Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Scottish Islands/Archive 4

Top priority stubs

The following is a list of stubs, which are earmarked as top priority. Maybe some people could see to expanding/improving them. I have been working on expanding the shorter articles on the main Orkney islands.

• Argyll and Bute (no longer stub, but needs work)
• Bishop of Argyll and the Isles (Catholic)
• Castlebay (no longer stub)
• Diocese of Argyll
• Diocese of Argyll and the Isles (Episcopalian)
• Heart of Neolithic Orkney Prehistoric Orkney largely covers this
• Highland Land League
• Highlands and Islands
• Inchmurrin (no longer stub, but needs work)
• Jarlshof (no longer stub)
• List of Kings of the Isle of Man and the Isles
• List of the largest islands in Britain (vague title, see my comment)
• Mainland, Orkney (no longer stub)
• Mainland, Shetland
• Northern Constabulary
• Northern Isles
• Orkneyinga saga
• Sabhal Mòr Ostaig
• Sea of the Hebrides
• The Minch
• West Burra (no longer stub, but needs work)
• Westray (no longer stub)

--MacRusgail 17:24, 27 August 2007 (UTC)

Moving images to Wikimedia commons

If you see a free image which belongs on Wikimedia Commons, but don't want to move it yourself, just tag it with {{islandcopy}}. This will add to to a category, and someone else will move it for you. If you want to help move pages that have been tagged with this template, add Category:Scottish Island images for Wikimedia Commons to your watchlist. There already is a category for free images to be copied to commons, but there is quite a backlog. This will enable us to keep track of images relevant to our WikiProject without them getting lost in the crowd. Lurker (said · done) 15:14, 14 October 2007 (UTC)

You will find a few waiting for you now... all the best. --MacRusgail 18:06, 4 November 2007 (UTC)

Requested articles

Wikipedia:WikiProject Scottish Islands/Requested articles has been substantially expanded. Please feel free to put any relevant requests on there.

--MacRusgail (talk) 01:09, 18 January 2008 (UTC)

A very useful map

Crank this up to a high resolution. It may be inaccurate, and it may be difficult to read, but I'm sure it can be put to use!

--MacRusgail (talk) 00:27, 11 February 2008 (UTC)

2009 Collaborations

Good progress on Barra Head, so its time for Shetland again. Islands are by their nature formed by water but we have few decent articles on maritime geography. They might be hard to create, but spurred on by the new Sounds of Scotland, Yell Sound could be a candidate. Ben MacDui 20:04, 3 January 2009 (UTC)

I'm also fine with Arran although it needs a fair bit of work. Ben MacDui 12:46, 11 January 2009 (UTC)

Let's go with Yell Sound for what remains of January and then start on Arran in Feb. Ben MacDui 14:05, 18 January 2009 (UTC)

Coordinates for Western Isles articles

At Wikipedia:WikiProject Geographical coordinates, we are currently working on finishing geocoding several classes of articles where nearly all of the articles have now been geocoded. We would really appreciate any help you could give us with geocoding the articles in Category:Western Isles articles missing geocoordinate data. See this diff for an example of how to geocode an article: there's also a quick how-to guide at the top of the WikiProject's home page.

If you find the above interesting, the category Category:Orkney and Shetland articles missing geocoordinate data may also be of interest to you. -- The Anome (talk) 17:09, 9 February 2009 (UTC)

Holm of Hebristra

The article Holm of Hebristra has just been orphan tagged. Anyone know where it is - it claims to be in "Burra Firth" on the west side of the Mainland of Shetland? It's not on the main List and I can't see it on the OS, but it may have an alternative name. Ben MacDui 09:15, 17 February 2009 (UTC)

There are several Burra Firths/Burrafirths in Shetland. It is possible that it is confused. -MacRusgail (talk) 19:33, 17 February 2009 (UTC)

From the description it is the island just off West Burrafirth - pictured at [1] - but where does the name "Holm of Hebristra" come from? Ben MacDui 21:08, 17 February 2009 (UTC)

Eilean Horrisdale

As noted by H-Smith on p. 185 it is an islet off Badachro in Gair Loch (absurdly entitled Loch Gairloch) that had a population of 27 in 1841. He clearly states that it is "less than one third the area of Longa" (i.e. less than 42 ha) but it can't be far off 40. It does not appear to be tidal. I've added it to the "Smaller offshore islands" list. Ben MacDui 10:15, 17 February 2009 (UTC)

Template Skye

Template:Skye now available. In addition to the obvious navigation benefits it also identifies what I think are the main missing articles via the red links, and attempts to distinguish the main villages from the smaller crofting townships, and from the numerous tinies. (This is a little subjective of course.) Also useful in removing these tedious "orphan" tags that have started to appear. Ben MacDui 12:16, 21 February 2009 (UTC)

Gaelic help

When working on Dun Anlaimh i came across this loch on Coll Loch nan Cinneachan. Googling "Cinneachan" just turns up a few links to the loch. Does anyone know what it means in Gaelic? Googlebooks has one by E. Beveridge and he gives "heathen" and "gentiles". I was wondering if anyone had another reference or if anyone knows anything more. Thanks.--Celtus (talk) 10:40, 23 February 2009 (UTC)

• Click here. -an seems to be the plural. --MacRusgail (talk) 18:09, 23 February 2009 (UTC)

Yes, the nan marks a genitive plural, the an ending a plural. So, loch of the heathens. At least on the face of it. I can't tell if it masks an older name with a different meaning. Akerbeltz (talk) 19:06, 23 February 2009 (UTC)

A fine start to this new article btw. Template:Prehistoric Inner Hebrides can't be far off and if you put it up for a DYK we can see if this bot (below) works!. Ben MacDui 19:52, 23 February 2009 (UTC)

OK thanks guys. I'll keep that Gaelic link handy :D.--Celtus (talk) 06:34, 24 February 2009 (UTC)

Careful with the Stòr-dàta though, in Gaelic circles the SDV or SD Victim is a well known term - it's little less than a wordlist. Either use it in conjunction with Dwelly's or leave a message on my page - Gaelic grammar is very different from English grammar and often changes the shape of a word radically. Just to give you an example, the word "mac" can show up as mac, mhac, mic, mhic, 'ic. Akerbeltz (talk) 11:22, 24 February 2009 (UTC)

Another question. I'm working on another small article. The RCAHMS website calls it Stac Dhomnuill Chaim [2], another site gives Stac Dhomhnuill Chaim [3], but it shows up as Stac Dhomhnaill Chaim on the current Ordinance Survey maps (this spelling doesn't turn up any google hits though). What should the article be titled? Also the site is near Mangursta / Mangersta, which shows up on the OS map in Gaelic Mangurstadh. Which version should be used on wikipedia?--Celtus (talk) 09:08, 28 February 2009 (UTC)

Stac Dhomnuill Chaim is a typo. It must be Stac Dhomhnuill Chaim although - if you want to follow the modern way of spelling it it ought to be Stac Dhòmhnaill Chaim. OS is slowly working its way through their misspellings so I guess you might as well go with what it will be when they get round to it and use redirects from the older spellings? The Mangersta problem falls into the same category. Mangursta / Mangersta are English spellings, Mangurstadh the Gaelic (outdated) spelling. Today you'd write it Mangarstadh. As for Wiki policy on spelling issues, I'm really not sure. I have a feeling though that you'd be safer from getting edited/moved if you stick with the Gaelic forms currently on the map (Mangurstadh, Stac Dhomhnuill Chaim). Maybe someone else can chip in on the policy issue? Akerbeltz (talk) 12:23, 28 February 2009 (UTC)

The policy is fairly straightforward. WP:NAME states: "Generally, article naming should prefer what the greatest number of English speakers would most easily recognize, with a reasonable minimum of ambiguity, while at the same time making linking to those articles easy and second nature.

This is justified by the following principle: The names of Wikipedia articles should be optimized for readers over editors, and for a general audience over specialists.

Wikipedia determines the recognizability of a name by seeing what verifiable reliable sources in English call the subject."

In practice, these names are not likely to be known to anyone except local people and specialists in the field so the "readers over editors" issue does not loom very large. On the other, we also need to take care as the Wikipedia article itself may well become the most commonly used name on the internet, thus becoming a self-fulfilling prophecy. I cannot speak knowledgeably on Gaelic spellings. Of the two sources, RCAHMS would be preferred, but if they have included a blatant typo then Stac Dhomhnuill Chaim is probably preferred as linguistically accurate and verifiable. I'd be reluctant to predict an OS change in advance of it occurring. If that happens the page name can always be changed.

"Mangersta" is slightly trickier I think. If this word is just going to be used in the article as opposed to being part of the title, it doesn't matter so much. RCAHMS offers both English names as variants. Within the article "Mangursta (Scottish Gaelic: Mangarstadh)" or "Mangursta (or Mangersta, Scottish Gaelic: Mangarstadh)" would be fine I think. Ben MacDui 12:57, 28 February 2009 (UTC)

PS the above template is a long way off. I saw "crannog" and assumed a prehistoric site, which it may not be. As far as I can see there is only one Inner Hebrides article specifically about a prehistoric location - Dun Ringill. Amazing, given that here are more than dozen in the Outer Hebrides. Ben MacDui 13:01, 28 February 2009 (UTC)

Hang on I just checked where we are ;) Streetmap uses the Gaelic spelling Mangurstadh and given that the Hebrides officially switched to the Gaelic names many years ago, I think Mangurstadh ought to be preferred. Akerbeltz (talk) 13:06, 28 February 2009 (UTC)

Oh i just checked http://www.ordnancesurvey.co.uk/oswebsite/ and it appears as Mhangarstadh :p.--Celtus (talk) 05:50, 1 March 2009 (UTC)

Careful, Mhagarstadh is a genitive, probably Beinn/Loch/etc Mhagarstadh so your quotation form must be Mangarstadh! Akerbeltz (talk) 12:11, 1 March 2009 (UTC)

You know, sometimes I think you just make this stuff up :) Ben MacDui 13:39, 1 March 2009 (UTC) (Also spelled Ben Macdhui, Ben MacDui, Beinn Mac Duibh etc.)

LOL well, yes, from an English/Scots POV Gaelic morphology is rather bizarre. Just be happy it's not Old Irish we're dealing with! Akerbeltz (talk) 14:02, 1 March 2009 (UTC)

Auto alerts

This cunning new wheeze is described at Wikipedia:Article alerts/Subscribing. Essentially a bot will deliver updates on all articles with a WPSI banner that are up for deletion, DYK, assessments and reviews etc. When its operational it would probably make sense to watch the sub-page it creates for changes rather than the main page. It will probably be fairly quiet, but hopefully useful. Ben MacDui 19:39, 23 February 2009 (UTC)

It works - see Wikipedia:WikiProject Scottish Islands#News and watch Wikipedia:WikiProject Scottish Islands/Article alerts. Bonjour François. Ben MacDui 20:15, 25 February 2009 (UTC)

Coordinators' working group

Hi! I'd like to draw your attention to the new WikiProject coordinators' working group, an effort to bring both official and unofficial WikiProject coordinators together so that the projects can more easily develop consensus and collaborate. This group has been created after discussion regarding possible changes to the A-Class review system, and that may be one of the first things discussed by interested coordinators.

All designated project coordinators are invited to join this working group. If your project hasn't formally designated any editors as coordinators, but you are someone who regularly deals with coordination tasks in the project, please feel free to join as well. — Delievered by §hepBot (Disable) on behalf of the WikiProject coordinators' working group at 06:30, 28 February 2009 (UTC)

Article alerts

This is a notice to let you know about Article alerts, a fully-automated subscription-based news delivery system designed to notify WikiProjects and Taskforces when articles are entering Articles for deletion, Requests for comment, Peer review and other workflows (full list). The reports are updated on a daily basis, and provide brief summaries of what happened, with relevant links to discussion or results when possible. A certain degree of customization is available; WikiProjects and Taskforces can choose which workflows to include, have individual reports generated for each workflow, have deletion discussion transcluded on the reports, and so on. An example of a customized report can be found here.

If you are already subscribed to Article Alerts, it is now easier to report bugs and request new features. We are also in the process of implementing a "news system", which would let projects know about ongoing discussions on a wikipedia-wide level, and other things of interest. The developers also note that some subscribing WikiProjects and Taskforces use the display=none parameter, but forget to give a link to their alert page. Your alert page should be located at "Wikipedia:PROJECT-OR-TASKFORCE-HOMEPAGE/Article alerts". Questions and feedback should be left at Wikipedia talk:Article alerts.

Message sent by User:Addbot to all active wiki projects per request, Comments on the message and bot are welcome here.

Thanks. — Headbomb {^ταλκ_{κοντριβς} – WP Physics} 09:39, 15 March, 2009 (UTC)

British Isles rename?

British Isles has been requested to be renamed to something else at WP:RM, see Talk:British Isles. 76.66.193.69 (talk) 04:39, 1 April 2009 (UTC)

Up Helly Aa?

Page moves don't seem to appear on Watch Lists, so in case it's of interest I point out that this page has been moved from Up Helly-Aa by an editor who claims it was "wrong spelling". Looking at the article, the hyphen seems very well established, but I leave to it experts to sort it out if need be (as a Sassenach I'd hesitate to meddle!). I spotted this while looking at the editor's contributions after finding several copyvio problems. PamD (talk) 18:57, 1 April 2009 (UTC)

Do editors' priorities match readers' priorities?

I knocked up this tool for the Clans project, but I thought you lot might appreciate it as well - I've ordered all the WPSI articles by readership stats over at Wikipedia:WikiProject_Scottish_Islands/Stats side-by-side with their assessments for Importance. I don't plan to do this on a regular basis, it's a one-off thing and I leave you to deal with the implications, but I thought it might be of interest. Not least because the second most popular article with nearly 40,000 hits/month has Low priority, whilst one of the Top articles averages only 2-3 hits per day. I know that sheer popularity isn't the whole story, but editors wanting to get the most "bang for their buck" with their editing time might want to bear it in mind..... Le Deluge (talk) 02:35, 28 April 2009 (UTC)

Priorities are all pretty subjective anyway. Some articles have top priority because they are "umbrella" topics.--86.162.75.206 (talk) 15:47, 28 April 2009 (UTC)

Sure - but the stats give a bit of objectivity to avoid WP:UNDUE weight on an article when working out what needs doing - overly-prioritised articles discourage work elsewhere. I've talked about this more over at the assessment talk page, but in general I'd suggest that "umbrella-ness" should only boost priority by one level over where the stats say it "should" be.Le Deluge (talk) 11:48, 4 May 2009 (UTC)

Finnan island

Alasdair MacMhaighstir Alasdair makes repeated references to an island or islands of this name with various Gaelic spellings, at least one of which seems to have been populated. I have dropped a note to the talk page in the hope that someone may know of its whereabouts. Ben MacDui 14:58, 20 June 2009 (UTC)

Can you give some refs to check this out please? Sorry I haven't been round here much, I have been creating hundreds of rugby articles.--MacRusgail (talk) 15:25, 20 June 2009 (UTC)

There are various ones provided both in the reference for the article and referred to in the text, but I don't have any of them I'm afraid. There are a few google hits that might say something. Ben MacDui 15:42, 20 June 2009 (UTC)

Merge East Burra and West Burra with main Burra article

See Talk:Burra. Ben MacDui 08:17, 22 June 2009 (UTC)

Orkney in Gaelic

The current text reads "The old Gaelic name for the islands was Insi Orc which means the "Island of the Orcs" ("Arcaibh" in modern Scottish Gaelic)." This seems a little unlikely and input from a Gaelic-speaker would be helpful. Ben MacDui 12:14, 27 June 2009 (UTC)

I have the source - its just rather clumsy English taken from Orkneyjar Will fix later. Ben MacDui 12:26, 27 June 2009 (UTC)

No, that's correct actually. Orc as in swine as in Harbour Porpoise. A lot os the place names up there are based on a variation of orc (àrc), there's An Caol Àrcach (the Sound of Orkney), Àrcach (an Orcadian). Normally Orkney is Àrcaibh but the other form does appear now and then, usually in the modern spelling Innse Orc but there's an old attestation in the Leabhar Oiris of Innse h-Orc (check [4]). Might want rewording though, it does read a bit funny. Akerbeltz (talk) 12:36, 27 June 2009 (UTC)

So, assuming Gaelic "orc" = swine or Harbour Porpoise, then the wording above would be "Insi Orc which means the "island of the pigs (or porpoises)" ", as opposed to "Insi Orc which means the "Island of the Orcs"- amusing tho' the latter idea is. Ben MacDui 14:07, 27 June 2009 (UTC)

Yes. Orc has a somewhat confusing array of meanings but the most salient ones are pig or sea-pig (= harbour porpoise, cf German Schweinswal), also backed up by modern Gaelic muc-mhara (sea-pig) for whale. To be honest, I'm not sure what the meaning of English orc was in the days before Tolkien but yes, "Islands (insi is a plural) of the (Sea-)Pigs" is a better way of putting it. Mind, I've never seen the maternity ward in Kirkwall, maybe they *are* hacked from the soil? ;) Akerbeltz (talk) 14:32, 27 June 2009 (UTC)

It could actually refer to whales, rather than swine, the words allegedly being the same in Old Celtic (c/f modern muc-mhara). Additionally, in Latin (which is closer to Celtic than most realise), Orcus is somekind of underworld deity. Always thought that it should be translated "Islands of the Hogs" rather than "Pigs", because of cultural connotations (c/f "Hound of Culann" to "Dog of Culann"). Deacon of Pndapetzim (Talk) 22:45, 27 June 2009 (UTC)

Just looked up uircean (a derivative) because orc isn't in the Gaelic etymological dictionary. This derived it from IE porkos, which led me to check it in Pokorny. He says:

Root / lemma: porkô-s English meaning: pig German meaning: `Schwein' ('neugeborenes Tier, Ferkel') Derivatives: porkêli̯o- `Ferkel' Material: Sakisch pāsa (*parsa), kurd. purs, entlehnt finn. porsas, mordw. puŕts `Schwein'; lat. porcus `das zahme Schwein', umbr. porca, purca `porcās'; mir. orc m. `Ferkel, junges Tier', abrit. Orcades (mit gr. Endung) = mir. Innsi Orc `Orkney-Inseln'; ahd. far(a)h n. , ags. fearh m. n. `Schwein', (dän. fare `Ferkel werfen'); lit. par̃šas `männliches verschnittenes Schwein', apr. prastian `Ferkel' (*parsistian); abg. prasę, -ęte `Schwein, Ferkel' (deminut. nt-Suff. ); zu lat. porcīnus `vom Schwein' vgl. lit. paršienà `Ferkelfleisch', zu lat. porculus `Schweinchen' das lit. paršẽlis `Ferkel', ahd. farheli, mhd. varchelīn, nhd. Ferkel. References: WP. II 78, WH. II 341, Trautmann 207, Benveniste BSL. 45, 74 ff. ; nach Specht Idg. Dekl. 34 zu perk^- `aufreißen' (S. 821). Page(s): 841

So given the age of the name, it does seem to point to Hogs/Pigs rather than whales. On the bright side, you have another ref for Innsi Orc! Akerbeltz (talk) 23:26, 27 June 2009 (UTC)

Well, I'd have presumed the assumption was that the word was extended to whales once a word was needed, because whales and dolphins look like pigs and might not have been encountered so often in IE homeland (but would in northern Scotland). It wasn't always the case, but Orkney is almost treeless and so couldn't have been much of a place for pigs. On the other hand, it's probably a people name (islands of the hog-people), and if Innse Chait ("Islands of the Cat [people]", i.e. Shetland) shows anything, it's that the name might have been extended from a mainland people to the islands (in this case perhaps by the Norse). Deacon of Pndapetzim (Talk) 01:04, 28 June 2009 (UTC)

I broadly agree. It's just hard to tell that at the time of the name-giving if the Orc referred to 1) hogs/pigs as the root word implies 2) whales as the modern derivation implies or 3) another friendly extension of either used to denote some foreign, barbarous tribe.

It's interesting though that (and this is solely based on the continuous quoting of the Orkneyinga Saga as a source) that the Norse adopted the term either way. Is the derivation of the -ney bit known? Any interpretations of the name within Norse? Because unflattering names are not too comnonly adopted (Gàidheal being a notable exception). Akerbeltz (talk) 01:16, 28 June 2009 (UTC)

-eyjar means "islands", and I'm assuming the n is either just a helping consonant or something to do with Norse grammar (like the r in Suðreyjar). The Norse have translated it. They did the same with Shetland; Innse Chait, Chaitland, Hjaltland, Zetland, Shetland. Deacon of Pndapetzim (Talk) 02:48, 28 June 2009 (UTC)

According to Orkneyjar (sigh) orkn is is Old Norse for "seal". Also, the original root is assumed to be Pictish, although it's not clear on what evidence (anyone a Welsh speaker?). As it is a presumed tribal name, there would indeed be no need for the totemic animal to be abundant. There are after all relatively few lions in the UK, or bears in Chicago. Ben MacDui 09:28, 28 June 2009 (UTC)

I guess on the assumption that Pictish was widespread prior to Gaelicisation and that we know buggerall about the people who came before. At least about what they spoke.

The most likely contender for Pictish (reading Pictish ~ Old Welsh) is IE *tworko "boar" with OIrish torc and MWelsh twrch. All meaning boar/young pig. The change torc > orc would be very easy in Irish/Gaelic as initial t- was often confused as being part of the definite article, an torc ~ an t-orc (not attested afaik). As both the *porkôs and *tworko root go way back in Brythonic and Goidelic, it's hard to argue for either but in a way it makes life easier cause we can avoid OR.

I don't know how reliable Orkneyjar is as a source. Mayhap it would be best to state that the Goidelic name(s) Innsi Orc (modern Innse Orc) contains innse "islands" and orc "pig/hog/boar" (or an extended meaning thereof such as whale or seal). I don't think we can say much more based on the current sources we have. Incidentally, a search for "pig bones orkney" throws up quite a number of archeological sites that contain pig bones, so it's not impossible that it actually refers to pig-keeping. Akerbeltz (talk) 10:57, 28 June 2009 (UTC)

Ben, the name was already in use in the 4th century bc, so clearly isn't Norse, and predates any separation (assuming there ever was one) between Pictish, British and Gaelic. @ Akerbeltz, I think if you had to weigh it, a forestless group of islands inhabited by fishermen is more likely to be named after whales than pigs, esp. as the former is more charismatic, but that's just my opinion and we can never know I guess. Deacon of Pndapetzim (Talk) 19:23, 28 June 2009 (UTC)

PS, this website Orkneyjar is an ureliable, highly tendentious site; there's a possibility that it is operated by a user who used to sock on wikipedia as an Orcadian "nationalist". Deacon of Pndapetzim (Talk) 19:28, 28 June 2009 (UTC)

I agree that the liklihood of pigs being present must be borne in mind but I recall a study I once read about the now totall barren Aran Islands which apparently were forested once. And if cultivated by humans, pigs reach the most bizarre places, such as the entire South Pacific. Perhaps they were never home to wild pigs, but surely pig keeping is and was in the realms of possibility. I just feel it's not our call to make and we should say it could be either until we unearth something new? Akerbeltz (talk) 20:20, 28 June 2009 (UTC)

Gah, I need glasses, you said exactly that yourself, so scrap my last comment. Sorry. Akerbeltz (talk) 21:24, 28 June 2009 (UTC)

No-one is saying the original name is Norse. The statement cited by Orkneyjar, whose shortcomings I am aware of is that "When Norwegian Vikings arrived on the islands they interpreted "orc" as orkn which is Old Norse for seal and added the suffix ey meaning "island"." Orkney is almost treeless now but it has been thickly forested in the past - certainly in the Mesolithic and more so than now in the Neolithic. There was climatic downturn during the Bronze Age when tree cover was much reduced, but I don't have much info on later tree cover. Orkney is fertile, and the Orcadians are not now, and probably were not in the past, primarily fishermen. The standard phrase about the modern era is that Orcadians are farmers with boats, as opposed to Shetlanders, who are fishermen with crofts. Ben MacDui 08:17, 29 June 2009 (UTC)

Re Akerb's comment above: "On the bright side, you have another ref for Innsi Orc!" Sadly, some us speak only one or two languages. If you could give me the ref in the common tongue I'd gladly use it. Ben MacDui 18:26, 3 July 2009 (UTC)

LOL mir. orc m. `Ferkel, junges Tier', abrit. Orcades (mit gr. Endung) = mir. Innsi Orc `Orkney-Inseln translates as "Middle Irish. orc (masculine noun). `piglet, young animal', Old Brythonic Orcades (with Greek ending) = Middle Irish Innsi Orc `Orkney Islands". The source is the online version of Pokorny's IE dictionary ([5]). I trust that was the ref you mean? Akerbeltz (talk) 18:59, 3 July 2009 (UTC)

Thanks - I assume so - it's all Greek to me. Ben MacDui 07:50, 4 July 2009 (UTC)

Category:Islands in the Shetland Islands

"This category is being considered for renaming to Category:Islands of Shetland." ... or at least it will be when I can figure out the cumbersome listing process involved. I do wonder if it might not have been better to just move it and have the questions come later.... See something like Wikipedia:Categories for discussion/Log/2009 July 12. Ben MacDui 12:43, 12 July 2009 (UTC)

Glendale, Skye

Another minor etymological scuffle which could with some Gaelic/Norse input at Glendale, Skye. 21:18, 14 July 2009 (UTC)

Clean up

I notice at User:WolterBot/Cleanup statistics that WPSI has the lowest clean-up problem of any of the Scottish projects listed. Given that a big %age of ours listed are articles missing geocoord data (hardly a hanging offence), it's wiki-bubbly all round. Good work. Ben MacDui 10:23, 19 July 2009 (UTC)

Now down to 17.1% from 25.3%.

Collaboration - August 09

I have boldly suggested List of Outer Hebrides for August. A draft is currently in a sandbox of mine and you're all welcome to pitch in. Please note that at present big chunks of it are copies of the Orkney list, which need to be replaced.

If this seems to lack drama, you may be interested to note that Akerbeltz has recently invaded the Middle East. Ben MacDui 16:45, 1 August 2009 (UTC)

Ak. has now mounted a pincer move involving the Arran dab page at Talk:Arran#Requested move. Ben MacDui 08:25, 2 August 2009 (UTC)

New system and September

The various archives were getting scattered about and I have created a new project page at Wikipedia:WikiProject Scottish Islands/Collaboration which lists a suggested method of making proposals, simple instructions as to what do when a new one commences and archives a list of older collaborations.

Previous discussion is archived together at Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Scottish Islands/Collaboration Archive.

The talk page at Scottish Islands/Collaboration just redirects here so that discussion is more visible to all.

The idea is that anyone can make a suggestion by adding the article name to a particular month as listed at the above mentioned new Collaboration of the month page (also available via the project template). Please feel free to do so. If there is a need for discussion (e.g there is more than one proposal) it can happen here. If there is only one proposal it can simply be listed on the main project page at the beginning of the month.

I have listed Orkney, which should be able to make GA, as a suggestion for September. Ben MacDui 12:55, 18 August 2009 (UTC)

The news system is extremely effective in that it puts all the info in one place - but clearly no-one is paying much attention to this little by-way, so I thought I'd bring the discussion re choosing back here. I suggest Rona for December. Ben MacDui 19:31, 4 December 2009 (UTC)

Lots of very good new refs, but not the most comprehensive collaboration. I have been very distracted of late but I'd like to have a go at improving Outer Hebrides in Feb if time permits. Other suggestions are welcome. Ben MacDui 15:16, 6 February 2010 (UTC)

Surely not another inhabited island...

Unusually for an uninhabited island, Eilean na Cille (grid reference NF847459) is connected to Grimsay (south) by a causeway. The OS map shows a building on it. I am not sure that Geograph here and here adds anything. Ben MacDui 07:43, 6 August 2009 (UTC)

There's a public slipway at the far southern end of the island, is that what you're seeing? Akerbeltz (talk) 10:45, 6 August 2009 (UTC)

Be aware that the OS occasionally marks huts and bothies etc, as well as empty houses. --MacRusgail (talk) 14:00, 6 August 2009 (UTC)

See Gazetteer for an explanation. Finavon (talk) 20:44, 6 August 2009 (UTC)

At 1:50,000 on the OS a building is marked by the side of the road, although I don't think it is likely it is lived in. Ben MacDui 17:12, 7 August 2009 (UTC)

Grim

Back in March 07 (see Talk Archive 1), when we were attempting to sort of the Benbecula Grimsays I noticed that there was "a tidal island just north of Griomasaigh with a small settlement called Seana Bhaile and which may be called 'Fraoch-eilean'." grid reference NF860580). Smugly, at the time I sorted the Grimsays out and moved on. I estimate it at 30 ha in size and it definitely looks inhabited to me.

Questions:

1 Do we agree it is inhabited?

Exhibit A: "Houses on Seana Bhaile"

Exhibit B

Exhibit C

2 It is circa 30 ha?

3 What is it called? Ben MacDui 11:49, 9 August 2009 (UTC)

Fraoch-eilean is indeed correct. See [6] (map on page 4). Inhabited... well it looks like it, isn't looking at pics OR? :b Akerbeltz (talk) 16:08, 9 August 2009 (UTC)

Remarkable that an apparently inhabited island does not even appear at the Eilean Fraoch dab page. I don't consider reading a map to be OR any more than reading a book, but unlike say South Walls, where there is unequivocal evidence in writing of a resident population we might need a bit more before making any changes (they could all be holiday homes for example).

While I am at it here is a checklist of possible actions.

• Add "Fraoch-eilean" to main island list of Smaller offshore islands. Done
• Add "Fraoch-eilean" to Template:Hebrides  Done
• Add "Fraoch-eilean" to Islands of the Outer Hebrides inhabited list with explanatory note.  Done
• Add "Fraoch-eilean" to Wikipedia:WikiProject Scottish Islands/Islands by area  Done
• Add "Fraoch-eilean" to Eilean Fraoch dab page  Done
• Create "Fraoch-eilean" article

If reliable evidence is found confirming habitation:

• Move "Fraoch-eilean" to main island list of Larger islands (with explanatory note).  Done

I have conducted several google searches without even a mention of this island coming up, but the photographic evidence is I think compelling enough to include it in the inhabited list.

If reliable evidence is found confirming numbers of inhabitants:

• Add "Fraoch-eilean" to Wikipedia:WikiProject Scottish Islands/Populated Islands
• Amend infoboxes and if necessary text of all islands whose population ranks is affected.

Alt suggestion - ignore it! Ben MacDui 20:10, 9 August 2009 (UTC)

I was being tongue in cheek about OR! How does one proove it's inhabited? I could ask a friend but that's certainly OR. Akerbeltz (talk) 20:31, 9 August 2009 (UTC)

I am on the hunt for The Complete Geography and History of Grimsay (north of Benbecula) and Surrounding Islands (2009) by A. Crofter. (English language edition). Google does not seem to come up with much. By all means ask the friend if he/she can come up with some kind of local written information! Ben MacDui 08:52, 11 August 2009 (UTC)

Surely not another > 40 ha island...

Sròmaigh grid reference NF936746. Must be about 50 ha. Ben MacDui 15:39, 9 August 2009 (UTC)

Here is a checklist of possible actions.

• Add "Stromay" to Islands of the Outer Hebrides uninhabited list.  Done
• Create "Stromay" article.  Done

Once agreement is reached regarding size:

• Move "Stromay" to main island list of Larger islands from Smaller islands.  Done
• Add "Stromay" to Wikipedia:WikiProject Scottish Islands/Islands by area  Done
• Amend infoboxes and if necessary text of all islands whose area rank is affected.  Done

This states that it is tidal (p4). There appears to be confusion over the name. It is Stromay (Stromaigh) on Gazetteer for Scotland. Only OS has Sròmaigh. We already have a red link Stromay in the <40 ha List and Stromay (Stromaigh) in Outer_Hebrides#Unpopulated_islands. Sròmaigh is also used on OS at grid reference NF987885. Finavon (talk) 21:57, 11 August 2009 (UTC)

OK , good. Stromay is also on the main island list of Smaller islands so I have amended the above checklist. The Outer_Hebrides#Unpopulated_islands list needs a bit of a revamp (cf List of Outer Hebrides#Uninhabited islands as the former is a shade random, size-wise at least. To a lesser extent the main island list of Smaller islands includes some fairly small islands as red links but omits some with blue links. What we need is an interactive database! Ben MacDui 07:52, 12 August 2009 (UTC)

Yeah, unlike in the middle ages modern Gaels can't spell. Sr clusters in the Northwest invariable come out as /str/, hence the difference between English/Gaelic pairs like strath/srath, Sraad/Sràid, Straenrar/Sròn etc. Sròmaigh (I can't vouch for the accent but if OS has it. it's most likely correct) would be good Gaelic spelling. Akerbeltz (talk) 19:30, 12 August 2009 (UTC)

One less

The third "discovery" during this year's summer trip to the Outer Hebrides was the removal of Heishival Mòr/Theiseabhal Mòr as one of the Barra Isles, which popped up in various places. A quick look at grid reference NL626956 at a resolution of 1:250,000 suggests where this might have come from. Ben MacDui 17:09, 11 August 2009 (UTC)

Is she is, or is she ain't..

If you want to award a prize for the "island that is least like an island" then Stromay has competition. Try Eilean Orasaigh at grid reference NB414212. Fortunately it is too small to trouble the main lists. Ben MacDui 12:56, 15 August 2009 (UTC)

Cause it's tidal? Akerbeltz (talk) 14:41, 15 August 2009 (UTC)

Indeed. Stromay looks like it gets cut off on a daily basis, but this one may only be isolated at spring tides. Ben MacDui 15:34, 15 August 2009 (UTC)

Nearly there

The good news is that with List of Inner Hebrides almost complete no new 40 ha plus islands have appeared from the mist, and I doubt that there are any hiding around Skye's rocky shores. There are a few c. 20 ha ones without articles like Eilean Balnagown near Shuna and the three Soa islands off Iona, Coll and Tiree but I don't have any meaningful info about them to hand from which to create an article in any case.

Freshwater islands are another issue. I doubt any sizeable ones exist in mainland lochs/rivers as these areas are relatively well-trodden. However the Loch Langavat discovery below suggests caution. There are clearly numerous lochs in Eilean Siar with islands that don't yet appear on the freshwater list and it is not out of the question a few sizeable islands remain to be found. I plan to post something about this at Talk:List of freshwater islands in Scotland soon. Ben MacDui 13:37, 22 November 2009 (UTC)

I was right about Skye, but Raasay has a two little secrets. Eilean Fladday (NG585505) just north of Arnish. It's about 100 ha. Also nearby is Eilean Tigh, probably over 40 ha too. The fat lady is warming up, but she ain't singing yet. Ben MacDui 20:44, 22 November 2009 (UTC)

Map problem in Infobox Scottish island

There were some recent changes to Template:Infobox Scottish island and now, from my view, the map is off to the left-hand side in all of the transcluded articles. The editor who made the changes is apparently not able to duplicate the problem. I have tried it with OS X plus Firefox and Safari and in Beta mode and its the same problem in all three modes. If you have any comments please drop a note at User talk:Thumperward#Template:Infobox Scottish island. Thanks, Ben MacDui 13:41, 9 August 2009 (UTC)

Userbox

Wikipedia:WikiProject Scottish Islands/Userbox Any interest in making this more readable? The blue of the the hotlink doesn't stand out very well against the blue background. - Kathryn NicDhàna ♫♦♫ 20:12, 17 August 2009 (UTC)

By all means make a suggestion .... Ben MacDui 07:40, 18 August 2009 (UTC)

No real attachment to any color scheme here. We just need a shade that contrasts better. Thing is, with white text and blue link text, we either need something right in between the two, or need to go with something besides white letters or blue background. I can play with it. How attached are people to the blue and white? - Kathryn NicDhàna ♫♦♫ 01:23, 21 August 2009 (UTC)

Decided to just darken the background a bit and make the link text lighter. Easy enough. - Kathryn NicDhàna ♫♦♫ 03:27, 21 August 2009 (UTC)

Fairy Bridge

Fairy Bridge? Nope, Sligachan bridge.

I was looking for a pic of the 'Fairy Bridge' near Waternish/Dunvegan, Skye, for the article Fairy Flag. I found a free one on Flickr and added it to the article but i just realised that in GoogleImageSearch the hits are showing a different bridge (only one arch). So something's wrong. A few hits have this bridge as the 'fairy bridge' but it seems like most others picture the one with only a single arch. Does anyone know which is which?--Celtus (talk) 07:20, 18 August 2009 (UTC)

I guess it must be wrong. I found the single arched on on Geograph [7].--Celtus (talk) 07:31, 18 August 2009 (UTC)

I am not 100% sure, but this image looks to me like the Red Cuillin (perhaps Glamaig) rather than Waternish. The bridge at Sligachan? Ben MacDui 07:36, 18 August 2009 (UTC)

Yup.. see Sligachan Hotel. Ben MacDui 07:40, 18 August 2009 (UTC)

Googling "Sligachan bridge" turns up the bridge too. I'll get the pic re-named at the Commons. That was a close one, thanks Ben.--Celtus (talk) 07:48, 18 August 2009 (UTC)

Eilean Mhic Chrion

I've just amended the tables for the appearance of Stromay, but here is another one. Eilean Mhic Chrion (not Eilean Mhic Coinnich) in Loch Criagnish at grid reference NM804035. Somewhere in the 35 - 45 ha range. Ben MacDui 19:36, 1 September 2009 (UTC)  Done

St Mary's Isle Priory

St Mary's Isle Priory was apparently "a monastic house of Augustinian canons located on the Isle of Trail in Galloway." The article proudly bears our banner - but I can see no such "isle". In the absence of the Deacon, who began the article I wonder if anyone can confirm that its site was the isle-like peninsula at grid reference NX681500? Ben MacDui 21:30, 2 September 2009 (UTC)

The St Mary's Isle in question is indeed on the peninsula in Kirkcudbright Bay. See the Galtway entry in [8]. —ras52 (talk) 22:42, 9 September 2009 (UTC)

Second question. Is it a former island? If so it might still qualify for the project.--MacRusgail (talk) 15:11, 10 September 2009 (UTC)

It would, and I did wonder given the very narrow neck of land that joins it to the mainland. A medieval Ordnance Survey map would be very helpful. See also :http://www.archive.org/stream/monasticonaccoun01gorduoft/monasticonaccoun01gorduoft_djvu.txt Ben MacDui 19:33, 10 September 2009 (UTC)

Big Brother isn't watching you...

A random trawl suggest some of our more obscure articles are "under-watched". Hascosay, Cairn na Burgh Beag and Haakon Paulsson have but one each. These tiddlers can usually be watched without discomfort as there are few edits on them. You know what to do. Ben MacDui 19:38, 14 September 2009 (UTC)

Happy to add some, but how do I know which articles are little/not watched? Finavon (talk) 22:32, 14 September 2009 (UTC)

• http://toolserver.org/~mzmcbride/cgi-bin/watcher.py?titles

Loch Langavat

An eagle-eyed user has spotted another Eilean Mòr at grid reference NB216220. I am afraid it really is quite mòr. Ben MacDui 08:40, 19 October 2009 (UTC)  Done

Irish Gaelic - there's no place like "holm"

Ballynahinch, County Down has just been added to Holm (island). I find the logic dubious and I wonder if someone who knows for sure what Baile na hInse means could take a look? Ben MacDui 09:20, 30 October 2009 (UTC)

It's correct, depending on your translation of inse, which is translated as "holm, river meadow, water meadow". The place-names commision data by the way can be foiund on the new portal Logainm, quite useful as it also has scans of the historical files. Akerbeltz (talk) 13:55, 30 October 2009 (UTC)

Population density

A discussion started at Talk:Rùm#Population density led to the following question being asked at the Wikipedia:No original research/Noticeboard

The policy allows for this, but it is a little vague. A question has recently come up, which goes something like this. List of Outer Hebrides has a section called "inhabited islands" that list the area and population of the individual islands, both of which are sourced. It would be a trivial arithmetical exercise to calculate the population density from this information. However, so far as I am aware there is no external source that could provide an external verification. Assuming this is the case, does this count as OR?

The presenting issue actually refers to the island of Rùm which is in the Inner Hebrides, which don't have a list of their own at present and I've used the above example to simplify things a little. The compromise we came up with is to state that Rùm is "one of the most sparsely populated of all Scottish islands" rather than give it a specific ranking. Ben MacDui 19:07, 14 October 2009 (UTC)

This is the kind of case where you can use your own judgment, certainly if these matters are not disputable or disputed. Deacon of Pndapetzim (Talk) 20:36, 27 October 2009 (UTC)

The subject is now marked as "resolved" and I interpret this as meaning that, if anyone has the enthusiasm, we could create a table of islands ranked by population density. Ben MacDui 12:47, 31 October 2009 (UTC)

Thanks for the update. If anyone's got the enthusiasm for creating a new table, Ben, it's got to be you! Dhmellor (talk) 13:22, 1 November 2009 (UTC)

Flattery will get you everywhere - but I'm afraid it is a question of priorities. I wonder if I am alone in thinking the "To Do List" section of the main page has become somewhat outdated? Time for a spring clean perhaps... Ben MacDui 15:12, 1 November 2009 (UTC)

Isle with no name

The OS are usually obsessive about providing every rock and skerry with a name, but here is an oddity - a genuine island with no name. It's in the Sound of Kerrera at grid reference NM841293. Ben MacDui

It seems to be Heather Island, located on this map, and the name appears on quite a few websites. Warofdreams talk 20:58, 17 November 2009 (UTC)

Well spotted. I was hoping for something more exotic than yet another Eilean Fraoch tho'! Ben MacDui 17:19, 18 November 2009 (UTC)