Talk:Zionism

Lead does a poor job of addressing change (or lack thereof) post-1948, modern ideological variation, and integration with one- and two-state solutions

I think the article would be much better, and attract less unnecessary controversy, if the lead did a better job of clarifying to what timeframes, and factions in modern Israel, many of its statements apply to, and how this all relates to attempts to resolve the Israel-Palestine conflict through the one-state solution or the two-state solution in the present-day and the future.

• Zionists wanted to create a Jewish state in Palestine with as much land, as many Jews, and as few Palestinian Arabs as possible.[5] Following the establishment of the State of Israel in 1948, Zionism became Israel's national or state ideology.[6]

This is quite a juxtaposition. The first sentence is in the past tense, but then immediately states that Zionism continues to this day as Israel's state ideology. So, has "as much land, as many Jews, and as few Palestinian Arabs as possible" been Israel's ideology for the entirety of 1948 to 2024? The juxtaposition implies it is; however WP:SYNTH states, Do not combine material from multiple sources to state or imply a conclusion not explicitly stated by any of the sources. (Emphasis added.) It seems unlikely that sources support such a claim applying to all of this time. Differences by ideological factions within modern Israel, and even within Zionism as it is believed today, are inherently very important to this topic, but are glossed over or ignored.

• The common ideology among mainstream Zionist factions is support for territorial concentration and a Jewish demographic majority in Palestine, through colonization.[10]

This is in present tense, although the source cited is about 1882-1956. So, are all Zionists or Israeli political factions today in favor of further colonization? This seems unlikely; at least some Zionists today just support Israel's continued existence in a two-state solution. These are pertinent issues but are missing.

• Differences within the mainstream Zionist groups lie primarily in their presentation and ethos, having adopted similar strategies to achieve their political goals, in particular in the use of violence and compulsory transfer to deal with the presence of the local Palestinian, non-Jewish population.[12][13]

This is also in the present tense, and thereby makes the claim that essentially all Zionists today support "violence and compulsory transfer" of Palestinians. We already were told above that Israel has Zionism as its state ideology. How are we to square all this with the existence of Arab citizens of Israel? Do all political factions within Israel, or even within Zionism specifically, for all the time since the late 1940s, really support violent ethnic cleansing? (The only source with a quote in the ref note is in the past tense.) Again, these relevant issues are all glossed over to make sweeping generalizations without being clear whether or not how widely they actually apply. (And if they do apply widely, well, state so specifically and add some quotes to the ref notes.)

Amazingly, despite Zionism's continued presence as an ideology and as the state ideology of Israel, and its description as the start of the Israeli-Palestinian conflict, information about how it interacts with modern attempts to resolve the conflict (the one-state and two-state solutions) is completely absent. What kind of solution do different kinds of Zionists support? Wikipedia won't tell you apparently, even though the lead makes very sure you're aware of ethnic transfer and the article contains two separate sections on colonialism.

The generalizations and placement of emphasis as described above very much give the impression that the article is leading readers to a particular conclusion about present-day political issues. That is not good. I hope that the article will clarify to whom and when exactly the statements quoted above (and any similar ones) apply rather than vague generalities, and that it will add information about Zionism as it exists today and interacts with geopolitical proposals for the future. Crossroads ^-talk- 19:56, 7 November 2024 (UTC)

Zero sources provided in support of proposed changes. Selfstudier (talk) 20:03, 7 November 2024 (UTC)

Concur with the critique. Andre🚐 20:04, 7 November 2024 (UTC)

The article follows the discussion of Zionism in RS which are focused on the history of Zionism and Zionist ideology. DMH223344 (talk) 20:40, 7 November 2024 (UTC)

What are your concrete suggestions? DMH223344 (talk) 20:46, 7 November 2024 (UTC)

Do the RS say nothing about Zionism vis a vis the one and two state solutions? Also, I noticed you removed the pov tag despite none of the points in WP:WTRMT being met. Lastly, if the lead is relying on citations in the body, then citations for those points should not be used in the lead that don't support the claims (maybe hidden notes used if some points use cites and some don't, just to show editors which ones aren't meant to be found in a subsequent lead cite).

My suggestions are that editors more familiar with this topic than me, and who have read many of these sources (hopefully), specify either that all Zionist factions have held these views (if that is true), or else specify to what factions and time periods they are limited to; and to tie it all into the one and two state solutions. I can't get more concrete than that without massive reading, but I had hoped an outside perspective would help with presenting the topic. Here are some example modified versions of the second sentence I quoted above that illustrate what I mean, but I don't know for sure yet which, if any, is completely accurate (though I suspect the first is not accurate):

• The common ideology among mainstream Zionist factions continues to be support for territorial concentration and a Jewish demographic majority in Israel and Palestine, through further colonization.
• The common ideology among mainstream Zionist factions in the X period was support for territorial concentration and a Jewish demographic majority in Palestine, through colonization.
• The common ideology among mainstream Zionist factions is the continued existence of Israel. The X faction favors a two-state solution that recognizes Palestine, while the Y faction supports the conquest and annexation of the Palestinian Territories.

Why isn't being more specific like this, and tying it into modern views, better? Crossroads ^-talk- 21:07, 7 November 2024 (UTC)

The common ideology among mainstream Zionist factions in the X period was support for territorial concentration and a Jewish demographic majority in Palestine, through colonization.

I agree with this suggestion. I'll add it today unless someone disagrees.

specify either that all Zionist factions have held these views (if that is true), or else specify to what factions and time periods they are limited to; and to tie it all into the one and two state solutions.

The lead is focused on describing the mainstream Zionist ideology and movement. When RS describe mainstream Zionism, they just say "Zionism", so we are doing the same thing here. As for contemporary Zionist groups and their perspective on one vs two state solution, that must be out of scope for the lead of this article. I could see a case being made for describing the perspective on territorial compromise since 1948 though (I believe this is mostly missing from the article body though). DMH223344 (talk) 21:17, 7 November 2024 (UTC)

I appreciate the improvement to that sentence. I hope we can make similar improvements to other problem points. I do not think that contemporary Zionism can be out of scope for the lead once it is added to the body. I think post-1948 perspectives should be added to the body and the lead. Crossroads ^-talk- 22:30, 8 November 2024 (UTC)

agree strongly with this! Andre🚐 22:37, 8 November 2024 (UTC)

I dont disagree with inclusion of discussion of contemporary Zionism. It's specifically a focus around perspective on 1 vs 2 state that I dont think is leadworthy here. DMH223344 (talk) 23:17, 8 November 2024 (UTC)

My suggestion is that you read the sources that are cited, and don't ask other editors to do anything, including consider any changes, until you have done so. I, for one, don't want to spend my time discussing this article with people who haven't read the sources that are cited in this article. Maybe I'm being unreasonable in expecting this of other editors. (Certainly unrealistic.) Levivich (talk) 22:39, 7 November 2024 (UTC)

I actually do think it is unreasonable to - taking the third bullet point above as an example - expect me to read at least three entire books to even start to work on it because the citation notes for the claim are so poorly done. Crossroads ^-talk- 22:23, 8 November 2024 (UTC)

Much of what you are seeing is in my opinion just the result of normal WP iterative editing process. Rewording and moving text around without checking the cited sources, a hyper-focus on the wording in the lead without explaining further in the body, using snippets of sources to build content without reading carefully the whole source and context, etc. All amplified by being a CTOP article and seeking to meet WP:CONSENSUS where consensus is just too difficult or impossible to achieve.

There is much presentism evident in the article already so looking thru the lens of one or two state "solutions" is probably a step in the wrong direction. Of course we do have two potential states to describe in the body (and what is there is probably inadequate) but should not look at that in the same way you are describing. Lest Selfstudier accuse me of being a post-Zionist again (please take that good-naturedly) some presentism is really unavoidable given the best sources.

Editors are working on issues, Levivich began a "best sources" discussion, Selfstudier was going through the lead sentence-by-sentence, and DMH223344 is re-working the body. I was going through the sources (and probably would have thrown a bunch of fv's and cn's in there if this were a different article while doing that. May have lost focus with too many cooks at the pot. I'll come back to the source work after the distraction of some much more refreshing reading. fiveby(zero) 15:40, 8 November 2024 (UTC)

Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 8 November 2024

Zionism (Zion being Jerusalem)is the movement for the self-determination and statehood for the Jewish people in their ancestral homeland in Palestine where ancient Israel used to be. 77.137.28.218 (talk) 11:25, 8 November 2024 (UTC)

 Not done: it's not clear what changes you want to be made. Please mention the specific changes in a "change X to Y" format and provide a reliable source if appropriate. M.Bitton (talk) 14:57, 8 November 2024 (UTC)

Penslar 2023

@DMH223344, FYI there was one Penslar 2023 ref (#74) where I couldn't easily figure out which part of the book was being referenced, but I'm happy to look up the page number if you can narrow it down. Levivich (talk) 19:48, 8 November 2024 (UTC)

Here are some of the relevant quotes in my notes:

Like other nationalisms, Zionism justifies itself through appeals to history, but it does so anachronistically. It transforms rabbinic Judaism’s concepts of the sacred— the Jews’ common devotion to the God of Israel, veneration of the biblical Land of Israel, and the concept of an eventual Jewish return to that land in the messianic era— into a modern nationalist idiom.

In this sense, Zionism was anachronistic in two contradictory ways: it was prochronic in its projection of modern Jewish nationhood into the ancient Jewish past, but it was also parachronic in its neglect, dismissal, or obscuring of earlier Jewish political projects that played an important role in Zionism's origins... Zionist ideology is prochronic in its depiction of Jews as a nation, anchored in the biblical Land of Israel, that maintained its unity across millennia of dispersion

Zionism’s prochronistic views about the nature of Jewish nationhood and its parachronistic neglect of the context from which Zionism emerged also characterized its representation of the Jews’ relationship with the Land of Israel. Jewish connections with the Land of Israel are ancient and deep, but they should not be equated with Zionist goals to settle Jews in the land and configure it as a Jewish homeland. Rabbinic Judaism venerates the Land of Israel, but there has been a wide range of opinions on whether it is religiously commanded to live there. Talmudic sources emphasize that the mass return of Jews to the Land of Israel will occur only in the days of the Messiah and that attempting to initiate this return prematurely is a sacrilege.

DMH223344 (talk) 20:24, 8 November 2024 (UTC)

Perfect, thanks! (pp. 18, 19, and 23) Will update the cite now. Levivich (talk) 20:52, 8 November 2024 (UTC)

Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 13 November 2024

Change "Zionism[a] is an ethnocultural nationalist[b] movement that emerged in Europe in the late 19th century and aimed for the establishment of a Jewish state through the colonization[2] of a land outside Europe. With the rejection of alternative proposals for a Jewish state, it focused on the establishment of a homeland for the Jewish people in Palestine,[3] a region corresponding to the Land of Israel in Judaism,[4] and of central importance in Jewish history. Zionists wanted to create a Jewish state in Palestine with as much land, as many Jews, and as few Palestinian Arabs as possible.[5] Following the establishment of the State of Israel in 1948, Zionism became Israel's national or state ideology.[6]

As a nationalist movement and ideology, the primary goal of the Zionist movement from 1897 to 1948 was to establish the basis for a Jewish homeland in Palestine, and thereafter to consolidate and maintain it. The movement itself recognized that Zionism's position, that an extraterritorial population had the strongest claim to Palestine, went against the commonly accepted interpretation of the principle of self-determination.[9]"

to

"Zionism is the belief and desire for an independent Jewish state in the ancestral homeland of the Jewish people, Israel. While the Zionist movement officially began in late 19th Europe in response to rising anti-semitism, a Jewish presence has endured in the land of Israel for millennia and the desire to return to Zion—referring to both the land of Israel and Jerusalem in biblical terms—has been central to Jewish communal identity since the Romans forcibly seized the land, exiling the Jewish people nearly two thousand years ago.

Modern Zionism began in late 19th century Europe as nationalism was on the rise throughout Europe. Throughout much of history, Jews in Europe were seen as other or "Oriental" by non-Jewish Europeans. Some Jews attempted to assimilate and become more secular through the Reform Movement. However, this did not spare them from the anti-Jewish riots or pogroms that swept Europe in the 19th century. "

Reason for the edit request: The existing text is factually incorrect and has a strong anti-zionist and anti-semitic bias. Much of the article's content is inaccurate and written from an anti-semitic perspective. Zionism is not a colonialist movement as many anti-zionists believe, but it is a decolonialist movement. It is the largest landback movement in history and inspired landback movements for many indigenous tribes in North America. Please fact-check this entire article. The content of this article is extremely harmful to the Jewish people as it is now. F writer935 (talk) 21:25, 13 November 2024 (UTC)

 Not done: Requests to entirely rewrite the lead to have a completely different POV is not really the stuff of edit requests; it is not an uncontroversial edit. There is no consensus for these changes; discussion of changes to the lead is ongoing elsewhere on this page. When you reach WP:XC, you can join them. Levivich (talk) 06:34, 14 November 2024 (UTC)

References

Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 14 November 2024

Change: Zionism[a] is an ethnocultural nationalist[b] movement that emerged in Europe in the late 19th century and aimed for the establishment of a Jewish state through the colonization[2] of a land outside Europe. to

Zionism[a] is an ethnocultural nationalist[b] movement that emerged in Europe in the late 19th century and aimed for the establishment of a Jewish state through the de-colonization[2]of historic Jewish land.

Recommended Citation: Ukashi, Ran (2018) "Zionism, Imperialism, and Indigeneity in Israel/Palestine: A Critical Analysis," Peace and Conflict Studies: Vol. 25 : No. 1 , Article 7. DOI: 10.46743/1082-7307/2018.1442 Available at: https://nsuworks.nova.edu/pcs/vol25/iss1/7

Alternative: Ilan Troen and Carol Troen Source: Israel Studies , Vol. 24, No. 2, Word Crimes; Reclaiming The Language of the Israeli-Palestinian Conflict (Summer 2019), pp. 17-32, Indiana University Press, Stable URL: https://www.jstor.org/stable/10.2979/israelstudies.24.2.02

Alternative: https://www.hoover.org/research/jewish-roots-land-israelpalestine SECschol (talk) 20:34, 14 November 2024 (UTC)

 Not done: There is no consensus for this request. Please review WP:XC. Once your account has reached extended confirmed user status, you can attempt to change consensus. Grayfell (talk) 21:03, 14 November 2024 (UTC)

Lead paragraph wording

The opening sentence mentions Europe twice and Palestine not once, which is absurd. The second sentence oddly mentions fringe proposals ahead of Palestine. I propose to change it to this:

Zionism is an ethnocultural nationalist movement that emerged in Europe in the late 19th century and aimed for the establishment of a homeland for the Jewish people through the colonization of Palestine, a region corresponding to the Land of Israel in Judaism. Alternative locations were proposed, but rejected.

Triggerhippie4 (talk) 13:13, 17 November 2024 (UTC)

I agree with your concerns generally, but I would write "through the colonization of Palestine, a region corresponding to the Land of Israel in Judaism". Which land does "of a land in Palestine" refer to? Bitspectator ⛩️ 13:21, 17 November 2024 (UTC)

@Bitspectator: Of course, my bad copyediting.  Fixed. --Triggerhippie4 (talk) 13:28, 17 November 2024 (UTC)

Thanks. I would prefer your suggestion to the first two sentences we have now. Bitspectator ⛩️ 13:34, 17 November 2024 (UTC)

As far as I can tell, the expression "homeland for the Jewish people" is of recent vintage (Balfour?), the Jewish religious connection being instead referred to as "Return to Zion". Regardless, Zionism from it's inception sought a Jewish State, at Basel, in the Declaration of Independence and politically speaking ever since. So I don't agree with that change. I am not bothered about the alternative locations bit, it could be left out altogether. As I said before, nor am I bothered by excluding "a land outside Europe". Selfstudier (talk) 13:52, 17 November 2024 (UTC)

In any case I am not disposed to agree to anything at all until it is explained in detail what fringe theories exist in the lead just seems like another of the frequent tag shaming attempts afaics. Selfstudier (talk) 14:01, 17 November 2024 (UTC)

The fringe theories are that other places ("outside Europe," "alternative proposals") have more relevance to Zionism than Palestine. Triggerhippie4 (talk) 15:23, 17 November 2024 (UTC)

That's not a fringe theory and nothing in the article suggests other places have more relevance to Zionism than Palestine.

Did you read the talk page before starting this section? There are many lead sections already, why start a new duplicative one instead of joining the discussion already in progress?

The point you're raising is already under discussion in another section above. Same with tagging the article.

Sadly you're not even the first person to tag the article and start a new talk page thread about something that was already being actively discussed in another thread. I never understand why people write before they read.

Anyway, my opinion on this is same as I stated in the other sections. Levivich (talk) 15:33, 17 November 2024 (UTC)

Presenting other places as more relevant to Zionism than Palestine is of course a fringe theory. And that is what the lead does by mentioning Palestine after other places and outside the opening sentence. I read the talk page, not the archives, before starting this section, and did not find your opinion on the point I raised. Triggerhippie4 (talk) 15:49, 17 November 2024 (UTC)

#Lede problems is literally proposing striking the same "alternative proposals for a Jewish state" language (which I agree with btw) you've raised for discussion here. The language "a region corresponding to ..." has been discussed in Archives 22, 23, 24, 25, 27, and 29 [1], are we just going to discuss this over and over? In between August, when you were last here, and today, there's been a bunch of work done. You're welcome to join in the discussions and work, but keeping us stuck on the same place, arguing the same few words/sentences, for months... is not helpful. Look at the RSes, especially the ones in the article and vetted on the talk page (now in the archives), propose something that incorporates other editors' feedback over the last 3 months, or support someone else's proposals. It's like Groundhog Day on this page, with people coming here to argue the same points over and over without ever reading the discussion from the last time. Levivich (talk) 16:12, 17 November 2024 (UTC)

The original poster in #Lede problems suggested, among other things, moving the "alternative proposals" passage down, which is also a part of my proposal, but the discussion has moved on to other subjects. And I don't dispute the wording of "a region corresponding to ...", but suggest moving it from the second sentence to the first. I'm glad we can address the order of the word Palestine in the lead without getting distracted by other topics, and that a consensus is forming for change. Triggerhippie4 (talk) 17:01, 17 November 2024 (UTC)

Boldly made an attempt at rewording the lead [2]. Hopefully other commenters think that this is an improvement. Hemiauchenia (talk) 17:08, 18 November 2024 (UTC)

It wasn't so bad altho it seemed a bit like an attempt to keep everybody happy more than anything else. It's been reverted but fwiw, I didn't like the primarily focused on part, it should be something more like initially focused on the homeland thing (nor am I entirely convinced that Zionism was focused on that at all, I think people like the British were focused on that and Zionists just went along with it since it was progress toward a return to Zion/state.). Selfstudier (talk) 17:32, 18 November 2024 (UTC)

agreed, the new phrasing is misleading. DMH223344 (talk) 18:19, 18 November 2024 (UTC)

Tried to address this [3]. Obviously we're never going to have an article that's going to please everyone in every single aspect. Hemiauchenia (talk) 18:27, 18 November 2024 (UTC)

We can change "primarily focused" to "focused". DMH223344 (talk) 18:36, 18 November 2024 (UTC)

I think an improvement, yes Andre🚐 17:37, 18 November 2024 (UTC)

I'm strongly in favor of the current first sentence ending with "...of Palestine." I think "Jewish state in Palestine" is so important to any description of Zionism--such a sine qua non--that it must be in the first sentence, as it is currently. I don't think it's accurate to say that Zionism "primarily" or "mainly" focused on Palestine, because that implies there was a secondary focus on somewhere other than Palestine, as if most Zionists were focused on Palestine but there were also some other Zionists who were busy colonizing somewhere else--that's not true.

More generally, I do not think that "alternative locations" is important enough to be in the first paragraph of the lead, and maybe not even in the lead at all. We have to remember what the Uganda Scheme was in the context of Zionism's overall development. First, remember that Der Judenstaat was published in 1896--I believe this is the starting point of Zionism according to most sources. The first World Zionist Congress was the following year, 1897--this is indisputably the official start of Zionism, and the latest point at which the start of Zionism can be placed. At that 1897 Congress, they adopted the Basel Program, which said "in Palestine"--there can be no dispute that "in Palestine" was a key part of the official Zionist program from their first Congress. Plus, the word "Zion" (the name of a hill in Jerusalem) is the root of "Zionism". There really can be no doubt that Palestine was part of Zionism from the get-go.

The Uganda Scheme happened just 6 years later, in 1903. It came on the heels of various events, like the 1903 Kishinev pogrom and 1899-1902 Second Boer War, as well as problems early Zionists had with the Ottomans. It was an idea by the British and Theodor Herzl. It was proposed and rejected at the Sixth Zionist Congress. As far as I know, never before, and never again, did the Zionists ever seriously consider any place other than Palestine. So we're talking about something that happened six years after the founding of this 125-year-old movement. It was a blip, an oddity. Not a core part of what Zionism is. I don't know why this article should put so much focus on this one-time non-event, so much that it's in the first paragraph of the lead.

I'd be convinced to change my opinion if it can be shown that books about Zionism heavily focus on, or put significant attention or importance upon, the Uganda Scheme or consideration of places other than Palestine generally. I could be wrong, but I do not think this is what they say.

So I think the line "several other alternative locations that were outside of Europe, such as in East Africa and South America, were proposed and rejected by the movement" should be removed from the lead. I don't even think it's true that "several" locations were "proposed" (I think just East Africa was proposed?), and I don't know what the reference to South America is about. This Wikipedia article says nothing about South America being proposed, just that one historian (Penslar) thinks Herzl may have had it in mind at one point, and that is not worthy of including in the lead. Levivich (talk) 19:28, 18 November 2024 (UTC)

South America is about the Argentinan proposal as mentioned in Zionism#Territories_considered. I don't see an issue with removing reference to the alternative proposals from the first paragraph (or maybe even entirely) because at least retrospectively they seem like minor asides to the movements clear focus on Palestine. Hemiauchenia (talk) 19:36, 18 November 2024 (UTC)

Ah--thank you for pointing me to that section. I think the section actually reinforces my point. Wikipedia says, as does the cited source, that Herzl considered places other than Palestine and East Africa (source: "Zionism's prophet, Theodor Herzl, considered Argentina, Cyprus, Mesopotamia, Mozambique, and the Sinai Peninsula as potential Jewish homelands."), which doesn't mean anyone else in the Zionist movement considered these places. Later in the same paragraph, Wikipedia says (cited to another source) that it's unclear if Herzl seriously considered the Argentina plan. That seems to directly contradict what the lead says ("several other alternative locations that were outside of Europe, such as in East Africa and South America, were proposed and rejected by the movement")... if Herzl considered these, and maybe not even seriously considered them, that doesn't support "proposed and rejected by the movement." AFAIK, and it seems like as far as Wikipedia/the sources say, only East Africa was proposed and rejected by the movement.

So for this reason--that the sentence in the lead isn't supported in the body--I'm going to remove the sentence from the lead. (If anyone disagrees, feel free to revert and explain why.)

I'll note as an aside that I think even the body section on "territories considered" seems too long for this high-level summary article--though I wouldn't want to see this content removed from Wikipedia altogether--I wonder if the full detail should be moved to some sub-article, and a shorter summary left in its place. Levivich (talk) 19:59, 18 November 2024 (UTC)

OK, I made some changes to the first paragraph, hopefully my edit summaries were self-explanatory. Anyone should feel free to tweak/revert/whatever as you see fit. Levivich (talk) 20:14, 18 November 2024 (UTC)

I think your version is fine, and don't intend to make further changes. Hemiauchenia (talk) 20:14, 18 November 2024 (UTC)

OK, let's give that a go, see what happens. Selfstudier (talk) 22:26, 18 November 2024 (UTC)

Glad to see some positive improvements. Nice work everyone. Andre🚐 23:03, 18 November 2024 (UTC)

Quickly dropping in to say I think "of Palestine" is an EGG link, since Palestine points to State of Palestine, not the linked Palestine (region). We cool switching it to "of the region of Palestine" or "of historic Palestine"? theleekycauldron (talk • she/her) 07:32, 19 November 2024 (UTC)

I think "region of" is good Andre🚐 09:29, 19 November 2024 (UTC)

FWIW I'm not opposed to it, but to my ears, "region of X" means "in and around X" as opposed to "in X". The meaning we're going for is "inside X", as in "in a part of X" (there is some scholarly debate about whether it was really "in all of X").

Although my real quibble is that Palestine (region) should be moved to Palestine because the thing that existed for 2,000+ years is obviously the primary topic over the thing that was declared less than 40 years ago and doesn't even really fully exist yet right now. But that would be a discussion for another page (and I don't intend on taking it up). Levivich (talk) 16:36, 19 November 2024 (UTC)

OT Discussion of Palestine DAB
The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it.
I didn't really see the problem with Palestine, we often do that kind of thing elsewhere, I suppose you could put Palestine. Anyway there was a recent RM about it. Selfstudier (talk) 16:57, 19 November 2024 (UTC) After skimming that RM and the prior one, I see I'm not alone and that makes me rethink taking it up. There have been many unsuccessful State of Palestine RMs recently, but apparently, there hasn't been a Palestine (region) RM in 10 years. Levivich (talk) 17:22, 19 November 2024 (UTC) Before, if you wanted to write Palestine, you couldn't, it would throw a DAB error, now it doesn't. It's not simple to deal with. Personally I prefer the current set up. Selfstudier (talk) 17:35, 19 November 2024 (UTC) That won't be a problem if Palestine (region) was moved back to Palestine (where it was before 2015). Here's my RM argument in a nutshell: if you look at the works listed at Bibliography of the Arab–Israeli conflict#Palestine, almost all of them use the word "Palestine" to mean the historical region, not the modern state. This includes what I'd call the "Big 3 Histories": Khalidi's Hundred Years' War on Palestine, Masalha's Palestine: A Four Thousand Year History, and Pappe's A History of Modern Palestine. I'm curious if that changes your mind at all? Levivich (talk) 17:43, 19 November 2024 (UTC) What is Israel occupying is what interests me more. Selfstudier (talk) 17:52, 19 November 2024 (UTC) Israel is occupying about 25% of Palestine (and owns the other 75%). Levivich (talk) 17:58, 19 November 2024 (UTC) Israel is occupying 100% of Palestine. Selfstudier (talk) 18:13, 19 November 2024 (UTC) Or Israel is occupying Palestine, full stop. Selfstudier (talk) 18:15, 19 November 2024 (UTC) Illegally. Selfstudier (talk) 18:15, 19 November 2024 (UTC) Eh, 54% is legal: the world passed a law to allow it. Immoral, sure, but legal. Levivich (talk) 18:18, 19 November 2024 (UTC) Occupation of SoP (ie Palestine) is illegal. As for the rest, it was never tested in court and is unlikely to be, so we'll never know. Selfstudier (talk) 18:20, 19 November 2024 (UTC)

agreed about the phrasing. In RS the phrasing is usually "in Palestine", not "in the region of Palestine". DMH223344 (talk) 17:15, 19 November 2024 (UTC)

Which is why I liked it the way it was to begin with, in different articles it is customary to specify "which" Palestine is meant and I don't really see it as an EGG. Selfstudier (talk) 17:39, 19 November 2024 (UTC)

@Selfstudier I didn't see the original link as an MOS:EGG either, but if it had to be changed, I prefer your choice of historic Palestine. It reads better to me personally & seems more concise then the region of Palestine.

I will note however that your change was reverted, so I'd like to ask @האופה why they consider it a "pov term". Butterscotch Beluga (talk) 20:09, 19 November 2024 (UTC)

Include Dictionary Definition of Zionism in Lead

Opening sentence is biased and not from a neutral perspective.

Change opening sentence from:

"Zionism is an ethnocultural nationalist movement that emerged in Europe in the late 19th century and aimed for the establishment of a homeland for the Jewish people through the colonization of the region of Palestine, an area roughly corresponding to the Land of Israel in Judaism, and of central importance in Jewish history." to

"Zionism is a movement for the re-establishment, development, and protection of a Jewish nation in what is now Israel."

Use the definition of Zionism from the Oxford Dictionary: Zionism is "a movement for (originally) the re-establishment and (now) the development and protection of a Jewish nation in what is now Israel."

https://www.oxfordreference.com/display/10.1093/oi/authority.20110803133512904 SECschol (talk) 14:55, 19 November 2024 (UTC)

The opening paragraphs of a Wikipedia article are written according to WP:LEAD guidelines. We can't add copyrighted text from somewhere else.--♦IanMacM♦ ^{(talk to me)} 15:06, 19 November 2024 (UTC)

Thank you! The guidelines you referenced say: [The lead] should be written in a clear, accessible style with a neutral point of view.

Would it be a problem to include the dictionary definition if we cite the Oxford dictionary?

Alternatively, we could reword the definition: "Zionism is a movement dedicated to the re-establishment, growth, and safeguarding of a Jewish homeland in the region now known as Israel." and still cite the dictionary.

I think this defintion is a more balanced and neutral definition rather than suggesting it's a "colonial project" in the first sentence of the article...a widely disputed proposition. SECschol (talk) 20:16, 19 November 2024 (UTC)

Edit Lead for Clarity

Change "Zionism is an ethnocultural nationalist movement that emerged in Europe in the late 19th century and aimed for the establishment of a homeland for the Jewish people through the colonization of the region of Palestine, an area roughly corresponding to the Land of Israel in Judaism, and of central importance in Jewish history."

to

"Zionism is a political and cultural movement that emerged in the late 19th century with the goal of establishing a Jewish homeland in the region of Palestine, which is today the modern state of Israel."

Helps clarify and is more concise. Original version is too wordy and complicated.

Also would recommend including as a second sentence: The term "Zionism" is derived from the Hebrew word Zion, which is a biblical reference to Jerusalem and the Land of Israel.

This is mentioned in the terminology section, but could be moved to the lead as such:

Zionism is a political and cultural movement that emerged in the late 19th century with the goal of establishing a Jewish homeland in the region of Palestine, which is today the modern state of Israel. The term "Zionism" is derived from the Hebrew word Zion, which is a biblical reference to Jerusalem and the Land of Israel. SECschol (talk) 20:34, 19 November 2024 (UTC)

Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 19 November 2024

Why is there this section?: Zionism as settler colonialism

But not this section: Zionism as an Indigenous Rights Movement

Zionism has increasingly been understood by some scholars and activists as a movement for the recognition and rights of an indigenous people. Central to this view is the assertion that Jews, as a historically oppressed group with deep historical, cultural, and religious ties to the land of Israel, possess indigenous status within the region. This perspective highlights the long-standing Jewish presence in the land of Israel, dating back over 3,000 years, with continuous settlement and cultural development despite successive periods of exile, foreign rule, and persecution. The rise of Zionism in the late 19th century, fueled by the desire to escape rising European antisemitism and the impacts of the Holocaust, was seen by its proponents as a necessary assertion of Jewish self-determination, akin to other indigenous movements around the world fighting for the right to self-govern and protect their cultural heritage. This view aligns with international frameworks on indigenous rights, such as the United Nations Declaration on the Rights of Indigenous Peoples, which recognizes the right of indigenous peoples to maintain their distinct cultural identities, languages, and connection to traditional lands. As the discourse around Zionism continues to evolve, particularly in the context of the Israeli-Palestinian conflict, the understanding of Zionism as an indigenous rights movement remains a contentious but important aspect of the broader conversation on nationalism, self-determination, and the politics of the Middle East.

Source: https://www.hoover.org/research/jewish-roots-land-israelpalestine See Also: Ukashi, Ran (2018) "Zionism, Imperialism, and Indigeneity in Israel/Palestine: A Critical Analysis," Peace and Conflict Studies: Vol. 25 : No. 1 , Article 7. DOI: 10.46743/1082-7307/2018.1442 Available at: https://nsuworks.nova.edu/pcs/vol25/iss1/7

Either delete this section in its entirety: Zionism as settler colonialism

or include the above section to provide a neutral unbiased perspective by providing both sides of the debate. SECschol (talk) 21:00, 19 November 2024 (UTC)

Not done: There is no consensus for this request. Please review WP:XC. Once your account has reached extended confirmed user status, you can attempt to change consensus. DMH223344 (talk) 21:32, 19 November 2024 (UTC)

DMH223344, has this change been proposed before? theleekycauldron (talk • she/her) 12:09, 20 November 2024 (UTC)

not as far as I know, have you seen a similar proposal? DMH223344 (talk) 16:15, 20 November 2024 (UTC)

No, so I'm curious why you'd say there's no consensus for it. theleekycauldron (talk • she/her) 09:42, 22 November 2024 (UTC)

How will a nonec user work to establish consensus for something they are proposing? DMH223344 (talk) 18:07, 22 November 2024 (UTC)

if consensus is required to fulfill an edit request, doesn't that mean we should summarily decline almost all of them? theleekycauldron (talk • she/her) 22:40, 22 November 2024 (UTC)

Edit requests are for uncontroversial edits like fixing typos or obvious errors; see WP:EDITXY. Levivich (talk) 22:51, 22 November 2024 (UTC)

Got it, thanks :) theleekycauldron (talk • she/her) 23:22, 22 November 2024 (UTC)

Pretty much, unless they are simple and straightforward to implement. As soon as they run into paragraphs, explanations and opinion, then they usually aren't. Or those making the requests haven't read the talkpages/archives, which seems to happen a lot, especially on this page. Selfstudier (talk) 23:11, 22 November 2024 (UTC)

Either delete this section in its entirety: Zionism as settler colonialism That's not going to happen.

or include the above section to provide a neutral unbiased perspective by providing both sides of the debate Nor is this, or at least we will not be simply reflecting a view asserting that Jews are indigeneous, noting also that this is not the same thing as a contrary view to Zionism as settler colonialism. As well the author of the first source given does not appear to be an expert on Zionism while the second source given is from a person who was a PHD candidate at the time so neither of these are particularly great sources.

That said, there may be a case for more properly reflecting (a possibly adjusted) lead of Zionism as settler colonialism in this article in summary style. Note that Penslar (a best source) says (see Talk:Zionism/Archive 25#Penslar on colonialism/settler colonialism):

"There is a deep divide, however, between scholars who do and do not conceive of Zionism as a variety of colonialism. Debates about virtually every aspect of the history of Zionism and Israel boil down to clashing conceptions of the essence of the Zionist project—whether it has been one of homecoming and seeking asylum or one of colonial settlement and expropriation." and

""Our comparative examination of colonial indigenization places Zionism within a settler-colonial matrix while allowing for its particularities, like a celestial body with an eccentric orbit around its sun." "The questions underlying this chapter, like its predecessor, are about Zionism’s most essential and salient qualities."

Those matters can be dealt with as part of the ongoing discussions about this article by EC editors. Selfstudier (talk) 12:40, 20 November 2024 (UTC)

See Penslar 2007 p. 108: Thus far I have set Zionism against the background of colonialism, anti-colonial movements, and post-colonial states. I have argued that Zionism is not merely a subset of the first and can, like the latter two, be simplified and rendered largely congruent with European nationalism. ... for its strategic value, natural resources, or productive capabilities but rather because of what Jews believed to be historic, religious, and cultural ties to the area known to them as the Land of Israel.... Zionism was based in concepts of return, restoration, and re-inscription. Please read the whole page of course, as I necessarily cannot quote all of it, but it is an extremely nuanced take and there are many surrounding aspects that shed light on this, I can only quote the part responsive to the point I'm making. He acknowledges the parallel to settler-colonialism such as the Puritans, but contrasts it with such: Zionists didn't see the land as a tabula rasa. See also p.111 which he points out that Israel's colonialism should be understood post-1967. Andre🚐 02:58, 23 November 2024 (UTC)

Of course, there is lots of nuance but the conclusion is as I outlined in the second quote above (from Penslar in 2024 not 2007) "Our comparative examination of colonial indigenization places Zionism within a settler-colonial matrix while allowing for its particularities". Selfstudier (talk) 10:17, 23 November 2024 (UTC)

In the section "Zionism and colonialism" Penslar's coverage of the topic is only partially addressed, I'm happy to have a discussion about what additions or changes you suggest. One aspect that is covered is that some authors frame 67 as a turning point (although penslar is not currently listed as one of those authors). Are you sure you have page 111 correct? DMH223344 (talk) 16:56, 23 November 2024 (UTC)

References

Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 21 November 2024

{{edit extended-protected|Zionism|answered=yes} Please change "Zionists wanted to create a Jewish state in Palestine with as much land, as many Jews, and as few Palestinian Arabs as possible.[4]" "Some historians claim that Zionists wanted to create a Jewish state in Palestine with as much land, as many Jews, and as few Palestinian Arabs as possible.[4]" Bustthatshmutz (talk) 18:07, 21 November 2024 (UTC)

This is already being dealt with by EC editors.Selfstudier (talk) 18:11, 21 November 2024 (UTC)