Talk:Kesi (tapestry)

Requested move 19 November 2020

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

The result of the move request was: Moved to Kesi (tapestry). There is a wide consensus to move the article. Kesi (tapestry) seems like the least bad option. (non-admin closure) Vpab15 (talk) 23:33, 14 December 2020 (UTC)

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K'o-ssu → Kesi (Chinese tapestry) – All recent sources use this. K'o-ssu is the old Wade-Giles transliteration, not used for many decades. Needs disam, as there is Kesi. gbooks search Johnbod (talk) 19:05, 19 November 2020 (UTC) —Relisting. BegbertBiggs (talk) 00:57, 6 December 2020 (UTC)

• Support as nom. Johnbod (talk) 21:47, 19 November 2020 (UTC)
• Kesi (tapestry) should suffice as a disambiguator. No such user (talk) 13:54, 20 November 2020 (UTC)
  • I doubt it - it's not well known. Johnbod (talk) 17:46, 25 November 2020 (UTC)
• Oppose proposed move, support Kesi (tapestry). Since there appear to be no other notable tapestries called Kesi, the proposal involves extra unnecessary dabbing. (t · c) buidhe 05:17, 27 November 2020 (UTC)
  • I don't suppose you actually looked at the article. It is not about an individual tapestry "called kesi", nor about a distinctive technique (since European tapestries use the same), but about tapestry-weave textiles made in China. Maybe Chinese tapestry would be better, with a disamed kesi as a redirect. WP:USEENGLISH after all. I would support that, but oppose Kesi (tapestry). Johnbod (talk) 16:40, 27 November 2020 (UTC)
• Just to be clear, my position (as nominator) is now to Support Chinese tapestry and Oppose Kesi (tapestry) as too unfamiliar. At least no one wants to keep the current title. Johnbod (talk) 15:20, 6 December 2020 (UTC)
  • Sorry Johnbod do you mean that you support Kesi (Chinese tapestry) or just Chinese tapestry? Aza24 (talk) 04:57, 9 December 2020 (UTC)
    • Well I now think Kesi (Chinese tapestry), though it should be a redirect, is too vulnerable to attack by disam purists, so I think Chinese tapestry is the best title. There isn't really a WP:COMMONNAME, and I don't think Kesi (tapestry) works at all. Johnbod (talk) 05:07, 9 December 2020 (UTC)
• Support a move to "Kesi" (we should use pinyin over Wade-Giles except where there's clear evidence that Wade-Giles is more common), no preference on what parenthetical is used. Oppose "Chinese tapestry" as too broad—kèsī is not the only type of tapestry in China. For instance this source discusses wool tapestries in western China. —Granger (talk · contribs) 18:46, 9 December 2020 (UTC)

Got page references there, chief? I don't want to have to read the whole book. Johnbod (talk) 18:50, 9 December 2020 (UTC)

I suppose you mean pp 11-12, and perhaps later ones. Note the book also uses "Chinese tapestry" when it is clear that only silk is meant. I am fine with Chinese silk tapestry. Johnbod (talk) 18:58, 9 December 2020 (UTC)

Sorry, I should have specified page 13. As for "Chinese silk tapestry" – is kèsī the only type of silk tapestry in China? That's an honest question; I don't know the answer. —Granger (talk · contribs) 19:06, 9 December 2020 (UTC)

According to the more recent MMA source given at the end of the article, & I think the older one you give, "kesi" means "tapestry weave in silk" in Chinese, so it should cover all types of Chinese silk tapestry - they distinguish between at least two historical styles within "kesi". The article could also be expanded to cover the (apparently pretty few) remains of wool tapestry if just Chinese tapestry is used, so I think that is still perfectly viable. I am waiting for this to be resolved before expanding the article, for which there are lots of sources (and lovely pics on Commons). Johnbod (talk) 18:15, 10 December 2020 (UTC)

Which page of the recent MMA source defines the term? I couldn't find it on a quick skim. I just checked my dictionary app (Pleco) which defines 缂丝 as "a type of weaving done in fine silks and gold thread by the tapestry method" and "Chinese silk tapestry woven in a pictorial design". —Granger (talk · contribs) 19:39, 10 December 2020 (UTC)

Oh, found it (I was looking at another MMA source – there seem to be three in the article): page 4, "tapestries made of silk and often gold, known as kesi". Britannica's article, also titled "Kesi", says "Chinese silk tapestry woven in a pictorial design." Overall my feeling is still that using "Kesi" as the title is better than a description like "Chinese silk tapestry". "Kesi" makes it clearer that we're identifying a specific tradition/style, most sources seem to give more specific definitions than "Chinese silk tapestry", and most English-language sources seem to rely primarily on the term "kesi"/"ko-ssu". —Granger (talk · contribs) 19:50, 10 December 2020 (UTC)

• Alright, after little research: Kesi is not just tapestry in the commonly understood sense, made for hanging on a wall, but a general-purpose style of artisan weaving. Gbook search shows that it's variously qualified as "textile", "fabric", "weave" and "tapestry". So I suppose something like Kesi (textile) or Kesi (fabric) could be a sufficiently precise and short disambiguator. Anyway, I think most agree that the article should be titled Kesi (something), so I invite the closer to pick up a suitable disambiguator if we don't converge.
  An alternative could be to move this to Kesi and Kesi->Kesi (disambiguation); however, KESI (rapper) looks like a strong contender for PTOPIC, and should probably be title-cased per MOS:TMSTYLE (a point for another discussion). No such user (talk) 14:43, 10 December 2020 (UTC)
  • Eek - "a little research" is a dangerous thing, as WP evidences all too clearly! As the article says, kesi is exactly tapestry, "weft-faced weaving, in which all the warp threads are hidden in the completed work, unlike cloth weaving where both the warp and the weft threads may be visible...", eg brocade, and unlike embroidery and other forms of needlework. It's the technique, not the "style" that makes it kesi. No it's not usually "made for hanging on a wall" (but sometimes it was, in the style of scroll paintings), but nor is it usefully described as "a general-purpose style of artisan weaving", whatever that means. It was fantastically time-consuming for a skilled weaver to produce, and therefore very expensive, and latterly mostly made in Imperial workshops. There are two long and authorative sources given in FR from the Metropolitan MA if you want to do "a little more research". I agree that if "kesi" is used, it can't really be primary. Johnbod (talk) 18:15, 10 December 2020 (UTC)
    • And how that contradicts anything I said? When I proposed "Kesi (tapestry)" you said I doubt it - it's not well known and later and I don't think Kesi (tapestry) works at all. When I sort-of concurred that "tapestry" is a bit exotic indeed, and a layman could easily take it for a "thing hung on the wall", you're now teaching me that kesi is exactly tapestry. Please make up your own mind, and get off your high horse. No such user (talk) 21:10, 10 December 2020 (UTC)
• Support Chinese silk tapestry (or Chinese tapestry if the article is intended to cover all types). Srnec (talk) 14:59, 11 December 2020 (UTC)

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The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.