Talk:Adolescent sexuality/Archive 2

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Yes you have deleted data.

The first thing i did when I saw your name on the history with no explanation whatsoever was to compare edits.

Guess what I found? You did delete a lot of my data, and other peoples contributions as well.... While some of it might have been additional info on other organizations who are of opposing views to Lynn Ponton, Leonard sax etc. they were only put there to try and eqaul out the balance, with people stating views AGAINST adolescent sexuality being kept WAAYYY up top in the article, and only one tiny little author being mentioned as a 'minority' view, It compells me to try and make it more even so people, when reading the article... will have information they want and/or need to make a decision if they havn't done so already or arej ust looking for a good encyclopedia article to help them with a delimma etc. (Trust me, this is the other MAJOR side of the debate, while there might not be many people who share that view, they still make up roughly the other half of the debate, so they SHOULD be included in full, or at least a little bit more then a scanty reference)

So I hope that you can see my concerns Illuminato, and while I will try to be as civil as possible, You should learn to be a little bit giving to other view points in the article, i mean?, is deleting a rough summary of the 3 major organizations that make up the opposing view points REALLY a valid deletion?.

Because doing so just biases the article even more and makes you look like you're pushing your own agenda as you have seemed to do many times in the past, Besides.. all I WANT you to do is to provide some of Leonard sax's OWN sources online, because even a book by a so called 'expert' can be filled with not a single bit of scientific od statistical or even USEFUL data except relegious and moral statements.

All you have to do is just look in the references page in the back of the book, and try to find some links to his 'evidence' online.

I will try to get time to buy the book, but the Least you can do is do the above and make it easily peer accessible... That's all I want, then, if the studies seem NPOV enough and don't come from a small town survey, then I won't complain.

The End.

Nateland 21:22, 20 January 2007 (UTC)

I looked at their websites, and found for the most part they advocate giving teens more information. My quick review of SIECUS and the Advocates for Youth websites didn't really seem to be saying that adolescent sex is a god thing. In fact, I found that SIECUS' official position is that "Adolescents should be encouraged to delay sexual behaviors until they are physically, cognitively, and emotionally ready for mature sexual relationships and their consequences. ..." I think these groups could be of more use to the sex education artilce. Judith Levine does advocate in favor of free sex for children and teens, so I kept her in. I don't have Dr. Sax's book anymore. I have returned it to the library. When I get back there I'll try to check it out again, but it was a featured book (thats how I came across it) and I imagine the wait list is still in effect. I would encourage you to go out and read the book yourself. You can then look up the sources yourself. --Illuminato 21:41, 20 January 2007 (UTC)

read my reply i just made, it's up next to your last reply.

The reply i made just before this one should lay everything out pretty much. And The advocates for youth ARE adovcates for allowing adolescents to have sex, they have PAGES saying how it's ok as long as condoms etc. are used, and SIECUS might be in favor of abistinence, but their link I kept in to support the KFF and Seventeen Magazine survey of the 510 kids aged 12-17, I couldn't find the original KFF source on their website or on google, so I used the SIECUS one as data to show that there is evidence CONTRARY to Leonard Sax's opinions that sex is just a casual hook up.

And that evidence simply told the percentages of teens that had responded WHY they had sex, the vast majority of which said they thought 'They had met the right person". Perfectly Acceptable to this article I think.

Besides, this is data STRAIGHT from the adolescents themselves, and i'm not quite sure if Leonard sax got his straight from teenagers by interviewing them or using a comparable method. It's simply study data which holds the views of adolescents themselves in an article all ABOUT adolescents.

Nateland 21:49, 20 January 2007 (UTC)

A full list of additions/fixes that could be made.

_________________________________________________ "Teens - and preteens - are too young to fathom the consequences, both physical and emotional, of their [sexual] behavior."[4] According to Lynn Ponton, a professor of psychiatry at the University of California, San Francisco and author of The Sex Lives of Teenagers, "early initiation into sexual behaviors [takes] a toll on teens' mental health. The result, she says, can be 'dependency on boyfriends and girlfriends, serious depression around breakups and cheating, [and a] lack of goals.'"[4] As adolescents are not mentally or emotionally prepared to handle feelings and emotions that come with sex, nor financially able to support children, "early sexual activity - whether in or out of a romantic relationship - does far more harm than good."[5]

A minority, including journalist Judith Levine, believes that sexual activity among adolescents and even children is natural and causes little to no harm if contraception is used. She believes that since humans are sexual beings that even the smallest children will most likely end up taking part in sex rehearsal play with other children out of their own explorations and that it causes no harm.[6]

_________________________________________________________-- Human sexual behavior generally and adolescent sexual behavior in most individuals is typically influenced, or heavily affected by norms from the culture in which the individual lives. Examples of such norms are prohibitions on sexual intercourse before marriage, against homosexual sexual activity, or other taboo activities, because the religion or culture to which the individual belongs forbids them. Sometimes individuals choose not to ascribe to culturally or religious imposed norms.

The text inside the dashed lines is a MAJOR thing i think we need to clean up ASAP. You see, that is a U.S centric gropu of opinions from both sides of a U.S. centric issue with U.S sources. If this article is on world adolescent sexuality (As I think it has been consensually declared as such)

Then I think we need to go along with my earlier post which you reverted and put that in a general United states section like i had on my edits before you reverted it.

THEN underneath we put in the 3 categories, experiences of adolescents during sex If applicable, (this might be a bit hard to gather data on as easily peer accessible sources for this subtopic, are scarce), motivations for engaging in sex can be explained in part by the KFF/Seventeen Magazine survey and by Leonard Sax's stuff (I'll not argue over the Saxion data, but i want to see some sources as you agreed you'd do), and then lastly, Frequency of sex among adoloscents, (I think that CDC and.or other VERY well known sources should be used for this.

Oh yes, and a subsection on contraception usage, I have the CDC data and can find some more, this again should be added to with easily accessible VERY well known sources (Preferably in internet form).

And the Britain section (Well, now it's not totally US centric because its got 2 countries, although we should try and add data from other ocuntries as well) The opening though should comprise of THIS, it seems nuetral enough and worldwide applicable.

Human sexual behavior generally and adolescent sexual behavior in most individuals is typically influenced, or heavily affected by norms from the culture in which the individual lives. Examples of such norms are prohibitions on sexual intercourse before marriage, against homosexual sexual activity, or other taboo activities, because the religion or culture to which the individual belongs forbids them. Sometimes individuals choose not to ascribe to culturally or religious imposed norms.

The above seems pretty good, then in the general adolescent sex in the united states section we can add in the dashed paragraphs, and if you don't mind i'll put in my brief summary of organizations (Or just the advocates for youth one) And perhaps we can try and format it so that the two major opposing viewpoints can be put into General info subsections like FOR and AGAINST in order to reduce the problem of inequal formatting that has occured in the past.

That should clear it up, and we can add in other countries as we go along. (OR make a stub-like general info on adolescent sexuality that has links to articles on adolescent sexuality in other countries.

And... I think that we should include how Adolescent sexual orientations can differ etc. etc. (So it's more than just statistical and represented viewpoint data), I once did thata couple of hours ago, but it got deleted. I hope that it can be kept inside.

Maybe then.. (Yes i know. this is a FULL summary of fixes and additions that i think should be made) We can add links to sexual fetishism LGBT homosexuality heterosexuality asexuality or whatever.

So what does everyone think of this proposal? —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Nateland (talk • contribs) 22:15, 20 January 2007 (UTC).

Nateland, having read Ponton's book, and reviews of Levine's, I don't agree that this text is US centric. They are making sweeping claims about the appropriateness and readiness of adolescents and children for sexual activities. Their claims do not simply focus on teens in the US. I agree that it probably won't be possible to find data on experiences of adolescents during sex. I do think the frequency that teens engage in sexual conduct would be a great addition to this article. More information on contraception usage and on how adolescents determine their sexual orientation would be most welcome if you can find it.

As others have said, this really doesn't lend itself to for and against sections. Most of the experts quoted in this section have a much more nuanced view than that and it would be a disservice to them and to the article to pigenhole them like that. Overall, these were some good sugestions, Nateland. --Illuminato 03:07, 21 January 2007 (UTC)

Why would there be sweeping claims in wikipedia anyway?, unless she has data and concrete evidence (Which I highly) doubt, to prove that this is true for All Adolescents WORLDWIDE. Then it's centric to SOME place!, and since she's from the United states, and seems to have US views, and used a Us publishing house i think that it would be quite reasonable to keep her views in the main united states section, and leonard saxs... he doesn't even claim that to be true for ALL adolescents, so he's DEFINATELY in the United States Section by my standards.

Hope this clears it up Nateland 05:46, 21 January 2007 (UTC)

Yes i know that....

The only thing is that with the high volume of views which can easily be construed as 'against' when compared to those that can be construed themselves as 'for' it is in my opinion a good idea to sort them out like that so that people can get both sides of the issue with ease.

I mean, the current article is a MESS if you don't mind me saying... (AT least father down in it), just one big jumble of words with everything mixed in, now i won't argue the 'trying to get more spotlgiht for your views' viewpoint.

But with it in such a jumble it's bound (In my opinion) to be Really really hard to read it through and get the sources etc....

I mean, we should at least sort the article out by who claims what. And I still think that the Advocates For Youth reference should be included to help equalize the article as i said before. You might not be obligated to give 'minority' views much sunlight, BUT as the FOR side makes up literally half (or a third counting the inbetween) due to the huge volume of people in this country whom have either a for, against, or inbetween viewpoint.

It DOES make up a significant portion of this article. Anyways, we cannot I repear Cannot have the ponton lynn etc. quotes at the START of an article on the worldwide views of Adolescence... i'm sorry if this goes against your views, I understand how you must feel right now.... but for a brief summary of worldwide views I SERIOUSLY think that keeping it to the first paragraph explaining possible cultural & relegious norms etc. is a good idea and that we relegate the Judith Levine, Leonard Sax, and Ponton Lynn opinions down to the section from the United states and seperate them into the 3 categories.

Also, a user had included a brief few words in the article about muslim views on adolescent sex that got deleted in your revert, check out his talk page, his username is Paul Foord, I gave him some suggestions for adding the brief mentions in it and I think that this might end up branching off into other articles....

But anyways, in summary here's what I plab to do NOW.

A. Add the AFY (Advocates for Youth) mention and description IN the main United states part.

B. relegate ALL paragraphs and citations WHICH are POV or come from the above mentioned authors and not a basic description of possible worldwide views of this subject to their respective country sections (Namely the United states section), and before you revert this illuminato, PLEASE discuss it here. We should wait AT LEAST a couple of days and get peoples consensus on the above proposal etc.

C. try and sort out the jumbled text and fix some refs i added early on in editing this article when it was still only a section of adolescence

And what I request be done in or at least SERIOUSLY discussed in the immediate future (within a week).

A. making sections for various authorities and so called experts on the subject OR making for and Against sections for the reasons i mentioned above.

U.S. centricity

Oh.. sorry i didn't read that part about it not being US centric... :-)

No, what i mean is that these authors etc. are MAINLY FROM the US, Reside in the US, and as far as I know... have United States views...

Basically, NOT a SINGLE source is cited from outside the United states, now I know that the odds of a knowledgable frenchie (What?, it sounds more interesting than frenchman or 'native' french person) coming across and suddenly filling this page with world wide views of the subject is.... Slim.

But, we CAN and I hope WILL eventually get some views of people from outside, but until then, I say put the current 'garbage' (Sorry, but it is basically garbage until it gets put in the correct section, namely. The United states section :-))

And even then... Even then!, we should have seperate sections and/or articles for each region.

I have a dozen shmozen klachigij-e-shillion ideas, bnut I'm going to bed soon, so i'll the above and be finished for the night.

Note to illuminato.

The title you used to replace one of the sections is not really clear, anyways...

You reverted the title section, although I repeatedly posted See talk page for details in Your talk page, the history, and the other editors talk pages.

This message will be placed in your talk page just so you know. And YES the opening IS U.S. centric.

PLEASE discuss it in talk, remember, not everyone agrees that a sweeping generalization about Adolescences worldwide IS valid, If someone edits it to fix it up, then leave it until the morning so people can discuss it.

I hate being dragged into edit wars...

Nateland 06:14, 21 January 2007 (UTC)

Nateland, There are three doctors quoted in the lead with four medical degrees. If they say something about the psychological health of adolescents I am going to believe them before I believe a kid without even a high school diploma. Just because they all live in the US does not mean they focus all their attention on the US. They do not qualify their remarks by saying "this only applies in America." I suggest you read WP:Lead. In addition to deleting this text, you also deleted two paragraphs of material by anon which all are sourced. Now I am going to revert it back to his/her revision as it contributed to article. As I have said many times, you really need to be more careful in your edits, Nateland. --Illuminato 06:27, 21 January 2007 (UTC)

Although remember, You yourself admitted they were sweeping generalizations, and as far as I know generalizations are NOT supposed to be in Wikipedia, and YOU might not believe ME over THEM, but that doesn't invalidate what I have stated again and again and again, No evidence has been brought up about HOW it applies to ALL adolescents WORLDWIDE.

And Ponton Lynn was the only to say it applied to ALL adolescents, it's simple logic, if there is a sweeping GLOBAL generalizxation on a highly controversial topic such as this, then it should have data to back it up, if not, it should be put in it's rleative section.

I see nothing wrong with putting the POV's in the start of the US section. I myself am willing to allow my Advocates for Youth and Judith Levine data to be put in the same place, BELOW Sax's, Anna's and Lynn's own 'evidence', now if i'm going to make allowances such as that.

Why can't you just allow it to stay that way for ONE DAY!. Until people can give their input etc.

And trust me, don't i repeat DON'T use my age against me, some people know more than others, and I believe what I believe, And I think that based on the above. Just the SUMMARY, That's what the start of an article should be!, A SUMMARY! (The rest comes later if you go by widely used article guidelines)

I think it's quite reasonable, and your ONLY support for keeping that in the top is because of a sweeping generalization made by one of FOUR doctors.

So be a mench, and don't just go about reverting etc. i think this issue should get some hearing time, (People HAVE complained about thsi in the past.. so it's not just me)

Nateland 06:37, 21 January 2007 (UTC)

[User:Illuminato, you state

"Nateland, There are three doctors quoted in the lead with four medical degrees. If they say something about the psychological health of adolescents I am going to believe them before I believe a kid without even a high school diploma. Just because they all live in the US does not mean they focus all their attention on the US. They do not qualify their remarks by saying "this only applies in America."

I asked earlier at Talk:Adolescent_sexuality#Ponton_book_-_research_of_a_global.2C_western_culture_or_US_specific_focus.3F about whether Ponton addressed a US or global situation. You responded that "She uses case studies from her work with San Fransisco teenagers to highlight larger points in the two books I have read from her. I think most of what she says relates not just to the US, but to all of the developed world.". This does not give me confidence about global applicabiliuty. I also asked if Talk:Adolescent_sexuality#Maybe_better_title_would_be_.22Adolescent_sexuality_in_the_United_States.22 . You have reverted my attempts to address this issue without any real discussion. Paul foord 07:13, 21 January 2007 (UTC)

Paul, I'm sorry I didn't see your comment on the name change. I guess I would say no to changing it, only because I think most of what is going to be written applies worldwide. I think Dr. Ponton's statement that all teens are either having sexual contact with someone else or fantasizing about it applies to 16 year old kids in Seattle as well as Shanghi.--Illuminato 07:30, 21 January 2007 (UTC)

I take that back...

Ok, so it should comprise the major viewpoints...

then feel free to edit my revision.

BUT PLEASE do not edit the part on the 'culture shift' as i reworded that to fit better with its potential implications.

And try to leave the HPV rewording alone if you don't put it into the STD article where i think it belongs as it seems less condescending and more towards the truth (A tiny switch can make all the differrence in readibility and accuracy)

And yes... if we keep the beggining as is. Then we'll need to shorten it down so that the reader can see ALL major viewpoints in a short amount enough of time so as not to be unduly influenced by an overdose of certain views.

Well, that's my proposal, i'll fix it ASAP. (Sorry, i didn't get the WP:Lead part, still am learning about the guidelines as i go along... although i know a fair amount of them)

Nateland 06:52, 21 January 2007 (UTC)

I take back my last post.

The current revision should be an acceptable compromise to you Illuminato, and since we're the only two people 'on' this article tonight I say we quit bickering and let it rest?

Agreed?

(I'm going to bed now, I'll place a copy of this in your talk page) And i read the guidelines for leads, but since there are so many potential (And i'm sure existing worldwide views) on this subject that we should simply put those in each respective countries section.

But I must point out, THERE IS NO debate like this about sexual activity between ANYONE over 18 (Even for homosexuals it's not as much as this). It's like the day you turn 18 BOOM!, most controversy and government intervention stops... --___-- seems a bit needless to me considering adolescents are normally sexually mature by the late teens or earlier and EVERYONE makea mistakes and learns from them.

Nateland 07:03, 21 January 2007 (UTC)

A proposal

In order to remove the protection currently imposed on the page, we are going to have to show an administrator that we can resolve our differences peacefully. It seems as if the lead is causing the most disagreement right now, so below I have proposed a new lead section. I have reviewed WP:Lead again, and point your attention to where it says "The lead section should briefly summarize the most important points covered in an article in such a way that it could stand on its own as a concise version of the article." Let me know what you think, and hopefully we can develop a consensus on what should be included. When that happens, we can request the protection be removed.

In an effort to give the article a more global focus, I have found more data on adolescent sexuality in India. The text I want to add can be found at User:Illuminato/india. I included that data in my proposed lead below. Please give me your thoughts.

Adolescent sexuality refers to sexual feelings, behavior and development in adolescents. All "teens have sexual lives, whether with others or through fantasies." Sexuality "is a vital aspect of teens' lives. ... The question is whether they are going to have healthy experiences, at any or every level of sexual activity." In developed countries, both boys and girls are now "entering puberty at least two years earlier than previous generations. This means they are ready for sex earlier physically, but not emotionally or cognitively."

Adolescents run many risks when engaging in sexual activities including sexually transmitted diseases, HIV/AIDS and emotional distress. In the United States, most sexually active teens use at least one form of contraception, but in India most do not. In the United States the number of teenagers who have had sexual intercourse has dropped, and in Britain most teens are waiting longer beore having intercourse for the first time. In India, the number of teenagers engaging in sexual activities is on the rise, but still far less than in Western countries.

When teens engage in sexual activities that are separate from emotional intimacy they develop habits which will cause them to have trouble forming adult relationships in the future. Legal issues, such as age of consent laws, the media, religious teachings and cultural norms also influence adolescents' decisions regarding sexual activities.

--Illuminato 00:58, 22 January 2007 (UTC)

In-dee-ah

Well, that's a Bare Bones start, But as I posted on your talk page.

my gripe is that the START of the lead is someones (edit: a group of peoples) own moral and/or scientific opinion on adolescent sexuality. But that opinion probably doesn't apply to whole globe a lot, or even most!!!. You see, the sentence that got relegated to the bottom pretty much layed out the stuff, and a summary of such a highly controversial subject (At least in the middle east, and North America and britain) is going to make it NEARLY IMPPOSIBLE to fit in a good summary without exclusivising it.

Which is what happened, so that's why I wanted the basic generic summary of how cultural norms etc. affect activites etc. etc. to stay in the lead, and a note saying issues specific to each country and/or region /relegion etc. etc. be placed in the lead so that people would KNOW where to find them.

It's just too specific and biased to keep it the way it is. The rest i can focus on later (Except if you don't mind i want to fix the survey from, 17 magazine and the KFF so that it says something more to what it could indicate, because saying a cultural shift is happening in that context is like saying Adolescents already DO practice unsafe sex habits, which is clearly biased by mine and i'm sure YOUR means. So i would restate it saying

However, earlier research done in 2000 by ___ & ___ could point to an already cultural norm not recognized by the mass media

(It IS quite obvious that in the MM adolescent sex is viewed with distaste 99.8761% of the time and that leonard sax and lynn ponton THEMSELVES are in the mass media. THEN we could maybe say after the NPOV part,

or it is indicative of a shift in sexual behaviour among adolescents from an existing culture norm. (See what i mean?, human language is VERY easily switchable as you know... and we could very very easily make it POV Like that statement is now)

Other then that... I'm ok with what's in their, a bit of reformatting is needed, and a subsection in the U.S., britain and other countries to be added should be placed inside detailing sexual diversity among adolescents (not just HOW they discover their orientations but saying that sexual orientations among adolescents is as diverse as that of adults (Which it is, as they're sexually mature if not emotionally as you so stubbornly put it :-)

Although liquid sexuality is ALWAYS a possibility (But let's not be nit picky ok?)

Cheers Nateland 01:36, 22 January 2007 (UTC)

Does the sex education article cover the topic better? Certaily has better global coverage. Paul foord 03:49, 22 January 2007 (UTC)

Ok, How is this? I have tried to incorporate some of your concerns, Nateland, and stay within the guidelines of WP:Lead.

Adolescent sexuality refers to sexual feelings, behavior and development in adolescents and is a stage of human sexuality. Sexuality "is a vital aspect of teens' lives" Sexual behavior for adolescents is influenced by cultural norms, the media and legal concerns such as age of consent laws.

Adolescents run many risks when engaging in sexual activities including sexually transmitted diseases, HIV/AIDS and emotional distress. In the United States, most sexually active teens use at least one form of contraception, but in India most do not. In the United States the number of teenagers who have had sexual intercourse has dropped, and in Britain most teens are waiting longer beore having intercourse for the first time. In India, the number of teenagers engaging in sexual activities is on the rise, but still far less than in Western countries. When teens engage in sexual activities that are separate from emotional intimacy they develop habits which will cause them to have trouble forming adult relationships in the future.

--04:46, 22 January 2007 (UTC)

Basically what've wanted for the lead all along.

My ideal and VERY NPOV summary is below. (With notes)

NOTE: For issues, and peoples opinions specific to each country and/or region please look below. For relegious views on sexuality and sexual behaviour please see relegion and sex (I can't remeber the exact name of the article but it's in here somewhere)

Human sexual behavior generally and adolescent sexual behavior in most individuals starts with puberty and is typically influenced, or heavily affected by norms from the culture in which the individual lives. Examples of such norms are prohibitions on sexual intercourse before marriage, against homosexual sexual activity, or other taboo activities such as pedophilia, because the religion or culture to which the individual belongs forbids them. Sometimes individuals choose not to ascribe to culturally or religious imposed norms or will protest against the norms. social movement

I think this is quite fair, and then below is the index and ALL the chaos can begin, and be sorted out.

Think it's good? Nateland 01:35, 22 January 2007 (UTC)

Nateland, take a look at WP:Lead. The lead section should be a summary of what is in the article. Pedophilia, religion and some of the things you talk about in your lead are not included at this time in the article. Also, the note you have there isn't part of WP's WP:Style. If people want to find out which individual countries are included they can look at the table of contents. I have tried to summarize the article in my proposed lead above. What do you think of it? --Illuminato 01:38, 22 January 2007 (UTC)

I'm a bit suspicious about those quotations in statements above. Who are they attributed to? ★MESSEDROCKER★ 01:48, 22 January 2007 (UTC)

Disregard the question, but still, I'm suspicious about the use of the quoted materials. ★MESSEDROCKER★ 01:49, 22 January 2007 (UTC)

As you seem to have discovered, they are from Lynn Ponton a medical doctor, psychiatrist and professor. Would you be more comfortable if it were paraphrased instead? --Illuminato 02:00, 22 January 2007 (UTC)

What do I think about it? Very little. Hardly anything was done to improve it... no offense but it's, like I said BARE BONES. It's only one countries info, and in case you don't realize, the sexuality section in adolescence has been suffering from BIAS for weeks now!, It's time we fix that as well, but enough of that, and onto my proposal.

I think that my proposed lead is quite good, and it seems you're just sticking and sticking and sticking to it, i don't NEED to know about WP:Style, WHAT we need their is WP:fairness and WP:global view...

Just re-read what i posted, the brief summary

Human sexual behavior generally and adolescent sexual behavior in most individuals is typically influenced, or heavily affected by norms from the culture in which the individual lives. Examples of such norms are prohibitions on sexual intercourse before marriage, against homosexual sexual activity, or other taboo activities, because the religion or culture to which the individual belongs forbids them. Sometimes individuals choose not to ascribe to culturally or religious imposed norms on their sexual activity and thus may start a social movement.

THIS is fine i think, what about you messedrocker?, and i only suggested a note because i'm guessing you want your data wayyyy up top!. Well, links to get it are there and like you said,

If they want the country specific info, they can just scroll down to the TOC, click on a country, and VOILA!, a (hopefully) ever-improving catalogue of accurate information and facts.

P.S. rocker, I second you like i have seconded many other people about Illuminato's 'facts' (Sorry but to me and others it is HIGHLY dubious), I think that they are biased, POV'd, and until someone can produce the book, and give LINKS to easily peer reviewable sources for Leonard Sax's claims they should be excluded from the article (Claims like that DO need the basic source of the evidence if there is any existing).

Call me extreme, but this is an EXTREMELY controversial subject, and ALL claims should be able to be easily verified for accuracy, validity, and usefullness.

Nateland 01:58, 22 January 2007 (UTC)

Nateland, the lead is not supposed to have bare bones, and it is not supposed to have structural notes. It is supposed to be a summary of what is in the article and right now there is nothing in the article about homosexuality or culture or social movements. It would not be appropriate to include it at this time. In the future perhaps, but not now. --Illuminato 02:04, 22 January 2007 (UTC)

Bare bones?, i'm not suggesting the lead be bare bones OH NO SIREE!. I'm saying that your proposed additions are a barebones start to improving the article, not to brag but when compared to the PAGES of proposals i've made (Look further up this discussion for my most recent proposal with list of fixes a etc. etc.)

And the opening is simply a NPOV summary of what adolescent sexuality IS, and a brief summary of what cultures think of it etc. and possible norms affecting it.

It mentions homosexuality as an example of cultural prohibitions on sex, if you go by that then we shouldn't include ANY mention of sex before marriage in a negative way OR positive because that not 'connected' to the article.

Explanations of sexual diversity are VERY USEFUL in my opinion in an article all ABOUT adolescent sexuality, due to most adolescents, unless you are lina medina discovering their own orientations etc.

And do you REALLY think that simply summary I proposed contributes to a 'structure'?, now i'm not saying that structure is BAD, but to go by your words and take them to their logical 'logicity' (so as to say), ONE or TWO paragraphs briefly explaining WHAT adolescent sexuality IS. NOT the views of it, this is about adolescent sexuality in itself, I think that over the edit wars we've lost that the Whole POINT of the article is to explain what adolescent sexuality IS.

NOT just the views, and If we include them, NOT to give them precedence over all the other topics and issues related to this.

Judith levine, Leonard Sax, and Lynn Ponton's views are not part of adolescent sexuality in itself.

It should be in a seperate article (And it would settle a LOT of these conflicts and allow for the progression of a MAIN informational article in itself).

I think that this branching off would also allow the various parts of a subject to be less subject to edit wars, and we can simply include linksd to the in dividual topics from the main page.

Waddaya say?

IS WHAT should be in the lead. Come to think of it, we should put all about adolescent sexuality in a seperate article, as its being in here is kind of derogatory to the advancement of the article.

THEN it would fit. Adolescent sexuality in itself is NOT, I state again NOT a debate, it is a PART OF LIFE!.