Talk:Toronto subway

Is a black version of the system map permitted?

I made a system map with a black background because I feel it looks better than the white version, but would a black version violate copyright because it's so close to the official TTC version? Transportfan70 (talk) 05:39, 8 May 2022 (UTC)

I think that a black version of your map would be fine copyright wise - however, I feel that a black background version is significantly less readable and useful for readers than a white background map. Therefore I think the status quo is best. Turini2 (talk) 10:00, 8 May 2022 (UTC)

Here's the black version I made with Line 5 open (would be uploaded to article after opening): See if you think it's appropriate when enlarged:

Transportfan70 (talk) 04:14, 14 May 2022 (UTC)

yeah it looks fine copyright wise, but I think a white version is much nicer and more readable than that - given accessibility considerations, we should probably stick with the white. Turini2 (talk) 19:31, 15 May 2022 (UTC)

How is black less readable and "accessible"? I find the station names on the black version are clearer actually. Transportfan70 (talk) 01:21, 16 May 2022 (UTC)

A variety of reasons, including contrast, readability, colour blindness and MOS:COLOR & MOS:COLORCODING.

"[White on Black] can also cause a blurring effect around the edges of letters, particularly when illuminated. This phenomenon is called ‘halation’ and is, in part, why many people struggle to read using dark mode on their phones." This is clear in your map, where the white text looks smaller than it actually is - and looks grey rather than white.

"The "Achromatic" use of a white background with black text is an example of a basic and commonly default color scheme in web design." & "black decreases the apparent saturation or brightness of colors paired with it, and white shows off all hues to equal effect."

There's a reason the majority of maps, websites, books and magazines have light rather than dark backgrounds. Also consider anyone printing the article, or viewing it on a poor quality display. I would not support changing the map to this. Turini2 (talk) 10:32, 16 May 2022 (UTC)

I like the black background but I cannot see UP clearly on it. Also what does the skinny part of line 5 represent? It's not "above ground" because it is not made skinny elsewhere above ground. Mattximus (talk) 15:09, 14 May 2022 (UTC)

The skinny part is the street-running segment and the thick part is where it has full grade separation from car and pedestrian traffic. BLAIXX 15:12, 14 May 2022 (UTC)

I thought of the UP looked too dark and lightened it. I can lighten it more. Transportfan70 (talk) 17:44, 14 May 2022 (UTC)

The UP logo needs more lightening. Johnny Au (talk/contributions) 00:07, 15 May 2022 (UTC)

Just reuploadedTransportfan70 (talk) 01:06, 15 May 2022 (UTC)

Good. Johnny Au (talk/contributions) 11:52, 16 May 2022 (UTC)

I'm finding the white text harder to read in a smaller file than the black text in the current public version, but a bigger issue in both maps is the orientation of the text for the west-east routes, which is very inconsistent and busy. On the west side of Line 5, you have the names sloping downward to right both above and below the line; on the east side they slope upward to the right both above and below. On Line 2, which I realize matches the existing map in the article, it's all over the place: on the west end the names slope towards their stop markers both above and below the line, but on the east side the names start at their markers and slope up or down from them. Obviously the layout of the routes themsevles bring challenges but these placements should be done more consistently, and right now you have four different orientations going on for west-east routes (five when count Line 4, whose names get to be horizontal). If you look at the TTC's own version, they found a way to make all the names on Line 2 orient the same direction, with exceptions only those near the intersections with Line 1: Nov 2021 subway map Echoedmyron (talk) 14:33, 16 May 2022 (UTC)

Great catch! Johnny Au (talk/contributions) 00:10, 17 May 2022 (UTC)

Here is a (rough talk page version) of the future system in 2030. The station names are on the same side where practical, though i had to stretch it a lot to fit in the names for Line 6 this way compared to the alternating sides in the article version:

Transportfan70 (talk) 05:19, 18 May 2022 (UTC)

The names still have inconsistent sloping. Johnny Au (talk/contributions) 13:59, 18 May 2022 (UTC)

What do you mean by that? The names have to slope the way they do on opposite sides because of Line 1 and the Ontario Line. I'll shift the Lawrence East name. (talk) 16:55, 18 May 2022 (UTC)

Please see Echoedmyron's comment about sloping text. Johnny Au (talk/contributions) 00:50, 19 May 2022 (UTC)

I obviously read it as I addressed the issue. TBH, I seemed to have opened a can of worms here...Transportfan70 (talk) 04:55, 19 May 2022 (UTC)

If we're going with sloped text, it shoudl all start at the bottom left and go to the top right, ala the forward slash ( / ). That's more natural to read in a left-to-right language and it 100% needs to be consistent throughout the map. —Joeyconnick (talk) 05:16, 19 May 2022 (UTC)

Agreed. Johnny Au (talk/contributions) 00:23, 1 June 2022 (UTC)

I can try that. And BTW, the official TTC map IS black, which brings me back to the original point.

I replaced the article map with one with the stations realigned as /. And with the official TTC version itself being black... Transportfan70 (talk) 16:41, 19 May 2022 (UTC)

Transportfan70 (talk) 13:21, 19 May 2022 (UTC)

Thanks. By the way, I would like to see the final version (for now) of the map. Johnny Au (talk/contributions) 00:31, 6 June 2022 (UTC)

At least there is a version of the map without Line 3 Scarborough, though it has a white background rather than a black background. I do like to see a version with a black background. Johnny Au (talk/contributions) 00:34, 12 October 2023 (UTC)

Regardless, a black background map is not a good idea - given the colour, contrast and readability issues outlined above. The white one is nice! Turini2 (talk) 09:27, 17 October 2023 (UTC)

Thanks. No wonder why the TTC themselves switched to a white background for their ride guides and it's not just to save ink. Johnny Au (talk/contributions) 13:03, 17 October 2023 (UTC)

@SHB2000 Hey, I reverted your post on Line 1 Yonge-University - this is the discussion regarding issues with the black maps - namely colour, construct and readability issues, as well as potential copyright issues of the identical map style used by the TTC.Turini2 (talk) 07:24, 4 October 2024 (UTC)

Thanks. Johnny Au (talk/contributions) 17:12, 4 October 2024 (UTC)

Rogers Communications

@Joeyconnick and Johnny Au: In the code for Toronto subway#Internet and mobile phone access, I found the comment: "Don't mention Rogers Communications purchasing Freedom Mobile's parent company, Shaw Communications, until the tunnels and stations officially have Rogers cellular service." Does this mean we cannot mention that Rogers acquired BAI, that Rogers customers can access BAI services, that all carriers can use the BAI system for 911 calls, that the federal government has decreed full cellphone and data services for the entire subway network by the end of 2026? Thus, must this section remain out of date until 2026? TheTrolleyPole (talk) 23:53, 12 September 2023 (UTC)

It would be good to clarify that section in the article itself, but the comment made still stands for the time being. Johnny Au (talk/contributions) 01:08, 13 September 2023 (UTC)

So what is the reason for prohibiting updates to the section until 2026? Is the prohibition just for corporate changes? Or, may we describe currently available wireless services on the subway system without mentioning who owns what? TheTrolleyPole (talk) 17:55, 13 September 2023 (UTC)

I would like to know what Joeyconnick thinks of this as well, though I would say that we should discuss the currently available wireless services on the subway system without mentioning BAI's ownership first. Johnny Au (talk/contributions) 02:32, 14 September 2023 (UTC)

So the note was first added in this edit in June 2021.

I'll admit I don't know why it's there. The only thing I can think of that we need to be careful about is digressing into a discussion of Rogers' purchase of Shaw... maybe we need to mention the purchase, maybe we don't, but the article is clearly not about the various Rogers and Shaw shenanigans. But it would seem weird not to mention who technically controls the cellular infrastructure in the subway and who, as a result, does have and does not have access to which services as a result.

Maybe Johnny Au can explain what the purpose of the note was? —Joeyconnick (talk) 03:28, 14 September 2023 (UTC)

I added the note because I felt that mentioning Rogers owning BAI was tangential to the article at the time. Perhaps the note can be removed and we can mention Rogers owning BAI then? Johnny Au (talk/contributions) 12:45, 14 September 2023 (UTC)

I think the result is that we may bring the section up to date provided we omit any mention of corporate intrigue among carriers. We will stick to what services are provided, when they began and who provides the services. TheTrolleyPole (talk) 21:28, 14 September 2023 (UTC)

Let's do that then. What do you think, Joeyconnick? Johnny Au (talk/contributions) 00:45, 15 September 2023 (UTC)

Works for me 👍 —Joeyconnick (talk) 02:28, 15 September 2023 (UTC)

Thanks. Johnny Au (talk/contributions) 00:32, 12 October 2023 (UTC)

I have made some clean-ups to the section. Joeyconnick and TheTrolleyPole, what do you think? Johnny Au (talk/contributions) 00:44, 16 September 2023 (UTC)

Just for the future reference: adding {{u|Joeyconnick}} as an edit to a comment actually doesn't ping me. I assume you have to include it in the original edit that adds the comment for pinging to happen.

I made some copyedits. My main remaining question is do Fido and other Rogers flanker brands (are there others?) have access to the current 5G service? If yes, we should probably mention that. —Joeyconnick (talk) 18:40, 17 September 2023 (UTC)

@Joeyconnick: Apologies. By the way, I have updated the Cellular and Wi-Fi connectivity section of the Toronto Transit Commission article. Let me know if it needs copyediting and corrections there. Johnny Au (talk/contributions) 00:11, 18 September 2023 (UTC)

Chatr is their third brand, for the record. Radagast (talk) 20:27, 17 September 2023 (UTC)

Thanks for the clarification. Johnny Au (talk/contributions) 01:49, 1 October 2023 (UTC)

Use of the unconfirmed purple 3 roundel icon

Millsy0303, please see the discussion at Talk:Ontario Line#New Line 3 Logo and Colour, where it's clear there's no consensus as yet about using the purple (3) roundel. It's not controversial (that I know of) that they are planning to call the Ontario Line "Line 3" but the recently added icon is still the subject of debate. I reverted your edits because you added it, not because you referred to the Ontario Line as "Line 3". —Joeyconnick (talk) 18:39, 17 December 2023 (UTC)

I agree with Joeyconnick that it is fair to call this line Line 3 tentatively, but the purple roundel is buried very deep in the technical document as a placeholder and is not agreed upon in various reliable sources, making it inappropriate for use. Johnny Au (talk/contributions) 01:12, 18 December 2023 (UTC)

Forgive me if I'm missing something but since line 4 is purple, won't line 3 be another colour? I swear I saw it as blue in some old technical report. Mattximus (talk) 02:39, 19 December 2023 (UTC)

A purple showed up in an obscure wayfinding planning document and some editors got a little eager with its usage on Wikipedia. Yes, the blue 3 has also been used by the TTC in planning documents. BLAIXX 02:47, 19 December 2023 (UTC)

"Light Metro" Descriptor for the Ontario Line

Is "light metro" really the best descriptor for the Ontario Line? None of the official government sources seem to use this term for it and only ever refer to it as a subway, and the linked article refers to systems that will uniformly have narrower and shorter trains than the Ontario Line (3m x 100m). The capacity will also be in line with the other heavy rail subway lines. Reecemartin558 (talk) 22:48, 2 May 2024 (UTC)

I agree – the Ontario Line is only "light" compared to the existing Toronto subway lines. News sources consistently refer to it as a "subway" project, with the exception of some international sources which call it a "metro" (but never a light metro). BLAIXX 01:29, 3 May 2024 (UTC)

I also agree with both of you. I've never heard this term before or seen it for any official documents. Replaced with subway in the article, as its the most parsimonious definition. Mattximus (talk) 02:28, 3 May 2024 (UTC)

Thanks. I also agree with all of you three. By the way, I like your YouTube channel, Reece Martin. Johnny Au (talk/contributions) 13:57, 3 May 2024 (UTC)