Talk:St. Patrick's Cathedral (Midtown Manhattan)/GA1

GA Review

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Reviewer: Kncny11 (talk · contribs) 19:47, 1 July 2021 (UTC)

Hello! I'll be reviewing this article as part of the July 2021 good article nominations backlog drive! Any section that I've marked with a  Working tag means that I haven't finished leaving comments there, but you're free to begin making changes as soon as you see them! Kncny11 ^(shoot) 19:47, 1 July 2021 (UTC)

Good Article review progress box

Criteria: 1a. prose () 1b. MoS () 2a. ref layout () 2b. cites WP:RS () 2c. no WP:OR () 2d. no WP:CV () 3a. broadness () 3b. focus () 4. neutral () 5. stable () 6a. free or tagged images () 6b. pics relevant () Note: this represents where the article stands relative to the Good Article criteria. Criteria marked are unassessed

Infobox and lede

• Good

History

Early site history

• WL abbot
  • Done.

Planning

• Pipe "Irish" to Irish Catholics
  • Done.
• That being said, I'm confused by the connection between Irish-American Catholics and needing additional dioceses in NYS
  • I've rephrased it. The need for additional dioceses came from the growth of the Catholic population, not the fact that most Catholics were Irish. Epicgenius (talk) 02:33, 3 July 2021 (UTC)
• A chapel "for" the Blessed Virgin sounds not quite right (violent flashbacks to Catholic school and being told we do not worship Mary, we venerate her). "Dedicated to" is more accurate
  • Done. Not being Catholic myself, I knew something like this might come up. Epicgenius (talk) 02:33, 3 July 2021 (UTC)
• "The plans" → "Plans for the cathedral"
  • Done.

Construction

• "though the precise location of the cornerstone remains unclear"
  • Removed.

Opening and late 19th century

• WL Baltimore Sun
  • Done.

20th century

• "intending to consecrate it in 1908, after all debts were paid off" → "with the intention of consecrating it after all the debts were paid off in 1908"
  • Done.
• Comma after "12 female saints"
  • Done.
• The New York City Landmarks Preservation Commission (LPC) considered designating St. Patrick's Cathedral as a New York City landmark in early 1966.[170] Later that year, the LPC designated the cathedral as a New York City Landmark. Currently repetitive, but I'm not sure the best way to reduce said repetition
  • I've rephrased it a bit. Epicgenius (talk) 02:33, 3 July 2021 (UTC)

21st century

• "Retoration" and "renovation" are used interchangeably here. In my mind, those aren't exact synonyms, but you are probably more of an expert than I
  • This particular renovation was mostly a restoration. but I reworded anyway. Epicgenius (talk) 02:33, 3 July 2021 (UTC)
• Maybe include something from this article about how COVID restrictions impacted the church?
  • Done. This is actually a duplicate of the NYT article already on the page. Epicgenius (talk) 02:33, 3 July 2021 (UTC)

Main structure

• Pipe English Gothic architecture and French Gothic architecture accordingly
  • Done.
• "described by CNN in 2020 as being"
  • Done.
• "as well as a parish church" → "and as a parish church" (technically you'd need another as there, and "as well as as a" sounds wrong)
  • Done.
• WL gneiss
  • Done.

Location and dimensions

• "Heat and cool air is pumped" → "Heat and cool air are pumped"
  • Done.

Western facade

• "patron of the church" → "patron of the Church" (lowercase church is a building, uppercase is a denomination)
  • Done.
• WL archangel
  • Done.

Nave

• Four of the first five sentences of this section all begin with "The nave"; should be broken up/reworded
  • Done.
• Double period at the end of the section for Tiffany & Co.
  • Done.

Transepts

• WL Immaculate Conception
  • Done.
• Four Evangelists should be capitalized and linked
  • Done.
• Sacred Heart and Holy Family should also be linked
  • Done.

Sanctuary

• "was three steps above" → "were three steps above"
  • Done.
• Pipe Italian Gothic architecture
  • Done.

Crypt

• Is there a date for when the stone slab was removed?
  • I haven't found an exact date, but more recent coverage doesn't mention the slab at all. Epicgenius (talk) 23:37, 3 July 2021 (UTC)

Cathedral close

• More dates throughout the Lady chapel section would be nice -- when the rear wall of the apse was removed, when it became part of Our Lady of Lourdes, etc.
  • I added some dates. Epicgenius (talk) 23:37, 3 July 2021 (UTC)
• "The original altar, dedicated to the Virgin Mary,"
  • Done.
• "vicar-general" is lowercase and hyphenated here, but title case and not hyphenated above
  • Fixed.
• "it covers a lot measuring 54 by 47 ft"
  • Done.
• The part about the Fitzgeralds' wedding segues awkwardly into the main topic of that paragraph; it would almost be better off on its own as a third, one-line paragraph
  • Done - perhaps I can find a few more notable weddings to round this out. Epicgenius (talk) 23:37, 3 July 2021 (UTC)

Staff

• This would be better served in prose form, I believe (i.e. "Cardinal Timothy M. Dolan has served as the Archbishop of New York since 2009, and as a cardinal since 2012. Other priests at the cathedral include Rev. Donald Haggerty, etc."). Also, King, Haggerty, Golino, and Dougherty should be prefaced with the honorific Rev.
  • Done. Epicgenius (talk) 23:37, 3 July 2021 (UTC)

Bells

• Link to the appropriate saints in the table
  • Done.

Organs

• I think that a list of every organist and music director, including assistant organists, borders on trivia. Maybe just include prose on the notable ones and what they contributed?
  • @Kncny11: I just trimmed this to just the main organists. I'll probably write up some prose tomorrow. Epicgenius (talk) 23:16, 4 July 2021 (UTC)
    • I've converted this to prose now. Epicgenius (talk) 00:17, 8 July 2021 (UTC)

Funeral Masses

• In its current state, this reads as trivia. Is there more background that can be given as to the history/importance of funerals at the cathedral? (I know what I'm asking is vague)
  • I will look into adding a little context to this. Epicgenius (talk) 23:37, 3 July 2021 (UTC)
    • Strangely, I couldn't find too much context about this in my research. A similar thing occurred when I was considering whether to add marriages, notable speeches, etc. to the article - it was just a bunch of one-off incidents. Therefore I've hidden this section for now. Epicgenius (talk) 00:17, 8 July 2021 (UTC)

Crimes and terrorism

• "the northwest corner of St. Patrick's Cathedral" → "the northwest corner of the cathedral"
  • Done.
• "but there was only one victim" → "One casualty was reported" (with new sentence there)
  • I did this, but instead of "casualty" (which may be confused for a death), I added "injury". Epicgenius (talk) 23:37, 3 July 2021 (UTC)
• "anti-police graffiti" → "the acronym A.C.A.B., or "All Cops Are Bastards""
  • Done.
    • On further thought, Ergo Sum brought up a good point that the refs don't specifically mention ACAB. Epicgenius (talk) 22:54, 4 July 2021 (UTC)

References

• In [7], chicagotribune.com should be replaced with Chicago Tribune
  • Done.
• There's an awkward space in the author name of [9] (Pitts, Carolyn)
  • Done.

General comments

• Stability and neutrality both look good
• All of the pictures check out, as expected
• While no pictures are "irrelevant", the placement of the facade detail image seems out of place within the article itself
• Earwig copyvio score sits at 36.7%, a little higher than I've seen from you, but it looks like it's all proper nouns
  • Yeah. A few of these instances were unfortunately very hard to avoid without making them read awkwardly. Epicgenius (talk) 23:37, 3 July 2021 (UTC)

This is a strong way not just towards GA, but FA! One of the reasons I picked this review is because I am Catholic, and being part of the Church of Rules means knowing all of the hyper-specific terminology and capitalization. Plus, I actually got to go to Mass at St. Patrick's a few years ago! Was visiting a friend in Manhattan and had to pop in real quick for an Assumption Mass. Kncny11 ^(shoot) 20:59, 3 July 2021 (UTC)

@Kncny11: Thanks for the detailed review, especially the pointers about the terminology. I'm glad you seemed to enjoy the article. I've responded or addressed most of the issues and will address the rest over the next few days. Epicgenius (talk) 23:37, 3 July 2021 (UTC)

Kncny11, sorry, it is taking a little longer than I expected to clean up the organists and funeral masses sections. These were mostly from the preexisting article before I expanded it. Epicgenius (talk) 18:31, 5 July 2021 (UTC)

@Kncny11: I've resolved all of the outstanding issues now. Thanks again for your review. I really enjoyed it, particularly the errors you pointed out from your own knowledge as a Catholic. Epicgenius (talk) 00:17, 8 July 2021 (UTC)

Epicgenius Thank you for taking the time to make those revisions, particularly some of the prose conversions! Looks great, and I'll be passing! — GhostRiver 21:46, 8 July 2021 (UTC)