Talk:2014 pro-Russian unrest in Ukraine

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Fake map

The map used in the infobox says protests were in Dnipropetrovsk, Zaporizhia, Kherson and so on, while the article lists none of such. Why the map is there? ManyAreasExpert (talk) 22:10, 16 July 2024 (UTC)

The article does mention protests there, see 2014_pro-Russian_unrest_in_Ukraine#Pro-Russian_protests. Alaexis_¿question? 19:22, 11 August 2024 (UTC)

Let's see. The source for Mykolaiv [1] is gone. The reliability is out of the question.

The source for Dnipro [2] is gone.

The source for Zaporizzhya is reliable news source. But I'd like to strengthen my question: why the map used in the infobox shows protests, while the article is named "pro-Russian unrests"? Why there is no secondary overview source for the map? ManyAreasExpert (talk) 20:31, 11 August 2024 (UTC)

Source is not gone, you can find archive of old source page easily. Just because link is dead does not mean source is unreliable. See mykolaiv (https://web.archive.org/web/20140608104344/http://www.mukola.net/news.php?id=58741&arhiv=1) and dnipro (https://web.archive.org/web/20140312232154/http://www.ukrinform.ua/rus/news/v_dnepropetrovske_sostoyalis_dva_mitinga_za_i_protiv_novoy_vlasti_1608502). Article is called unrest because there because as map shows in some areas protests evolved into actual violence including due to influence of outside actors. maybe try to read article before removing valid map? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 120.74.38.109 (talk) 00:17, 12 August 2024 (UTC)

It's on you to prove the source is reliable. ManyAreasExpert (talk) 16:18, 15 August 2024 (UTC)

Ukrinform is an established outlet widely used by other RS and on Wikipedia. Also it's easy to find other sources for the pro-Russian protests, see this article by BBC Ukraine [3] В Донецке, Харькове, Николаеве и Запорожье в среду прошли пророссийские митинги, участники которых требовали федерализации Украины и проведения местных референдумов о статусе регионов. Alaexis_¿question? 21:34, 15 August 2024 (UTC)

Ukrinform is an established outlet widely used by other RS and on Wikipedia
Could be but the link above redirects to some casino. In the article titled pro-Russian unrest I'd prefer to see the map showing unrests. Showing the map with protests may create false impression to the reader. ManyAreasExpert (talk) 21:45, 15 August 2024 (UTC)

The above IP is me editing while logged out, before I decided to return to the encyclopaedia. To continue this discussion, the map does show 'unrest'. Protests are a form of unrest. See the definition of the word itself: 'A state of trouble, confusion and turbulence, especially in a political context; a time of riots, demonstrations and protests'. The whole purpose of the map is to show that the unrest displayed different gradients in different regions, which it did. I do not understand why you continue to remove it, which if anything is a disservice to the reader, denying an easy visual representation of what actually happened. RGloucester — ☎ 22:18, 15 August 2024 (UTC)

In that case we should return to the start of the topic. Where are RSs, preferably non-news, saying there were unrests in Dnipropetrovsk, Zaporizhia, Kherson and so on? ManyAreasExpert (talk) 22:34, 15 August 2024 (UTC)

The sources in the article are reliable, and Alaexis has replaced the substandard ones with RS. These are of course news sources, but news sources from reliable outlets are not unreliable. As for an academic source attesting to mere fact there were pro-Russian protests in the region at this time, here is one example I have on hand. If you require a more extensive bibliography, that will require some time. RGloucester — ☎ 09:53, 16 August 2024 (UTC)

I'm not against the map showing unrests, but there should not be the map showing protests to not to create a false impression.

Where are RSs, preferably non-news, saying there were unrests in Dnipropetrovsk, Zaporizhia, Kherson and so on? There are none, as there were no unrests there. ManyAreasExpert (talk) 11:14, 16 August 2024 (UTC)

I am very confused. The definition of 'unrest' was provided above; as you can see, it includes 'protests' in its scope. The map you removed specifies that 'protests' occurred in these regions, which is exactly what the sources cited in the article say...what exactly is the problem? RGloucester — ☎ 11:29, 16 August 2024 (UTC)

The definition of 'unrest' was provided above; as you can see, it includes 'protests' in its scope
This is WP:OR. See the whole thread for the problem. The map shows protests while the article subject is unrests, and there should not be such a map about protests in the infobox, the sources are weak news sources, the map is a compilation of these and is not based on secondary RS talking about unrests. ManyAreasExpert (talk) 11:36, 16 August 2024 (UTC)

The definition provided was linked from Wiktionary; it is not 'OR'. Feel free to check your preferred dictionary; the result will be the same. I am still very confused. RGloucester — ☎ 12:08, 16 August 2024 (UTC)

It is an original research when you need to employ a dictionary to reach a conclusion. And it is simply wrong. Protest and unrests are different. ManyAreasExpert (talk) 12:13, 16 August 2024 (UTC)

The problem is with the caption, not the map. The map correctly shows the regions in which there were only protests. Please don't remove the map if the problem is only with the caption.

I've replaced "unrest" with "disturbances" which is more general to address your concerns. Alternatively we can write "Map of Ukraine with regions occupied by Russia and having pro-Russian insurgency and protests". This would be rather long and unwieldy but would exactly correspond to the sources. Alaexis_¿question? 21:18, 16 August 2024 (UTC)

Why there is a map with "protests" in the lead of the article titled "unrest"? Are "disturbances" the same as protests? or unrests? Which secondary RS cover the map? Why there is such a map in the article infobox when there are no such RS? See how many questions the inclusion of such a map into the infobox raises. ManyAreasExpert (talk) 21:33, 16 August 2024 (UTC)

Well, the scope of the article quite clearly includes both protests and more violent forms of unrest. I think it makes sense since in many cases protests gradually turned more violent. Alaexis_¿question? 19:39, 20 August 2024 (UTC)

The map at "Pro-Russian protests" section is also wrong. It states, for example, 5,000+ pro-ru participants for Odesa while the source (not working now so not reliable) says "up to 5,000". ManyAreasExpert (talk) 13:26, 19 August 2024 (UTC)

That would be an easy fix. Also, if a web page is not available it doesn't mean that the source is unreliable. There is no policy that says so. Here's an archived link. Alaexis_¿question? 19:46, 20 August 2024 (UTC)

Note the main argument: The map at "Pro-Russian protests" section is also wrong. It states, for example, 5,000+ pro-ru participants for Odesa while the source (not working now so not reliable) says "up to 5,000".

It's those wishing to keep the source who need to prove it's reliable. ManyAreasExpert (talk) 19:58, 20 August 2024 (UTC)

Well, actually it's a mistake on part of Ukrainian Policy. They wrote "up to 5,000" linking an article by Odessa Media which says "более пяти тысяч одесситов," that is, more than 5,000. Alaexis_¿question? 20:02, 20 August 2024 (UTC)

So, do we have a reliable source on this.

Also, you returned the "unrests" map into the infobox without the justification. ManyAreasExpert (talk) 20:04, 20 August 2024 (UTC)

Let's see Zaporizhzhia oblast data. BBC На востоке и юге Украины началась новая волна митингов - BBC News Україна gives 100+ attendees, Korrespondent Сторонники федерации и русского языка в Запорожье вышли на марш - Korrespondent.net - up to 500 OR more than 5,000. Yet the map shamelessly paints 5,000+ to Zaporizhzhia.

You really should not be returning it [4] . ManyAreasExpert (talk) 20:42, 20 August 2024 (UTC)

Well, the article you've linked provides two estimates for the April 6 protests

свыше пяти тысяч жителей прошли от площади Ленина по проспекту, передает издание IPnews.

По другим данным, в марше участвовало не более 500 человек

So the map uses the higher number. We should either find additional sources or show it on the map that the estimates differ (e.g., by combining all <10,000, or by using striped fill).

The BBC article is about the protests in the beginning of March. Alaexis_¿question? 06:32, 21 August 2024 (UTC)

So is the map correct? Is it wrong? Захват органов власти на юго-востоке Украины: День кризиса: 6 апреля 2014 года российские спецслужбы атаковали органы власти на юго-востоке Украины | Цензор.НЕТ (censor.net) Приняло участие в демонстрации до тысячи человек. ManyAreasExpert (talk) 08:02, 21 August 2024 (UTC)

The map shows the biggest protest in each region. It seems like in Zaporozhye this happened in the beginning of April. I don't know which of the estimates for those protests (<500 or >5000) is correct, hence I suggested to stripe-paint it.

The map is always an approximation of the reality. This map is based on sources and is helpful to the reader. If we find new sources which contradict the existing ones we can and should fix the map. Alaexis_¿question? 19:30, 21 August 2024 (UTC)

This map is based on sources and is helpful to the reader
As shown above, the map is not representing sources correctly, and is based on unreliable sources. ManyAreasExpert (talk) 19:51, 21 August 2024 (UTC)

What sources does the map misrepresent (except for the Zaporozhye number, for which I've suggested a solution)?

Which sources are unreliable and why? Alaexis_¿question? 21:09, 21 August 2024 (UTC)

except for the Zaporozhye number, for which I've suggested a solution
Yes, this one. And there are no reliable sources for Odesa numbers. ManyAreasExpert (talk) 21:23, 21 August 2024 (UTC)

Now it's also wrong with Kharkiv. ManyAreasExpert (talk) 21:44, 21 August 2024 (UTC)

Why have you again removed the infobox map? The sources have been presented. I can understand if the protest map requires revision, though as of yet I am not convinced, but the infobox is clearly supported by the existing sources. What exactly are you contesting in this map? The mere fact that there were protests in these regions has been demonstrated time and time again. RGloucester — ☎ 22:03, 21 August 2024 (UTC)

See Talk:2014 pro-Russian unrest in Ukraine#c-Manyareasexpert-20240816213300-Alaexis-20240811192200 . Why there is a map with "protests" in the lead of the article titled "unrest"? Are "disturbances" the same as protests? or unrests? Which secondary RSs cover the map? Why there is such a map in the article infobox when there are no such RS?

No, the scope of "unrests" article does not include protests unless there are secondary RSs covering these. ManyAreasExpert (talk) 22:30, 21 August 2024 (UTC)

I do not know if you are a native speaker of English, but 'unrest' includes protests. The title of the article was decided by consensus many years ago and was specifically chosen to include different forms of 'unrest', because the gradient of unrest in each region was different. If you want to propose a new name for the article, go ahead. Secondary sources for the existence of 'protests' have been provided. RGloucester — ☎ 22:36, 21 August 2024 (UTC)

'unrest' includes protests
... but protests are not unrest. ManyAreasExpert (talk) 22:40, 21 August 2024 (UTC)

That is your OR, not supported by evidence. The previous consensus established in the 2014 when this article was renamed was that 'unrest' does include protests. Dictionaries agree, such as Collins. This is also WP:CONSISTENT with other Wikipedia articles, such as United States racial unrest (2020–present), an article that is primarily about 'protests'. RGloucester — ☎ 09:16, 22 August 2024 (UTC)

That is your OR, not supported by evidence
You disagree that protests and unrest are two different words with different meaning? I think we should stop here. Your thesis that "'unrest' includes protests" was addressed in a very message you are replying to. ManyAreasExpert (talk) 09:34, 22 August 2024 (UTC)

• For Kharkiv, the protest map does need to be updated given that 6 March 2014 protest had up 5,000 participants. RGloucester — ☎ 22:11, 21 August 2024 (UTC)

In fact, Platonova puts the maximum number of protesters in Kharkiv at 10,000 during March. RGloucester — ☎ 22:15, 21 August 2024 (UTC)

Changes required

Region	Now	Should be	Comments
Kharkiv	500+	10,000+	Per The Donbas Conflict in Ukraine: Elites, Protest, and Partition, p. 89
Zaporizhzhia	5,000+	<500/5,000+	Per Korrespondent which offers two estimates

Let's collect all the changes needed in one place and then amend the map. Alaexis_¿question? 06:49, 22 August 2024 (UTC)

What are reliable sources for Odesa numbers? ManyAreasExpert (talk) 09:35, 22 August 2024 (UTC)

This article by odessamedia.net. Alaexis_¿question? 18:22, 22 August 2024 (UTC)

We are not using propaganda. ManyAreasExpert (talk) 19:08, 22 August 2024 (UTC)

What makes you think it's propaganda? Alaexis_¿question? 19:30, 23 August 2024 (UTC)

The very title. ManyAreasExpert (talk) 20:11, 23 August 2024 (UTC)

Not sure I understand. Alaexis_¿question? 17:56, 24 August 2024 (UTC)

If there are better sources which report different numbers I'm happy to update the map. Alaexis_¿question? 18:26, 22 August 2024 (UTC)

@Flemmish Nietzsche, let's not use "ukrainianpolicy", as it was found to be unreliable.

Regarding your "peak attendance" comment [5] , the sources don't have to use the exact wording. The sources you added do not use that wording as well В Одессе пророссийские активисты напали на сторонников Евромайдана - Новости Одессы | Сегодня (segodnya.ua) . ManyAreasExpert (talk) 09:16, 23 August 2024 (UTC)

Also Guardian is incorrect quoting Interfax, as Interfax reports Тысячи одесситов под российскими и советскими флагами собрались в Одессе (interfax.ru) По оценкам организаторов митинга, собравшихся около 20 тысяч, по оценкам сотрудников милиции - около 5 тысяч. and we are not using organizers' claims. ManyAreasExpert (talk) 09:27, 23 August 2024 (UTC)

I'm not saying the sources have to use the exact wording, rather the sources for your claims of 700 and 100 attendees either did not state those numbers or stated higher numbers for other protests in Odesa; you also appear to be the only one saying that Ukrainian Policy is unreliable, and just because the website is offline now doesn't mean it was unreliable when it wasn't. We as well can use the maximalist claim of 25,000 if the minimalist claim of 500 is kept; both can be removed if we agree to use only 3,000–5,000 for the attendee amount. Flemmish Nietzsche (talk) 09:41, 23 August 2024 (UTC)

you also appear to be the only one saying that Ukrainian Policy is unreliable
Did others offered any proofs of its reliability, instead of claims? Try to assess it per WP:RS.

I added dates to attendee numbers, 500 - 1000 is the number for 3 March, 5,000 (no, not 25,000) is for 1 March. ManyAreasExpert (talk) 09:49, 23 August 2024 (UTC)

Dumskaya.net seems to be a reliable source. It's an established local media outlet cited more than 250 times in the Ukrainian Wikipedia.

Considering that the 25k number comes only from Interfax and even then it's attributed to the organisers, I don't we need to change anything here. Alaexis_¿question? 19:43, 23 August 2024 (UTC)

---

Considering that we haven't identified other inaccuracies, I've requested the Commons editors to change the colours. Alaexis_¿question? 17:56, 24 August 2024 (UTC)

Misleading image in the infobox

@Alaexis, why the image which raises so many questions have been inserted into the infobox again [6] ? Here are those questions, again: Why there is a map with "protests" in the lead of the article titled "unrest"? Are "disturbances" the same as protests? or unrests? Which secondary RSs cover the image? Why there is such a map in the article infobox when there are no such RS?

The image is also misleading by itself, as it has "2014 Pro-Russian Unrest" written on it as a title but it shows areas which had no unrests but protests. The image gives the reader a false impression that "unrests" were far more widespread, while unrests were only occurring in Donetsk, Luhansk, Mariupol, Kharkiv and Odesa. Including it is also the violation of WP:WEIGHT, therefore. ManyAreasExpert (talk) 17:30, 22 August 2024 (UTC)

Two editors told you that unrest includes protests. Unrest does not need to be violent. This is the definition from the Cambridge dictionary

UNREST disagreements or fighting between different groups of people. Alaexis_¿question? 18:21, 22 August 2024 (UTC)

This sentence has been answered and the answer is that while unrest may include protests, nevertheless protests are not unrests and should not be misunderstood as such. While the added image does exactly that: gives the false impression, substituting unrest with protests.

The thesis is also not supported by secondary reliable sources on article subject. Conclusions like the one above are either WP:OR or WP:SYNTH or both. ManyAreasExpert (talk) 19:06, 22 August 2024 (UTC)

I think at this point there is no longer any point in discussing this further. If you don't agree with the position of other editors regarding the scope and the name of the article, the best course of action would be to seek external feedback. Alaexis_¿question? 19:34, 23 August 2024 (UTC)

The scope of the article is defined by its title and by secondary RSs discussing article subject. ManyAreasExpert (talk) 20:12, 23 August 2024 (UTC)

Agree, the article should be renamed because it is an exaggeration Pusf.smbd (talk) 13:53, 23 September 2024 (UTC)

Disagree, the article is not placing undue attention on the response of Eastern Ukraine towards the Revolution Thehazardcat (talk) 21:52, 8 October 2024 (UTC)

Did not approve of the revolution

Some people in largely Russophone eastern and southern Ukraine, the traditional bases of support for Yanukovych and his Party of the Regions, did not approve of the revolution - I see Marples book talks not about "eastern and southern Ukraine" but about Donbas, Eastern Donbas. The chapter is "Prelude to War" The War in Ukraine’s Donbas - Google Books . ManyAreasExpert (talk) 20:38, 26 August 2024 (UTC)

Please note the proposal for a South-East Ukrainian Autonomous Republic by Yanukovych supporters during the Orange Revolution. 'Southeastern Ukraine' has traditionally been a common alternative name for this region...I expect it has less currency now given the current geopolitical situation, however. RGloucester — ☎ 22:19, 26 August 2024 (UTC)

We should not be engaging in original research. I'm asking why the article should state that, given that the source says Donbas. ManyAreasExpert (talk) 22:25, 26 August 2024 (UTC)

Marples is not the cited source for that passage... RGloucester — ☎ 22:30, 26 August 2024 (UTC)

The question raised still remains. ManyAreasExpert (talk) 22:35, 26 August 2024 (UTC)

If sources don't support the sentence, it should be replaced with the one supported by sources. ManyAreasExpert (talk) 21:42, 27 August 2024 (UTC)