Talk:2016 Tim Hortons Brier

Northern Ontario Flag

Where did the Northern Ontario flag icon come from? (specifically this image: ). As far as I know, there is no official flag for Northern Ontario, and the only location I can find the crest used in the image is on this page from the Northern Ontario Curling Association. The page has a clear copyright notice and thus the emblem and its use in the article would not be free. Compare this very similar image used on the Northern Ontario Curling Association page and is uploaded under a fair use (non-free) tag. Ravendrop 06:01, 9 March 2016 (UTC)

This is the flag used at the Brier. I can upload some photos if you want. I figured this would be low-res enough to be fair use. I'd really like to use some other flag for Northern Ontario. Any recommendations to getting around the copyright? I know for other sports there are special flags used for all of Ireland (Rugby and curling), the West Indies (Cricket) and Chinese Taipei. -- Earl Andrew - talk 16:00, 9 March 2016 (UTC)

I have no doubt that it is used, but that isn't simply enough to be able to use in the article. I do agree, however, that we could use a separation between Ontario and Northern Ontario. In the case of Ireland, the rugby union flag is from 1925, so it is no longer under copyright, while the cricket flag is of a simple design that can't be copyrighted (I'm not entirely sure of the legal reasoning behind this, but it has survived a deletion debate on commons Commons:Deletion requests/File:Cricket Ireland flag.svg) - also note that this is not the copyrighted rugby union flag (see Ireland national rugby union team). The one used for Irish curling is the Irish 4 provinces flag, which is a combination of flags used since the 1600s, so no copy right issues there. The West Indies cricket one was designed in 1927, so again is in the Public Domain. I'm not entirely sure of why the Chinese Taipei Olympic flag is not copyrighted (I think it may be the fact that it is a "trademark" and of simple design that it is not copyrightable - but that is just a guess).

As the emblem is a copyrighted image, it can't be used as "decoration." Fair use is only allowed when it is used directly for criticism or commentary (not applicable for scoresheets) or as identification on the Association page only. The only two ways I would see around the copyright are 1) If the copyright holder releases it into the public domain (which is unlikely); or 2) if you can determine exactly when the emblem was first used. Say you could find a picture of it from a Brier in the 1930s, it could possibly be out of copyright. (This would depend on who authored it and when they died; whether it was done by an employee of the association; and whether it had ever been "published" in the legal sense.). Ravendrop 04:22, 10 March 2016 (UTC)

What if we use a simplified, low resolution version of the flag? Maybe pixel-ate the logo? -- Earl Andrew - talk 04:32, 10 March 2016 (UTC)

My understanding is that unless there is direct criticism and/or commentary after each use, then fair use does not apply. So I don't think that would be acceptable in this instance. Ravendrop 02:39, 13 March 2016 (UTC)

What do you mean exactly? I was thinking of designing the flag so that it wouldn't show the logo exactly, just a bunch of colours. Surely that would be acceptable? -- Earl Andrew - talk 03:21, 13 March 2016 (UTC)

True. If the crest isn't there then there is no copyright issue. My point is that simply pixelating or using a low-resolution logo doesn't make it acceptable under fair use. (fair use, is very restrictive and prescriptive when it comes to acceptable use; plus Wikipedia is quite risk adverse as it is). Ravendrop 04:01, 13 March 2016 (UTC)

Alright, I will trying to re-design the flag so that it will be acceptable under fair use. -- Earl Andrew - talk 04:17, 13 March 2016 (UTC)