Talk:Star singers

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I want to question question this entry on star boys in England and Scotland as it gives the misleading impression that "star boys" singing is a common practise, whereas it is in fact almost unknown. Much more common are ordinary carol singers. I suggest the entry is amended accordingly.

Blackfacing

It seems some fundamentalist Germans came here from the German wikipedia, trying to portray the German blackfacing tradition as an inclusive event, even using derogatory words with racist connotation like "Mohr" (c.f. [1]) in the article to avoid the use of the word blackface.

A German article [[2]] on the tradition of blackfacing, which is not considered to be racist in Germany, but still an instance of blackfacing.

If you search news reports on the German tradition of the "Sternsinger" you will find countless reports on blackfacing incidents. Last year major global newspapers printed big headlines when Angela Merkel visited blackfaced children for the Star boys singing procession. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 85.179.44.128 (talk) 19:07, 28 November 2013 (UTC)

Dear various IP, its more likely that you seem to be a man on a mission. As you have been told by several users and on multiple discussions in the meantime, this tradtion is recognized neither as rassistic at all nor even as blackfacing. It has been explained to you this custom has iconographical and theological roots. Nota bene: the word de:Mohr (Moor) has been used only in its historical context. If you continue to disagree against at least four or five other users I suggest that you consult a 3rd meaning and stop pushing your very special point of view in this topic.--Turris Davidica (talk) 12:40, 29 November 2013 (UTC)

I've provided countless articles by now that report on the German tradition as seen as such: [3], [4], [5], [6] No one cares that you defend this as being iconographic, it's still white people painting their faces black to reductively use one feature to depict people of color and this act as such is perceived by todays socienty. Using "Mohr" and defending its use as historical is not close from using the n-word because it is historical in some contexts. Sample image: http://www.pi-news.net/wp/uploads/2013/01/merkel-dreik%C3%B6nig.jpg Source: AP / press release. I also don't understand why I am being attacked for using a provider with 24h disconnects. 85.179.45.33 (talk) 15:20, 29 November 2013 (UTC)

Since all of this is getting really annoying and I am talking to the same 4 people reverting all my edits, after I provided requested evidence, I ask for comments on the issue, see next sextion.

This is really getting a bit of annoying now: One of your links reads: "According to The Telegraph, it is customary for one person in a group of carolers to darken his or her face to represent one of Three Wise Men — also called the Magi — who, Christians believe, visited Jesus after his birth bearing gifts: gold, frankincense and myrrh." Some of your links don't deal with the topic of starsingers at all. One of your sources deals a twitter-row on an adult Dutch football star and states nevertheless: "This kind of behaviour would generally be viewed as controversial in the UK whereas in Spain it seems completely normal and simple harmless fun."

If you repeatedly don't care to listen or to read other users' arguments or explanations on the discussed topic that's no way to behave. You have discussed this with a growing number of other users – all of them begged to differ from your POV, and all of them are competent users on this topic. Its also no way to behave to state in a discussion “no one cares” (in fact, you don’t care). And, last but not least, you haven't been "attacked". I just stated that one and the same person acts (and is getting insulting) under various single-purpose accounts which is true.--Turris Davidica (talk) 19:38, 29 November 2013 (UTC)

This is considered blackface as the linked sources cite. [1] No matter the intention, blackface is blackface. [2] — Preceding unsigned comment added by 108.48.178.15 (talk) 23:16, 29 November 2013 (UTC)

As long as you are using the word "blackface" as a neutral word, then of course: yes, they make their face black. Fine. So what.

Which is not a sin. Please show me where in the Bible or the Catechism it is said that thou shalt not blacken thy face.

We've been doing that for decades, if not centuries. Our purpose was, is, and will remain simply to depict the legend that one of them comes from Africa; in the light of this, it would (you know - to German eyes) even be more problematic to whiteface the African king.

It is not mandatory either to change popular traditions because they may perhaps fall across with the sensibilities of some other nation in the world.

Although, there is something in the particular stubbornness of not touching such such sensibilities that indicates to me that you yourself are German, am I correct? (As of course I am, too.)--2001:A60:150A:7001:5969:92DB:4D4B:A4F6 (talk) 14:56, 12 February 2015 (UTC)

Request for comments

I would like to include in the article a description that mentions that in Germany there is a tradition of blackfacing children, which is seen as questionable and offensive outside the country. I do not event want to include a judgement on this tradition nor claim that is meant to be racist, I want to include the public media reception of what is happening. It's very easy to verify this by just googling the relevant terms, such as Germany, Sternsinger, Star boy procession, three wise men., some results:

• image by AP http://www.pi-news.net/wp/uploads/2013/01/merkel-dreik%C3%B6nig.jpg
• some articles, including one by Deutsche Welle, Germany's own state funding international broadcaster: [7], [8], [9], [10], [11]

85.179.45.33 (talk) 15:33, 29 November 2013 (UTC)

This is considered blackface as the linked sources cite. No matter the intention, blackface is blackface. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 108.48.178.15 (talk) 23:13, 29 November 2013 (UTC)

• I think you should add the article description. If there are sources documenting the tradition I say go for it. Comatmebro ^{~Come at me~} 05:36, 3 December 2013 (UTC)
• I can see why you'd propose this. It is blackfacing, but just calling it that doesn't do it justice. As noted in the above discussion on this talk page, the blackfacing is done as a nod to one of the three kings, which is a cultural reference in Germany. I'm not 100% certain it adds a lot to this article, but I'm fine with its inclusion if done right. GRUcrule (talk) 17:33, 3 December 2013 (UTC)
• add the description, but neutral, including sources for the blackfacing Wilfried Elmenreich (talk) 22:40, 30 December 2013 (UTC)

If, as I take you, you express with the words "blackface is blackface" that painting one's face black is sinful no matter the circumstances, then you're wrong at that, and there's an end of it.--2001:A60:150A:7001:5969:92DB:4D4B:A4F6 (talk) 14:58, 12 February 2015 (UTC)

References

Gender specific, misleading title "star BOYS"

Why are these processions, in which both girls and boys participate, referred to as star boys in English? I assume that in old times only boys would participate, but as far as I know in most countries this have been overcome. Are there any gender-neutral language terms available in English? "Epiphany singers" seems to be a good choice. --Vigilius (talk) 08:25, 31 December 2013 (UTC)

The big online dictonaries suggest "carol singers" or "star singers". I personally think that "Star boys' singing procession" is a very bulky term and should be replaced with something else.--Nico T (talk) 13:04, 6 January 2015 (UTC)

Carol singers would perhaps match England, but not other traditions that center on the Epiphany story (and hardly ever sing any Christmas carols. I will try to update to "star singers". -Vigilius (talk) 14:34, 24 November 2015 (UTC)

A Commons file used on this page or its Wikidata item has been nominated for deletion

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• Sternsinger.jpg

Participate in the deletion discussion at the nomination page. —Community Tech bot (talk) 04:31, 5 January 2022 (UTC)