Talk:Battle of New Carthage

Mago Barca

In this article it says Opposing him were the three Carthaginian generals (Hasdrubal Barca, Mago and Hasdrubal Gisco), who were on bad terms with each other, geographically scattered (Hasdrubal Barca in central Spain, Mago near Gibraltar and Hasdrubal near the mouth of the Tagus river), and at least 10 days away from New Carthage. However in Livy 26.44 it reads: When Mago, the Carthaginian commander, saw that an attack was being prepared both by land and sea, he made the following disposition of his forces. From Livy's description it sounds to me as if Mago is in the city of New Carthage defending it - not some 10 days away! Am I misinterpreting one description or the other? Was Mago Barca at New Carthage or 10 days away near Gibraltar?--Doug Coldwell ^talk 12:35, 23 September 2011 (UTC)

In Livy 26.46 it goes on to say: From this point Scipio saw the enemy retreating in two directions; one body was making for a hill to the east of the city, which was being held by a detachment of 500 men; the others were going to the citadel where Mago, together with the men who had been driven from the walls, had taken refuge.--Doug Coldwell ^talk 12:35, 23 September 2011 (UTC)

Polybius says in Book 10.12 Mago, who was in command of the place, divided his regiment of a thousand men into two, leaving half of them on the citadel and stationing the others on the eastern hill. So, it appears to me that Mago was in fact at New Carthage and was in charge - not some 10 days away.--Doug Coldwell ^talk 19:44, 23 September 2011 (UTC)

Polybius says in Book 10.7.4&5 concerning Scipio Africanus's arrival to Spain: For on his arrival in Spain he set everyone on the alert and inquired from everyone about the circumstances of the enemy, and thus learnt that the Carthaginian forces were divided into three bodies. Mago, he heard, was posted on this side of the pillars of Hercules in the country of the people called Conii; Hasdrubal, son of Gesco, was in Lusitania near the mouth of the Tagus; and the other Hasdrubal was besieging a city in the territory of the Carpetani: none of them being within less than ten days' march from New Carthage. However Polybius later says in Book 10.12.2 when Scipio circled New Carthage: Mago, who was in command of the place, divided his regiment of a thousand men into two, leaving half of them on the citadel and stationing the others on the eastern hill. How did Mago make it back to New Carthage if Scipio had it surrounded?--Doug Coldwell ^talk 12:02, 24 September 2011 (UTC)

Reading Livy and Polybius, it seems that neither Scipio nor Mago were near Cartagena when Scipio decided to attack it, so maybe Mago had enough time to get there before Scipio did. Adam Bishop (talk) 15:15, 24 September 2011 (UTC)

Good thought Adam, however this appears not to be true according to Livy 26.42 No one knew of his intended march (on New Carthage) except C. Laelius, who was sent round with his fleet and instructed to regulate the pace of his vessels so that he might enter the harbour at the same time that the army showed itself. Seven days after leaving the Ebro, the land and sea forces reached New Carthage simultaneously. A few lines before this Livy talks of the 3 Carthaginian generals being in 3 different parts of Spain - some 10 days away from New Carthage. It was a secret mission that the 3 Carthaginian generals knew nothing about. Assuming Mago found out of Scipio's secret mission and headed to New Carthage the same day Scipio started his mission, he still would have arrived at New Carthage 3 days AFTER Scipio took control.--Doug Coldwell ^talk 19:34, 24 September 2011 (UTC)

Even in the article on Mago Barca it says: Publius Cornelius Scipio the Younger, exploiting the lack of coordination among the Carthaginian generals, and the scattered location of their armies, ended up taking Cartagena in a daring expedition in 209 BC. Mago and his army was 3 days march from Cartagena at that time.--Doug Coldwell ^talk 20:39, 25 September 2011 (UTC)

476 artillery pieces?

Call me picky, but what kind of "artillery" are we talking about here, given that this was quite some time before the invention/discovery of gun powder? Catapults? Ballistae? Is there a proper source for this? 62.96.234.7 (talk) 13:25, 29 June 2021 (UTC)

Proposal to rename the article

The title of this article strikes me as a little odd. This is the English-language Wikipedia, so why are we giving articles titles in foreign languages unless there is strong support for this in the sources. So I checked all of the high quality, reliable sources of the past 40 years I could find, 19 of them. Leaving aside Lazenby 1996 who uses "Cartagena", there are 5 works which use "Carthago Nova" and 13 works, but only 11 authors, who use "New Carthage". These are listed here. I therefore propose a move to "Battle of New Carthage". I also propose removing the "(209 BC)" disambiguater as unnecessary; while there was an attempt to recapture the city in 206 BC it is little known and is currently a red link. I suspect that 100% of searchers for either battle of New Carthage or battle of Carthago Nova are looking for this article. Gog the Mild (talk) 18:06, 14 April 2023 (UTC)

I was the last person to move the page, moving from Cartagena to Carthago Nova, with the justification that the former name is anachronistic. It also isn't really used in the classical studies literature. While I've heard it more often as Carthago Nova, I've no objection to translating Carthago Nova to New Carthage. This is the main article – in the same way the Battle of Thermopylae is the one with Leonidas – I have no objection to omission of the disambiguating year in brackets. Ifly6 (talk) 19:31, 14 April 2023 (UTC)

GA Review

This review is transcluded from Talk:Battle of Carthago Nova (209 BC)/GA1. The edit link for this section can be used to add comments to the review.

Reviewer: Ifly6 (talk · contribs) 23:52, 14 April 2023 (UTC)

GA review (see here for what the criteria are, and here for what they are not)

1. It is reasonably well written.

   a. (prose, spelling, and grammar):

   No immediate issues here.

   b. (MoS for lead, layout, word choice, fiction, and lists):

   Lede is fine. Layout is fine. No objectionable wording. Fiction is irrelevant and lists are fine.

2. It is factually accurate and verifiable.

   a. (reference section):

   Bibliography meets GA standards.

   b. (citations to reliable sources):

   See infra.

   c. (OR):

   Will review.

   d. (copyvio and plagiarism):

   No obvious plagiarism. Will review.

3. It is broad in its coverage.

   a. (major aspects):

   b. (focused):

4. It follows the neutral point of view policy.

   Fair representation without bias:

5. It is stable.

   No edit wars, etc.:

   Title under discussion but not a matter for GA.

6. It is illustrated by images and other media, where possible and appropriate.

   a. (images are tagged and non-free content have non-free use rationales):

   b. (appropriate use with suitable captions):

   Images are relevant and captions are informative.

7. Overall:

   Pass/fail:

(Criteria marked are unassessed)

Will start actual line-by-line review soon. Ifly6 (talk) 23:52, 14 April 2023 (UTC)

Discussion

RS of two sources

• (From above, under 2(b).) Pen & Sword is not an academic publisher. Carey does not seem to be an expert on Roman warfare or on the period. Similarly, Bagnall is a soldier. Neither of these are part of the reliable peer reviewed scholarship. Miles is fine, though I think RS would also prefer his academic publications over his Penguin ones. Ifly6 (talk) 00:36, 15 April 2023 (UTC)

Addressed at first mention.

RS of two sources (moved)

Pen & Sword is not an academic publisher.

"Editors may also use material from reliable non-academic sources, particularly if it appears in respected mainstream publications. Other reliable sources include ... Books published by respected publishing houses"

Carey does not seem to be an expert on Roman warfare or on the period.

He is a professor of history and military studies and the author of Warfare in the Ancient World. Which GAN criteria are you looking at when you make that comment?

Similarly, Bagnall is a soldier.

Bagnall retrained as a military historian and was a fellow of Balliol College when he wrote that work.

Neither of these are part of the reliable peer reviewed scholarship.

To the contrary, the works of a professor of history and a fellow of Balliol College exemplify the peer review process. Which in any case is not required at any level of Wikipedia.

Miles is fine, though I think RS would also prefer his academic publications over his Penguin ones.

The name of the publisher has nothing to do with whether a source is academic or not. Which GAN criteria are you looking at when you make that comment?

All of my comments are related to the definition of reliable source, which itself is referenced by GAN. My perspective of Pen and Sword comes largely from how badly its books cover the political culture of the late republic (my main field of focus). Eg https://en.wiki.x.io/wiki/Talk:Sulla#Source_reliability. I'm aware of what Carey wrote. His other publications make it clear that ancient warfare is not his field, which is my meaning. The one review of that book by a specialist in ancient history was lukewarm. Hannibal's last battle received no reviews at all; that seldom augurs well. The one review of Bagnall was negative, especially criticising his "cavalier" treatment of modern scholarship, how he "falls for [modern] fantasies", how his "grasp of the material seems shaky", and how he does very little source criticism. I feel source criticism and engagement with the modern scholarship are necessary in Roman studies to be counted reliable given the many traps the ancient historians leave all over the place; but maybe my interpretation of WP:RS is exceptionally and absurdly strict. Ifly6 (talk) 20:00, 17 April 2023 (UTC)

Both of those sources are waaay above WP:RS standard. They are above FAC standard, which is a fair bit higher. I could source to a reputable newspaper or a BBC article and that would meet WP:RS. Stepping away from the letter of RS, I agree that some P&S material is shaky and needs handling with care, or not at all, but any book on ancient military history by Carey sails through RS. That some academics get snotty about a work, or that it is short of "academic" reviews is neither here nor there in RS.

Suggestions

(These are all suggestions and you can implement or ignore discretionarily. If there is anything truly important I will bold it.)

Lede

• MOS:ERA advises use of non-breaking spaces between years and era dates.

This is not required by the GAN criteria.

I am aware. As I stated above, these are all suggestsion and you can implement or ignore discretionarily. My focus has always been on political culture, which perhaps may colour my remarks. If you think them perhaps too in-depth for a military history article, certainly make the point. Ifly6 (talk) 20:00, 17 April 2023 (UTC)

Understood. Apologies if I came across a little terse. I try to put a response to any reviewer comment, preferably more than just "no" ( :-) ).

• Statement in lede that Roman presence was all but extinguished seems like an exaggeration and seems inconsistent with the description of a commander, an area, etc below. Perhaps reword to In 211 BC the Romans were defeated at battle of the Upper Baetis, reducing the Roman presence on the peninsula to a small territory in the north-east. I would also omit (modern Spain and Portugal); you say it below anyway and I think readers can be expected to know what Iberia is.

Rephrased.

And, trust me on this, hardly anyone knows where, or even what, Iberia is.

Background

• It doesn't appear that Miles 2011 p. 220 supports the claim that Carthage owned much of Iberia in 218 BC. The passage there discusses Hamilcar's conquests c. 235–30 BC of "lower Andalusia, [two river routes]... as well as pushing eastward to the coast line opposite the island of Ibiza". It then talks about changing relations between Barcids and the metropole and then silver coins. Ifly6 (talk) 21:51, 17 April 2023 (UTC)

"much of Iberia" is a reasonable WP:SUMMARY and paraphrase of what Miles says - what you quote plus "the occupation of Southern Spain progess[ing]" and mines being brought under control.

• I would mention the inciting incident of the war also was in Spain, with the ultimatum presented to Carthage over Saguntum.

Why? It has almost no relevance to this article and happened ten years earlier.

• Perhaps mention that the Roman commanders in Iberia were Scipios? As to future-Africanus' qualifications, Zimmerman in Hoyos Companion p 292 and Lowe 2000 make a good point re personal ties [of future-Africanus] to native aristocrats which is worth including.

Why? They had been dead for nearly two years and played no role in this battle.

• Add a comma in When the Celtiberians deserted the Romans between Celtiberians and deserted.

I assume that you mean after "deserted", in which case done.

Yes, my apologies. Ifly6 (talk) 20:00, 17 April 2023 (UTC)

• Expand as to what the Romans held, Edwell says only a small strip of coastline north of the Ebro at your citation location. Zimmerman instead says at p 291 Rome's position [was]... thrown back to... 218.

"holding on to a small lodgement in north-east Iberia" is a perfectly good paraphrase of "a small strip of coastline north of the Ebro".

• Neither source connects this defeat, which they leave unnamed, to the Battle of the Upper Baetis; while I might know that is the case, the sources don't so attest.

Good point. Deleted. I already have sorting out our article on the battle of the Upper Baetis on my to do list.

Good luck with that. There's a lot of work that needs to be done all over the place! Ifly6 (talk) 20:00, 17 April 2023 (UTC)

I am working through it. 1PW - tick; 3PW - tick; Truceless - tick; 2PW - a good start, but work to do. See User:Gog the Mild/Promoted articles.

• Consider use of {{efn}}? I would move the information in the note, regardless, that the commanders were Scipios, into the main text.

Changed to efn. Good spot. The information on Scipio's relatives is very marginal, and barely worth including as a footnote.

• Scipio commanded a total of 31,000 men: 28,000 infantry and 3,000 cavalry Is this a modern estimate or an ancient one? Who made it?

As with all information in this article, it is what is what is given in the source to which it is cited.

I made this comment because the credibility of ancient troop counts is low (eg Herodotus' 2.5 million man invasion). I would prefer troop estimates which are validated against modern scholarship. Ifly6 (talk) 20:00, 17 April 2023 (UTC)

You should see what I write when I include a "Primary sources" section. Eg Zama is currently at FAC: "the classicist Adrian Goldsworthy says Livy's "reliability is often suspect";[14] and the historian Philip Sabin refers to Livy's "military ignorance".[15] Dexter Hoyos describes Livy's account of Zama as "bizarrely at odds with Polybius’ which he seems not to understand fully"." and " Hoyos accuses Appian of bizarre invention in his account of Zama; Michael Taylor states that it is "idiosyncratic"." You should read it.

The article cites the information to Lazenby, Bagnall (don't wince) and Goldsworthy. They all agree. Yes, I could OR that they lifted that from Polybius, but so what. It's not my fault if a consensus of modern scholars agree with him. And like everything in Wikipedia where there is a scholarly consensus, we just state it in Wikipedia's voice and move on.

• The reasons for Scipio's irregular appointment are worth including a sentence on. I would also mention he was privatus and had never held an imperium-endowed magistracy. He was the first person so appointed. This is big for reasons beyond youth.

Wikipedia is usually written in summary style and the GAN criteria suggest that the article "stays focused on the topic without going into unnecessary detail."

• This division of Carthaginian forces in Iberia, to the extent that it was difficult for them to mutually support each other, ... perhaps This division of Carthaginian forces made it difficult for them to support each other. with some splits in the run-on sentence.

Neat. Done.

• Goldsworthy Fall p 247 directly connects tribal loyalty to perceptions of victory. I would do the same.

Actually he doesn't. He writes of the side perceived as being "the stronger". Even then he is nuanced, "above all else", "at least locally".

We can disagree about the level of certainty Goldsworthy (or I) express. The reason why I brought it up is because I'd prefer to see a direct connection between the optics of rapid victory and Scipio's strategic position contextualised to Hispania. Something to that effect would add much. Ifly6 (talk) 20:00, 17 April 2023 (UTC)

Ok. I think I know what you mean. Something like "The defeats of 211 BC had badly damaged Rome's standing with the Iberian tribes. A rapid Roman victory would stiffen the morale of those tribes which had remained loyal to Rome and encourage others to come over." Yes?

Something of that sort, pretty much, though I would word it more analytically – "Why does victory here matter for Spanish tribes?" being the first question – and deduce it out though. Ifly6 (talk) 21:51, 17 April 2023 (UTC)

If only Wikipedia allowed rhetorical questions and OR deductions. Let me see what I can source.

More words than I am really comfortable adding on a side issue, but done.

• Such a tactic could have led to an inconclusive campaign, at the end of which the Romans would have had to retreat... suggest Lack of decision would have forced a Roman withdrawal after an inconclusive campaign, which would have negatively affected the reliability of Rome's Iberian allies.

I prefer the current wording, which preserves the chronological sequence.

I am possibly over careful in this respect, but whenever I break chronological order, reviewers complain.

Prelude

• WP:CAPFRAG (The text of captions should not be specially formatted (with italics, for example), except in ways that would apply if it occurred in the main text) indicates that your image captions should not be centred. Re the image, consider citing Coarelli, F (2002). "I ritratti di 'Mario' e 'Silla' a Monaco e il sepolcro degli Scipioni". Eutopia. 2002 (1): 47–75. ISSN 1121-1628.

I disagree that CAPFRAG coovers this. Note, for example, that all cations in infoboxes default to centred captions. In any event, this is not required by the GAN criteria.

• Comma between Iberia and Scipio? When he arrived in Iberia Scipio...

Nope. I don't use that type of commaisation.

• Zimmermann (2015) p. 292 gives a source, namely that he made this comment in a later letter to Philip V; I think Briscoe 1989 discusses how this might be a post hoc rationalisation; that might be worth including for source criticism.

I don't think it would be.

You don't think that the possibility that Scipio's later-stated reasons are actually a post hoc rationalisation is relevant? Discussions of whether Falkenhayn did the same at Verdun have spawned an entire literature (though of course when you lose people care more). I would at least mention the possibility. Ifly6 (talk) 20:00, 17 April 2023 (UTC)

I personally imagine that they are. Like just about every other military commander ever. So what? How is that relevant to the article.

• I would only mention the lagoon and not the tides, inasmuch as your narrative later gives a (much more compelling) reconstruction re sluice gates. Scipio also reputedly learned details of how fordable the lagoon to the north was, in particular the effect of the tides and, possibly, the wind on it.

Of the two main ancient sources, one only mentions the tides. Of the modern sources, several only mention either the tides or the wind or both. While I also find Lowe's argument persuasive, it is not for me to cherry pick sources I like, but give a representative picture of what the modern RSs are saying.

In my view, although the reliable sources are scant on this matter because ancient battle reconstruction is not in vogue, the trend seems strongly against accepting the tides (inasmuch as they are physically and mathematically impossible). The most common given explanation is the wind, per p 460 n 8 here: Richardson, J H (2018). "P Cornelius Scipio and the capture of New Carthage: the tide, the wind, and other fantasies". Classical Quarterly. 68 (2): 458–474. doi:10.1017/S0009838818000368. ISSN 0009-8388. The story of the ebb of the water... is simply unhistorical. Note though that Richardson dismisses the received story of how NC was captured entirely – I agree with him here, handwavery about the wind also is not credible – and thinks it is a myth created to make SA look badass. But in this matter I may be more critical than most; perhaps say instead that Polyb and Appian assert tides and that Livy asserts wind. Ifly6 (talk) 20:00, 17 April 2023 (UTC)

• I would mention the presence of the Spanish hostages, per Goldsworthy 2003 (In the name of Rome) p. 58.

They get mentioned later.

• The sources given don't seem to support your phraseology that He [Scipio] was aware [of insert details here]. I would rephrase in terms of [insert details] simply being the case.

I think it's a reasonable paraphrase, but I take your point. So I rephrased.

• The person in command with the remaining troops was probably Marcus Junius Silanus, per MRR 1.287.

Yes, he was.

• second in command → second-in-command. I would also mention his rank – praefectus classis – per MRR 1.288.

Wiktionary gives the unhyphenated version as an acceptable alternate spelling. As this is the English language Wikipedia I try to avoid foreign words as much as I can. "Second in command" should be fine for most readers.

• The estimate for troops brought and left in Goldsworthy 2003 (In the name of Rome) comes from Polyb. 10.9.4–7 and Liv. 26.42.1, per p. 449 n. 11. I would make it clear that is the source of the numbers and, if possible, replace them with modern estimates.

That's not how Wikipedia works.

Writing something like Goldsworthy 2004, p. ##, 449 n. 11, citing Polyb. 10.9.4–7 and Liv. 26.42.1 is definitely how Wikipedia works. It is merely the full citation for where Goldsworthy found those numbers. I recommended a further dive into troop assessments because I don't believe the ancient sources' counts (exaggerated for commanders' benefit at the start; see eg Val Max 2.8.1 noting legislation by Cato requiring commanders to swear to the accuracy of their kill counts when returning to the city), as I felt it would improve the article. Ifly6 (talk) 20:00, 17 April 2023 (UTC)

No. Really. That is not how Wikipedia works with its citations. Or even how history works with its citations. Wikipedia is a tertiary source. If there is a scholarly consensus, we repeat it and move on.

• Goldsworthy 2003 (In the name of Rome) pp. 59–60 seems to contradict Lazenby re when Scipio revealed their objective to his senior staff: It is not known at what point Scipio revealed their objective to his senior officers.

I don't see that. They both agree that they didn't know the destination when they left Terraco, and they probably realised they were heading for Cartagena when they camped outside. I assume that both would agree that the information was imparted at some point between these two events.

Battle

Nb I've also made a few grammar corrections here and there.

• Goldsworthy 2004 p. 61 seems like it should be pp. 60–61.

I don't see it. Which part of the article text is covered by page 60?

• When you refer to Lowe 2000 pp 43–44's citations of Polybius and Livy, I would encourage parallel citation to those sources:

As a historian, wanting to understand a tangential subject, if I find I'm reading a paper or encyclopedia article that doesn't at least show awareness of the primary sources, I stop reading and look for something better.

That's your choice. Wikipedia is not here for serious historians. It is a generalist tertiary source. Where necessary I do discuss the primary sources - sample the articles I have improved from the top three sections of User:Gog the Mild/Promoted articles to see examples. If you want a discussion of the primary sources, read the more serious secondary sources, not Wikipedia. In passing, I have a perfectly good grasp of the primary sources thanks; if they are not mentioned anywhere that you think they should could your default assumption be that I have done that deliberately? Thanks.

if there are no citations of primary sources, then, as Andrew points out, they will not value Wikipedia articles

Serious historians value Wikipedia for what it is - a generalist tertiary source - not as an alternative to an academic journal.

a more pressing reason to offer citations to primary sources is as a service to our readers, who will then find reason to begin their research by reading/consulting the relevant articles on Wikipedia. Offering these helps our readers, reducing the time they need to track down information with links to these passages

Again, that is not what Wikipedia is here to do. If someone's interest is piqued, the secondary sources are there for them to consult. They in turn contain citations referencing the primary sources. That is how Wikipedia works. If you disagree, could we debate it elsewhere, or could you ask for a third opinion?

These are third opinions. I made none of the comments in {{tq2}}. As to the discussion thread I linked, I could conceive of three positions: (1) primary sources okay, (2) primary sources but only when cited by a secondary source, and (3) secondary sources only. I don't think anyone there advocated for (3), which is what I think you're advocating for; I at the time advocated for (2) and against primary source primacy, which is a very strange Wikipedian predilection. Ifly6 (talk) 14:29, 19 April 2023 (UTC)

You are putting words in my mouth. I have not advocated anything. I have stated what I understand to be how Wikipedia works, without suggesting whether this is how I would prefer it to work. It is certainly possible to have various views on this, I may have one myself - I haven't said. But WP:SCHOLARSHIP and WP:RSPRIMARY seem pretty unambiguous, and even more so in how they are implemented in practice on Wikipedia.

See this WP:CGR archived discussion. Ifly6 (talk) 22:45, 17 April 2023 (UTC)

• I don't think that Lowe 2000 discusses Polyb in terms of near-contemporary and usually reliable Greek historian Polybius at 43–44. Perhaps reword simply to Polyb says XYZ, Livy says ABC, etc.

This is approaching WP:BLUE, but now cited.

• It seems non-chronological to put to the sack before the massacres; Goldsworthy In the name... p. 65 discusses the Romans first massacring everyone they encountered then at a signal sacking the city in an organised manner. This ordered narrative of the massacres then the sack also is in the (very nice) book by Gabriel Baker, Spare no one (2021), pp. 118–19 (BMCR; the book largely relates to the culture of Roman atrocities).

I think that we are disagreeing as to the definition of "sack". See Goldsworthy "Carthage" page 275, "Rome" page 65, or Lazenby page 139 - they all directly reference Polybius, which I thought you'd like - where they explicitly include "slaughter" as part of "sack".

As the massacre is a part of the sack, the sack needs mentioning first.

• What terms he was granted is not known: I don't see anything in Goldsworthy In the name... p. 65 talking about the lack of knowledge about the specific terms under which Mago surrendered.

I think it is clear from context, but as it is a trivial point I have deleted it.

• 10,000 Carthaginians → 10,000 men or inhabitants (?), per Goldsworthy Fall p. 276: "Of the 10,000 men captured, the citizens were released, the non-citizen[s]... were made public slaves..."

"men" specified.

Aftermath

• The unexpected blow caused the Carthaginian generals to fall back on the defensive, continuing to disagree among themselves; although in total they far outnumbered the Romans, they made no attempt to combine their forces. Perhaps reword to The unexpected blow caused the Carthaginian generals to fall back on the defensive; continuing to disagree among themselves, they made no attempt to combine their forces even though in total they far outnumbered the Romans.

Done.

• Gades, defected to the Romans. Miles 2013 says that Gades surrendered, as does Briscoe in CAH² p 60. Both cite Livy 28.36–37, which in translation also uses the word "surrendered" (in original deduntur). I certainly can see how that in context that could be a defection; but it doesn't seem anyone characterises it that specific way.

It seems a perfectly good paraphrase to me.

The reason why I brought it up is that "defection" to me implies a sense of malice or dishonesty; while surrender implies nothing of the sort. Eg a caught spy "defects" to the enemy while an honourable commander "surrenders" to the enemy after a hard-fought battle. Ifly6 (talk) 21:57, 18 April 2023 (UTC)

"Defect: To abandon or turn against; to cease or change one's loyalty, especially from a military organisation or political party." No mention of malice, dishonesty nor dishonour.

The second definition is "To desert one's army, to flee from combat", which is probably where you get the negative connotations from. But in this case a city clearly cannot flee nor be a part of an army, so I assumed that a reader would gather that the first type of defect was intended.

References etc

• I would that Goldsworthy In the name of Rome was first published in 2003. Your date is correct, however, because it is regardless that edition's publication date.

Done.

• Lazenby Hannibal's war (noted currently as 1998), according to WorldCat, was first published in 1978.

1998 is a new edition, with a new preface, so the 1998, on its own, is correct.

I know. As with above, I'm recommending something like |orig-date=First published 1978. Ifly6 (talk) 22:50, 17 April 2023 (UTC)

That's only done for reprints of the same edition. As this is a new edition the "original" publication date is 1998. Ok, checking the template guidance, let me try something.

Further comments

Hi Ifly6 and thanks for that. Your comments to date all addressed and your next instalment awaited. Gog the Mild (talk) 17:09, 17 April 2023 (UTC)

Thanks for taking time to respond. I've had a bit of a time to respond to your comments off-the-cuff. I'll probably continue with further remarks later today. I've given some responses to your responses, but I want to stress here that they are not GA criteria-related and that they are my attempts to push for what I think would be improvements. Ifly6 (talk) 20:00, 17 April 2023 (UTC)

I do want to say very well done. The article is in almost infinitely better shape than it was when I edited it (very shortly) a mere five days ago. Wikipedia has no deadlines but it's always nice to see fast and competent work. Ifly6 (talk) 22:48, 17 April 2023 (UTC)

Thank you. I appreciate that. I have, I think, a good grasp of the HQ RSs and have improved numerous PW articles over the past few years, so once I have got to grips with a topic it doesn't take long for me to generate something. The down side of this of course is that sometimes the detail is a bit rough and ready.

And I seem to have ridden rough shod over a couple of your changes - apologies for that. Gog the Mild (talk) 11:19, 19 April 2023 (UTC)

• We seem to be getting well, well off topic from a GAN review of this article. I would be grateful if you could indicate which comments you feel are essential for GA. Or, better, copy them to a separate section. I could then address them and you could pass or fail the nomination. We could then continue discussion of other potential improvements on the article's talk page, and the more general discussion of what Wikipedia exists to do elsewhere. What do you think? Gog the Mild (talk) 11:29, 19 April 2023 (UTC)

They're the ones in bold above. I'm currently at work but will take a look at it tonight. Ifly6 (talk) 14:28, 19 April 2023 (UTC)

Reviewing the changes made and the matters bolded, I have no further comments and pass. Again, well done. Ifly6 (talk) 22:48, 19 April 2023 (UTC)

And done. Gog the Mild (talk) 11:48, 20 April 2023 (UTC)

Did you know nomination

Transclusion

The following is an archived discussion of the DYK nomination of the article below. Please do not modify this page. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as this nomination's talk page, the article's talk page or Wikipedia talk:Did you know), unless there is consensus to re-open the discussion at this page. No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was: promoted by AirshipJungleman29 (talk) 19:34, 20 June 2023 (UTC)

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• Article history

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• ... that after a failed Roman assault at the Battle of New Carthage, the romans launched a second assault in the afternoon, surprising the Carthaginian army? Source: Goldsworthy, Adrian (2004) [2003]. In the Name of Rome: The Men Who Won the Roman Empire. London: Phoenix. ISBN 978-0-7538-1789-6. Page 62-63 , Goldsworthy, Adrian (2006) [2000]. The Fall of Carthage: The Punic Wars 265–146 BC. London: Phoenix. ISBN 978-0-304-36642-2. Page 274 , Lowe, Benedict J (2000). "Polybius 10.10.12 and the Existence of Salt-Flats at Carthago Nova". Phoenix. Classical Association of Canada. 54 (1/2 (Spring - Summer)): 39–52. doi:10.2307/1089089. JSTOR 1089089. page 42
  • ALT1: ... that the martial booty seized by the Romans after the Battle of New Carthage, containing 63 merchant ships, numerous catapults, large amounts of weapons, and more, has been described as "colossal"? Source: Hoyos, Dexter (2003). Hannibal's Dynasty: Power and Politics in the Western Mediterranean, 247–183 BC. London: Routledge. ISBN 978-0-203-41782-9. Page 144 , Bagnall, Nigel (1999). The Punic Wars: Rome, Carthage and the Struggle for the Mediterranean. London: Pimlico. ISBN 978-0-7126-6608-4. Page 209
  • Reviewed: Template:Did you know nominations/German submarine U-1206

Improved to Good Article status by Gog the Mild (talk) and Ifly6 (talk). Nominated by Onegreatjoke (talk) at 18:51, 24 April 2023 (UTC). Post-promotion hook changes for this nom will be logged at Template talk:Did you know nominations/Battle of New Carthage; consider watching this nomination, if it is successful, until the hook appears on the Main Page.

• I would prefer the second element rather than the former. J H Richardson CQ 68 (2018) 458ff raises pretty reasonable doubts – largely about physical impossibility – as to why we shouldn't entirely believe the ancient stories of the city's capture. Ifly6 (talk) 19:03, 24 April 2023 (UTC)

• Just in case there is trouble regarding this down the road, can I note that I was unaware of this article's nomination for DYK until just now, three days after the event. Gog the Mild (talk) 16:13, 27 April 2023 (UTC)

• Reviewer needed. Thank you. BlueMoonset (talk) 04:05, 24 May 2023 (UTC)
  • ALT1 is a good hook but perhaps a little long (199 characters): how about cutting to "... that the martial booty seized by the Romans after the Battle of New Carthage included 63 merchant ships, numerous catapults, large amounts of weapons and more?" UndercoverClassicist (talk) 18:23, 6 June 2023 (UTC)
    • (Labeling the above as ALT1b) Edge3 (talk) 01:05, 20 June 2023 (UTC)

Approve ALT1b, may accept ALT1. Article was nominated within 7 days of achieving GA. Clearly long enough. Neutral and well-cited. All sources offline, accepted in good faith. Earwig only flagged the titles of sources, so no copyvio detected. QPQ done. I note that the article is currently at FAC.

All proposed hooks are sourced to offline sources. ALT0 is questioned (see comment by Ifly6 above and also on article's talk page). ALT1 is compliant with the rules (just barely below the character limit), but I much prefer and approve UndercoverClassicist's shorter version ALT1b. Edge3 (talk) 01:05, 20 June 2023 (UTC)

Comment

I would prefer the latter, about what was seized; Richardson raises some pretty reasonable reasons why we shouldn't entirely believe the story of the city's capture. Ifly6 (talk) 19:00, 24 April 2023 (UTC)

Helen of Troy

I remember something about Helen of Troy and Carthage . Could this be the key to Philadelphia in Turkey in Athens?Italic I did not know that carthage was in Spain Ujwllop8852 (talk) 18:20, 27 March 2024 (UTC)

New Carthage. The city of Carthage was in North Africa. It is now a suburb of Tunis. Troy: you may be thinking of the myths of Dido and/or Aeneas. Gog the Mild (talk) 18:48, 27 March 2024 (UTC)

The civilians who fought in the battle fought in the militia

The infobox mentions an unkown number of civilians, but the civilians who fought in the defence of the city served in the militia. There might have been civilians who supported the defenders, but if we include these in the strength numbers (usually combatants), we have to include them in every siege there is (most sieges don't include them) and we'll have a herculean task ahead of us. LuciusHistoricus (talk) 19:55, 8 August 2024 (UTC)

You are trying to apply logic and consistency to Wikipedia. Wikipedia doesn't work like that. The HQ RSs mention three categories of defenders. This is reflected, as it should be, in both the article and the infobox. If you wish to make changes, which is fine, you need to base them on what the consensus of the sources say, not on what makes sense to you, or is consistent between articles, or pretty much anything else. (And if you are applying logic, a civilian combatant and a member of an organised militia are two different things.) I refer to 19 sources in this article - I read quite a few more in preparing it - and it was fairly thoroughly poked at at FAC. Barring new publications, which happens every so often, there is unlikely to be much to pick at, and it is more unlikely to be in the infobox. If, say, you read all of the sources here which mention the numbers of defenders, and found a couple of new ones which were HQ RSs, then - hypothetically and IMO improbably -you may be able to come back saying that a majority don't mention civilians. Then we could have a discussion. But you seem on the ball, why are you concentrating on FAs - "the best articles produced by the Wikipedia community" - when there are so many articles at C or worse. Take one of those and you trusty Goldsworthy and see if you can improve it enough for Wikipedia:WikiProject Military history/Assessment/Requests to agree that it is B class. Then you will really be improving the encyclopedia and the readers experience. It is also how I started in Wikipedia. Gog the Mild (talk) 20:45, 8 August 2024 (UTC)

Is this a nice way of telling me to buzz off and edit some C class articles? You don't even acknowledge Goldsworthy as a source, if the edit is one of mine. What's that about?

Anyway, on topic, the strength numbers are meant to list combantants, not list non-combatants. In this case 27,500 for the Romans and 3,000 for the Carthaginians. LuciusHistoricus (talk) 12:32, 9 August 2024 (UTC)

Well, well, on checking the seven most obvious sources, only Goldsworthy talks of Mago levying more than 2,000 civilians. So the consensus of the HQ RSs is against the current version. But for describing them as "armed civilians": Goldsworthy (2004) p 61 "Mago ordered the armed civilians to sally"; Lazenby (1998) p 137 "he armed 2000 of the strongest citizens"; Hoyos (2015) p 323 "2,000 armed citizens"; Goldsworthy (2006) p 273 "2,000 armed townsfolk ... eager but untrained citizens". 'Civilian levies' seems a reasonable summary and I have changed the infobox accordingly. Flag up here if you think the sources could be better summarised with different wording. Thanks. Gog the Mild (talk) 14:08, 9 August 2024 (UTC)

I'm happy with the infobox as it is now. Thanks. LuciusHistoricus (talk) 14:59, 9 August 2024 (UTC)

Corona Muralis vs Corona Civica

The source used in this article (Goldsworthy 2006, pp. 275–276.) clearly states that Quintus Trebellius and Sextus Digitus were awarded the corona civica, however the page for Trebellia gens states that Quintus Trebellius was awarded the corona muralis citing Livy, xxvi. 48. And that source indeed says as such. Could someone more knowledgeable on the subject discern which source is to be trusted and correct the text in either this or that article?

Kachoufuuei (talk) 14:35, 9 November 2024 (UTC)

Hi Kachoufuuei. Livy is a primary source and as such should be used with extreme care, see WP:PRIMARY and WP:SCHOLARSHIP. Also, this article is a featured article and as such sources need to be "high quality" as well as "reliable"; for history articles this usually means modern academic historians. Remember that Wikipedia itself is not a reliable source, see WP:UGC "Examples of unacceptable user-generated sources are ... Wikipedia", so you can never appeal to what one article says to edit another. *And* Livy was a military incompetent: a sample of modern opinions lifted from a different article I wrote "he was also openly pro-Roman.[11][12][13] His accounts of military encounters are often demonstrably inaccurate; the classicist Adrian Goldsworthy says Livy's "reliability is often suspect",[14] and the historian Philip Sabin refers to Livy's "military ignorance".[15] Dexter Hoyos describes Livy's account of Zama as "bizarrely at odds with Polybius’ which he seems not to understand fully".[16]"

You should feel free amend the Quintus T page yourself, citing it to Goldsworthy. Gog the Mild (talk) 20:49, 9 November 2024 (UTC)

Sourcing for the corona muralis should be to secondary scholarship, which exists. Eg:

• Richardson 2018 p 473 n 70: ...two men claimed the corona muralis... Sex Digitius.. the other, Q Trebellius
• Bragg, Edward (2007). From arma to fama: the military record of Roman republican commanders in speech and text (219–19 BC) (DPhil thesis). Oxford University. p. 18. Scipio informed a contio of his men, after the capture of New Carthage in 210 BC, that Q Trebellius and Sex Digitius were both being awarded the corona muralis because they had reached the top of the city-wall at the same time

Goldsworthy (2006) p 276 n 10, the proximate citation, goes to p 386 n 10, which cites Polybius 10.13.6–10.15.7. Searching a publicly available translation, the whole of book 10 does not discuss any Trebellius or Digitius. He also cites Livy 26.47.1–26.49.10, which does support the corona muralis. Also just from background knowledge, the civic crown wouldn't have been the appropriate award in this circumstance; the mural crown is the one for being first over the wall. Goldsworthy almost certainly confused the two here. Ifly6 (talk) 04:32, 10 November 2024 (UTC)

I've made an edit citing the sources given above. Ifly6 (talk) 04:38, 10 November 2024 (UTC)

Grand. Good stuff Ifly6. Gog the Mild (talk) 14:42, 12 November 2024 (UTC)