Talk:Rebel Heart (instrumental)

Hyperlink between Album In Blue and Corrs Song "Rebel Heart"

The hyperlink between the Corrs album In Blue was originally incorrect and pointing to the album made by the American country singer Dan Seals. I fixed the hyperlink myself. After this, I hope that the Google referencing will now fix itself. This message is a note in case this mistake happens again from subsequent editing.

In passing, the quality of the article on the Corrs is rated as high but its emphasis is mainly on the Corrs as a mainstream popular music band. It should not be forgotten that e.g. Sharon Corr is a classically trained violinist who can even teach the violin. All the family members of the Corrs are highly trained musicians for that matter. "Rebel Heart" is a beautiful piece of instrumental music which I believe will prove to be a timeless classic.

ok, I added a quote by Sharon Corr from the Corrs official website. I hope more can be added later. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 99.37.225.79 (talk) 04:49, 22 November 2009 (UTC)

Move discussion in progress

There is a move discussion in progress on Talk:Rebel Heart (album) which affects this page. Please participate on that page and not in this talk page section. Thank you. —RMCD bot 19:15, 20 December 2014 (UTC)

Requested move 30 January 2015

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the move request was: not moved. Number 57 16:06, 13 February 2015 (UTC)

---

Rebel Heart (The Corrs song) → Rebel Heart (instrumental) – Or "Rebel Heart (The Corrs instrumental)" if it is too conflicting with other "Rebel Heart" songs. The difference between instrumental and song is big; the first is a musical composition featuring pure music while the second features music and vocals, thus this is not a "song", as I already explained at Talk:Rebel Heart (Dan Seals album). If "Instrumentals are often called songs", that's vox populi and not a valid or encyclopedic reason. Further, this RM is not only supported by multiple "song" to "instrumental/composition" successful RMs, but also by WP:SONGDAB itself: "When a track is not strictly a song (in other words a composition without lyrics...), disambiguation should be done using "(composition)" ... or "(instrumental)" (edits mine). If such statement is incorrect due to vox populi, such statement must be removed first from WP:SONGDAB itself. © Tbhotch^™ (en-2.5). 00:45, 30 January 2015 (UTC)

• Oppose removal of artist name, where another song exists Rebel Heart (The Corrs instrumental) should be used. In ictu oculi (talk) 07:39, 30 January 2015 (UTC)
• Oppose both removal of artist name and move to instrumental; and also struggling to see how this discussion reached any sort of genuine consensus that we should differentiate between "song", "instrumental" and "composition". A "song" is a "musical composition", regardless of whether it contains lyrics. And as far as I can see,
  "(composition)" is primarily used for songs dating back to the 1940's (and earlier) for which no definitive artist version exists, such as "Confirmation (composition)". Homeostasis07 (talk) 00:08, 2 February 2015 (UTC)

• I think you simply decided to put "oppose" without reading what I posted. If I said "If such statement is incorrect due to vox populi, such statement must be removed first from WP:SONGDAB itself." The reason I post it was because there's always someone who decides to ignore my guideline-based rationales. I only say this once, and only once, you are "opposing" a WP:SONGDAB statement. If you believe such statement is incorrect, take it to WT:NCM to remove such statement, otherwise, it still existing and it is totally correct to apply it, and you only delay this RM on the ground of personal views. Also this is not a consensus. © Tbhotch^™ (en-2.5). 05:03, 4 February 2015 (UTC)

I wrote oppose because I oppose the move, simple as. Per WP:SONGDAB: "When necessary, disambiguation should be done using "(band)", "(album)", or "(song)"... Use further disambiguation only when needed". The disambiguation - as it stands - is perfectly accurate and I fail to see how further disambiguation would ever be needed with its current title. What you're proposing here could actually cause further issues in the long term. per SONGDAB: "disambiguation should be done using "(composition)" - assuming there is no composition with lyrics - or "(instrumental)"" - but pretty soon someone will create "Rebel Heart (Madonna song)" (I see it's already a redirect). Renaming to simply "Rebel Heart (instrumental)" would mislead people in to thinking The Corrs song is a somehow-notable instrumental version of Madonna's song, which is the absolute opposite intention of disambiguation in the first place. Homeostasis07 (talk) 23:32, 4 February 2015 (UTC)

The more I try to get your comment, the less reasonable it becomes. First you say that we should use "(band)", "(album)", or "(song)". TLC (group) is not a "(band)"; we have hundreds of "(EP)"s and the same; Drake (rapper) exists while SONGDAB doesn't mention we should use words like "rapper". Your rationale also sounds like those of Status or Ashlee at Talk:Paradise_(Lana_Del_Rey_EP)#Requested_move. ("per WP:NCM, which does not state "EP" can be used for disambiguation.") Almost a year later it was moved and the rationale was exactly the same, what changed, that neither Status or Ashlee were there to delay the process again. Also SONGDAB says: "Disambiguate albums and songs by artist and not by year unless the artist has released multiple albums (or songs) with the same name." We have Butterfly (1957 song), Laura (1945 song), and Charade (1963 song), all disambiguated as such not because "the artist has released multiple songs with the same name", but because the writters or original singers have not enough recognizability. In all these cases I can easily prove that just because you say "Per WP:SONGDAB: "When necessary, disambiguation should be done using "(band)", "(album)", or "(song)"... Use further disambiguation only when needed"." doesn't mean you are applying this statement in the correct way.

Second, you say that "song" is perfectly "accurate". Let's check what does "Accuracy" means: "The state of being accurate; freedom from mistakes, this exemption arising from carefulness; exactness; nicety; correctness." According to you this "song" is a "song" solely because it is a "song", despite the fact it was nominated to the Grammy Award for Best Pop Instrumental Performance and not Grammy Award for Best Pop Performance by a Duo or Group with Vocals or Grammy Award for Best Pop Duo/Group Performance or any other pop Grammy. If the disambiguation is "accurate", as you say, it shouldn't be "song", as this "song" lacks of lyrics and therefore, it is not a song, because songs have lyrics. On the other hand, "instrumental"s lacks of lyrics, therefore "instrumental" is "accurate".

And finaly, you also say that ""Rebel Heart (instrumental)" would mislead people in to thinking The Corrs song is a somehow-notable instrumental version of Madonna's song," I don't see how per multiple reasons. 1) Although "instrumental" can be misleading, unless you already know what an instrumental is, you can't confuse it with a song. 2) Rebel Heart (Madonna song) redirects to Rebel Heart (Madonna album), and when released it will have its own article (likely). This article says it is about "an instrumental by the Irish folk group The Corrs, taken from their third album In Blue (2000)" I don't get how someone can confuse an Irish non-lyrical celtic piece released in 2000 by a band with a 2015 electropop song featuring Madonna vocals. But if your argument will be that it still pausable, what makes you think a title like "Rebel Heart (The Corrs song)" isn't "a somehow-notable version of" Kane Roberts', Madonna's, Rod Stewart's or Roots Manuva's songs. If people aren't confused with this, or redirects like American Pie (Madonna single), Fever (Beyoncé Knowles song) or Cry Me a River (Ella Fitzgerald song), there is no single evidence someone can think an article titled "Rebel Heart (The Corrs instrumental)" belongs to Madonna.

Once again, if your rationale is that SONGDAB is wrong, change SONGDAB first. © Tbhotch^™ (en-2.5). 04:02, 6 February 2015 (UTC)

^ Well that wasn't condescending. No. Not in the slightest. You have my vote. So in the interest of moving this along: bye. Homeostasis07 (talk) 20:22, 6 February 2015 (UTC)

Well, this is WP:NOTDEMOCRACY. "Voting" against is not a reason to not moving a page. You must make valid your point. If you can't defend it, justify it, make it sound valid or reasonable, you shouldn't be surprised it can be easily refused, because all I answered is based upon what you said. © Tbhotch^™ (en-2.5). 05:15, 7 February 2015 (UTC)

• Oppose. No good reason in terms of reader experience or current policy, it's rather a philosophically based proposal which would have several significant impacts on current policy if adopted and taken as a precedent. Andrewa (talk) 19:28, 12 February 2015 (UTC)

---

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page or in a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

Requested move 1 November 2016

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the move request was: move to Rebel Heart (instrumental). As Cúchullain said, WP:COMPOSITIONDAB specifically recommends this title for musical compositions without words. Furthermore, having just "(instrumental)" in the title is enough to disambiguate per WP:CONCISE. (non-admin closure) JudgeRM (talk to me) 04:15, 24 November 2016 (UTC)

---

Rebel Heart (The Corrs song) → Rebel Heart (The Corrs instrumental) – (or Rebel Heart (instrumental) per RFC consensus). Same as before. This is not a song, it doesn't have lyrics; you can sing this "song" as much as you can sing Symphony No. 5 (Mozart). "Rebel Heart" received a Grammy-nomination for Best Pop Instrumental Performance (given to instrumental-only records), AMG calls it an instrumental, it is sold as an instrumental, and the fact that there is nowhere in Wikipedia that forbids to classify songs as songs and non-lyrical records as compositions/instrumentals futher supports the usage of "instrumental" and less the, in this case misleading, "song". © Tbhotch^™ (en-2.5). 05:00, 1 November 2016 (UTC) --Relisting. — Andy W. (talk) 01:52, 10 November 2016 (UTC)

• Oppose - particularly oppose removing artist name - per arguments in previous lengthy discussion above. Particulary @Andrewa: comment In ictu oculi (talk) 07:22, 1 November 2016 (UTC)

  Andrewa's comment is invalid. This is not a "precedent", we have used "(instrumental)" and "(composition)" for years. Also "No good reason in terms of ... current policy" is invalid too: WP:COMPOSITIONDAB now exist. Try again. © Tbhotch^™ (en-2.5). 08:54, 1 November 2016 (UTC)

• Support move to Rebel Heart (instrumental) per WP:CONCISE and WP:SONGDAB: "instrumental" is sufficiently concise to disambiguate this article. Ivanvector (^Talk/_Edits) 16:51, 19 November 2016 (UTC)
• Support. WP:COMPOSITIONDAB does specifically recommend this for musical compositions without words.--Cúchullain ^t/c 16:56, 21 November 2016 (UTC)

---

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page or in a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.