Talk:1960 Cork Corporation election

Sums don't add up

The total poll is 22024 but the first-preferences add up to 22282. jnestorius^(talk) 03:29, 5 January 2020 (UTC)

OK, adding the John Moran source and cross-checking, I can make the figures add up by giving Anthony Barry 614 and J. McCarthy 98; except the FF total is 2 out, and Barry's increase of only 8 from SD Barrett's 648 surplus seems low. Need to review the numbers from the Cork Examiner 1 July p.12. jnestorius^(talk) 17:13, 5 January 2020 (UTC)

But now I see Moran's party totals add up to 22002, not 22024. Most likely the Examiner source we both used has a typo in one or two numbers. Oh well. jnestorius^(talk) 18:05, 5 January 2020 (UTC)

Right, it all adds up now. jnestorius^(talk) 17:12, 7 January 2020 (UTC)

Requested move 17 August 2023

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

The result of the move request was: moved. All listed are moved. While some uncertainty is present, it appears there is overall a general support for the moves as presented in accordance with COMMONNAME. (closed by non-admin page mover) EggRoll97 ^(talk) 02:14, 7 September 2023 (UTC)

---

• 1960 Cork City Council election → 1960 Cork Corporation election
• 1985 Cork City Council election → 1985 Cork Corporation election
• 1991 Cork City Council election → 1991 Cork Corporation election
• 1999 Cork City Council election → 1999 Cork Corporation election
• 1985 Dublin City Council election → 1985 Dublin Corporation election
• 1991 Dublin City Council election → 1991 Dublin Corporation election
• 1999 Dublin City Council election → 1999 Dublin Corporation election
• 1985 Galway City Council election → 1985 Galway Corporation election
• 1991 Galway City Council election → 1991 Galway Corporation election
• 1999 Galway City Council election → 1999 Galway Corporation election
• 1899 Limerick Municipal Council election → 1899 Limerick Corporation election
• 1920 Limerick City Council election → 1920 Limerick Corporation election
• 1985 Limerick City Council election → 1985 Limerick Corporation election
• 1991 Limerick City Council election → 1991 Limerick Corporation election
• 1999 Limerick City Council election → 1999 Limerick Corporation election
• 1920 Waterford Borough Council election → 1920 Waterford Corporation election
• 1985 Waterford City Council election → 1985 Waterford Corporation election
• 1991 Waterford City Council election → 1991 Waterford Corporation election
• 1999 Waterford City Council election → 1999 Waterford Corporation election

– Prior to 2002, under the Local Government (Ireland) Act 1898, the local authority of the county boroughs was a county borough corporation, whose elected assembly was a city council, just as the local authority of municipal boroughs was a borough corporation, whose elected assembly was a borough council. Therefore, it is not incorrect to describe these as city council elections. However, there's an inconsistency in the titles of articles, with articles for older elections generally titled with reference to the corporation, rather than the council:

• 1920 Cork Corporation election
• 1897 Belfast Corporation election
• 1914 Belfast Corporation election
• 1920 Belfast Corporation election
• 1955 Belfast Corporation election
• 1967 Belfast Corporation election
• 1899 Dublin Corporation election
• 1901 Dublin Corporation election
• 1902 Dublin Corporation election
• 1905 Dublin Corporation election
• 1908 Dublin Corporation election
• 1911 Dublin Corporation election
• 1914 Dublin Corporation election
• 1920 Dublin Corporation election
• 1919 Sligo Corporation election

In either case, there should be a consistent article title for these elections under the 1898 Act. Renaming in this way reflects the difference in local authority name effected by the 2001 Act, but if there's a consensus not to move these, then in the alternative we should move the other pages to be titled with reference to the city council (or borough council, in the case of 1919 Sligo). (jnestorius may have thoughts on this one). Iveagh Gardens (talk) 15:55, 17 August 2023 (UTC)— Relisting. —usernamekiran (talk) 21:43, 29 August 2023 (UTC)

I have no strong opinion. Consistency is nice. I would move them all to "~~ City Council election". (Well, 1919 Sligo Borough Council election, but OTOH 1920 Waterford City Council election and 1899 Limerick City Council election. "~~ municipal election" would have the virtue of one-size-fits-all but its not WP:COMMONNAME in these parts.) If we are to note historical changes in Irish municipal government, I think Municipal Corporations (Ireland) Act 1840 was slightly more significant than Local Government (Ireland) Act 1898 which was much more significant than Local Government Act 2001. In light of which, a change from 1999 Waterford Corporation election to 2004 Waterford City Council election seems pernickety. But, as I say, no strong feelings; one person's pernickety is another's fastidious. jnestorius^(talk) 18:26, 17 August 2023 (UTC)

Thanks for that, I don't have a strong opinion, except that there should be a consistent name for those under the same legislative basis. But there's also something neat about being able to name all those from 1899 similarly. I agree that the 1840 Act and 1898 Acts were much more significant changes. I thought to mention you in part because I saw you name in an entirely unrelated comment above here. I might refer this to the wider WT:IE for further comment, as this isn't necessarily one that will be picked up on otherwise. Iveagh Gardens (talk) 06:43, 18 August 2023 (UTC)

Just follow WP:NCELECT: "[date] [country name or adjectival form] [body/office] election", and respect the fact that in some cases there was a change in the name of the body.

Which gives us e.g.

• 1985 Dublin Corporation election
  • 2004 Dublin City Council election

No need to make Ireland an exception. BrownHairedGirl (talk) • (contribs) 23:40, 18 August 2023 (UTC)

Certainly so! Though the corporation having had a city council does give us flexibility as to what counts as the [body/office] field, so I'm somewhat on the margin of either side of this. Iveagh Gardens (talk) 09:01, 19 August 2023 (UTC)

@Iveagh Gardens: WP:COMMONNAME applies. The COMMONNAME was corporation. BrownHairedGirl (talk) • (contribs) 11:03, 19 August 2023 (UTC)

• Rename all, per WP:COMMONNAME. --BrownHairedGirl (talk) • (contribs) 14:14, 19 August 2023 (UTC)
• Rename. They were known as "the Corporation". Scolaire (talk) 17:05, 20 August 2023 (UTC)

  What they are known as is not necessarily what they were known as. The relevant time period for wp:commonname is today rather the time at which an event took place. I doubt it makes a difference here. jnestorius^(talk) 20:55, 20 August 2023 (UTC)

  @Jnestorius: surely the relevant time is when the election took place? That's what the reliable sources will use.

  By your logic, we'd rename 1899 Queen's County Council election to "1899 Laois County Council election", even tho it was not known as Laois. BrownHairedGirl (talk) • (contribs) 03:00, 21 August 2023 (UTC)

  Perhaps some misunderstanding. Imagine two academic articles discussing the 1899 election; one article published in 1905, the other in 2005. My contention is that, while both are RS for the body of the Wikipedia article, the latter is more persuasive for deciding the commonname. It's likely the 2005 article would refer to "Queen's County Council" or "Dublin Corporation" but I would still like to see the article to confirm that that is so. jnestorius^(talk) 10:44, 22 August 2023 (UTC)

  That makes sense as a principle! Wikipedia uses Byzantine Empire as the common name, even though sources during its time might have referred to it as the Roman Empire, or in some Western sources in later periods, as the Greek Empire. Iveagh Gardens (talk) 14:59, 22 August 2023 (UTC)

• Comment The Department of Environment reported them in 1985 as Cork County Borough Council etc., although as I don't think that was its common name at any of the relevant times, I wouldn't propose it. Iveagh Gardens (talk) 11:05, 22 August 2023 (UTC)

Note: WikiProject Elections and Referendums has been notified of this discussion. —Usernamekiran_(AWB) (talk) 21:43, 29 August 2023 (UTC)

Note: WikiProject Ireland has been notified of this discussion. —Usernamekiran_(AWB) (talk) 21:43, 29 August 2023 (UTC)

Note to closer I think there is a consensus here: BrownHairedGirl and Scolaire clearly in favour of the form of the name change (i.e., Corporation throughout), with myself and jnestorius supporting the principle of consistency, and neutral and open to consideration on the form, so I'd characterise it as perhaps weak support. Iveagh Gardens (talk) 10:17, 4 September 2023 (UTC)

• Rename all per the late BHG, and Scolaire. Spleodrach (talk) 09:53, 6 September 2023 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.