Talk:Slavic paganism

Correction

"He also mentions the belief in various demons and nymphs (ie vilas), but does not mention any other names." Correct me if I'm wrong but I've read books where Procopius is said to mention "dragons" and later in the text labels them as "demons". 99.236.221.124 (talk) 07:05, 31 January 2010 (UTC)

Excessive external links

There are twenty-nine external links at the end of this article. That's too many. I'm sure that a lot of then are redundant, not very informative or dead. Given the subject matter of this article, I can understand some links being in Russian, Polish or other Slavic langauges but ideally there should only be links to sites in other languages if they contain material unavailable in English. --Simon Peter Hughes (talk) 15:43, 12 May 2011 (UTC)

I have reduced the number of external links to ten, all in English. A few links were dead, one was a list of gods and goddesses of sexuality without much reference to Slavic mythology and some apparently contained malware. --Simon Peter Hughes (talk) 04:54, 4 June 2011 (UTC)

"Disputed, not proven"

I am reading Wikipedian "truth" for quite some time about Slavic pre christian so called "paganism", and find only words as "disputed, controversial, hoax,etc,". On other hand we paradoxically still have many Slavic traditions which clearly predate any Christian tradition...

It seems that Wikipedian "historians" desperately want to paint Slavic past as disputable and as it "never existed".

Ignorant Ethnocentric relativism

quote: " Deities such as Hors and Simargl are sometimes interpreted as the East Slavic borrowings from their Iranian neighbours."

Hors derives from Slavic root "hrs" or "krs", like "USKRS" ("Enliven, risen") and also "Krstnut" (enliven); Horovod, Krst, Hrst, Hrast (Oak tree)... Horovod was a cycle of god Hors or Horo. In Egypt was the same deity known as Heru or Hor (="Horus"). "It rises in the east and sets in the west" - but it is not the "sun".

Remove the mockery "Pagan"

Term "Pagan" means primitive, rural in Latin and it was used as a mockery later in Middle ages against nations which still did not accept Abrahamic religions. My grand grand mother was still a priestess of the Old slavic faith and she never called herself a "pagan". Old Slavs weren't even polytheists. They were Henotheists. They have said "God Swiatovid was traveling and traveling in the Universe and everywhere he looked the star appeared. He become tired and slept(read bellow & compare with Vedic Shivaism). A sweat / drop of sweat fell down his FORHEAD to the planet Earth") Forhead which is called Čelo (Chelo) in Slavic) to planet Earth (which was among Slavs described as: "little Sand in the great Sea where everything remains still if you put it there" - Slavs never believed the Earth is flat; but a "stone in the Universe") and from God's drops came the "1. human" (this is Čelo+Vek or Človek or Čelovek; means "Forhead era". The term Vek or Vijek is Sanskrit Yuga (transmutation: (V)Yuka / Vyuga; Yuga.)

Regards to the Slavic priesthood. They were called Volhvs, which derives from god Volos (Veles is rather a dialect version). Volhv or Volkhv was a priest and Volkhva or Vešča was a priestess. Volhv was a wise man, A Mag(e); they are still called "3 holy kings(Volhvi), who visited baby Jesus" in Russian, Ukrainian Bible". Volhv was also a Vedun (Veda; "knowledge") or Viedzun or Vedan or Vešč (a Moth - insect) and woman was Vešča or later "WITCH" among Saxons (because she knows(and hears) things...)

Please do not mix with neopaganism

Please do not mix solid archaeological and historical facts with neopaganist extrapolations. Staszek Lem (talk) 20:33, 29 August 2017 (UTC)

As for these parts, I am sorry but the sources used are not related to neopaganism. Namely, 1) the part used as source from Ivakhiv 2005 is a chapter in which he discusses historical Slavic religion and folk religion, which comes before the chapter treating neopaganism (which is the culminating topic of his essay but which is not treated, and not used as source, in this article); 2) Dynda 2014 is an academic essay of comparative religion, so his interpretations fully fit the scientific cut of this article; 3) Ivanits' and Rybakov's calendar is not the neopagan one, but it is the calendar from folk religion. The insertion of the link to the neopagan calendar by user PulauKakatua19 was an undue addition.--Eckhardt Etheling (talk) 10:04, 30 August 2017 (UTC)

OK. Staszek Lem (talk) 23:16, 30 August 2017 (UTC)

It is impossible to tell what the basis for many of the interpretations in the article is, since all information on sources is removed. Srnec (talk) 23:22, 19 September 2017 (UTC)

Which 'interpretations' are you having problems with. The information on the sources is still in the history of the article if there is anything you consider to have belonged in the content but was 'removed'. The sources used for the reliably sourced content are self-explanatory (i.e., it's all referenced), therefore I'm having problems understanding what the issue is. --Iryna Harpy (talk) 04:02, 20 September 2017 (UTC)

The primary sources. Only the Primary Chronicle is mentioned in connection with pre-Christian belief and practice. There are a couple vague reference to archaeology and "ethnographic evidence" (whatever that is), but no specifics. The article is also heavily biased to East Slavic practice: not a single reference to the paganism of the West Slavs rather amply recorded in 11th- and 12th-century sources. Srnec (talk) 22:57, 20 September 2017 (UTC)

Why no mention of human sacrifice?

The Brittanica article on this topic says it happened: [1]

Readers are likely to visit this article, curious, after hearing and learning about Igor Stravinsky's famous composition The Rite of Spring, which is about pre-Christian Russia and culminates in a terrifying depiction of a human sacrifice. Odd not to take this issue on, even if just to debunk. Opus33 (talk) 20:34, 3 October 2017 (UTC)

Belaj

I'm copying the following material from Lada (goddess) – the information seems off-topic there, and this page seems like the most appropriate place for it. I have no idea whether it's accurate or relevant to any page, so I'll leave it here for interested editors to deal with.

Extended content

Croatian ethnologist Vitomir Belaj studied a great number of songs of summer festivities from various Slavic nations. While not all of them contain exclamations to Lado, all of them do include a central character named Ivan or Ivo, meaning John, which is loosely associated with St. John the Baptist, whose feast day occurs in summer. However, the Ivan of these songs has almost no resemblance to the Christian saint: he is described as a young and handsome man, courting with young girls, and in one particular song he even explicitly refuses to baptise a young child presented before him, explaining he cannot do so because he himself is not a Christian. Belaj concluded that in these songs the name of Ivan stands in place of the name of an older Slavic god who was venerated at summer festival which later, after the arrival of Christianity, became the festival of St. John the Baptist. Belaj identified this lost god as Jarilo, a major Slavic deity of vegetation, harvest and fertility.

—Sangdeboeuf (talk) 09:53, 5 November 2017 (UTC)

Why is this all about Rus'?

This entire article focuses almost entirely on Rus'/Russia and incorporates some very questionable assumptions about Pagan influence on various Christian practices. What, for instances, do the Bogomils or the popularity of Christian apocryphal texts have to do with paganism? And how do we square the fact that much information about Slavic deities is actually from the West Slavs? This article is in serious need of a rewrite.2601:85:C202:150:A9DB:C559:F5B:5A9 (talk) 15:29, 10 February 2018 (UTC)

Yes. It was re-written because the old article was a hodgepodge with poor sourcing. Unfortunately, while the sourcing is now good, the article as a whole is unbalanced and unhelpful. Srnec (talk) 19:31, 10 February 2018 (UTC)

Anonymous user, please note that the article has a "historical cut". The section about Christianisation is fundamental, because, as the sources clearly say, early Christianity, ancient pre-Christian religion, and sects deemed heretical by the Christian church, were all mingled together among the Slavs, and the pagan-heretical milieu later contributed to the rise of the various sects of "Old Beliefs". This has undoubtedly to do with East Slavs. If someone has WP:RS treating the development of paganism and Christianity among the Catholicised West Slavs, a chapter dedicated to this topic could be added.--Eckhardt Etheling (talk) 00:02, 31 March 2018 (UTC)

Historical Slavic Religion, What Gives?

Why is this article called "historical Slavic religion" instead of the widely used and more accurate Slavic paganism? There are plenty of religions that fall within the branch "historical Slavic religion", including forms of Christianity and Islam practiced among the Slavic peoples in the past. I see no reason for this article to have this title. :bloodofox: (talk) 18:31, 30 March 2018 (UTC)

It was moved on 10 August 2017 from its original title, Slavic mythology. It was completely rewritten by the mover, User:Eckhardt Etheling. (As to his rewrite, see my comments above.) I agree that "Slavic paganism" would probably be a better title. Srnec (talk) 21:23, 30 March 2018 (UTC)

Hmm, I see. Well, what do you say we move it to Slavic paganism? :bloodofox: (talk) 21:25, 30 March 2018 (UTC)

Good idea. Staszek Lem (talk) 21:30, 30 March 2018 (UTC)

Looks like we have three of us who agree to the move, but it appears that we need an admin to move it. :bloodofox: (talk) 21:35, 30 March 2018 (UTC)

The article gives bad impression that somehow all Slavs had the same paganism. I find it extremely hard to believe, given that there was no central, organized "pagan papacy". Staszek Lem (talk) 21:33, 30 March 2018 (UTC)

I am against the move to "Slavic paganism", given that "paganism" is in itself a controversial term (and poganstvo is not even used in Slavic languages, in which they prefer yazychestvo, which approximately means "ethnic religion"). I think "historical Slavic religion" to be fine, and I chose it in place of "Slavic religion" since the article is about ancient Slavic religion and not about Slavic Christianity or neopaganism. I harmonised the title with those of articles about other ancient "paganisms", such as "Old Norse religion" and "Germanic religion (aboriginal)". If it has to be moved, I suggest "Slavic religion". Among the corresponding articles in Slavic languages: Bulgarian, Czech, Polish and Slovak have "Slavic religion"; Serbian has "Old Slavic religion"; Croatian has "Old Belief" (Starovjerje); Russian has Slavyanskoye yazychestvo; only Bosnian has Slovensko paganstvo.

Regarding the content, I am aware that it focuses on ancient ancient East Slavic religion. It is because I did not find sources treating ancient West Slavic religion. If someone has WP:RS about the topic, a chapter dedicated to the history of ancient West Slavic religion could be added.--Eckhardt Etheling (talk) 23:37, 30 March 2018 (UTC)

Old Norse religion and Germanic religion (aboriginal) should both be moved, the first to North Germanic paganism and the second to Germanic paganism. The latter is a stub and the former needs a total rewrite from scratch. These are not good examples from which to base anything. Slavic paganism is not only the most commonly used term for this subject in the English language, but it's also the most accurate. There's nothing controversial about using this designation in English scholarship. :bloodofox: (talk) 16:24, 2 April 2018 (UTC)

Take into account that West Slavs don't know word yazychestvo. In Poland we using term "Slavic paganism", "Slavic religion" or "Slavic mythology". --Wojsław Brożyna (talk) 18:41, 31 March 2018 (UTC)

I don't think that the rewrite was well handled, despite being done in good faith, Eckhardt Etheling. Sourcing is available, and I agree with other editors that it should be returned to the former WP:TITLE, "Slavic paganism". The various forms of paganism are easily accommodated by having dedicated sections for specific regions, as well as overlaps in deities, practices, and fundamentals within the belief systems. --Iryna Harpy (talk) 05:10, 1 April 2018 (UTC)

Well, since Polish itself uses the title Religia Słowian, what do you think if we move to a plain "Slavic religion"? Otherwise, I will not oppose a move to "Slavic paganism" if it is considered the best solution. Regarding West Slavic religion, I have added a source for future expansion.--Eckhardt Etheling (talk) 18:37, 1 April 2018 (UTC)

Moving this page to Slavic religion would introduce the same issues. As I point out above, this would encompass forms of Christianity and Islam as well. :bloodofox: (talk) 16:28, 2 April 2018 (UTC)

@Eckhardt Etheling: Bloodfox has expressed the premise of WP:TITLE succinctly. As Wojsław Brożyna has illustrated, the Polish translation is also 'Slavic paganism'. This article is not about all forms of religion practised in Slavic countries over the centuries, but religious beliefs prior the introduction the monotheistic (world) religions dominating Slavic regions in more contemporary times until the current day. Note that the Ukrainian rendition - "Язичництво" (Iazychnytstvo) - has been cross-linked with the generic Paganism article precisely because the word translates as "поганство" (pohanstvo)/'paganism'. This is not about the general English language WP:COMMONNAME used for 'paganism', but is specifically about Slavic paganism... as should also be the case for "Old Norse paganism" and "Germanic paganism". --Iryna Harpy (talk) 04:18, 3 April 2018 (UTC)

Iryna Harpy, Bloodofox. I have just opened a move request. However, I have to say that I am not fully convinced by the title "Slavic paganism". I do not think that "Slavic religion" also implies Christianity and Islam, since these are universal religions and therefore they are non-ethnic, non-Slavic. As I pointed out, most Slavic Wikipedias title the corresponding article "Slavic religion" in the respective language. Furthermore, even the entry of the Encyclopaedia Britannica dedicated to Slavic paganism is titled "Slavic religion".--Eckhardt Etheling (talk) 07:34, 3 April 2018 (UTC)

Comment For any title change we should refer to reliable sources, not sentiment and personal opinion.--Farang Rak Tham (Talk) 21:35, 3 April 2018 (UTC)

Besides the aforementioned Encyclopaedia Britannica, both are used among scholars. Google Scholar gives 394 results for "Slavic paganism" and 285 for "Slavic religion". In the first case among the results there is Rybakov's Ancient Slavic paganism (1981), while in the second case there is Gimbutas' Slavic religion (1987).--Eckhardt Etheling (talk) 22:50, 3 April 2018 (UTC)

Paganism is seen by some as a pejorative term, but there is no academic consensus on that. This might be a discussion better held on Talk:Paganism or such. I'll note that we have a number of articles/categories in need of clean-up. Consider:

• Old Norse religion but Category:Norse paganism - one of those needs to be renamed to match the other
• Category:Etruscan religion is within the broad Category:Paganism in Europe, but has no main article

My quick review of the above category (for Europe) did not find other inconsistencies. It seems paganism is used on Wikipedia for non-Christian, 'old', European religions. Norse religion and Etruscan category may need to be renamed, the former one may generate some controversy / discussion (but I'd suggest for users interested in this issue to discuss it at Talk:Old Norse religion; I may start such a discussion shortly). --_{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here} 05:27, 5 April 2018 (UTC)

Point well made, Piotrus. The issue of 'paganism' is routinely brought up by users as being a pejorative term on various articles, but it is certainly something to be discussed on a centralised article with a high level of traffic, not on an article by article basis. I've added "Old Norse religion" to my watchlist, and look forward to the initiation of such a discussion. For the sake of consistency throughout the subject area, I believe that the article be changed to match the category. Any potential changes to the nomenclature used by Wikipedia should emanate from discussion at the "Paganism" talk page. --Iryna Harpy (talk) 01:15, 12 April 2018 (UTC)

• • @Iryna Harpy: I've started a thread on Wikipedia_talk:WikiProject_Religion#When_to_use_Fooian_paganism_vs_Fooian_religion and based on comments there, I think all Fooian paganism articles and categories (about historical religions, not modern paganism) should be renamed to religions. I will think about how to handle this (RMs/RFC) shortly. --_{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here} 04:28, 12 April 2018 (UTC)
    • @Piotrus: Cheers. Yes, I've never been comfortable with anything other than monotheistic, and large contemporary religions being branded as being some generic, trivialising concept of "paganism". A well formed RfC is an excellent idea. I'll chime in when I've had some time to mull over how to structure an RfC. No doubt you'll do an excellent job without my input, but I'll try to evaluate as many problematic angles I might see arising. --Iryna Harpy (talk) 04:41, 12 April 2018 (UTC)

Requested move 3 April 2018

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the move request was: Move. There is already a consensus above. Whether this was once a featured article is neither here nor there. – Joe (talk) 08:56, 3 April 2018 (UTC)

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Historical Slavic religion → Slavic paganism – Title preferred by users: https://en.wiki.x.io/wiki/Talk:Historical_Slavic_religion Eckhardt Etheling (talk) 07:28, 3 April 2018 (UTC)

•  Note: Moved from WP:RM/TR. As a former featured article, please let's discuss the most appropriate title for this to prevent move and counter move. –Ammarpad (talk) 08:04, 3 April 2018 (UTC)
  • Ammarpad, please note that this article has never been a featured article. It was just a candidate for featured article in 2006, but it never passed.--Eckhardt Etheling (talk) 08:20, 3 April 2018 (UTC)
• Above I pointed out that Encyclopaedia Britannica uses "Slavic religion", however I support a move to "Slavic paganism", given that a considerable number of other users have already expressed their preference for this title.--Eckhardt Etheling (talk) 08:09, 3 April 2018 (UTC)

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The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page or in a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

Template:Slavic Native Faith

The user @Srnec: pretended to remove the template of Slavic Native Faith. I think that it should be leaved there. It's similar situation to that when historical Vedic religion have template:Hinduism. These topics are strongly corelated and from modern point of view the question of historical Slavic religion or just Slavic paganism is quite important in context of Slavic Native Faith, so it should be treat as subtopic. --Wojsław Brożyna (talk) 08:09, 4 April 2018 (UTC)

Yes, but the Slavic Native Faith is not terribly important in the context of Slavic paganism. Putting at the top of the page is giving it undue weight. Srnec (talk) 00:21, 5 April 2018 (UTC)

It should not be included at all. A hat-link to Rodnovery/Slavic Neopaganism at that section suffices.--Zoupan 01:10, 5 April 2018 (UTC)

"Mythology of Slovenia" listed at Redirects for discussion

An editor has asked for a discussion to address the redirect Mythology of Slovenia. Please participate in the redirect discussion if you wish to do so.  — Mr. Guye (talk) (contribs)  06:08, 12 November 2019 (UTC)

Proposed deletion of Category:Slavic countries and territories

It is currently being proposed that Category:Slavic countries and territories be deleted. This article is related to that category. The relevant discussion is located at Wikipedia:Categories for discussion/Log/2020 January 8#Countries and territories by language family. The deletion discussion would benefit from input from editors with a knowledge of and interest in Slavic paganism. Krakkos (talk) 11:59, 13 January 2020 (UTC)

IP edit

In regard to this - I think the sentence means to refer to Polabians, Obotrites and Pomeranian Slavs, not Poles. The info is legit but just presented in a misleading way. Volunteer Marek 23:33, 18 December 2020 (UTC)

Come to think of it the timing doesn't match. They came under the influence earlier etc. Volunteer Marek 23:35, 18 December 2020 (UTC)

Yes, this paragraph makes no sense. I don't have that source, but quick look at preview I assume, that the author meant Polabian Slavs, not Poles or Czechs. But even Polabian Slavs kept their culture/language after christianity. Sławobóg (talk) 10:16, 19 December 2020 (UTC)

Sources

Add the "sources" section (a reminder for myrself). Noraskulk (talk) 12:32, 20 July 2021 (UTC).

 Done. Noraskulk (talk) 15:51, 17 September 2021 (UTC).

"Folklore of Poland" listed at Redirects for discussion

An editor has identified a potential problem with the redirect Folklore of Poland and has thus listed it for discussion. This discussion will occur at Wikipedia:Redirects for discussion/Log/2022 February 10#Folklore of Poland until a consensus is reached, and readers of this page are welcome to contribute to the discussion. _signed, Rosguill ^talk 15:21, 10 February 2022 (UTC)

"Historical Russian religion" listed at Redirects for discussion

The redirect Historical Russian religion has been listed at redirects for discussion to determine whether its use and function meets the redirect guidelines. Readers of this page are welcome to comment on this redirect at Wikipedia:Redirects for discussion/Log/2023 March 6 § Historical Russian religion until a consensus is reached. An anonymous username, not my real name 03:31, 6 March 2023 (UTC)

Innacuracy in the "Overview and common features" part

In the 4th paragraph,the claim is made that the religion survived in Slovenia around the river Soča.After downloading the source I failed to find anything related to this claim. 89.146.131.14 (talk) 19:45, 9 July 2023 (UTC)

"Belarusian mythology" listed at Redirects for discussion

The redirect Belarusian mythology has been listed at redirects for discussion to determine whether its use and function meets the redirect guidelines. Readers of this page are welcome to comment on this redirect at Wikipedia:Redirects for discussion/Log/2023 August 6 § Belarusian mythology until a consensus is reached. Jay 💬 05:32, 6 August 2023 (UTC)