Talk:Belgian Shepherd

Broken link?

@Cavalryman: I'm not sure why you used an edit-summary of "removed citation, link broken" in this edit [1].

The source is available in the Wayback Machine [2], including the PDF file mentioned at the bottom of the page [3].

If you search the current Kennel Club website for "purebred dog health survey results" you can find the current URL for the same source (websites often reorganize their page URLs over time). Here is the link for the 2004 survey [4] (which is the version in the original citation).

There was a newer survey done in 2014, shown at this link [5].

— Normal Op (talk) 16:23, 5 October 2020 (UTC)

Normal Op, I am mystified at your confusion, when I click on the link it comes up with Page not found in large letters then below that We can't seem to find the page you are looking for, the page may have been removed or you could have typed the url incorrectly, which to me says the link is broken. Cavalryman (talk) 21:40, 5 October 2020 (UTC).

@Cavalryman: Sure it does, but when you check that same link at the Wayback Machine https://archive.org/web/ then you can find the archived version of the page. You've been an editor for over 6 years and 10,000 edits; are you telling me you've never heard of the Wayback Machine? Another way is to go to the original website and type in what you think the title of the page is in the search bar for that website. Both methods in this case give me a positive result. So yes, "technically" there is a "broken link", but the page is still available. See also Wikipedia:Link rot. Normal Op (talk) 22:23, 5 October 2020 (UTC)

If you wish to fix it you are welcome to. Cavalryman (talk) 22:31, 5 October 2020 (UTC).

Why, so you can revert it? I see the game you're playing. Normal Op (talk) 22:43, 5 October 2020 (UTC)

What on earth are you talking about? Cavalryman (talk) 23:21, 5 October 2020 (UTC).

Normal Op, this is the second time since your TBAN was lifted that you have accused me of some grand Machiavellian plot, all I can do is assure you that your imagination is far more active than mine and observe that such accusations without evidence are WP:PAs.

I have reviewed the links you have provided below, the link to the 2004 study does not include individual breed data (you have to email the KC to get that) but includes the following: Warning: The results of this survey and particularly the breed-specific analyses should be interpreted with caution. The overall response rate was only 24% with breed-specific response rates from 4.5% to 64.7%. While we had hoped to achieve an overall response rate of at least 40% we have, due to the high level of interest expressed, agreed to produce breed-specific summary reports for those breeds where the individual breed response rate was greater than or equal to 15%. The 2014 study includes a less strongly worded warning. I don’t feel that is good enough for inclusion in an article. Cavalryman (talk) 10:14, 6 October 2020 (UTC).

References

Merger proposal: Variety pages

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section. A summary of the conclusions reached follows.

The result of this discussion was merge all four varieties. Cavalryman (talk) 04:14, 24 November 2020 (UTC)

---

I propose to merge the four articles on the four breed varieties (Groenendael dog, Laekenois dog, Malinois dog and Tervuren dog) into this page. The majority of the world's kennel clubs, including the Belgian Société Royale Saint-Hubert and the Fédération Cynologique Internationale, classify it as a single breed with four varieties separated by coat type, the one notable exception is the AKC. The breed has a shared history and shared characteristics, including a shared breed standard ([6]) which discusses the different coat varieties, in much of the world discretionary interbreeding of varieties is also permitted. The majority of sources on the breed treat them as one with four varieties whilst the those that don't acknowledge their shared heritage and similarities. Cavalryman (talk) 22:40, 4 November 2020 (UTC).

Further to the above, the closely related Dutch Shepherd is bred in three different coat types (standard) and the Dutch Kennel Club treat them as varieties of the one breed in a similar manner as the Belgian Société Royale Saint-Hubert. Cavalryman (talk) 23:14, 5 November 2020 (UTC).

• To assist with decision-making, I provide the following data:

1. All 5 articles were created in April 2004
2. Belgian Shepherd is 20 kb in size, receives 778 visitors per day (average), and its quality standard is Good Article
3. Groenendael 6 kb in size, 164 visitors per day, quality is Start - it is going nowhere
4. Laekenois 5.8 kb in size, 110 visitors per day, quality is Start - it is going nowhere
5. Tervuren 6.7 kb in size, 231 visitors per day, quality is Start - it is going nowhere
6. Malinois is 20 kb in size, receives 2,964 visitors per day (average), and its quality standard is C

Much of the material contained in the 3 smallest articles can also be found in the Belgian Shepherd article: the same infobox, size, weight etc.

I have no doubt that all of these dogs would meet GNG. However, under WP:NOTABILITY there is WP:PAGEDECIDE, which advises us that there are times to create a stand-alone article and "There are other times when it is better to cover notable topics, that clearly should be included in Wikipedia, as part of a larger page about a broader topic, with more context."

Considering the content of WP:PAGEDECIDE in conjunction with the data provided above, I think that Groenendael, Laekenois, and Tervuren should be merged into Belgian Shepherd, however Malinois should remain as a stand-alone article based on its number of daily visitors (x4 that of Belgian Shepherd) and its potential for further development. The Malinois situation could then be reviewed in a year's time. William Harris (talk) 23:53, 4 November 2020 (UTC)

• Support merger, particularly given how similar the four varieties are in form and how closely their histories are intertwined. Having five separate articles on this breed would mean a lot of duplicated content. The Malinois, given the number of pageviews, may be kept separate but should definitely be cleaned up and revisited for merging at a later date.--SilverTiger12 (talk) 18:04, 5 November 2020 (UTC)

Additional Comment: I read through the Malinois article and it (a) has a number of statements that are missing sources, (b) way too many primary sources, and (c) is rather heavy on the "Notable individuals" and "In pop culture" sections. A clean up is definitely necessary (I'd do some myself if I weren't an outsider and rather busy at the moment).--SilverTiger12 (talk) 19:50, 6 November 2020 (UTC)

Another additional comment: After being WP:BOLD and removing some unsourced trivia, a poor quality image, and rearranging some more information into a more appropriate section, the Malinois page has dropped to about 19 kb. Most of the remaining information is either of questionable notability and/or can easily be incorporated into the Belgian Shepherd article if it isn't already.--SilverTiger12 (talk) 00:07, 7 November 2020 (UTC)

(Don't consider yourself an "outsider", SilverTiger. William Harris (talk) 01:27, 9 November 2020 (UTC))

I will second that. Further, at the end of this process I will likely conduct a thorough scrubbing of any pages that are not merged to remove all of the unsourced or information or information cited to unreliable sources. Cavalryman (talk) 04:04, 9 November 2020 (UTC).

Thanks for the kind words, but this cat doesn't really belong among dogs, so when I do intrude it'll just be to do some cleaning. :) --SilverTiger12 (talk) 18:11, 9 November 2020 (UTC)

A largish cat slinks out of the underbrush

It has been several weeks since this merge was proposed and no one has objected. All of the pages proposed to be merged have dropped in size since then, mostly due to unsourced information being removed (Malnois and Tervuren both had a problem with trivia-filled, citation-lacking pop culture sections). Is the merger going to go through? --SilverTiger12 (talk) 01:33, 24 November 2020 (UTC)

SilverTiger12, many thanks, this had slipped my mind. Cavalryman (talk) 04:14, 24 November 2020 (UTC).

• Support merger. William Harris (talk) 06:37, 24 November 2020 (UTC)

Post-proposal discussion

William Harris, if you have changed your mind about the Malinois I think it could be incorporated quite easily. Kind regards, Cavalryman (talk) 04:14, 24 November 2020 (UTC).

Given that Malinois is now only 13kb in size post-review, I believe that it can easily be incorporated into the Belgian Shepherd article, refer above support. William Harris (talk) 06:39, 24 November 2020 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Does the skin of a Belgian Molinois tummy turn black as they get older if they are fawn in color in color

I’m curious as the weather the tummy of a Belgian Malanoy is supposed to turn black or not as she gets older, when she’s fawn in color 75.89.250.3 (talk) 00:19, 1 February 2022 (UTC)

Part of the article on training recommends outdated training methodology

The sources are outdated and from the 1990s and 2000s. Current research suggests firm, dominance based dog training is outdated, dangerous, and inhumane. Rather positive reward based training is safer, humane, and is recommended by the American Veterinary Medical Association as well as the ASPCA. 2604:2D80:7678:300:A08B:6B9A:C329:9DD9 (talk) 01:02, 20 March 2024 (UTC)

A lot of the sources are outdated generic dog books that repeat mostly the same info but for different breeds. Unfortunately their low quality and repetition is what allows them to directly reference the subject - normally generic dog information is not included in breed articles. Traumnovelle (talk) 01:10, 5 April 2024 (UTC)