Talk:Sorani

Untitled

Please change the REDIRECT of "Southern Kurdish" to this article since it is wrong. According to Ethnologue, Kurdish has three main dialects: Northern Kurmanji, Central Sorani , and Southern (Kolyai, Kermanshahi (Kermanshani), Kalhori, Garrusi (Bijari) Sanjabi, Malekshahi (Maleksh ay), Bayray, Kordali, Feyli, Luri.)

Southern Kurdish should not be redirected to Sorani, rather it should be its own article.Heja Helweda 05:29, 10 February 2006 (UTC)

I agree. I had seen this wrong redirect before and was going to creat at least a stub about southern dialects. I'll fix it.

Diyako Talk + 12:39, 10 February 2006 (UTC)

Sorani = Kurmanci

Sorani is a technical term. The correct designation for this Dialect is: Kurmancî Xwarû / Kurmanji Khwaru / Central Kurmanji.

Wikipedia goes by what the majority calls it.198.53.158.160 (talk) 23:30, 29 July 2008 (UTC)

Sorani is not Kurmanji — Preceding unsigned comment added by Lolawl (talk • contribs) 20:55, 17 April 2013 (UTC)

I don't know what made you think that kurmanji = sorani, Kurmanji and sorani are both dialects of Kurdish. But they are not the same. Imkurd (talk) 08:10, 27 December 2015 (UTC)

MacKenzie writes...

I have seen this fellow's name in a few places. I think that the first time he is mentioned, he should be referred to by full name and title and also what work it was put in. Just saying MacKenzie says this without anyone knowing who he is (unless they are in the field of Kurdish Studies) prompts the reader to say "Who the hell is MacKenzie? Why do I care about his opinion?". His opinion holds no weight for someone who doesn't know of him. Sir William Matthew Flinders Petrie Say Shalom! 20:18, 30 April 2011 (UTC)

He is certainly David Neil MacKenzie,

a polyglot whose linguistic knowledge was remarkable in both range and depth. Generally recognised as the world's leading authority on modern Kurdish and medieval Khwarezmian, he also made distinguished contributions to the study of many other Iranian languages, including Pashto, Pahlavi and Sogdian, at the same time displaying enviable competence in non-Iranian languages such as Arabic and Chinese.

It didn't take me long to find him by searching for Mackenzie Kurdish; this page is the top hit. But I don't know which of his many works is referred to here.

And, in fact, I'm going to link the first mention of his name to ... the Wikipedia article on him that was created 31 March 2007‎! --Thnidu (talk) 02:05, 1 September 2012 (UTC)

bad template call

The very first word in the article is in a redlinked template:

{{lang|ckb-Latn|Soranî}}

There is no Template:ISO 639 name ckb-Latn, as shows at the bottom of the page when you edit. The obvious change of "Latn" to "Latin" doesn't help. --Thnidu (talk) 02:38, 5 September 2012 (UTC)

• Resolved
  Klbrain (talk) 21:49, 4 March 2018 (UTC)

misleading name

Officially Kurdish dialects are Northern, Central and Southern. This article's name is a very local name, used a lot, but by mistake. Therefor I believe the main article name should be the correct one and the the other ones redirected to that not the other way around. Central Kurdish is the proper name for this article and after that Sorani could be a redirect page to this. --Marmzok (talk) 10:19, 23 November 2012 (UTC)

I think it turns out Sorani is especially used of the standardized written language as developed in the 1920s. The spoken dialect group should be called Central Kurdish to avoid confusion, but I do not think Sorani is "a very local name" (although it originates as such of course). This would all be much clearer if it wasn't for the apparent preconception among Kurdish contributors that they are somehow magically exempt from citing sources. Seriously, I have been looking over about a dozen "Kurdish" articles now, and basically none of them have anything that could remotely be called adequate references. --dab (𒁳) 10:26, 6 December 2014 (UTC)

Requested move 20 April 2015

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the move request was: Multiple pages NOT moved. —  Tayşeyî  12:48, 4 May 2015 (UTC)

---

• Central Kurdish dialects → Sorani
• Southern Kurdish dialects → Pehlewani

– Wikipedia prefers the name that is the most common usage. "Sorani" appears more common than "Central Kurdish" or "Central Kurdish dialects"[1][2][3] --Relisted. George Ho away from home (talk) 20:14, 29 April 2015 (UTC) —  Tayşeyî  20:44, 20 April 2015 (UTC)

• Skeptical Oppose: Especially before the possibly-biased changes that were just introduced into it by the nominator and one or two IPs, the "Central Kurdish dialects" article seemed to say that its subject is a broader topic than "Sorani" – i.e., that "Sorani" is a single member (or a smaller subset) of the "Central Kurdish dialects", and similarly for "Pehlewani" and "Southern Kurdish dialects". In fact, a month ago, the Southern Kurdish dialects article didn't even contain the word "Pehlewani". The nominator changed both articles to make these terms seem more synonymous with the article topics, which may not be correct or neutral. In some of the sources there seems to be an activist agenda, trying to help create "a unified Kurdish language" (per the KAL source), rather than merely trying to study and describe the dialects of Kurdish as they exist. My understanding is that "Sorani" is especially associated with such a movement, as "a written, standardized form of Central Kurdish written in an adapted form of the Perso-Arabic script, developed in the 1920s" by two particular people (quoting the Wikipedia article). The purpose of the Wikipedia article is encyclopedic study, not promotion of a recent more cohesive unification. See also the previous remarks above by Marmzok and dab. Moreover, we have a practice on Wikipedia known as using a "descriptive title" (per WP:AT) when there is no well-recognized common name that accurately represents an article's topic (with "neutral POV"). Descriptive article titles "are often invented specifically for articles". We don't always need to find a particular term based on sources, when no well-recognized term exists that describes the article's topic. —BarrelProof (talk) 02:10, 21 April 2015 (UTC)

  Changed to "oppose" above, since there has been no response to invalidate the suggestion that this move request may have WP:POVTITLE and article scope problems. —BarrelProof (talk) 21:01, 25 April 2015 (UTC)

Taysheyi, I would have suggested that something might have happened like the content of this RM could have been added as an addendum to the currently active RM for Kurmanji Kurdish → Northern Kurdish within which you initially supported the suggestions of:

• Kurmanji Kurdish → Northern Kurdish dialects
• Central Kurdish → Central Kurdish dialects
• Southern Kurdish → Southern Kurdish dialects

Perhaps cross referencing can be provided.

I do see these as improvements in title and don't personally object to the fact that you subsequently moved these pages manually prior to the closure of the RM but the current situation, without your notification of the moves that you made on the RM, may have contributed to the current situation.

In the other current RM AjaxSmack has helpfully noted that "Kurmanji" appears more common in sources.

At this stage I would like to ask about the extent to which the words, Kurmanji, Sorani and Pehlewani are adjectives. In these cases we might use something such as the existing title "Kurmanji Kurdish", "Kurmanji Kurdish dialect" or Kurmanji (Kurdish dialect). GregKaye 09:56, 21 April 2015 (UTC)

• OPPOSE, "Sorani" only refers to a literary form of Central Kurdish and not to the other spoken Central Kurdish dialects. Khestwol (talk) 07:50, 1 May 2015 (UTC)

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Requested move 2 May 2019

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

The result of the move request was: Moved — Martin (MSGJ · talk) 07:16, 10 May 2019 (UTC)

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Central Kurdish → Sorani – Since Kurds speak more than one language, the language name "Sorani" is more suitable and more natural than "Central Kurdish". Also the mostly Wikipedia in other language versions use the term "Sorani" as for example the German Wikipedia[4], the Kurdish Wikipedia[5], the French Wikipedia[6], the Portuguese Wikipedia[7], the Catalan Wikipedia[8], the Danish Wikipedia[9], even the Japanese Wikipedia[10]. This shows that the name Sorani is more widespread than Central Kurdish. 5.18.205.39 (talk) 19:53, 2 May 2019 (UTC)

• Support getting more and more common. In ictu oculi (talk) 19:39, 8 May 2019 (UTC)

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Status quo ante

The previous move was made without a requested move. Please use the requested move template instead of moving the page over and over again. According to the last requested move, the page should be named Sorani. I will move the page back to the Status quo ante. Nathan Annick (talk) 02:56, 19 June 2019 (UTC)

The term Sorani Kurdish is more common. I suggest moving this page from Sorani to Sorani Kurdish, aslo Kurmanji to Kurmanji Kurdish. Serchia (talk) 10:58, 27 June 2019 (UTC)

Change article's title to Sorani Kurdish

The title of the article is misleading. Sorani is by most Kurds and all other regular people considered a dialect of Kurdish. Most Kurds do not even go around and say that they speak Sorani, in most cases they would say that they speak Kurdish. If you go to Rûdaw.net/english for example (one of the most popular Kurdish news channels) you will see that in the language section you can choose Kurdî and کوردی (same Kurdî but written in the Perso-Arabic script). Kurmanji uses the Latin script and Sorani uses the Perso-Arabic script.

If you want to use the different alphabets analogy to claim that Kurmanji Kurdish and Sorani Kurdish are different languages then you have to do the same with the Mongolian (traditional Mongolian and Cyrilic), Serbian (Latin and Cyrilic), Azeri (Latin and Perso-Arabic, although even Azeri is a dialect of Turkish)...etc. languages. Even Japanese uses different alphabets in a unique way. And if you want to use the unmutually intelligable analogy to claim Kurmanji Kurdish and Sorani Kurdish are different languages then you have to do the same with the German, Italian, Chinese (disputed), Japanese, Arabic...etc. Even Mandarin is never called Mandarin by itself but instead Mandarin Chinese.

Also let me add that there have been discussion (also very recently) of standardizing the Kurdish language. There is an article of Rûdaw about that called Could standardizing Kurdish language save it from oblivion?. This in itself should speak volumes on how Kurdish indeed is considered one language, which it is.

And as a Kurd who's dialect of heritage is Southern Kurdish to call it Southern Kurdish as the article is called works well as the word Pehlewani hasn't really been used by our people to describe our dialect (although changing it to Pehlewani Kurdish could maybe work too). But Sorani Kurdish and Kurmanji Kurdish should be the titles of these respective wikipedia articles. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Veracity221 (talk • contribs) 11:14, 8 September 2019 (UTC)

I would support a move per WP:ASTONISH since it evidently needs to have a complete name and Sorani alone is not necessarily a term known by most readers. You could make a move request to attract editors. --Ahmedo Semsurî (talk) 11:37, 8 September 2019 (UTC)

Requesting small help

Hello many greetings,

Requesting your proactive contribution and support in updating Draft:Aurats (word) in relation to the related languages you know well.

Thanks and warm regards

Bookku (talk) 03:21, 12 July 2020 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 22 August 2020

223.204.224.168 (talk) 02:13, 22 August 2020 (UTC)

 Not done: it's not clear what changes you want to be made. Please mention the specific changes in a "change X to Y" format and provide a reliable source if appropriate. ◢  Ganbaruby!  (Say hi!) 09:23, 22 August 2020 (UTC)

video

The video with the Sorani Kurdish speaker is factually incorrect. Education in Kurdish is not forbidden in Iran. Simply the official language for state schools is Persian in all of Iran. Everybody can set up private schools and teach whatever language they want. Armenians in Iran for example have established Armenian schools.

Planlessness

Can I just know why the way you write the Soranî terms and words in Latin is just so fucked up?

In the first line, you have wrote "Kurdîy Nawendî" which is OK, really OK!

And... in the tables coming after that you have done something very very strange which I don't know what to call it. Fake Kurdish alphabet? One for this article only?

You have changed e (ـە) to a, a (ا) to â, c (ج) to j...

I hope that you can understand me and fix it.

Regards, RealRojSerbest (talk) 16:07, 5 April 2021 (UTC).

Sorani ~= Kurmanji

Sorani is often called Southern Kurmanji, especially in grammar contents. A reference for this, is Kurdistan Regional Government's education program's book of Kurdish language & grammar.

First paragraph to be changed to:

'''Sorani''' ({{lang-ku|سۆرانی ,Soranî}}), '''Southern Kurmanji''' or '''Central Kurdish''' ({{lang|ckb|کوردیی ناوەندی}}, ''{{lang|ckb-Latn|Kurdîy nawendî}}''), is a dialect<ref>{{Cite web|url=https://www.britannica.com/topic/Kurdish-language|title=Kurdish Language}}</ref><ref>{{Cite web|url=https://www.academia.edu/3692325|title=Dialects of Kurdish}}</ref><ref>{{Cite book|url=https://books.google.com/books?id=hiWXVjTIIucC&q=sorani+dialect&pg=PA51|title=The Kurds of Iraq: Ethnonationalism and National Identity in Iraqi Kurdistan|last=Aziz|first=Mahir A.|date=2011-01-30|publisher=I.B.Tauris|isbn=9781848855465|language=en}}</ref><ref>{{Cite book|url=https://books.google.com/books?id=I9mr6OgLjBoC&q=sorani+dialect&pg=PA177|title=The Kurds: A Concise Handbook|last1=Izady|first1=Mehrdad|last2=Izady|first2=Mehrdad R.|date=1992|publisher=Taylor & Francis|isbn=9780844817279|language=en}}</ref><ref>{{Cite web|url=https://www.institutkurde.org/en/language/|title=The Kurdish Language and Literature|website=Institutkurde.org|language=en|access-date=2019-08-15}}</ref> or a language<ref>{{Cite book|url=https://books.google.com/books?id=1eVdAQAAQBAJ&q=sorani+language&pg=PT169|title=Kurdish Identity, Discourse, and New Media|last=Sheyholislami|first=J.|date=2011-06-06|publisher=Springer|isbn=9780230119307|language=en}}</ref><ref>{{Cite web|url=https://sites.fas.harvard.edu/~iranian/Sorani/sorani_1_grammar.pdf|title=—Sorani Kurdish— A Reference Grammar with Selected Readings|last=Thackston|first=W. M.|website=[[Harvard University]]}}</ref> of the [[Kurdish languages]] that is spoken in [[Iraq]], mainly in [[Iraqi Kurdistan]], as well as the [[Kurdistan Province]], [[Kermanshah Province]], and [[West Azerbaijan Province]] of western [[Iran]]. Sorani is one of the two official languages of Iraq, along with [[Arabic]], and is in political documents simply referred to as "Kurdish".<ref>{{cite book|last=Allison|first=Christine|author-link=Christine Allison (writer)|title=The Yezidi Oral Tradition in Iraqi Kurdistan|url=https://books.google.com/books?id=GTg6tSFTQ98C&pg=PA16|year=2012|publisher=Routledge|isbn=978-1-136-74655-0}} "However, it was the southern dialect of Kurdish, Central Kurdish, the majority language of the Iraqi Kurds, which received sanction as an official language of Iraq."</ref><ref>{{cite web |title=Kurdish language issue and a divisive approach |publisher=Kurdish Academy of Language |url=http://kurdishacademy.org/?q=node/194 |date=5 March 2016 |url-status=dead |archive-url=https://web.archive.org/web/20160305024244/http://kurdishacademy.org/?q=node%2F194 |archive-date=March 5, 2016 }}</ref>

RealRojSerbest (talk)

A Commons file used on this page or its Wikidata item has been nominated for deletion

The following Wikimedia Commons file used on this page or its Wikidata item has been nominated for deletion:

• Kurdish languages map.svg

Participate in the deletion discussion at the nomination page. —Community Tech bot (talk) 00:54, 20 September 2021 (UTC)

Is "bait" a good example for "ێ" ?

Apokrif (talk) 02:04, 21 January 2023 (UTC)

no, "bait" is pronounced "bayt"

"bet" would be a better example Tütig Seg (talk) 21:03, 5 January 2024 (UTC)

Hi 185.187.76.246 (talk) 12:50, 26 January 2024 (UTC)

Number of Speakers, and The Kurdish Name

@Semsûrî:, @HistoryofIran:, @Cookiemonster1618: Can you please show me where in this link the 5.3 is mentioned? and by What popular and reliable sources this dialect is called "Lower Kurmanji" (کرمانجیی خواروو) except a few ones? Serchia (talk) 19:37, 21 July 2024 (UTC)

4,700,000 in Iraq (2020). Total users in all countries: 5,347,990.
632,000 in Iran (2021). Total Kurdish speakers in Iran: 5,530,000 (2022 GAMAAN).-Ethnologue quoted source and GAMAAN survey carried out in Iran. [11] [12] Cookiemonster1618 (talk) 19:38, 21 July 2024 (UTC)

5,347,990 Kurds in Iran and less than 1 million speaks Sorani Kurdish! The people of Kurdistan province (1,603,011) near all speak Sorani, and many cities in West Azerbaijan province (Mahabad, Bokan, Piranshar, Oshnavieh, etc) are also Sorani speakers. At least there are three million of Sorani speakers in Iran. Serchia (talk) 19:48, 21 July 2024 (UTC)

There are 632,000 Sorani speakers in Iran as of 2021 and 4.7 million in Iraq as of 2020. You have not cited a source for your claim of 1 million speakers in Iran, your last source also did not provide any estimate for the total number of Sorani speakers. If you continue to do your disruptive editing you will be reported to administrators and will be subject to adminstrative action. Cookiemonster1618 (talk) 19:50, 21 July 2024 (UTC)

That number for Iran is very conservative. There should be 1.2 million Sorani speakers in Kurdistan Province, Iran alone[13]. Semsûrî (talk) 19:51, 21 July 2024 (UTC)

That is a estimate from a survey carried out by GAMAAN which makes statistics in Iran on various topics like language and ethnicity. The report also mentioned that there were 643,000 Kurmanji speakers, and 4,250,000 Southern Kurdish speakers. Cookiemonster1618 (talk) 19:55, 21 July 2024 (UTC)

This is a talk page, not a threat page. I gave reasons why the ethnologue number may be wrong. Most of Kurdistan province speaks Sorani (Erdelani), as do other cities I mentioned. It's not just about having sources when some sources have wrong data. Serchia (talk) 19:56, 21 July 2024 (UTC)

Most Kurdish speakers in Iran speak Southern Kurdish which is distinct from Sorani or Kurmanji. The survey source I have provided is reliable especially considering that the population growth of Iran and the birthrate are declining and slow in recent years, the data that @Semsûrî has given is also not reliable as it mentioned in the source that these estimates may not be accurate and that Sorani speakers in Iran are bilingual in Persian which would make an estimate of 1.2 million Sorani speakers in Iran inaccurate and false. Cookiemonster1618 (talk) 20:01, 21 July 2024 (UTC)

It is possible that Southern Kurdish is the largest dialect but that Sorani number for Iran is still very off. I don't have access to Ethnologue - is there any mention of how they distributed the subdialects?

Beside Anonby, we have Sheyholislami who writes: Iran, based on the 2011 census: Kermanshah province, 300,000, primarily from Jafi Kurdish people (the majority of the population in this province speak Southern Kurdish, e.g. Kalhuri, in addition to Gurani, Hawrami, Persian and Turkish in Sonqor); Kordestan/Kurdistan province, 1,400,000 (the province is also home to speakers of Hawrami in Hawraman, Pawe/Paveh and Nowsud, Southern Kurdish in Bijar and Azari Turkish in Qurwe/Qorveh and Bijar); West Azerbaijan, 1,000,000 (there are also speakers of NK, SK and Azari Turkish in the province); and, other major urban centres in Iran such as Tabriz, Karaj and Tehran among others, 300,000.

Similar numbers for Kurdistan Province as Anonby and in total it would be 3 million. Ethnologue's numbers from 2006 put it at 3,250,000 in Iran. 3 million less speakers in around sixteen years?[14] Doubt it. Semsûrî (talk) 20:19, 21 July 2024 (UTC)

Hi Semsuri, Ethnologue used the survey conducted by GAMAAN to distribute the population of the different Kurdish varieties in Iran, you can check out it here if your not able to check Ethnologue. The point is that Ethnologue cited the GAMAAN survey who made the population estimates.[15] Cookiemonster1618 (talk) 20:43, 21 July 2024 (UTC)

Its beside the point that its from a GAMAAN survey — that number is an extreme outlier and affects the overall Sorani numbers. The least we can do is add some other numbers in the infobox. I was also unable to find any mention of Kurdish dialects in the link above. Semsûrî (talk) 21:04, 21 July 2024 (UTC)

The reason you are not able to access Ethnologue is because you are not subscribed. The source you have cited is also not reliable as it mentioned earlier that it does not accurately represent the number of Sorani speakers. Ethnologue gives dialect names for Sorani as well do you want me to quote it for you?. Cookiemonster1618 (talk) 21:15, 21 July 2024 (UTC)

Sure maybe there's an explanation there. Semsûrî (talk) 21:19, 21 July 2024 (UTC)

Dialects

Hewleri (Arbili), Xoshnaw, Pizhdar, Suleimani (Silemani), Warmawa, Rewandiz, Bingird, Kerkuki, Garmiyani, Jafi. In Sulaimaniya, Hewleri and Kerkuki dialects seen as mutually intelligible.

Cookiemonster1618 (talk) 21:23, 21 July 2024 (UTC)

The Source you have cited says 'Note: These figures do not account for ethnic population, which is beyond the scope of this atlas, or multilingualism (including second-language heritage speakers), which is an important but complex topic that cannot be adequately addressed in a large-scale survey.'. So even the estimate of 1.2 million Sorani speakers in Kurdistan province of Iran alone should be taken with caution. Cookiemonster1618 (talk) 19:58, 21 July 2024 (UTC)