Talk:Death and funeral of Mikhail Gorbachev

Merge with main article

This article adds very little additional content and should therefore be merged with the main personality article on Gorbachev, in the "Death" paragraph. TynoPk (talk) 01:11, 31 August 2022 (UTC)

The article's topic is notable enough to be branched out. More news will likely follow that can support this article's creation. elijahpepe@wikipedia (he/him) 01:17, 31 August 2022 (UTC)

I agree. I do not believe death pages, even for people like Gorbachev, are needed unless Gorbachev was assassinated, or something. There's no page for the death of Joseph Stalin, and he was arguably more notable than Gorbachev. The only times a page for death is needed is when the cause of death was an assassination (such as the deaths of John F. Kennedy or Shinzo Abe.) TheBlueSkyClub (talk) 21:54, 1 September 2022 (UTC)

Just letting you know, Death and state funeral of Joseph Stalin does exist. elijahpepe@wikipedia (he/him) 04:12, 2 September 2022 (UTC)

Oh, I was unaware. Thanks for letting me know! TheBlueSkyClub (talk) 17:56, 2 September 2022 (UTC)

I don't see how it could be branched out. He didn't seem to have a particularly notable death. FishandChipper 🐟🍟 09:02, 31 August 2022 (UTC)

@User:FishandChipper and @User:TynoPk, you can raise these thoughts at WP:Articles for deletion/Death of Mikhail Gorbachev. I'm not tagging Elijah cos he already has Stephanie921 (talk) 10:40, 31 August 2022 (UTC)

Reactions

Can we remove this non-notable "reaction" farm? Nythar^T.C 03:09, 31 August 2022 (UTC)

​ Hidden pinging of reverting user. Nythar^T.C 03:16, 31 August 2022 (UTC)

Reactions are a part of the death of a notable person. I would be fine with converting it to prose, but I don't see much purpose in doing that. A list is a much better format.elijahpepe@wikipedia (he/him) 03:22, 31 August 2022 (UTC)

@ElijahPepe: No. The way it's currently written is unencyclopedic, simply a list of "this person and this person and this person" without mentioning what they said. Nythar^T.C 03:26, 31 August 2022 (UTC)

I suggest paring it down to current heads of government/state or former ones who coincided with Gorbachev. Do we really need to document that Australia's treasurer (aged 13 when the USSR collapsed), or the opposition leaders in the UK and Spain, are sharing their condolences? Unknown Temptation (talk) 17:08, 31 August 2022 (UTC)

Reasonable enough. I'm fine with this. elijahpepe@wikipedia (he/him) 17:21, 31 August 2022 (UTC)

• Removed this crap section. Doesn't matter if they're current or contemporaneous, we should not be merely compiling names of people/governments who made typical sharing of condelences. If there's something actually worth discussing about any of these, that's great, write those details! Highlight what they highlighted! But don't have a useless context-free bullet point list. Reywas92^Talk 20:26, 31 August 2022 (UTC)

Very irresponsible of you to remove a section with an ongoing talk page discussion. Regardless, listing reactions seems to be commonplace so that's why I added them. elijahpepe@wikipedia (he/him) 22:33, 31 August 2022 (UTC)

I has done so in the first place before actually seeing the talk page, but I've removed it again since you're the only person in support. If any specific statements are worth discussing, then do so with prose. This is worthless. Very irresponsible of you to create a new article merely for the sake of having an article before there was an actual need to do so. "Commonplace" doesn't mean it isn't poor form that shouldn't also be removed elsewhere. Reywas92^Talk 13:47, 1 September 2022 (UTC)

I created it because there were reliable sources covering it extensively—it was the first article on the New York Times' front page. What confuses me is why you seem to be so beligerent and obstinate to anything regarding this subject. I don't know why that is, maybe there's some personal bias here on your part? I object to the removal of that section, and so consensus needs to be reached. I'm willing to convert it to prose if need be but being so cut-throat about it isn't mature.

Here's what I'm going to do. It's clear that Gorbachev is a pretty polarizing figure and a list isn't going to encapsulate every reaction to his death. When I get home from work, I'll turn it into a few paragraphs. elijahpepe@wikipedia (he/him) 15:12, 1 September 2022 (UTC)

No shit, that's why two people have removed it and more have said it has no point – the list of names doesn't encapsulate *any* reaction, much less all of them! Reminder: reliable sources covering something does *not* mean a separate article is needed when they can likewise go toward the main article: everything can still be covered at Mikhail_Gorbachev#Death. Reywas92^Talk 16:20, 1 September 2022 (UTC)

I strongly advise you to drop the unwarranted aggression against ElijahPepe. Needless hostility does nothing to improve the encyclopedia and makes people not want to volunteer their spare time to contributing. I'll also add that it was incorrect of you to say that they were the only user who supports the existence of the section; I'm the editor who reverted your blanket removal of it the first time, clearly he is not alone in believing the section should exist. Other editors have suggested parsing it down, but not eliminating it. Repeatedly removing it with no regard for the ongoing discussion is edit warring.  Vanilla  Wizard 💙 22:11, 1 September 2022 (UTC)

• My preference is to use prose containing parts of these leaders' statements. It doesn't need to be paragraphs and paragraphs of full statements, but the current version is a poor middleground - there's little value to just stating that the reactions exist without saying what the reactions are. I want to know what different leaders chose to mention in their condolences for one of the most influential political figures of the second half of the 20th century. Some of them are more interesting than just cookie cutter responses, some of the world leaders recall a time when they worked with Gorbachev directly. I find the statements of former German chancellor Angela Merkel to be especially remarkable, given that she hails from East Germany and owes her career to Gorbachev's decision to dismantle the Berlin Wall. Reading the various reactions should not require readers to individually click on all the sources cited next to an uninformative bullet-point list stating that various world leaders had reactions.  Vanilla  Wizard 💙 21:33, 31 August 2022 (UTC)

In the AFD, Therealscorp1an, Metropolitan90, De Guerre, FishandChipper and Jayron32 all commented on the list of condolence-sharers. Pinging in case they have comments. Reywas92^Talk 13:55, 1 September 2022 (UTC)

Per WP:IINFO, not everything which is true and verifiable is necessary to write in a biography. At best (and I'm not saying we even need it, but conceding that it's possible) a single, short sentence to the effect of "Many world leaders expressed official condolences at the news of his death" would sufficiently carry sufficient information without having to list every single country which did so. In general, biographies of people out there <waves vaguely at the rest of the outside-of-Wikipedia world> never do this, so there is no reason for a Wikipedia biography to do so. If I were reading about any other historical figure, in any context outside of a Wikipedia article, I don't expect to see any biography of a person, written in any book, magazine, journal, website, encyclopedia, or whatever, to include an arbitrary list of people who publicly expressed condolences at someone's death. If it doesn't happen in biographies written anywhere else, there is no reason to do so at Wikipedia either. --Jayron32 14:25, 1 September 2022 (UTC)

The reactions list is the only thing that gives this article some bulk. This sort of list, while still unnecessary and I guess kind of seen by some as WP:TRIVIA, has been used in other articles of the sort. I say keep the list of reactions for now until this article is deleted. My opinions on the deletion are on the AfD page. Thank you. - Therealscorp1an (talk) 22:13, 1 September 2022 (UTC)

One person's bulk is another person's bloat. The scope of this article has now expanded to include Mr Gorbachev's funeral, which unlike his death is likely to be an independently noteworthy event. And given the current geopolitical situation, it's going to be distinguished by who does and does not attend, which may make for a good list. Since the event hasn't actually happened yet. I don't see why this article needs bulk. De Guerre (talk) 01:23, 2 September 2022 (UTC)

Re: "has been used in other articles of the sort". The present is not bound by the mistakes of the past. Just because someone did the wrong thing before, doesn't mean we must continue to do the wrong thing forever. We can just start doing the correct thing today, here and now, for this article. --Jayron32 14:40, 2 September 2022 (UTC)

Why?

Why is this article is going to be deleted? I feel like almost article about people haves a death article about them. But why is this one being deleted? Any reasons? MasterWolf0928-Æthelwulf (talk) 20:36, 31 August 2022 (UTC)

@User:MasterWolf0928-Æthelwulf It's not necessarily gonna be deleted. People are voting on whether to keep it or delete here: WP:Articles for deletion/Death of Mikhail Gorbachev. U can cast ur vote if ya like :) The reasons the nominater proposed for deletion can be viewed at the top Stephanie921 (talk) 21:21, 31 August 2022 (UTC)

Lead sentence

What does "Gorbachev became the last living Soviet leader following the death of Georgy Malenkov in 1988, and was the only one to have been born during its existence" mean? Stephanie921 (talk) 17:28, 1 September 2022 (UTC)

I believe it means that following the death of Georgy Malenkov in 1988, Gorbachev became the only person alive who had once led the Soviet Union (as all other leaders of the Soviet Union were dead), and that Gorbachev was the only leader of the Soviet Union to have been born following the creation of the USSR in 1922. Willsteve2000 (talk) 19:07, 1 September 2022 (UTC)

Oh okay ty. Stephanie921 (talk) 02:12, 2 September 2022 (UTC)

Keep

Gorbachev death news is very popular and important for now, why must be removed even though a less popular character than him has an article on his death. I think even if Putin death still have to make an article on his death even though many are hated from his country to the whole world. KenzoHarits56 (talk) 06:11, 3 September 2022 (UTC)

you can put your response here: WP:Articles for deletion/Death of Mikhail Gorbachev. 202.166.27.83 (talk) 04:42, 4 September 2022 (UTC)

How to archive citation website?

Philippine President Bongbong Marcos also expresses his condolences, saying that "The Filipino people condole with the Russian people for the loss of a great leader, and we pray he rests in peace," in a statement. [25] Check the citation please i think there something wrong it Nag-Eedit si Mang Robert (talk) 10:48, 9 September 2022 (UTC)

I've fixed some weird formatting with it. Are there still issues now? Aidan9382 _(talk) 11:15, 9 September 2022 (UTC)

Ok thanks I was the one who cite it im not know how correctly to cite im try fix it because it have no "retrieved date" text Nag-Eedit si Mang Robert (talk) 12:15, 9 September 2022 (UTC)

Reactions in Baltic states

"The governments of Lithuania, Latvia and Estonia stated that while they remembered the "good deeds" done by Gorbachev, they also remembered the death of many Balts" - this needs some rewording. The sources don't seem to mention any statement from government officials of Estonia or Latvia. Being from Estonia, I'm not aware of any official statement having been issued here, positive or negative (note also that Estonia didn't suffer casualties in 1991, unlike the other Baltic states). Former President Toomas Hendrik Ilves's reaction is mentioned in the Reuters article, but he is not currently a government representative (mentioning his statement in the article would be very much appropriate though). Abc347834 (talk) 19:39, 9 September 2022 (UTC)