Talk:Connie Mak Kit-man

Connie or Kitman? (2012 move request)

The following discussion is an archived discussion of the proposal. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the proposal was no conclusion, default to not moved. The discussion below established that both names are valid, without overwhelming preference for one or the other. In the absence of a need for disambiguation so far, default to no change. Deryck C. 11:50, 13 June 2012 (UTC)

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Connie Mak → Kitman Mak – Her stage name was Connie while she was on contract with Crown Records. Then she became Kitman after she left Crown. Some sources declare her as Kitman. Nevertheless, I'm torn. --Relisted Cúchullain ^t/c 20:25, 12 June 2012 (UTC)Relisted. Jenks24 (talk) 01:33, 30 May 2012 (UTC) --George Ho (talk) 23:29, 22 May 2012 (UTC)

• comment use Hong Kong English methodology, Connie Mak Kitman, to resolve the issue. Frequently HK celebs with both English and Chinese names place it as "EnglishName Surname ChineseName". 70.24.251.208 (talk) 05:53, 23 May 2012 (UTC)
  • Not anymore we don't; also, too lengthy to type. Per WP:Naming conventions (Chinese), either romanized or established English name. --George Ho (talk) 06:03, 23 May 2012 (UTC)
    • NC-Chinese seems to except Taiwan and HK (and possibly Macau), and we don't have a specific NC for HK. -- 70.24.251.208 (talk) 05:19, 24 May 2012 (UTC)

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the proposal. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

Requested move 2013

The following discussion is an archived discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the move request was: no consensus. —Darkwind (talk) 00:15, 20 October 2013 (UTC)

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Connie Mak → Connie Mak Kitman – At first, I doubt that combining English and romanized names are used. However, I learned that Ivy Ling Po is unbeatable, and there is no naming conventions guideline for Hong Kong people. The prior request to prefer "Kitman Mak" failed, so this time I request including "Kitman" in the title. --Relisted. —Darkwind (talk) 05:49, 29 September 2013 (UTC) George Ho (talk) 06:31, 20 September 2013 (UTC)

• Support Hong Kong English WP:ENGVAR -- 70.24.249.39 (talk) 06:53, 20 September 2013 (UTC)
  • Engvar deals with regional differences in vocabulary, grammar, and spelling. It does not apply to proper names of whatever. --Cold Season (talk) 04:27, 22 September 2013 (UTC)
    • You just said it, grammar. This is Hong Kong convention for how to treat names. -- 70.24.249.39 (talk) 06:27, 24 September 2013 (UTC)
      • Don't twist things into something that holds no worth or truth take serious. Grammar isn't about proper names; that's just a ridiculous notion there. Heck, ENGVAR even explicitly state that proper names do not apply to Engvar. --Cold Season (talk) 19:21, 9 October 2013 (UTC)
        • WP:ARTCON, right? George Ho (talk) 19:22, 9 October 2013 (UTC)
          • Yes, that specific sub-section is the one. --Cold Season (talk) 19:27, 9 October 2013 (UTC)
• Oppose. Connie Mak Kitman isn't more common. It is also a wrong convention to combine an English and Chinese name like this in first-last-first name. --Cold Season (talk) 04:27, 22 September 2013 (UTC)
  • Kit-man is middle-first or first-middle in Chinese way. --George Ho (talk) 19:21, 22 September 2013 (UTC)
• I'm not seeing any evidence in this RM or the last one. Is this a WP:COMMONNAME, a WP:STAGENAME, what? --BDD (talk) 23:36, 9 October 2013 (UTC)
  • If you believe that WP:IAR doesn't apply, I must say that many sources used either romanized or English name. As for proposed, here's The Star, Slady, Cash, South China, 123malaysia, Broadway World. --George Ho (talk) 01:11, 10 October 2013 (UTC)
    • Slady doesn't support it and uses the current title as a distinct name; Broadway uses both; even ignoring the variability of hypens, capitals, and spaces at the "kitman" part at the others, it doesn't meet over the current title. IAR doesn't benefit the article in this context. --Cold Season (talk) 13:16, 10 October 2013 (UTC)

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page or in a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

Requested move 2014

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the move request was: move the page to Connie Mak Kit-man, per the discussion below. Dekimasuよ! 02:16, 3 December 2014 (UTC)

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Connie Mak → Kitman Mak – Or Kit-man Mak or Connie Mak Kit-man? In later years, she dropped the name "Connie" in favor of 麥潔文, especially when she quit one record label and then signed contracts with another major one. Later albums didn't use "Connie Mak" ([1][2][3]. Compilations use "Connie Mak" ([4][5]) only when she no longer works for these record companies. 1985 article refers her as "Connie Mak". Yahoo recently uses the name, but I don't know. "Kitman Mak" is used by Star, Sun, this and RTHK. "Connie Mak" isn't as common as it was in 1980s. Well, she wasn't popular outside HK or China when she used English and Chinese names. Both names are used recently, so it comes down to WP:DIVIDEDUSE. If we can't use "Connie Mak Kit-man", which SCMP uses, then Kitman or Kit-man? If we can extend to Chinese sources rather than stick to English-only ones, then this source also uses "Kitman". George Ho (talk) 11:44, 24 November 2014 (UTC)

• Use Connie Mak Kit-man per local HK naming style, or Keep at "Connie Mak" -- 67.70.35.44 (talk) 08:00, 25 November 2014 (UTC)

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The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page or in a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

Requested move 10 December 2014

The following discussion is an archived discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

Not moved for lack of a clear consensus to move. This is a very difficult call, as it is a very close dispute, but it is problematic that there is no proposed move target that appears to be the clear best target. bd2412 T 00:38, 24 January 2015 (UTC)

Connie Mak Kit-man → Connie Mak – This needs to go back to Connie Mak or Kit-man Mak, not something long like the current title. TheAvatar (discuss–?) 16:52, 10 December 2014 (UTC)

Please elaborate. Note that WP:CONCISE has a specific exception for biographic entries. Dekimasuよ! 17:06, 10 December 2014 (UTC)

There's no standard for Hong Kong names nor there is a naming convention specific for Hong Kong names, it needs to follow either the English convention name Connie Mak, or Chinese convention Kit-man Mak. Even the guideline provide in the WP:NCP suggested Most biographical articles have titles in the form <First name> <Last name>. I'd like to see where it says <Last name> <First name> <Last name> can be tolerated. TheAvatar (discuss–?) 18:19, 10 December 2014 (UTC)

• Support. If one wants to prove that there is some kind established convention of naming in Hong Kong, I would like to see a source for it. At the moment, all I see is people basing it on random inconsistent usage in sources. Thus, revert to common name in English or transliterated Chinese, and not some kind of self-invention of English-Chinese blend. --Cold Season (talk) 19:00, 10 December 2014 (UTC)

@Cold Season: It's been over a month. Can you choose either "Connie" or "Kitman"? If not, how strong is your opposition? --George Ho (talk) 04:07, 23 January 2015 (UTC)

• Oppose - I can't believe this. First you tried to re-rename articles without discussion. Then you are trying to make similar discussions that will bend backwards, like Talk:Raymond Chan Chi-chuen. Recently, you accuse me of being a sockpuppeteer of that voter. Perhaps you shall be reported. (Not yet, but I'll do so if conflict keeps up.) As for the renaming, I can't do anything about the subject's decision, lack of adequate rules in regards to Hong Kong people, and conflicting sources. Cold Season is against the current title but pretty indecisive on either Chinese or English names. The current title helps stabilize the article for now until we can develop more rules and discussions. --George Ho (talk) 23:08, 10 December 2014 (UTC)

Besides, Cold Season, she has not been recognizable nowadays, but she has been notable. Perhaps her inadequate recognition is the reason for the article's name change. No one has been familiar with her and her names. At first, I assumed that dropping "Connie" would make searching this article easier because she dropped it. However, due to people's unfamiliarity with this person, I realize that keeping Connie and her Chinese name in the title is really for the best. --George Ho (talk) 23:19, 10 December 2014 (UTC)

@Cold Season, Tavatar: WP:NCUE says this: "It can happen that an otherwise notable topic has not yet received much attention in the English-speaking world, so that there are too few English sources to constitute an established usage." Connie Mak Kit-man has been seldom covered by reliable English-language sources, so her name must be "Connie Mak Kit-man". --George Ho (talk) 21:06, 11 December 2014 (UTC)

Notability is not temporary. Based on Conciseness in WP:NC, we should always go with the shortest title that we can identify the subject from another. As far as I can tell, there seems to be only one Connie Mak in the entire Wikipedia. TheAvatar (discuss–?) 21:52, 11 December 2014 (UTC)

I did propose "Kitman Mak" two years ago, but she has been proven not known as "Kitman Mak" or "Connie Mak" outside Hong Kong (or China) to begin with. --George Ho (talk) 22:06, 11 December 2014 (UTC)

Also, haven't you forgotten the "recognizability" criterion? She has been recognized as "麥潔文" and "Connie Mak" and "麥潔文 (Kitman)", but only Chinese-language sources use these names. English sources have been nowhere to be found. --George Ho (talk) 22:18, 11 December 2014 (UTC)

• Note: User:Cold Season (here) was canvassed to this discussion by User:Tavatar. Dekimasuよ! 03:23, 11 December 2014 (UTC)

It was done with the intent to improve the quality of the discussion by broadening participation to more fully achieve consensus. TheAvatar (discuss–?) 21:52, 11 December 2014 (UTC)

Not because you knew which way the editor would !vote, as both Cold Season and Ohconfucius have agreed with your opinion at each talk page to which they were alerted? (User:Ohconfucius was alerted to the discussions here; I did not mention him earlier because he hadn't commented, but he has now.) AAR the closer will be aware of what happened now and can weigh our ideas on whether or not it was canvassing. Dekimasuよ! 18:26, 16 December 2014 (UTC)

There are always complaints from those on the 'other side' whenever there are suspicions about canvassing. I participate quite regularly in RMs. You are just speculating because he posted to my talk and I happen to have the same view when I popped up here. You don't know I wouldn't have shown up if he hadn't left a message there. -- Ohc ^¡digame! 01:31, 17 December 2014 (UTC)

I am not on any "other side"-except for asking editors to refrain from personal attacks and to try working this out at WP:MOS-ZH, I have not done anything in any of these requests except close them, and closed one as "no consensus" to move to the longer form as my next edit after I made the note here. Having closed over half of all RMs in the last two months, I am aware of the extent to which you have participated in move discussions over that time, and my note was informed by this. Dekimasuよ! 19:53, 17 December 2014 (UTC)

• Oppose, Procedural Oppose, Speedy procedural close Per my opinion last time; This was recently closed, so the nominator should have gone to WP:MRV to dispute the result, as the move was properly formulated, and open for the requisite about of time. Adding flipflop nominations a week after the move closed is bad process. -- 67.70.35.44 (talk) 05:35, 11 December 2014 (UTC)
• Support. It's clear just be looking at the above that there was never any consensus for the current name, so it should be moved back. In any event, there is only one Connie Mak, and the tagging on of the Cantonese cluster as a suffix is but a local convention bound to create no end of confusion to the wider audience. -- Ohc ^¡digame! 06:54, 12 December 2014 (UTC)

What about Kitman Mak? She hasn't used her name "Connie" since her last album (大香港) with Crown Records in 1985. --George Ho (talk) 07:08, 12 December 2014 (UTC)

Also, ohconfucius, she had an EP, Kitman Remix. Why do you think she hasn't used her name "Connie" for a long time? --George Ho (talk) 07:33, 12 December 2014 (UTC)

I have researched and found that "Connie Mak" was used in just three albums published by Crown Records. --George Ho (talk) 08:15, 12 December 2014 (UTC)

I don't think there's much in it, but I reckon the article should probably occupy the Connie Mak namespace, with redirects from Kitman Mak, Mak Kit-man and Mak Kit Man. I just object to the "hybrid" Chinglish name. -- Ohc ^¡digame! 09:17, 12 December 2014 (UTC)

I stand by my vote on leaving it as is because I can't change your mind about choosing the English name (Connie) over the Chinese name (Kitman). And I still don't see how, despite irritating some readers, the current title lacks potential of stability. --George Ho (talk) 10:05, 12 December 2014 (UTC)

I forgot to tell you: there is only one 'Kitman Mak'. --George Ho (talk) 10:07, 12 December 2014 (UTC)

As I keep on saying, what I object to is the hybrid that gets called Hong Kong convention. I would have no issue if the article resided at Kitman Mak. -- Ohc ^¡digame! 01:34, 17 December 2014 (UTC)

I don't know. I don't mind it either, but non-Asians have not recognized her as either name because she hasn't gained international fame status like martial arts or gun-shooting actors these days. Even Leslie Cheung has a cult status amongst critics and art enthusiasts alike internationally. --George Ho (talk) 07:59, 17 December 2014 (UTC)

• Support. A title should not be an exhaustive list of all names a subject has ever been known by. Typically, HK singers articles use the format of Engrish first name followed by surname (see entries at Category:Cantopop singers). Redirects will get readers where they want to go. —  AjaxSmack  01:56, 13 January 2015 (UTC)

@AjaxSmack: Connie or Kitman? You can't oppose the current title without choosing either. --George Ho (talk) 00:24, 14 January 2015 (UTC)

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

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