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Wikipedia:Templates for deletion/Log/2006 June 18

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June 18, 2006

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The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the template below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the template's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.

The result of the debate was delete -- Drini 21:26, 6 July 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Template:CategorisationDisputedTopics

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Template:CategorisationDisputedTopics (edit | talk | history | links | watch | logs) This created by Jim Butler (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · nuke contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) apparently with the aim of casting doubt on the accuracy of category:Pseudoscience (which already carries a note saying that adherents to pseudoscience often dispute it), because it seems he is a wee bit into alternative "medicine". It is pointless, and not needed since any discussion of whether foo deserves to go into a category should be done at talk:foo. — Dunc|☺ 21:13, 18 June 2006 (UTC)[reply]

  • delete -- a.) the template brings nothing to the party, b.) single-use templates (or those designed for same) have as much legitimacy as using herbs to "cure" cancer (unless the village Shaman prepares the herbs using Nostradanus' recipes, of course). &#0149;Jim62sch&#0149; 21:22, 18 June 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  • Delete - it isn't useful. There's no way to determine which topics are disputed, so it's useless to readers. And since it isn't visible to editors of the articles (unless they have the cats on their watchlist), it doesn't serve to improve the article. Guettarda 23:51, 18 June 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comment - I'll recuse from this, but I wouldn't mind a little more good faith and less ad hominem. A number of editors have identified problems with category:Pseudoscience. I don't agree with all of them, and I'm fine with the idea that this template may not be the best way to address them, but they do need attention. I created this template along the lines of Template:CategorisationDisputedPeople, which presumably was meant to help readers be aware of disputes. I'm pretty sure that there are more than a couple fuzzy and contentious categories on WP. I don't agree that debate over inclusion of foo in such categories depends only on foo; obviously it depends on the boundaries of the category as well. More on Category_talk:Pseudoscience. thx, Jim Butler(talk) 02:35, 19 June 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  • Delete Use of this template adds no value to the article. Also, templates created to further a particular POV is a misuse of templates. FeloniousMonk 05:02, 19 June 2006 (UTC)[reply]
    • Comment Since I created it, I can tell you that this template was not created to further a particular POV. It was created to help readers be aware of disputes, as I said above, and it parallels an existing template. Other editors have argued that category:Pseudoscience is inherently a POV category. WP:CF says "Categories appear without annotations, so be careful of NPOV when creating or filling categories. Unless it is self-evident and uncontroversial that something belongs in a category, it should not be put into a category", but in practice this is sometimes ignored. I'm fine with the argument that there are better ways to alert readers and editors to disputes. I'm not fine with having my motivations gratuitously questioned. thx, Jim Butler(talk) 05:20, 19 June 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  • Delete and handle this type of disagreement on article talk pages. KillerChihuahua?!? 10:24, 19 June 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  • Keep as it is absurd to have Template:CategorisationDisputedPeople and not Template:CategorisationDisputedTopics. Otherwise, get rid of both. -- Reinyday, 18:09, 19 June 2006 (UTC)
  • Keep; I agree strongly with Reinyday's logic. I do have some NPOV concerns about the use of certain categories that are fuzzy and contentious, particularly given these criteria from WP:CG. If Template:CategorisationDisputedPeople serves a purpose, then so does Template:CategorisationDisputedTopics. Happy to discuss this further here, or to discuss other solutions on my user talk page. Thanks, Jim Butler(talk) 02:57, 26 June 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  • Delete Unnecessary invitation to have contents disputes--Brownlee 11:43, 6 July 2006 (UTC)[reply]
The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the template's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.
The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the template below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the template's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.

The result of the debate was Delete -- Drini 01:16, 24 June 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Template:Infobox athlete turned model

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Template:Infobox athlete turned model (edit | talk | history | links | watch | logs)
Only used in Megumi Kawamura. Of doubtful usefulness at best. Circeus 17:05, 18 June 2006 (UTC)[reply]

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the template's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.
The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the template below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the template's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.

The result of the debate was speedied. Flowerparty☀ 07:11, 20 June 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Template:BBArticleSpoiler

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Template:BBArticleSpoiler (edit | talk | history | links | watch | logs)
Not used, since Template:BbSpoiler is used.-- 9cds(talk) 15:27, 18 June 2006 (UTC)[reply]

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the template's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.
The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the template below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the template's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.

The result of the debate was Withdrawn by nominator please continue discussion at Wikipedia:Citing sources/Bible--SomeStranger(t) 12:16, 22 June 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Template:Bibleref

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Both of these are being used to create external links to bible verses instead of to Wikisource Trödel 02:38, 18 June 2006 (UTC)[reply]

  • and? Not everyone, aka most people do not, approve of the wikisource bible version(s).SF2K1
    • and such widespread use of external links, specifically replacing links to pages within wikipedia is contrary to wikipedia's efforts to provide information that is in compliance with the GFDL Trödel
Given the concern re this change effecting so many pages, I will make the changes to the template to point to wikisource, including conditional logic etc. The version to use on wikisource, as reached through concensus below, and have a test version working to the satisfaction of the administrator closing this TfD prior to any action taking place. Regardless of those concerns and any anti-King James movement sentiment, where a GFDL compliant source exists it should be used in preference to sources subject to other licenses. Trödel 00:37, 19 June 2006 (UTC)[reply]
I apologize to voters for not making my GFDL concerns more explicit - I thought it was obvious Trödel 00:37, 19 June 2006 (UTC)[reply]
I agree that the pro to wikisource is GFDL. The pro to BibleGateway is the number of (and flexibility of switching between) translations... including foreign languages. For anyone who wants to study a passage (and I do a lot, I have a degree in Religion), the choice would obviously be to use BibleGateway... at this point in time. BibleGateway isn't hurting anyone, and they are very upfront about the copyright status on the translations they provide. I think it makes the most sense to keep this as it is until either (A) wikisource has a solution that is just as good as BibleGateway or (B) BibleGateway shuts itself down and we have a bunch of dead links. Like I said, there is a pro to both side, but I think it is clear that for an encyclopedic website, it should be more important to give access to the best tools for learning. David Bergan 03:41, 21 June 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Comment: The amount of pages that would be affected by this delete is enourmous. What do we intend to replace it with?--SomeStranger(t|c) 12:11, 18 June 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Comment: Agree, there seems to be a lot of pages that now have links to this discussion and would have to be edited. Wouldn't it be easier to edit the template to point at wikisource instead? Superbeatles 15:39, 18 June 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Reply from nom This is very simple - do not edit the pages at all but after deleting the current version which links to an external website, create a template of the same name to direct to wikisource. To use links such as these is not GFDL compliant especially since links within wikipedia are being replaced with links to an external website (see example) It was my first inclination to be bold and just do so edit the template - but looking at the number of links, I thought a proper community decision was needed first before a change that would effect so many articles. Trödel 00:37, 19 June 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  • Keep and do not edit to point to wikisource Wikisource currently only has the King James Version and World English Bible. Bibleref and Bibleverse provide the ability to neutrally link to over 40 different versions (including some non-english versions), and in many cases allow the reader to alternate to a version of their choice. The Bibleref and Bibleverse templates currently link to the New International Version (which is one of the most religiously neutral versions available from those that the template is currently able to link to) by default, or to specified versions where given (e.g. the Youngs Literal Translation, where it is important to give this specific translation due to the discussion involved). Deliberately favouring the KJV and WEB over the many other versions is a highly religiously motivated stance (see King James Only Movement for example). Clinkophonist 15:41, 18 June 2006 (UTC)[reply]
    • Reply from nom It is contrary to wikipedia policy to include such links to copyrighted material - I did not advocate linking to King James Version. If there is a version that is "religously neutral" I would be happy to assist on wikisource getting the text in. Trödel 00:37, 19 June 2006 (UTC)[reply]
        • (Cutting in): Its not really an issue of "religiously neutral", but one of broad access to the most number of texts --which are typically copyright translations. Access to them is often limited to commercial portals who have license to use them, or else link to them. Given that we all can agree there should be a BibleRef template, the ideal place we link to should also have access to the most number of translations, and not attempt to ourselves make a determination of which is best, most faithful, or most neutral. The only non-commercial source with such access would no doubt be an academic one, which, ideally, would be a permanent interface. Bible.cc is interesting, but Im unaware of how it handles copyright, or if its part of some non-profit, or academic institution. -Ste|vertigo 19:03, 19 June 2006 (UTC)[reply]
    • Further Comment I've just noticed that the nominator edits a lot in articles related to Mormonism, a religious group with an affinity for the King James Only Movement, and I would hazard a guess that this nomination is a bad faith attempt to assert the King James Only POV. Clinkophonist 15:44, 18 June 2006 (UTC)[reply]
      • Reply from nom It is true that this template came to my attention because someone replaced links to Matthew 14 to an external reference. However, a) I dont really care about the King James Only Movement (thanks for letting me know about that article though - interesting reading) and b) that does not change the fact that using templates to create in-line links to an external website is against general policy. {{google}} was deleted for just that reason. Trödel 00:37, 19 June 2006 (UTC)[reply]
    • Comment I don't usually participate in these sorts of discussion, but I do think that the Bible references should be directed within Wikisource. First, the copyright regulations of various translations must be considered. The King James Version is public domain; the New International Version is not (nor is it a "religiously neutral" translation; there is no such thing). Second, it is not practical. Having a few article verses linked to, say, biblegateway.com is far from convenient. This is because, at the very least, it removes the user from the Wiki site's navigation, and thus the context and feel of the site. That's to say nothing of problems inherent in outside sources, such as load time, advertising, etc. Third, the further use of Wikisource for references to the Bible may help in increasing its translation options. The real issue here is not the Wikipedia article, but the translations used by Wikisource, and thus it should be dealt with there, not here. Jonberglund 06:19, 19 June 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Admitting that GFDL is a pro to using wikisource, isn't it better for an encyclopedia to link to the best tool available? I mean if you and I are going to manually look up the verse with BibleGateway (because we prefer it to the KJV at wikisource), why not have wikipedia automatically link us there? GFDL is great, but learning is better. David Bergan 03:52, 21 June 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  • Strong keep. There is no policy that wikipedia is a solely inside job. The ISBN links and the Google Print links are two examples of that. Particularly in this case, since the site that is being linked to is leaps and bounds beyond what wikisource provides, both in scale and usability between the different translations. I my opinion (and this is my opionion), this is a case of WP:Use common sense.--Esprit15d 13:57, 19 June 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  • Strong keep. per Esprit15d. In addition to there being no rule that says sources or External Links need to be open source (if that were the case, how could we cite any other work of literature, LotR, Harry Potter, etc), I think redirecting to a site that allows the user to choose from over 90 bible versions which one is their default, solves POV issues inherent in redirecting to one of the 2 bibles on wikisource. When we cite a bible verse, we are not attempting to transmit text via the GFDL, but simply citing a source. This nomination would seems to me like an attack on any EL or source that isn't open source. Go to Saturday's FA. Scan through the references. Note all the EL to sites that do not follow the GFDL. Now consider how we could write an article if we excluded all these sources to only the GFDL sources of wikisource, wikibook, and wikinews. Does it makes sense where I am coming from, and how ridiculous this proposal seems to me?--Andrew c 14:29, 19 June 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  • Delete Please see Wikipedia is not a mirror or a repository of links, images, or media files. It would seem that bibleref hijacks the intention of wikipedia to link to in-house materials such as wikisource where possible and instead creates a template that is by default a link repository. I understand that some translations are preferable to others by many people, but it is also the policy under WP:COPY to use free sources as opposed to non-free sources where free sources are available. --Vengeful Cynic 16:13, 19 June 2006 (UTC)[reply]
    • Comment: There is not a single item in Wikipedia is not a mirror or a repository of links, images, or media files that applies to this discussion. Points 1, 2 and 4 obviously don't, so I am guessing you are referring to point 3, which also doesn't apply since that concerns text that has been copied and pasted to create a new wikipedia article - not links at all. The examples given concern articles created from the 1911 Encyclopedia Britannica or public domain sites. I am surprised, actually, that you made a reference to WP:COPY since it says (and I quote): "Linking to copyrighted works is usually not a problem, as long as you have made a reasonable effort to determine that the page in question is not violating someone else's copyright." According to BibleGateway.com, all the Bibles they use have been contributed by various Bible societies. So this policy, also, does not relate. --Esprit15d 18:24, 19 June 2006 (UTC)[reply]
      • My argument was in no way intended to say that the policy exists that explicitly precludes the BibleRef template, but rather that the spirit of the policy is essentially that free, internal sources are preferable to non-free, external sources. This isn't to say that one couldn't list links to secondary translations from WikiSource, but that linking to WikiSource copy is preferable to linking to an external, non-free source. --Vengeful Cynic 18:37, 19 June 2006 (UTC)[reply]
        • "free, internal sources are preferable to non-free, external sources" - right, but you're forgetting the important part of the equations: "free, internal, limited/crappy source" VS "non-free, external, flexible/excellent source" At this point in time, BibleGateway is a better tool for learning and that makes all the difference. David Bergan 03:52, 21 June 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  • Keep, but take vote for which source. Wikisource is not ideal, and no efforts have been made to make its Bible texts altogether well integrated. (Mediawiki doesnt handle large document splitting and linking anyway). Its appropriate to choose a source, and using an academic one is preferable to using a commercial source (such as bible.cc). Given that the most desirable link would be a permanent academic compendium in Parallel Bible form, with the most complete and cross-referentiable texts, at any particular time it should be determined which link is best to use. -Ste|vertigo 18:49, 19 June 2006 (UTC)[reply]
    • PS: the ISBN idea is atrocious - a link to an enourmous and overlong page to dig up a link to amazon, bn, etc, is not useful. Ideally ISBN choices could be logged in your preferences, but this too doesnt address the problem that in the quest to be completely neutral, the ISBN page is excessive. -SV
  • Strong Keep and edit the template code if necessary. I really don't understand why this was nominated. Deletion is only a good idea when
1) a page should never have existed in the first place,
2) there is a pressing need to obliterate the page history (e.g. slander, copyright infringement).
There is certainly no obvious reason why either applies here. Whether we link to wikisource or not, whether we link to anything or not, there is still very useful semantic content in these links. --Saforrest 02:12, 20 June 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  • Strong Keep - My favorite translation isn't featured there (New Revised Standard Version), but it is an excellent resource, upfront about its copyright relationships, where you can easily switch to a different translation or language to get a better understanding of the verse. Until wikisource has a resource equal to or greater than biblegateway's we stay with biblegateway. It just makes the most sense that we use the best resource available through the Internet. I have no qualms linking to wikisource if the time comes that it does an equal job, but until then, stay as is and tell your wikisource friends to get on this project. David Bergan 16:41, 20 June 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  • Strong Keep per David Bergan. --M@rēino 17:36, 20 June 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  • Obvious Keep as above - Bible versions are highly controversial and linking to a site that has everything is the only way to stop the KJV-onlyism vs modernism debates ... but am I missing something? At Baptism, the link to "Matthew 28:19" takes you to http://php.ug.cs.usyd.edu.au/~jnot4610/bibref.php?book=%20Matthew&verse=28:19&src=31 ... why does it go there rather than straight to crosswalk.com? BigDT 23:27, 20 June 2006 (UTC)[reply]
The reason that that page linked directly to the site was because it was not using the templates correctly. I went and and changed it.--SomeStranger(t) 12:14, 22 June 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comment Can we remove the TFD message from the part of this template that gets transcluded? Honestly, it's a huge distraction on all of the pages that use it right now. I tried to make it less of one by removing the linebreak, but the template is obviously going to be kept - does the TFD message really have to be transcluded? BigDT 05:08, 21 June 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Proposal
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Given that there are considerable concerns about the ability to have good references to the bible including references to different versions etc. and wikisource seems insufficient to the task at present. However, I think sufficient concerns are expressed above concerning which version to use etc.

There seems to be two sources that I can find so far that could provide multiple versions as well as meet our concerns, as wikipedia under the GFDL.

  1. BibleGateway.com
  2. BibleBrowser.com
  3. The current lookup - which is just a redirect to BibleGateway in most cases - though depding on the source it will redirect to other locations, including to nccbuscc.org, BibleBrowser (but through a wrapper that places google and other advertisements around the BibleBrowser information).

Thus, I think that the template needs to be at the very least edited to use a different source and use that source directly (not through a redirect from an .edu cite - which could give the reference undeserved credibility).

Therefore I withdraw my TfD listing and propose that there be a discussion of the proper way to cite Bible references - and if the community decides to go with an external site, which external site should it be, etc (I am sure there are many others). I propose such discussion begin at Wikipedia:Citing sources/Bible. Starting with those monitoring these discussions, to try to narrow the issues; however, no later than a week from now widely asking for comment.

Please close this TfD as keep and direct further discussion to: Wikipedia:Citing sources/Bible Trödel 22:46, 21 June 2006 (UTC)[reply]

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the template's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.
The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the template below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the template's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.

The result of the debate was moved to RfD--SomeStranger(t) 20:15, 20 June 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Template:Monopoly

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Template:Monopoly (edit | talk | history | links | watch | logs)
The Monopoly template was just a copy of the London game board layout of the board game Monopoly, copied from the Monopoly (game) page. I considered the template name to be too generic, moved the content to Template:LondonMonopolyBoard, and made the necessary change in the article. Nothing now links to Template:Monopoly; it could be deleted. JohnDBuell 01:26, 18 June 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Oh valid point, I didn't see that we HAD a Redirects for Deletion section now. If someone would like to move it, feel free. --JohnDBuell 02:50, 18 June 2006 (UTC)[reply]
We've had one for over 2 years... :) — sjorford++ 14:16, 21 June 2006 (UTC)[reply]
The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the template's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.
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