. Instead, we look at all available reliable sources, looking especially to the best quality sources that provide overviews of many different sources, and see what they have to say. Generally speaking, our gold standard for a topic like this one is going to be relatively recent (say, past several dozen years) academic journals or high quality books from reputable publishing houses (that means things like university press). Other sources may help, but when we look at older sources, sources by publishers we don't know, etc., we have to be very careful how we evaluate them; sometimes, we even reject them if they don't appear reliable enough. One specific thing that will not be good reliable sources for these types of articles: mythic/religious/poetic texts, which we call primary sources. If we have a secondary academic source that analyzes the original primary document, we can use that as a reference, but not the original primary document itself. After we have a good picture of what the sources say, we summarize that information. Under no circumstances to we, however, try to analyze the information. So, for example, if we have a source that says "Group X were once farmers" and another source that says "Many farmers of a certain time were Shudra", we cannot say "Because of these two sources, they were classified as Shudra". That is a form of what Wikipedia calls original research. Really, any time you ever try to figure something out, analyze something, combine multiple sources together to derive something none of them said individually, all of that is original research and not allowed. I know that this probably sounds weird, especially if you have any academic experience at all, since even what high school students do would often be considered original research by Wikipedia. But it comes down to what it means to be an encyclopedia instead of a publisher of new ideas.

Now, I have no idea if this helps anyone. Two things that anyone who has questions should do: read the linked policy/guideline pages, which cover all of this in more detail, and ask questions. If you have a general question about policy, it might be easier if you take it to my talk page (and, depending on the question, I may direct you elsewhere if I think you can get a better answer than I can give). If it's specifically about how to interpret policy for this article, then keep the question here. Qwyrxian (talk) 18:40, 17 July 2011 (UTC)

Was the "Varna system" used at all during the long islamic rule ? To me Kurmi, Kunbi, Maratha are tribes / castes. Unfortunately, brahmins have tended to regard all non-brahmins as shudra because Parshuram had destroyed the Kshatriya population 21 times. During a colonial census , I think that of 1890, castes were allowed to rename themselves and hence the scramble to get Kshatriya status. The Brahmins during Shivaji's time regarded him as shudra too but on paying a fee to a learned brahmin, he was able to get Kshtriya status. I don't know why castes are so preoccupied with being given the kshatriya status ? As Shivaji's example shows, one can always buy that status on the basis of your achievements or with money or a combination of both. I read somewhere that in Delhi, poor brahmins have resorted to cleaning toilets. Does anyone need a sanction from these fellows to get a perceived higher social status ?Jonathansammy (talk) 22:10, 18 July 2011 (UTC)

Jonathansammy: everything you just wrote is a perfect example of what I and others are talking about. This page is not a forum to discuss caste issues and resolve real-world issues, to express our opinion, or whatever. It's a place to discuss improvements to the article, which must be based on verification in reliable sources. Our own opinions need to be left off Wiki; there are thousands of other places on the internet where you can debate the issues. Qwyrxian (talk) 01:06, 19 July 2011 (UTC)

(edit conflict)::(1)Quyrxian the example "Group X were once farmers" and another source that says "Many farmers of a certain time were Shudra", we cannot say "Because of these two sources, they were classified as Shudra", that you have given is wp:OR in general and wp:SYNTHESIS to be specific, so what? (2)Please assume good faith, at least I don't want to push anything that has a reasonable argument against it. (3)Sitush you are wrong, Shudra like for example depressed is just a word, it can be used as an adjective, just as it is used as a noun, in that it means insignificant. Thisthat has acquaintance with Sanskrit, he can help us with it. (4)Actually I started on the wrong foot here, all my arguments are specific to the group of sentences, that you and MV considered were totally tangential, which it has been demonstrated they aren't. But let us drop that. (5)Q you are again wrong, Jonathan is trying to tell you, that Hinduism didn't have one church, and unlike other religions a Hindu could choose his church, so when Shivaji had a problem because Church A did not consider him fit for coronation, as he was considered a Shudra, as Parshuram got rid of the Kshatriyas - which means that in Kaliyug, the only Varnas left are Brahman and Shudra, he just found (not founded) another church B and another priest that came up with another interpretation of the texts and he was coronated. (5)Jonhathan is not using this page as a forum. Sitush and co have demonstrated a reasonable lack acquaintance with the subject. Perhaps Jonhathat's text helps them, understand how the system worked. (7)So Sitush, Quyrxian, MV and Zee, and Co, let us start with a clean slate, please qualify the terms you would like to use, Shudra or Kshatriya or any other. There is no doubt that Kurmis or the many other castes were called Shudra one time/ some time, and they preferred not to consider themselves as such, and so used the self - designation Kshatriya. In the mean while, the only classification that could be used is Other Backward Class, about which there should be no argument, if its spatial and temporal sense be specified. The later means inclusion of where and when were the Kurmis designated as OBC, as OBC is a classification which is given by State and Central governments separately at different times, a Kurmi from one taluka may be an OBC, a Kunbi from another may not be. (8)Another clarification that I would like to make Sitush is that like depressed, Kurmi or Kunbi too are generic terms which mean peasant or farmer, that is why you come across terms like Agri - Kunbi, to demonstrate that Agri are a farming community. (9)That is why Sitush and Co, we need to have a general acquaintance of the subject, or we could end up being Blind men of Indostan, which of-course can be gained, but that should happen, before you go around editing scores of articles (which I understand you have done, I haven't looked it up myself, it is based on barnstars etc.).Yogesh Khandke (talk) 04:40, 19 July 2011 (UTC)

Jonathansammy is right, although it's not a forum to discuss caste issues but it shows the community in bad light. it seems that claiming Kshatriya status was a crime. Brahmin is just another Hindu community and they don't have right to declare someone Kshatriya or Sudra.I think the Kurmi movement was a social reforming movement and it eleminated unequality in Hindu society. The article should reflect All India Kurmi Kshatriya Mahasabha in good taste. Kurmis are not lesser Hindus than Brahmins. only religious authorities like Shankaracharya have the right to certify anyone Sudra or Kshatriya. and it's our responsibility to show the ground reality,the clear picture.

--Ajneesh Katiyar (talk) 04:21, 19 July 2011 (UTC) Mr. Katiyar, and what caste do you think the Shankaracharya of various Peeth belong to ? When I say brahmins, I hope it was implicit that I was talking about learned brahmins or Pandits, Math chiefs etc. Shivaji was not declared Kshatriya by a Shankaracharya but a Pandit from Kashi. I will add the reference to that later.Jonathansammy (talk) 15:09, 25 July 2011 (UTC)

In Kurmi, a Hindu Jati, sources that refer to views from Hindu religious clerics or Pandits about Kshatriya status of Kurmis should not be ignored selectively. Ex: 1, 2, 3.

The first link says clearly that

"When reformers were not citing the extensive Vaishnava credentials of their jati members, they were marshaling a wide array of sectarian institutional sanction to back their claims of kshatriya status. In Maharashtra and Gujarat, associated Kunbis and Kanbis solicited and received this certification from the head abbot of the Dasnami order in Nasik, northeast of Bombay, and from his Ramanuji counterpart in Kanchi, southwest of Madras.[75] Kurmis of the Gangetic north, however, sought the Vaishnava backing of Radhacharan Goswami next hit of Vrindaban, who presided over a debate of Banaras scholars on the subject of Kurmi status that took place under the auspices of the Kurmi association of Bharehta village south of Banaras in 1907.[76] In defense of the Kurmi claim to kshatriya status, previous hit Radhacharan Goswami next hit cited a range of positive attributes, including the fact that “this jati has built many temples in which brahmans have performed the image consecrations and wherein all people pay respectful homage to God by taking the water with which the feet of the image has been washed.”[77] Caste-based temple construction occurred most prominently in the major Vaishnava pilgrimage centers. In Ayodhya, for instance, a multitude of “caste temples” erected in this century would buttress the kshatriya status claims of jati organizations; these include temples built by Kurmis, Yadavs, Kahars, Kayasths, Barhais, Malis, Murais (Kushvahas), Sonars, and many others."

The second link clearly states that

"Chaudhari, Kurmi Kshatriyatva Darpan, 8–11. The author argues that the true name of Ramchandra’s Suryavamsh (solar lineage) was Kurmvamsh (Kurm lineage) and that the Kurmi descendants of Kush and Lav were in Gujarat described as Kushvamshi Kurmis and Lavvamshi Kurmis, respectively, whereas in Awadh they referred to themselves indiscriminately as Kurmvamshi Kurmis. Chaudhari further describes an ancient sage named Kurm whose descendants merged with the Chandravamsh (lunar lineage) of Krishna. According to Chaudhari Dipnarayan Sinha, Kurmi Kshatriya Nirnay [Rulings of Kurmi Kshatriyas] (Chunar: n.p., 1937–38), 81–83, this particular legend was also cited in support of Kurmi kshatriya identity by Radharcharan Goswami, who is described as the chairman of pandits (scholars) of Banaras and Vrindavan: “‘In the beginning a king named Prannath was born into the lineage of a sage named Kurmm. . . .’ From this 64th verse of the 33rd section of the Sahyadrikhand of the Skanda Purana, the Kurmvamsh is counted among kshatriyas.” Chaudhari, Kurmi Kshatriyatva Darpan, 11, also includes as Kurmi progenitors Raja Kuru and Raja Yadu, whose early descendants (the Kauravs and Yadavs, respectively) figure prominently in the Mahabharata; he details (11–12) several other miscellaneous lineages specific to western India."

The third source says that

"The Ramanandi sect traced the Kurmis' ancestry to Luv, giving them a Kshatriya status. Similarly, Koeris, another influential backward caste, traced their origin to Kush."

These are facts mentioned in the sources. Editors on Wikipedia can not decide how trustworthy the cleric class of Hindus were to decide in which specific manner, etc. ..असक्तः सततं कार्य कर्म समाचर | असक्तः हि आचरन् कर्म.. Humour Thisthat2011 07:04, 19 July 2011 (UTC)

Starting for Yogesh's comments at 04:40, and answering those per the numbering used

1. what is your point? This particular piece of synthesis does not occur in the article as far as I can see

2. AGF has been and continues to be assumed in your case, but it is wearing a little thin due to the continued failure to understand policies and guidelines. Given that you are clearly not unintelligent, this failure takes on the appearance of tendentiousness

3. I am not wrong: the reliable sources are quite clear in how they are using the term, ie: as a noun representing the ritual rank. Whether it can be used as an adjective is irrelevant and muddying the waters. Thisthat's is not the only person here at WP with a knowledge of Sanskrit but neither is it particularly relevant since we are not using Sanskrit sources and so do not need to translate them.

4. I am glad that you have agreed to drop something, at least.

5. I for one am aware that Hinduism has many deities and "churches". It is irrelevant to this article and Qwyrxian is correct to point out that Jonathan was using this as a forum, as indeed it sometimes seems you are doing also

6. is covered as (5) - duplicated number

7. there is nothing to clarify. The article reflects the issues surrounding shudra and kshatriya. All you have to do is provide a couple of reliable sources to turn a "claim" into a "fact". You have been informed of this on multiple occasions and still you have not come up with anything.

Ajneesh Katiyar is just soapboxing. There is nothing in that contribution which adds to the article. Personal perceptions are irrelevant to Wikipedia. Thisthat2011's contribution, yet again, confirms nothing - it is merely more evidence of the claim not being accepted other than by a limited sect of the community. - Sitush (talk) 10:47, 19 July 2011 (UTC)

(1)Well the point is if you want it to be said explicitly don't teach. (2)See (5) below. (3)Shudra needs to be defined in the context of Kurmi. (4)What I wrote has been substantiated. (Also see point 7 of the original list). (5) About (5) and (5 or 6)Jonathan's explanation is of great relevance to this article in general and to the discussion in particular. See the spellings may be wrong, or the methods may skirt rules, or the grammar be less than perfect, or the style ackward, if someone is saying something, one could sometimes pause and reassess, and look at the matter a fresh, one could wonder, well Jonathan is saying xxxx, if he finds a connection, perhaps there may be one, if Yogesh says a Hindu could choose his church well there could be some thing constructive in it regarding the topic and the issues discussed, if the article and comments make Ajneesh Katiyar to say what he has, perhaps one could try to understand what his issue is, and not brush him aside as a soapbox. That is AGF, which is sadly lacking in manifestation. (6)You are skirting the one issue that can be dealt with objectively, the OBC status, about which there is a great deal of objectivity. (7)If you fail to understand it is going to be a rough ride ahead for all of us.Yogesh Khandke (talk)

(edit conflict):::Sitush: I would like you to look around Thisthat2011's comments aboveYour reply is amusing to an extent, so is your contention that "a compilation of local reports, often differing in both standard and content from one area to another" which is perhaps because, as already discussed, caste system in India is not Iron clad., something that you & co, seem to ignore, and I won't say that you ignore it despite you having some brains, as it is not good mannerly to speculate how much brain anyone has. ...not iron clad, is the key, that is the whole thing you fail to understand.Yogesh Khandke (talk) 11:54, 19 July 2011 (UTC)

Ignoring all the stuff that I am simply fed up of answering any further, OBC is already mentioned - what is your problem with that? - Sitush (talk) 11:45, 19 July 2011 (UTC)

My comment about the compilation of local reports was because TT was trying to use a comment specifically about Malawa as a source for "the entire caste is kshatriya". It was an abuse of the source, even if we ignore the others issues regarding that cherry-picked statement. However, the sources provided which say that Kurmi were Shudra are explicit in saying that this was so for the entire community. Look, Yogesh, I really am fed up. You are just going round and round, wasting a lot of valuable time and achieving nothing for it. Can we not just move on? I know that MangoWong is trying to "advise" at least one contributor here about how to deal with me but I do hope that you are not being taken in by that "advice" also, because much of it is poor and the manner in which it is being expressed has an almost subversive feel to it, especially bearing in mind that MangoWong has consistently refused to actually comment on this page itself. I am starting to think that there may be a reason for that, perhaps relating to a topic ban of some sort. - Sitush (talk) 12:01, 19 July 2011 (UTC)

Somethings I can speak for myself, for the reflection part which perhaps one could do, I didn't expect a reply right away in a minute, but perhaps one could ponder, in the mean time I have declared for myself that I won't push without agreement. One could wonder perhaps the other side has some substance. I don't know what MangoWong said, could you help?Yogesh Khandke (talk) 12:09, 19 July 2011 (UTC)

Let me focus on the parts where my name is mentioned above: On (1), my point is that we cannot take two sources, add them together, and claim that they mean a third thing. I was trying to explain what OR means on Wikipedia. It's only an example. On (5), I am certain that I am absolutely correct. Jonathansammy tells an interesting story about how one specific person got Kshatriya status. Well, that's an interesting story (and, would of course, need a reliable source before we considered including it anywhere on Wikipedia), but it says nothing about what should go into this article, because it's unrelated to this topic. Jonathansammy provides us with his opinion about Brahmin; well, his opinion is irrelevant, because we only care what reliable sources think. And he provides other unverified claims. None of this helps us write the article. Sitush is right, that this is rapidly becoming futile, because everyone is talking about ideas and caste systems and opinions, and almost no one is talking about sources. And when we talk about sources, most of the time it's without actually analyzing whether or not the source in question is actually reliable per WP:RS. And even when we talk about sources, they get distorted or synthesized with other sources. And we end up repeating the same things over and over again. To me, looking right now, the article seems quite subtle and careful--it doesn't say they are Shudra; rather, it says that they have historically been called Shudra (with sources) and it says that they also claim Kshatriya status (and otherwise reject the label of Shudra). In order to remove those statements, you need to either demonstrate that those sources aren't reliable, or that the general consensus of scholars holds those claims to no longer be valid. Otherwise, you're just expressing your own personal opinion, which is not a part of the Wikipedia building process. Finally, Yogesh, you asked what I think the article should say. Regarding the varna status, I basically want it to say what it says right now, until reliable sources are provided that say it should say something different. Qwyrxian (talk) 12:27, 19 July 2011 (UTC)

(od)Qwyrxian please try to see the connection. Take your own time.Yogesh Khandke (talk) 13:37, 19 July 2011 (UTC)

link about coronation of Shivaji. A reliable source, according to which he was neither a Kshatriya nor a 'twice-born', but was from a Shudra caste, though the Bhonsale themselves claimed descent from 'Sisodia' (Kshatriya) clan. The Kshatriya status was to be established to the pundits of the Banaaras;(Not Wikipedia editors). 'Such an Authoritative pundit' was Vishweshvar or Ganga Bhatt, one of the great Sanskrit theologian, controvertialist, a master of four Vedas & six philosophies, scriptures, etc.(not an editor of Wikipedia!). After initial objection, he accepted Kshatriya status from Maharanas of Udaipur of the Solar line... There were two functions, one Vedic by Ganga Bhatt and a Tentric by Nischal Puri... ...gone were ideas that there were no Kshatriya left after Parashurama's innihilation of Kshatriyas... ...Shivaji assumed titles like 'Kshatriya Kulavanta' (Head of Kshatriya race), amongst others...

The source says these very clearly. What is not clear is why this clarity is ignored. As I mentioned earlier, during Colonial times many Kshatriyas lost the protector/administrator status, and post-colonial times the Varna system is mostly left unrecognized by statute in India. Ignoring sources that note recognition of Kahstriya status clearly by Hindu cleric class has left the page much less exhaustive, being a page on a Hindu Jati. ..असक्तः सततं कार्य कर्म समाचर | असक्तः हि आचरन् कर्म.. Humour Thisthat2011 16:33, 19 July 2011 (UTC)

I have moved Thisthat's contribution immediately above, for chronological reasons. My query is: does this source refer to Kurmi as being Kshatriya? If so, where? - Sitush (talk) 16:43, 19 July 2011 (UTC)

My reply was regarding comments from Qwyrxian as "Jonathansammy tells an interesting story about how one specific person got Kshatriya status. Well, that's an interesting story (and, would of course, need a reliable source before we considered including it anywhere on Wikipedia) ... Jonathansammy provides us with his opinion about Brahmin; well, his opinion is irrelevant, because we only care what reliable sources think. And he provides other unverified claims. None of this helps us write the article.", so that was source of it. ..असक्तः सततं कार्य कर्म समाचर | असक्तः हि आचरन् कर्म.. Humour Thisthat2011 19:33, 19 July 2011 (UTC)

Fellow Editors, For this particular article, all I am advocating is that the classification section be removed and any Shudra/Kshatriya claims moved to the main body. Nothing more, nothing else. I included brahmins, Shivaji, Parshuram in my earlier posts to give some background as to why some brahmins used to think of all other non-brahmin Hindu communities being Shudra and how powerful or men of achievement like Shivaji could obtain Kshatriya status for themselves and/or their community by finding a willing (brahmin) Pundit to prepare the "case". I have not included any references because there must be hundreds of those available on the web. Also this is a discussion page, not the main article! Jonathansammy (talk) 15:09, 25 July 2011 (UTC)

My apologies. I didn't check whether the classification box was removed before writing the above. Jonathansammy (talk) 15:13, 25 July 2011 (UTC)

Semi-protected

I've semi-protected the article again, as we have the IP's back blanking content without explanation - same IP range as last time. (Removing content without explanation is a general policy violation - there are even standard warning templates for it - so protecting against such abuse is not a specific content issue, and so I believe my action does not breach WP:INVOLVED) -- Boing! said Zebedee (talk) 11:10, 25 July 2011 (UTC)

Edit Request

Can someone with a mop-and-bucket please make a small correction in the first paragraph? The last sentence includes the word "varna" in its Hindu context, but links to the Bulgarian city: Varna. Please dab the link to Varna (Hinduism). Thanks, Doc Tropics 18:50, 25 July 2011 (UTC)

 Done (though the article is only semi-protected, so any autoconfirmed editor could have done it) -- Boing! said Zebedee (talk) 19:35, 25 July 2011 (UTC)

Thanks for the quick fix, I figured you'd be watching an article you had protected (and if I'd noticed it was only semi, I would have done it myself). Doc Tropics 01:09, 26 July 2011 (UTC)

Proposed template

Kurmi कुर्मी
Classification	Other Backward Class
Religions	Hinduism
Languages	Kurmali, Hindi, Chhattisgarhi, Marathi, Konkani, Gujarati, Oriya, Telugu, South Indian languages and dialects
Populated states	Northern India, Western India, Central India, South India
Subdivisions	Kurmi, Singraur, Umrao, Awadhiya, Kochyasa, Gangwar, Kanbi, Kapu, Katiyar, Kulambi, Jaiswar, Kulwadi, Kutumbi, Patel, Singhror, Choduary, Sachan, Verma, Artarvavanshi,(Niranjan)

— Preceding unsigned comment added by Yogesh Khandke (talk • contribs) 12:15, 19 July 2011 (UTC)

Request to MangoWango

Sir I request you to take a deep breath and step back a little while. That there was a caste system in India isn't anybody but India's fault. Like Jonathansmaay said here earlier, according to the Puranas Parshuram killed all the Kshatriyas, so in Kaliyug there are only two Varnas, Brahman and Shudra. (I don't know what happened to the Vaishyas, they perhaps auto-vapourised). Now you wouldn't call Obama the first negro president of the United States, like that, Wikipedia shouldn't classify anybody as Shudra against his will. Accepted. But if there is evidence that xxxx was considered as Shudra in reliable sources, then a Wikipedia article is going to reflect that, balancing it against wp:UNDUE and wp:FRINGE. See Wikipedia has images of a person, for which I think Wikipedia is braver than most. See I am not even mentioning that person, I don't want to have my head blown off. Yogesh Khandke (talk) 02:23, 26 July 2011 (UTC)

I have removed links to Shudra and have removed the word Jati, the former I have done as the term is ambiguous and the article doesn't deal with its subject well. Let readers figure out the term based on the context as provided in the citations. That will limit the meaning of the term to the context. Why did I remove Jati, well we have a good English word community for it.Yogesh Khandke (talk) 03:44, 26 July 2011 (UTC)

Qwxiyian please let Matthew/ Mango/ Thisthat others have a look at the edits too.Yogesh Khandke (talk) 03:49, 26 July 2011 (UTC)

(ec+2):And my request to you: stop editing the article to change phrasing in a way that directly contradicts the current consensus. Talking here is critical; that doesn't mean that you just talk and talk, and, after your suggested changed are rejected, that you go ahead and make them anyway. When dozens of reliable sources say that they are Shudra, that means that they are generally considered Shudra (unless you can provide even more sources that indicate that they aren't). Another similar edit like that and I'll go request another, longer period of full protection at WP:RFPP.

(after ec): Also, we also provide wikilinks for information that readers are likely to not understand. Removing that is just flat out trying to hide relevant information from the reader.

(ec+2) MangoWong can look at the edits in the history. He may find that he likes the edits, but he also can't deny that the edits violate both the current consensus as well as the obvious idea that we wikilink unfamiliar words. You have been reverted. Standard editing policy requires you discuss the issue her until you achieve consensus. Attempting to force your edits in is edit warring. Qwyrxian (talk) 04:02, 26 July 2011 (UTC)

All expecially especially Boing Zeebedee: Please look at this version of the article, we need a clinical treatment to the subject. I think the changes I have made try to do that. Please look at this version and comment I have removed links to Shudra and have removed the word Jati, the former I have done as the term is ambiguous and the article doesn't deal with its subject well. Let readers figure out the term based on the context as provided in the citations. Yogesh Khandke (talk) 04:20, 26 July 2011 (UTC)

If Shudra has problems, raise them there, and get a consensus to fix them. You can't remove wikilinks to a page simply because you don't like it. Pretty much the only rationale to remove the wikilink would be if you either thought it highly likely the article was going to be deleted (even then, it's probably better to wait until after deletion), or if it violates WP:OVERLINK (not the case here). Your statement here also does not adequately reflect your changes: you also changed the idea that Shudra is the generally accepted term to linking it to one and only one source, despite the dozen or so sources above that say the same thing. It's disheartening that you seem to forget the need for consensus over and over again. Qwyrxian (talk) 04:27, 26 July 2011 (UTC)

I agree with Qwyrxian. At best, Yogesh's edits were designed to dilute the article in ways that are contrary to policy and conventin; at worst they were an attempt deliberately to circumvent. The article is far from perfect and may never become so, but adding further imperfections achieves nothing. - Sitush (talk) 11:50, 26 July 2011 (UTC)

• And you can't ask me not to look, Yogesh - I'm watching this article and will act in an admin capacity if I see repeated policy violations (regardless of the content itself). Blocks and page protection to prevent edit-warring are two of tools I have at my disposal, and I will use them if I think it necessary -- Boing! said Zebedee (talk) 12:05, 26 July 2011 (UTC)

Actually, Boing, I think he was saying "especially", not "except". Meaning that he was asking you specifically to look. I was confused at first myself, but that's how I eventually read the whole thing in context. Qwyrxian (talk) 12:13, 26 July 2011 (UTC)

Curses, yes, I'd misread "expecially" - you have my apologies, Yogesh. However, I still won't be basing any actions on content itself, only on policy -- Boing! said Zebedee (talk) 12:48, 26 July 2011 (UTC)

Given past situations of "I didn't see that", may I point out to Yogesh et al of the discussion at Talk:Kurmi#Source_for_Shudra. - Sitush (talk) 14:48, 26 July 2011 (UTC)

I have removed links to Shudra... as the term is ambiguous and the article doesn't deal with its subject well - Seriously? There's an entire section (most or all of which I researched, wrote and cited) entitled "Varna status debate" that specifically gets into the issue. Again, in all honesty it seems you're grasping at straws to find any way to remove literally one word from the article, and in the process contributed to substantial hassle up to and including running to the founder of Wikipedia with crackpot allegations off an anonymous blog. At a certain point, will it begin to sink in that there is indeed a Shudra aspect to Kurmi history? Nobody is saying that's the sole defining characteristic of the class, just noting that varna is historically significant and though politically sensitive cannot be "hand waved" away. MatthewVanitas (talk) 15:50, 26 July 2011 (UTC)

Clarification for MatthewVanitas:In the above itialised text the article, refers to Shudra, please re-read and share your views.Yogesh Khandke (talk) 17:19, 27 July 2011 (UTC)

In that case, I agree with Q's comments at 04:27, 26 July 2011. You can't just remove a link because you dislike the quality of the destination article. In whatever case, not that it matters at all, but Shudra's primary fault is that it's too short; given the expertise claimed here it should be easy work to improve Shudra. MatthewVanitas (talk) 17:27, 27 July 2011 (UTC)

Edit request from 148.177.1.213, 27 July 2011

Kurmi is a kshatriya caste . Reference link below http://en.wiki.x.io/wiki/Shahu_IV 148.177.1.213 (talk) 19:08, 27 July 2011 (UTC)

Have you not seen the massive, massive amount of discussion of this above your post? Please read the above discussions to familiarise yourself with the issue. MatthewVanitas (talk) 19:58, 27 July 2011 (UTC)

No MV you do a reassessment. You are mis-handling to whole issue.Yogesh Khandke (talk) 16:52, 28 July 2011 (UTC)

Surely, if you do not have confidence in MV or myself or (insert name here) then the best way forward is for you to do some work in researching. You apparently know how to use GBooks etc to its best advantage. So stop moaning and do it, present the results (again) and we'll go through them. Can we just have one day when you do not spread bile around here and bring up that crazy blog, as you have done yet again today). The fact that you believe that blog may well be an indicator that you do not have good judgement, and certainly you do not AGF as you should. - Sitush (talk) 18:27, 28 July 2011 (UTC)

Kurmi Sub-divisions /sub-castes

This article needs to expand on sub-divisions of the Kurmis. According to anthropologists, the Kurmis of Uttar Pradesh are quite distinct in appearance from the ones from Bihar and more so from those from Bengal. Thus these are different castes and or racial groups and this needs to be included in the article. In my opinion, adding these details is more important than the Shudra / Kshatriya debate. I will start work on this soon, however, other editors can make a start. Jonathansammy (talk) 00:51, 28 July 2011 (UTC)

It would be fantastic to see that issue expanded upon! I would suggest that you avoid the minefield of the current debates lest it impede your new additions, but provided you have clearly-sourced and NPOV new additions, that would be a great way to improve an article that's a bit stagnant due to debate. MatthewVanitas (talk) 14:12, 28 July 2011 (UTC)

Please delete those lines in first paragraph

Delete aditya panday's book ref. and line "hey are regarded as being historically a Shudra (agricultural) class by academics, and as an Other Backward Class by the Indian central government, which deprecates use of the Hindu varna ritual ranks,[4][3]". Aditya Panday is not a scholar and shudra word is controversial and ambiguous. There is no evidence of kurmi are "shudra". You people should not interfere in a vast community of india. Kurmi are almost 27% of total population. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 122.168.110.234 (talk) 08:39, 27 July 2011 (UTC)

The word Shudra is not controversial by American laws.

Please present reliable sources to clarify the views. ..असक्तः सततं कार्य कर्म समाचर | असक्तः हि आचरन् कर्म.. Humour Thisthat2011 13:31, 28 July 2011 (UTC)

122.168.110.234 I have tried to do some investigation on what you say. I could not find out anything about Aditya Pandey. Could you tell me how you found out that Aditya Pandey is not a scholar? If you can show some convincing reason to believe that Aditya Pandey is not a scholar, it would be against WP:V and WP:RS. It could then be taken down. Otherwise, you can also challenge others to show that Aditya Pandey is a scholar.-MangoWong (talk) 19:03, 29 July 2011 (UTC)

This is totally irrelevant. See the thread above about proposed new sources. It is accepted that Pandey is not the best source for this info. So, rather than comment here, comment there. - Sitush (talk) 19:05, 29 July 2011 (UTC)

Pandey and Risley

I find it interesting that Herbert Risley , the eminent turn of the century colonial anthropologist and chief of 1901 census does not use the term Shudra at all to describe Kurmis whilst a century later, Aditya Pandey, a brahmin does. ( references 8 and 4 respectively). Both references are RS so I do not question their place in the article but still amusing! Jonathansammy (talk) 21:36, 29 July 2011 (UTC)

Can you give us a link? Does he apply varna terms to other castes but not Kurmi? Does he apply a different varna to Kurmi? Some context (and a link) would help note anything interesting here. And besides, as mentioned above, Pandey is nowhere near our strongest quote, but we have dozens of others, so it's not like the Shudra argument hinges on Pandey in the slightest. MatthewVanitas (talk) 21:39, 29 July 2011 (UTC)

Forget it. Risley is not "eminent" anyway, Pandey is being binned and the shudra point is being discussed above. Let's not splinter the discussion, please. - Sitush (talk) 22:14, 29 July 2011 (UTC)

Sitush, please explain why Risley is not eminent ? Has any other census done as much work on cataloging information on castes and sub-castes as the 1901 he was responsible for? MV, Apart from Pandey, what other references in the article mention Shudra status of the Kurmi caste ? The two references I mention are in the article.00:01, 30 July 2011 (UTC)Jonathansammy (talk)

See Talk:Kurmi#Source_for_Shudra - Sitush (talk) 00:05, 30 July 2011 (UTC)

Thanks. As I said in my first post these are bonafide references and I don't question their inclusion. You have an extensive list, however it looks like the majority of Indian authors in the references are brahmins such as Bhattacharya, Sharma etc. Jonathansammy (talk) 00:21, 30 July 2011 (UTC)

It would not surprise me if some are Brahmins, given that historically they have been the most highly educated community & education is still a hot potato in India etc (hence the rights given under the OBC regulations etc). It does not matter because their publishers are known to be reliable (eg: the university presses). By the way, we will usually always prefer a modern reliable source over an old reliable source. - Sitush (talk) 00:32, 30 July 2011 (UTC)

"By the way, we will usually always prefer a modern reliable source over an old reliable source." Please explain.Jonathansammy (talk) 02:12, 30 July 2011 (UTC)

This is going a bit off-track for an article talk page, so my apologies to everyone else.

It kind of goes back to Isaac Newton, I guess. Newton said that his theories depended on him "standing on the shoulders of giants". In other words, the knowledge that he already had was derived from the work of people who preceded him, and without that initial knowledge he would not have been able to step forward because he would instead have had to spend his time discovering what they had discovered (reinventing the wheel, if you like, although of course that was one thing he didn't invent!).

Modern academics etc know of their predecessors' work and can use that, but they also have the benefit of the continuous evolution of the theory of ideas and methodology, as well as additional information. As a consequence, they can re-evaluate the work of their predecessors and often come up with different interpretations. Now, when we're talking about someone like Risley, well, he was working in a "live" situation, assembling & intepreting data about living people who were all around him at the time. It is invariably going to reflect his prejudices in a big way and he is also in a position where he really cannot see the wood for the trees. Furthermore, his ideas were of their time and in many respects have been discredited by more recent studies, who have the benefit of both his work and their hindsight.

Does this make sense? I could write a decent thesis on this ... but won't! One thesis in a lifetime is enough. If you are interested in the general concept then perhaps read Thomas S. Kuhn's The structure of scientific revolutions or a decent book on historiography.- Sitush (talk) 02:56, 30 July 2011 (UTC)

I once prepared a chemical using ultrasound as the power. For 150 years prior to that, it was prepared by heating chemicals in a sealed glass-tube. For my paper, I had to cite the reference to the original method from 1850s by Edward Frankland!

As I have said in one of my postings before, Risley's morphological studies and the conclusions he drew about the similarities and differences between castes were corroborated by more recent genetic studies. Also since independence, the Indian census do not publish information on upper castes or more specifically the numerous sub-castes. So the only way,for example, one can estimate the number of deshastha brahmins is by extrapolating from colonial era numbers. To some extent, I agree with you on old references. Unfortunately, most of us do not have easy access to university libraries and the journals (e.g. South Asia) . So by default, old gbooks end up being the sole source for many articles. Jonathansammy (talk) 03:55, 30 July 2011 (UTC)

It is difficult to be selective about which points are ok and which are not within a source. I am not saying that it cannot be done, but it can get very confusing, very quickly, so it is usually easier to consider it on an overall "it is reliable" or "it is not" basis. Anyway, quirks of Wikipedia aside, if you have any objections to the sources listed in the thread above then go into that bit & say your stuff. Equally, if you are happy with them then please could you say so. You can refer to them by their number, eg: "don't like #1 because ...". I really would like to get the shudra bit wrapped up because we have spent far too long on it these last few weeks. - Sitush (talk) 04:10, 30 July 2011 (UTC)

Perfect ov kurmi biography

Perfect ov kurmi was born 14/11/2000 in Bissaula kurmi local government area. Network:$70 Age:23 at of(2023) 105.112.28.49 (talk) 08:01, 10 February 2023 (UTC)