Talk:2018 Laos dam collapse

Event location?

The indicated location at 14-59-36N x 106-34-32E is unlikely. Google Earth shows that location is not in Attapeu Province, has no visible river, and has no roads or named communities. A more likely location is 14-46-35N x 106-26-21E, where Google Earth imagery of 1/29/2016 shows a major river, an apparent rapids/waterfall, roads on both banks, and disturbed ground suggestive of early dam construction. Downstream on the same unlabeled river is a community labeled Hinlat at 14-44-53N x 106-29-05E, similar to the reported village of Hinlad that was damaged. This note is OR and I don't know the area, so I add it here for others to confirm or correct. Justaxn (talk) 03:43, 25 July 2018 (UTC)

First of all we have to clarify whether we are talking about the location of the dam in question or the location of the flooding. The first location you gave is the approximate location of the main reservoir of the whole project, called the Xe-Pian Xe-Namnoy Hydroelectric Power Project. Since it is still under construction you won't find it on most satellite imagery, but the company who is building it has a map: http://www.pnpclaos.com/index.php/en/project/maps However, according to the information I have through media reports, not the main dam collapsed but a subsidiary dam, and this sent the water down the valley of the Xe Pian river and hit the Hinlad village (which is the third coordinate you provided) further down. The second coordinate however has nothing to do with it, it does not match any information we have, and what you call a disturbed ground is very common in Laos according to my experience as a mapper for OpenStreetMap. The only problem I see is that the river in question is called «Van Ngoa» on Google Maps, not «Xe Pian», but again according to my experience, names are a difficult thing in Laos and Google Maps is not very accurate in this region. The most reliable source in my eyes is the map in this BBC report: https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-asia-44935495 And there is also more detailed information in German here: https://de.wiki.x.io/wiki/Xe-Pian_Xe-Namnoy_Hydroelectric_Power_Project Martin Sauter (talk) 05:55, 25 July 2018 (UTC)

Looking at the BBC's map, the coordinates in the article do appear to match the location of the collapsed dam, which is in Champasak Province, however the flooded villages are in Attapeu Province. I would suggest moving the page to something like 2018 Laos dam collapse, and changing the wording to show the locations more accurately. --Danski454 (talk) 09:29, 25 July 2018 (UTC)

Location of breach

The coordinates that are currently in the article point to the Xe Nam Noy Dam. Initial news reports said that a saddle dam collapsed. Saddle dams for this project were built to retain water from flowing out of the back of the reservoir. So the current coordinates are probably incorrect. Abductive (reasoning) 00:26, 26 July 2018 (UTC)

I do not know where "saddle dam d" is, but the Xe Pian Xe Namnoy hydroelectic dam that filled in water against the saddle dam is clearly labeled (in Vietnamese) on wikimapia at exact coordinates 15.0034895N 106.5189743E 223.39.150.43 (talk) 09:21, 26 July 2018 (UTC)26 July 1819 Seoul

I was able to locate all three saddle dams on that particular hydroelectric construction project. They are exact GPS coordinates Saddle Dam 1: 15.007266, 106.564314, Saddle Dam 2: 14.991165, 106.562817, Saddle Dam 3: 14.964695, 106.544085 They match the shape and general area of the PDF file linked in this article. You can see them on Yandex satellite view pretty well. But another article refers to "saddle dam d". Which one is "D" if they are labeled 1,2,3??? 182.222.37.172 (talk) 12:35, 26 July 2018 (UTC) 27 July 2135 Seoul time

References

The official site "General Arrangement Drawing" is here: http://www.pnpclaos.com/index.php/en/project/maps As stated above, the map has saddle dams listed as 1, 2, & 3, , but no "D". Where did this "D' come from?

My conjecture is that the disaster response folks assigned some arbitrary designations: https://ec.europa.eu/jrc/sites/jrcsh/files/flooding_daily_map01.jpg As may be seen, "Saddle Dam D" is in fact, "Saddle Dam 1".

200.68.142.8 (talk) 00:30, 23 November 2019 (UTC) baden k.

Requested move 26 July 2018

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the move request was: page moved. Danski454 (talk) 18:58, 26 July 2018 (UTC)

---

Attapeu dam collapse → 2018 Laos dam collapse – The current title implies that the event occurred entirely in Attapeu Province, however discussion has found that the dam was located in Champasak Province and the villages that were flooded were in Attapeu province. Danski454 (talk) 07:51, 26 July 2018 (UTC)

• Support and quickly please. In ictu oculi (talk) 08:10, 26 July 2018 (UTC)
• Support as current event that is more popular by the name of the country itself.[1][2] Kraose (talk) 09:24, 26 July 2018 (UTC)
• Support per above. — Insertcleverphrasehere ^{(or here)} 10:52, 26 July 2018 (UTC)
• Support per above. Lugnuts ^{Fire Walk with Me} 13:17, 26 July 2018 (UTC)
• Support per above.Guyb123321 (talk) 13:52, 26 July 2018 (UTC)

I've dropped a note at WP:AN to help expedite this. Thanks. Lugnuts ^{Fire Walk with Me} 16:18, 26 July 2018 (UTC)

Done. --John (talk) 17:58, 26 July 2018 (UTC)

---

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page or in a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

Criticism note

I removed a editorializing note that stated that Laos' secrecy kept criticism of the dam from being heard inside the country. I read the cited article, but didn't see text there that directly supported that assertion, so I took it out. It wa way iiis reverted, so I'm going to the D of BRD now. Can other editors review the note and the cited ref and see what they think? Thanks. --SarekOfVulcan (talk) 15:44, 27 July 2018 (UTC)

The footnote made two points, so you certainly should not have removed both. In any case, "Laos has been described as "one of Asia’s poorest[12] and most secretive countries" is cited to Ellis-Paterson who says Communist Laos, one of Asia’s poorest and most secretive countries, is land-locked and aims to become the “battery of Asia” by selling power to its neighbours through a series of hydropower dams., and secondly, reiterating the notion of secrecy, is "the latter characteristic, it has been suggested, has ensured that none of this criticism has come from within Laos, only from outside it". This is cited to China News Asia, who state But fears over the environmental impact of the projects, which export most of their electricity to neighbouring Thailand and China, go virtually unvoiced inside the tightly controlled country. Whiiiiich is pretty comprehensive, and whilst I would not suggest the wording can never be improved, a basic review of the material would dismiss the charge of (so-called) "editorialising". —SerialNumber54129 ^{paranoia /cheap sh*t room} 17:00, 27 July 2018 (UTC)

Laos can be among poorest in Asia but there is no relevance. Kraose (talk) 08:36, 30 July 2018 (UTC)

Since a major criticism is that Laos is intending to export its newfound wealth, its poverty is clearly very relevant. —SerialNumber54129 ^{paranoia /cheap sh*t room} 08:57, 30 July 2018 (UTC)

How is Laos "intending to export its newfound wealth"? Don't you mix up the concepts of selling electricity and exporting wealth? Exporting wealth is the case when wealth is stuck up in foreign banks or kept by a few private individuals and invested abroad. This is very different from simply selling electricity. RhinoMind (talk) 15:42, 30 July 2018 (UTC)

Yes fair enough, but it's not a differential highlighted by the sources, which clearly are considering it a form of wealth creation that could be invested domestically.. —SerialNumber54129 ^{paranoia /cheap sh*t room} 15:46, 30 July 2018 (UTC)

Doesn't seem that those "sources" are very credible then? From what I know, Laos has no intention of NOT investing the surplus domestically. It is grabbed out of thin air. RhinoMind (talk) 16:01, 30 July 2018 (UTC)

If I should dare a qualified guess at interpreting what exactly the criticism is all about, it would be that electricity and electrical infrastructure might be scarce or even non-existing within Laos. But this is completely different than all that bollocks about wealth and "exporting wealth" and I don't know what. Completely different. RhinoMind (talk) 16:04, 30 July 2018 (UTC)

Quite. —SerialNumber54129 ^{paranoia /cheap sh*t room} 17:17, 30 July 2018 (UTC)

Dam Repaired, Reservoir Filled

Looking on Sentinel 2, the reservoir started to be filled around 2019-06-19, and appeared filled by 2019-10-22.

200.68.142.8 (talk) 04:08, 23 November 2019 (UTC) baden k.