Talk:Lusaka–Mongu Road

Name of Article

I am not sure this road has ever actually been called the Great West Road. I have lived in Zambia for over 57 years and never heard it referred to by this name my father for 86 years and never called it this. The M20, Landless Corner to Mumbwa, was the original route to the west and is now known as the Old Mumbwa Road. The newer M9, Lusaka to Mongu is usually called the Mumbwa Road, if you are heading from Lusaka, but does not actually pass through Mumbwa and obviously the Lusaka Road if coming from Mongu. I suspect because there is a Great North Road and a Great East Road an assumption has been made that the road to the west from Lusaka was the Great West Road, originally the only way to get to Mongu in Barotseland (Western Province) was from Livingstone in the South and up the Zambezi, even to get to Mankoya (now Kaoma) just west of the Kafue National Park involved a 5 day walk from Mongu, not from Lusaka. The idea of a Great West Road is based on a Lusaka centric view of the history of Northern Rhodesia/Zambia, Lusaka only became the capital in 1935 and immediately prior to that it was Livingstone where there had been a substantial settler /trader community from the late 1800s. With this in mind the route to Mongu was the most direct, up the Zambezi, the route north was the one following the rail line, which only crossed the Zambezi in 1905, and became known as the Great North Road on the Cape to Cairo route, the section Livingstone to Lusaka is now no longer known as the Great North Road. CmVChegutu (talk) 17:58, 30 October 2021 (UTC)

Well, I will try to bring this matter up with some other editors to see if there is a proper name we can give this article, since this "Lusaka-Mumbwa-Kaoma-Mongu Road" (M9) (or even the "Landless Corner-Mumbwa Road"; M20) is not and has never been known as the "Great West Road" to many residents of Zambia. I would suggest changing the name to "M9 road (Zambia)" (the same format as every other Zambian Road Article that I have created), but let us first see how this topic can be discussed. Chils Kemptonian (talk) 21:51, 13 November 2021 (UTC)

Hi, mate. User:CmVChegutu

We recently agreed on a name for this page; but now, another editor has come to change the page name again.

Considering the fact that the "Old Mumbwa Road" (M20) is also mentioned in this article, should we leave the article name as it is? Chils Kemptonian (talk) 19:13, 4 March 2022 (UTC)

Hi, mate. User:CmVChegutu

We recently agreed on a name for this page; but now, another editor has come to change the page name again.

Considering the fact that the "Old Mumbwa Road" (M20) is also mentioned in this article, should we leave the article name as it is? Chils Kemptonian (talk) 11:03, 27 April 2022 (UTC)

HI Chils Kemptonian,

Sorry for the delay in replying. What name do they want to change it to? I think the current name is correct. If you ask any local Zambian they will call it the Mumbwa Road or possibly the Mongu Road. In fact there is now a sign on the new Western Bypass road indicating a junction with the Mumbwa Road. CmVChegutu (talk) 16:47, 22 June 2022 (UTC)

Just a note on the road junction to Mumbwa off the M9, the road from the M9 to Mumbwa is designated the D809, the M20 actually terminates at Mumbwa and does not continue to meet the M9. This is per the Roads and Road Traffic act. The act describes the M9 as "M9 Road T2 at Lusaka-Kafue Hook-Mongu." And the M20 is described as "M20 Road T2 at Landless Corner-Mumbwa" CmVChegutu (talk) 17:03, 22 June 2022 (UTC)

Well, User:TapticInfo changed the name of this article to "M9 road (Zambia)" without considering that the article also describes the M20. After some time, I changed the name back to the current name. Chils Kemptonian (talk) 18:09, 22 June 2022 (UTC)

I suppose to make it consistent with the style of other pages on Zambian roads "M9 road (Zambia)" makes sense. Possibly "M9 road (Zambia) Lusaka–Mongu". There are other pages where you have descriptions of 2 'M' roads on one page. CmVChegutu (talk) 07:23, 23 June 2022 (UTC)

Requested move 13 November 2021

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

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Great West Road, Zambia → ? – This road has actually never been referred to as the Great West Road from any source and as such, the name Great West Road has been deemed not acceptable by some. Chils Kemptonian (talk) 22:07, 13 November 2021 (UTC) — Relisting. FOARP (talk) 21:57, 26 November 2021 (UTC) — Relisting. User:力 (powera, π, ν) 19:30, 8 December 2021 (UTC)

Move to M9 (Zambia). As stated in the article, the road is designated as the M9 for its entire length, so it seems reasonable. It should be disambiguated with brackets because it's a road, not a place. YttriumShrew (talk) 00:02, 14 November 2021 (UTC)

Support per above and to be consistent with other articles in the country. --Rschen7754 00:38, 14 November 2021 (UTC)

Weak Oppose. Grew up in Zambia, never saw it referred to as "M9" (but then admittedly I did not drive out there). We commonly (inside Lusaka) called it the "Mumbwa Road" (which it is for that stretch), but term "Great West" was used too. I suspect it might be an informal term or manner of speaking, to parallel Great North & Great East roads. But the term "Great West Road" is found in sources and shows up in searches e.g. and books books, so I'm not sure it is should be so quickly dismissed. Walrasiad (talk) 01:53, 14 November 2021 (UTC)

That would make sense, as it doesn't seem to have been designated as the M9 until at least the 1970s. YttriumShrew (talk) 21:59, 15 November 2021 (UTC)

Weak Support Well, according to Zambia's "Roads & Road Traffic Act", just like most other M-roads in the country, this Lusaka-Mumbwa-Kaoma-Mongu Road has a designation, which is "M9", for its entire route, just as it is shown on Google Maps and OpenStreetMap. The title "M9 Road (Zambia)" already redirects to this article and so, the name M9 road (Zambia) is applicable if the name will be changed. But you have a point by saying that some Books and Reports on Google Search have the term "Great West Road" used; but in most cities excluding Lusaka, the name "Great West Road" is not as famous as the names "Great East Road" and "Great North Road" (to some, the name is strange). User:CmVChegutu, who first mentioned the issue to me, needs to state why the name may be unacceptable. Chils Kemptonian (talk) 21:11, 17 November 2021 (UTC)

Support I was born in Lusaka as was my father, I still live in Zambia but unlike Walrasiad (talk) have never heard the road referred to as the "The Great West Road", in Lusaka the current road has always been called the "Mumbwa Road" even though the ultimate destination is Mongu and does not pass through Mumbwa. The old section, Mumbwa to Mankoya (Kaoma), can be seen in satellite imagery following a zig-zag path, crossing the Kafue by means of a pontoon near Chunga, the Chunga M9 stretch,going west, is still in a very good condition surprisingly. I have traveled the road many times as well as the M20 which I know is termed "The Old Mumbwa Road" or even "The Mumbwa Road" by people living in the vicinity of Landless Corner. While "The Great East Road" and "Great North Road" appear on maps, both current and old Northern Rhodesian ones, I have not found "The Great West Road" shown on any map and suspect there was possibly informal use of the term owing to the fact that both the "Great East" and "Great North" were well known and were very much part of local folklore particularly at the time of the "Hell Run" in the mid 1970s, possibly also a semi sarcastic use as there was definitely nothing "Great" about the route. "The Great North Road" used to refer to the entire length of the road north from Livingstone to Abercorn (Mbala) but now only refers to the section from Lusaka north to the border with Tanzania. The route west was created in a rather haphazard manner and the existing route only came into being after Independence. The earliest route to Mongu was up the western edge of the Barotse Floodplain from Livingstone and at one time there was a sign at the southern end that stated "Choose your rut, you will be in it for the next 200 miles." CmVChegutu (talk) 10:24, 18 November 2021 (UTC)

Support What User:CmVChegutu has said is making sense; the name "Great West Road" has never been made "official" and to be honest, very few of the fellow residents I have spoken to believe that that name is used at all in Zambia. Even when referring to this Lusaka-Mumbwa-Kaoma-Mongu Road on Zambian News, the broadcasters do not use this name to refer to the road (while they use the names "Great North Road" and "Great East Road" to refer to the other two), clearly stating that this name is not official if it is used at all. The road is well-known, but the name "Great West Road" clearly isn't. So, I suggest that the name be changed to M9 road (Zambia).— Preceding unsigned comment added by Chils Kemptonian (talk • contribs)

The road tends to be referred to as the "Lusaka-Mongu Road" by the media in Zambia so perhaps M9 Lusaka-Mongu Road (Zambia). CmVChegutu (talk) 09:28, 19 November 2021 (UTC)

• Oppose. This discussion doesn't seem to have had a lot of hard evidence supplied to it so far - most comments seem along the lines of "I live in Lusaka and my mates and I call the road X". But what's important is reliable sources, and Walrasiad's links above, particularly the extensive use of the term "Great West Road" in book sources, suggests that the current title is the correct one. M9 might be an alternative, but I think the name is better overall, absent evidence that there's a heavy usage of M9, and it's also WP:CONSISTENT with Great North Road and Great East Road.  — Amakuru (talk) 13:52, 23 November 2021 (UTC)

M9 is not an alternative but I agree it is not the name, as per the Road Traffic Act Cap 464 all gazetted roads in Zambia are given a reference depending on their importance in the road network and most are never referred to by their reference number by name, 'T' roads are inter-territorial roads, 'M' roads are major internal links, 'D' roads are district roads and confusingly you have 'D' and 'RD' roads and you may have D212 and RD212 which refer to 2 different but connected roads ('D' roads are maintained by the appropriate district authorities while the 'RD' roads are maintained by the relevant rural council and as a result 'RD' roads are very poorly maintained due to lack of funds), 'B' roads that are branch roads and finally 'R' or Rural roads. While the T2 runs from the Chirundu border post with Zimbabwe to Nakonde on the border with Tanzania, only the portion of the T2 from Lusaka to the border with Tanzania is named the Great North Road while the entire length of the Great East Road, Lusaka to the border with Malawi is designated T4. Historically the Great North Road ran from Livingstone to Mbala, the route via Chirundu to Southern Rhodesia (Zimbabwe), went via Ibwe Munyama Mission on the edge of the escarpment crossing the Zambezi by means of a pontoon and was not as well used as the route south via Livingstone, the climb up the escarpment on the southern side of the Zambezi was very steep and fully laden cars in the 1930s struggled to make the climb. You will find both the Great East and the Great North Roads in Lusaka signposted, in fact at the North End Roundabout where the Great East, Great North and the supposed 'Great West' meet there is a sign post indicating both the Great North and Great East but no sign indicating the Great West Road and I am sure there is nowhere in Lusaka where the 'Great West Road' is signposted, or anywhere along its supposed length. Possibly there are signposts to the "Mumbwa Road", there is a current project to erect new street signs ongoing in Lusaka. I have nowhere stated "my mates and I call the road X" I have said I have never heard anybody call the road The Great West Road, I have never seen it on any map and have never seen a signpost to it, I am quite confident if I stood on Cairo Road in Lusaka and asked any passer by to direct me to the Great West Road they wouldn't have a clue as to what I was talking about. The fact it is in books does not mean it is the official name. I would suggest a google search for Lusaka-Mongu Road will turn up far more hits of an official nature than Great West Road. Your argument "it's also WP:CONSISTENT with Great North Road and Great East Road." makes no sense, you imply that if there is an article about North Street and South Street any article about a street at right angles to them must be East Street or West Street. I would suggest the article be named Lusaka-Mongu Road (M9) and reference made in the article that there was a very loose historical reference to the route west being called the Great West Road but the name is no longer in common usage. Form this link it would infer the Road Development Agency (RDA) refer to the road as Lusaka-Mongu Road (M9) in tender documents Consultancy Services for Detailed Design, Preparation of Tender Documents CmVChegutu (talk) 07:41, 25 November 2021 (UTC)

Well, we seem to be discussing about what the "official name" of this route is; we are doing more of explaining why we believe the name "Great West Road" is invalid more than we are promoting any suggested alternative name. Again, from Zambian publicity, the name "Great West Road" is clearly obscure (not known enough) and it is not very clear as to where the name came from or which government or people certified the use of the name "Great West Road" for a road in Zambia. Journalists have never used the name "Great West Road" when reporting about this road, that's if they've ever heard the name. I cannot find a single "proper source" apart from these "recent book results of Google Search from 2010 to present" that states that the name "Great West Road" has been officially used. If we bring up the aspect of consistency, then the Lusaka-Livingstone road should also be called the "Great South Road" from what I understand (Lusaka as the starting point in all directions), which is not acceptable. Apart from Wikipedia, I do not know any website, society, etc that is making the name "Great West Road" sound official, as many websites reference "this Wikipedia Page" for the use of this name. Taking into account both the M9 (Lusaka-Mongu) and the M20 (Landless Corner-Mumbwa; Old Mumbwa Road), I also suggest that the article should be renamed to Lusaka-Mongu Road. Chils Kemptonian (talk) 18:37, 25 November 2021 (UTC)

I agree, if you look at the history of this page it was created in 2007 as were many pages on Zambia and many by the same person. There is always a danger of the Wikipedia page becoming the source for information even if it is incorrect. Looking at the sources for the original page the most authoritative is the one from the Northern Rhodesia Journal and it does not mention the Great West Road by name but gives a history of the general early development of the transport network in Northern Rhodesia. Other sources given are travel guides and travel maps I would not consider these to be definitive sources of information, the base map for Zambia on a modern Garmin GPS is at least 50 years out of date and still shows the Mongu road crossing the Kafue River at Chunga. The problem we have is that much of the information contributed on countries like Zambia is not by Zambians themselves but largely by past expatriates and, no disrespect here, from past experience they don't always know the full details of the information they are providing. The early history of Zambia, prior to Independence, is not well documented especially the social history, this is because Northern Rhodesia/Zambia did not have a dramatic past like Zimbabwe or South Africa. Much like today it just quietly went about its business. In this situation we have the classic problem of trying to prove a negative. Another word on sources, Google Maps is incorrect on a number of road references and OpenStreetMap suffers from the same problem as Wikipedia in that much of the mapping is done by remote mappers, some of whom will take their information from Google even though it is against the terms of OpenStreetMap, this results in a self perpetuating cycle of errors. CmVChegutu (talk) 05:55, 26 November 2021 (UTC)

I would consider withdrawing my weak opposition if the proposal is "Lusaka-Mongu Road" (or some variant thereof), but I am not keen on simply "M9 (Zambia)" as originally proposed.Walrasiad (talk) 10:50, 27 November 2021 (UTC)

So, have we officially agreed that the name needs to be changed? Chils Kemptonian (talk) 07:49, 5 December 2021 (UTC)

• Relisting comment ignoring disambiguation, there seem to be three names with some support: Great West Road, M9, and Lusaka-Mongu Road. One question I don't see an answer to is "what signposts are there for this road". User:力 (powera, π, ν) 19:30, 8 December 2021 (UTC)

Zambia has yet to improve its physical road signage. All the current road signs of Lusaka may be saying is: "this road provides access to Mumbwa, Kaoma and Mongu". In Lusaka, the Great North Road is signposted as the Great North Road (together with mentioning some towns) and the Great East Road is signposted as the Great East Road (together with mentioning some towns); but this "Great West Road" is not signposted with that name (only some towns are mentioned on the signage). Chils Kemptonian (talk) 18:56, 9 December 2021 (UTC)

I spent about 20 minutes the other day looking at photos along the road on Google Maps (sadly there is no street view coverage either). I was unable to find any road signs myself (just want to save others the trouble of looking). ASUKITE 21:49, 10 December 2021 (UTC)

I agree we should change. Regarding road signs I traveled this road as far as the Hook Bridge this time last year and can confirm there are no signs apart from signs to the Mumbwa Road in Lusaka itself. I traveled along the new Lusaka Bypass to the west of Lusaka a little more than a month ago and at most junctions there are signs indicating the names of intersecting roads but not the M9. As Chils Kemptonian says the Great East Road and Great North Road are well sign posted regularly within Lusaka and at the North End/Kabwe Roundabout, coming from Kalambo Road, both are sign posted on one pole, this is the start point for both Great East and Great North Roads and the link to the M9 but there is no corresponding sign to M9. I have a copy of the National Parks and Wildlife Act and this is an extract regarding part of the boundary for the Kafue National Park "...thence southwards to a point on the Mumbwa-Kaoma road M9 (as re-aligned in 1971); thence in a westerly direction along the southern edge of the Mumbwa-Kaoma road reserve to the Kafue River...", to me this indicates that officially, as previously stated, the road is named in sections, ie Lusaka-Mumbwa-Kaoma-Mongu Road or more generally when referring to its entire length Lusaka-Mongu Road (M9). As an aside ASUKITE many rural road signs get stolen, they make great aluminium pots. CmVChegutu (talk) 16:10, 11 December 2021 (UTC)

User:力 Here's the answer. There's no physical geographical element in Zambia that refers to this road as the Great West Road. There's no road sign, signpost, etc. It is common knowledge that the names "Great North Road" and "Great East Road" are official names, which is why they show on road signs in the capital city. "Great West Road" is not an official name and I know that journalists do not even use that name when referring to this road for its entire length from Lusaka to Mongu. From my research, the names "Great North Road" and "Great East Road" are used on almost every GPS available while the name "Great West Road" is not used on any, whether it is the "Old Mumbwa Road" (M20) or the "Lusaka-Mumbwa-Kaoma-Mongu Road" (M9). Just like the Lusaka-Livingstone road, this road does not yet have an official name given to it by the nation of Zambia, which is why we prefer for it to be named the "Lusaka-Mongu Road". At the moment, I do not see any better, acceptable name for this road. Chils Kemptonian (talk) 13:12, 18 December 2021 (UTC)

Chils Kemptonian I know this comment should be on the Lusaka–Livingstone Road talk page but since you have mentioned it as an example I feel I should mention there is an issue with this page as well. The whole route, Lusaka to Livingstone, is not known as the Lusaka-Livingstone Road but is broken down into two sections, Lusaka-Kafue which is known as the "Kafue Road" and then the length of the T1 from what used to be called the "Turnpike", the junction between the T1 and T2, and Livingstone being called the "Livingstone Road". Just beyond the junction of the T1 and T2, going south, the old derelict fuel station used to be called the "Turnpike Service Station" with the owners/managers living above the service station, some older residents of the area may still call it the "Turnpike". The section of the T2 from this point going south is known as the "Chirundu Road" and the M15, T2 to Siavonga, the "Siavonga Road". While I know it is not relevant to the discussion on this page I thought I would bring it to your attention. CmVChegutu (talk) 14:14, 20 December 2021 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.