Anixtu

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Wave Class tankers

Greetings Anixtu.
With regard to your recent edits to the Wave class tanker pages, could you let me know your sources please? Especially with regard to the vessels being fitted with a CIWS Phalanx. Sincerely yours, Antarctic-adventurer (talk) 17:46, 10 June 2011 (UTC)

Direct observation, but you can see Phalanx fitted in this photograph http://www.bfbs.com/news/sites/ssvc.com.bfbs.news/files/images/internal_articles/wave_knight.jpg which forms part of the article cited at reference 4 http://www.bfbs.com/news/worldwide/tanker-key-royal-navys-med-and-middle-east-operations-48017.html

Minigun is a little harder to show, and the positions were modified in her recent refit, but a minigun can be seen in the old bridge wing position at 3:00 of this video http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8C5s371cqpU The new beam minigun positions are on the same level as the flight deck. What I suspect is a minigun, but the picture resolution makes it impossible to see conclusively, is visible in the BFBS photo at the extreme starboard side of that deck, (visually) underneath the jackstay and just to the left of the green trough of Rig 3 in use. There were five GPMG positions, but I suspect that the aftermost position firing directly over the stern from the Hudson Reel Deck (where you can see port and starboard aft GPMGs in the photo) has been converted into a third minigun position, the photo appears to show an "elephant's trunk" spent cartridge discharge chute in that location, but I cannot confirm that. Similarly the focsle weapon mounts have been modified (there are now four), but I cannot say for sure what type of weapon each mount is intended for or whether sufficient weapons are carried for all mounts.

I think it was you who added the CO's name? Be aware that it will be difficult to maintain accurately as they change at 6 month intervals and the change is not published in a timely manner in the public domain. Chief Officer (X) (t/a Captain (X)) Ramsay-Smith remained correct as of 1st June 2011, the most recent reference I have available.Anixtu (talk) 11:21, 14 June 2011 (UTC)

The Rockstar video has been removed from YouTube, but a photograph of the minigun installation on Wave Ruler can be seen here: http://www.flickr.com/photos/alimarante/5168606400/in/set-72157625326047750/ Wave Knight's bridge wing mountings were identical. Anixtu (talk) 12:09, 16 June 2011 (UTC)

Anixtu, it seems you are right! I have found some other videos on youtube which show the miniguns too. The question is, do you know if CIWS/miniguns were fitted to both ships and if so are they still fitted today? Also how many, just the one CIWS? How many miniguns? I suspect that these things change from time to time. Are you in a position to know first hand? (Although secondary/tertiary sources are required for WP as you know). As for the captains, yes you are correct it will be difficult to maintain so I may well remove that info, although see here for RN lists that are updated regularly: http://www.royal-navy.mod.uk/linkedfiles/referencelibrary/ref_library_docs/20110603bridgecard03jun11.pdf Antarctic-adventurer (talk) 12:30, 16 June 2011 (UTC)

CIWS has only been fitted to Wave Knight so far, two units, fore and aft on the mounting plates that have been in position since build. Additional photos are linked to from this discussion forum topic: http://warships1discussionboards.yuku.com/topic/15076 . I expect Waver Ruler to receive the same fit at her next refit but we will have to wait and see. Minigun installations were originally identical on both units, but as mentioned they have been changed on Wave Knight, Wave Ruler's are again likely follow suit at her next refit. Since I know that there were two minigun positions in the first iteration, and the pictorial and video evidence where it can be scraped together supports this, I suggest we go with 2 x minigun for the articles, since my speculation on a third is, for the moment, just that.

Wave Knight also has SSTD but I can never remember the correct designation for that and there doesn't seem to be a section for countermeasures in the general characteristics as currently formatted. Fancy adding it?

Bridge Card release into the public domain, and even distribution through official channels, tends to be rather sporadic. It is supposed to be published quarterly IIRC.

The requirement for secondary/tertiary sources becomes even more frustrating when all of those are derived from original official information that is incorrect or substantially out of date! (Not specific to the Wave Class). Anixtu (talk) 12:49, 16 June 2011 (UTC)

OK thanks for the clarification. So I will go in and standardise the weapons fit. We use templates rather than writing it in manually where the weapons fit is class-wide. Good finds by the way, and good to see that they have had Phalanx added. They must have removed them from another vessel, perhaps one of the decommissioned 42's. I see that you also changed the gun fit from BMARC to DS30B 30 mm cannons. Do you have a source for that also? (And also from 4 x 7.62 machine guns to 5?)

I agree with the annoyance of relying on secondary/tertiary sources at times, especially when they themselves are reporting false information. Fact is, a lot of 'sources' get things wrong, so we have to hunt around for the best and most reliable available. Oh and I can go in and add a standardised countermeasures section (see Trafalgar class submarine CM section for example which I added), but can you give me more on the SSTD? Antarctic-adventurer (talk) 13:04, 16 June 2011 (UTC)

I noticed the use of a template but the precise fit is often different between units of the same class, partly, but not solely, because of staggered refit cycles. On reviewing that NavWeaps topic I notice that I speculated on the Phalanx units having come from Fort George, but I don't now recall why I would have thought that.

There's a Wikipedia article on SSTD: http://en.wiki.x.io/wiki/SSTD . From that (and a bit of memory) Sonar 2170 is the other official designation. I guess we should be consistent with whichever is being used on other RN unit entries.

BMARC was a manufacturer, not a designation for the gun or mounting. See: http://www.navweaps.com/Weapons/WNBR_30-75_GCM.htm which doesn't specifically call anything DS30B, but that is the designation for the locally operated mounting in current RN service.

Unless it's in Jane's there doesn't appear to be a source for the number of GPMGs. My source is first hand eyewitness, but slightly dated. If that isn't better than no source, I'm not going to fight over it. Anixtu (talk) 13:34, 16 June 2011 (UTC)

Thanks for the info. If you can dig me out a source for the SSTD, I'll work it into the articles. Otherwise all looks good for the time being. The ships are finally relatively well armed! If you hear or know any more, give me a shout at my talk page. I like to cover all the RFA articles if I can. There are so few ships left now, that it isn't as big a job as it used to be. Antarctic-adventurer (talk) 16:23, 16 June 2011 (UTC)

The SSDS decoy launchers are visible in the same photo as Phalanx, as the aftermost items on either side of the flight deck, covered in tarpaulins. The Outfit DLJ or DLH or DL[something] (SeaGnat) launchers are visible in these photographs, mounted above the lifeboats on the same deck as Phalanx is now fitted: http://up.wiki.x.io/wikipedia/commons/2/23/Wave_Ruler_refuels_Robert_G_Bradley.jpg http://www.royalnavy.mod.uk/img/no_template/tserverimages/no_template/rfa_wave_knight,_middle,_conducting_a_ras_(replenishment_at_sea)__04129126.jpg

Anixtu (talk) 16:56, 16 June 2011 (UTC)

Great. I'll get to work on it later. Does Wave Ruler also have 5 x 7.62 mm L7 GPMGs onboard? These are fired from fixed mountings I guess? (I know that they don't have to be) Antarctic-adventurer (talk) 18:36, 16 June 2011 (UTC)

Between these two photographs you can see that Wave Ruler has at least five GPMG positions, in the same locations as the pre-refit Wave Knight: http://www.naval.com.br/blog/wp-content/uploads/2010/06/wave-ruler-A390-9168609-GCVR-ml-020610-18-.JPG http://rfaaplymouth.org/gallery2/main.php?g2_view=core.DownloadItem&g2_itemId=1064&g2_serialNumber=2 The number of GPMGs given is for the number of mounting positions. The number of guns actually carried is often in excess of that. They are equipped with bipods and could be fired and handled as infantry weapons if required. Anixtu (talk) 18:54, 16 June 2011 (UTC)

Is the 2 x DS30B 30 mm cannon any relation to the 30mm DS30M Mark 2 Automated Small Calibre Gun? I can't find a page on the DS30B and although we have the photos, I don't see anywhere mention that the guns fitted are these, would be good if we could dig something out. Antarctic-adventurer (talk) 19:18, 16 June 2011 (UTC)

DS30M is the successor system being fitted to T23 in place of DS30B and to T45. It is a different gun, possibly using different ammunition, fitted to a remotely operated mounting with optional local control. DS30B was the Royal Navy's standard 30mm mounting until adoption of the DS30M. The older twin GCM-A03 mountings were removed in the late 90s or early 2000s. Pretty much everything from early-2000s onward has either a DS30B or a GAM-BO1 for close range gunnery. T23s, MCMVs, HMS Clyde, Waves and some Bays are fitted with DS30B, the rest with 20mm GAM-BO1. Anixtu (talk) 19:47, 16 June 2011 (UTC)

OK great, thanks for your explanation. Let me know if you hear anymore! Antarctic-adventurer (talk) 21:15, 20 June 2011 (UTC)