Talk:Old Azeri

Refs

I wonder if there are english articles that speak of such thing?? Any way for something to apear on wikipedia there shoud be western scholari articles. isn't it? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 188.158.200.135 (talk) 22:30, 18 January 2011 (UTC)

What is this actually about...

This article, whilst very well put together, is not an explanation of what the 'Old Azari' language is/was, but rather a thinly veiled argument from linguistic and historical evidence that Iranian Azeribajan is 'originally' Iranian, and that the Turkic influences exemplified by it's contemporary language are a more recent development.

This is a long-running theme in Iranian nationalist historiography, which I believe started with Kasravi. Iranian nationalists are rather prominent on wikipedia and this seems to be one of their creations.

That's not to say that it's a bad article. It is an excellent summary of the arguments, important in Iranian historiography, for considering Azerbaijan to be 'inherently Iranian'.

I would suggest changing the title to reflect the article's nature, calling it something like 'Integrative Nationalist Histriography'. Actually, that's a little inaccessible, but you get the picture!

Vernon Francis Gallagher (talk) 11:47, 16 June 2009 (UTC)

There are already major Western orientalists like Vladimir Minorsky, Richard Frye, Gilbert Lazard, Ludwig Paul that have mentioned the Iranian language by name and they are not "Iranian nationalists". There is an Iranica entry which explains some of the dialects feature fairly extensively. New stuff like Safinaye-Tabrizi also has come alone with verses in Fahlavi from the region. There is no Kasravi here in this article nor is there any nationalistic statements, just bunch of facts about an old region and its language in early Islamic times. Before Kasravi, Marquart already had mentioned that Fahlavi was the language of the area. In Wikipedia we follow rules WP:RS and etc. and Frye, Lazard (a linguist), Ludwig Paul (linguist), Minorsky (major orientalists) are well known. Among modern linguists one can mention Don Stillo. --Nepaheshgar (talk) 16:42, 16 June 2009 (UTC)

Azari and Azeri?

Why the article spells Azari and Azeri? Should we agree on one spelling for the sake of consistency or that will be problematic? Kiumars 05:31, 14 February 2007 (UTC)

sounds diffrent..

ummm, so what happened to that language? all of those people changed their language from persian to turkish at that time without any educational system? at the time that not every body had access to paper? or any media? and the language changed in the north also?

• • I think since Persian Empire was holding a large area under control, it doesn't mean that everybody was persian, AT LEAST the the first language of all those other people who used to live in today's non Persian areas, also what happened to sumerians? they didn't disappear from the earth did they? or all those civilization before the persian immigration to southern Iran?

• • Or maybe this was just the following plan of the former "Pahlavi regime"'s Reza khan the king:

He makes the country united by making one nation and one single language...Pure persians...sounds fascistic! Going back deep in the history... and his son, and the next regime followed the plan and still going on.

• • I heared that azeris are not allowed to study turkish in Iran for about 90 years... but they still speak turkish in their parts... they don't have any medias or books, since they are not allowed to. everything is in persian for 90 years, full media, all educational systems since the first grade,schools, evreything, they still speak turkish.

in more than 90 years they didn't lose their language with all that modern educational system and media and internet, you don't expect me to belive they converted to turksih from persian in the past without any books and stuff, that today not even one persian lives in the azerbaijan from that glourious empire, -the short period killer empire-.

• • There are a lot of turks living in every part of iran than persians in turkish parts, in southern iran, doesn that mean persians were tukic people who became persians later? this is even more possible than the article's text...

• • Roman empire: Latin language, but look, how many new languages came out!they did keep themselves as the first language of those lands people....Or Balkan...G-Britain...USSR!...others in the history

• • what's goin on in southern azerbaijan?
  • This is completely common in history of the world that a reginoal language vary through the time, as you can see that welish language someday was spoken by about half of the European people , but today you can find welish speaker just in Britain island. on the other hand it could be interesting for non-iranians that azaries and persians are throughly mixed during these centuries like suger in the a glass of water. Every Azari in iran knows himself Irani.

(Anooshahpour 23:09, 31 October 2007 (UTC))

hey Anooshahpour (which is persian name),why you make this artice political. if any part of it has lie about history say this part is wrong ;) any way whatever reza shah did it was 10 time less that the stupid thing pan-turkist did. atta-turk change name of 2 city from kurdish and armenian to turkish. first peresiden of azerbaijan said (around 1991) turk are living here from baku to kermanshah for 100,000 yeras !!!!! —Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.199.2.238 (talk) 19:39, 25 March 2008 (UTC)

Out of date

Hey, -----> old fashion lieing. Nothing more is being expected from "the Islamic Republic of Iran" or "Persian chauvinism".

what is a lie about it? and this isnt the islamic republic of iran and we have many iranian azari's here ;)Khosrow II 22:42, 12 August 2006 (UTC)

who said these opinions are from islamic republic of iran ghajars lost azarbaijan and they are selling all of iran in fact our government is your best friend dear!!!! —Preceding unsigned comment added by 85.198.23.115 (talk) 14:07, 26 January 2010 (UTC)

Old Azari language

I moved the page to Old Azari language because ancient refers to the time prior to the middle ages, Azari was still used well into the 17th century at the least.Hajji Piruz 13:13, 5 July 2007 (UTC)

Is Azari article an original research?

I could not find any reliable source on Azari. In the article, the references were named as of Iranica, but they redirects to http://www.azargoshnasp.net/ directory which does not seem to be a reliable source. On the other hand, the Ethnologue does not have any entry for Azari. You can check from the Ethnologue reports 1 and 2. For this reason, i'm in favor of adding an OR-tag until it's verified. Even the Google search does not find anything. Regards. E104421 02:11, 14 November 2007 (UTC)

That is not OR. Ethnologue does not have an entry because it is dead. Ethnologue is not a reliable academic site but it is maintained by Christian missionaries who trasnlate the bible. As per the Old Azari language. It is in Encyclopedia Iranica: [1]. It is also mentioned by Minorsky (in his V. Minorsky, Studies in Caucasian history, Cambridge University Press, 1957). It is also mentioned by Iqrar Aliyev, a very well known and prominent historian from the republic of Azerbaijan. Finally it is mentioned in primary sources.

Here is the actual passage from al-Masudi in Arabic.

مسعودي در التنبيه و الاشراف مي‌نويسد:

فالفرس أمة حد بلادها الجبال من الماهات وغيرها وآذربيجان إلى ما يلي بلاد أرمينية وأران والبيلقان إلى دربند وهو الباب والأبواب والري وطبرستن والمسقط والشابران وجرجان وابرشهر، وهي نيسابور، وهراة ومرو وغير ذلك من بلاد خراسان وسجستان وكرمان وفارس والأهواز، وما اتصل بذلك من أرض الأعاجم في هذا الوقت وكل هذه البلاد كانت مملكة واحدة ملكها ملك واحد ولسانها واحد، إلا أنهم كانوا يتباينون في شيء يسير من اللغات وذلك أن اللغة إنما تكون واحدة بأن تكون حروفها التي تكتب واحدة وتأليف حروفها تأليف واحد، وإن اختلفت بعد ذلك في سائر الأشياء الأخر كالفهلوية والدرية والآذرية وغيرها من لغات الفرس

In Persian:

پارسيان قومي بودند كه قلم‌روشان ديار جبال بود از ماهات و غيره و آذربايجان تا مجاور ارمنيه و اران و بيلقان تا دربند كه باب و ابواب است و ري و طبرستان و مسقط و شابران و گرگان و ابرشهر كه نيشابور است و هرات و مرو و ديگر ولايت‌هاي خراسان و سيستان و كرمان و فارس و اهواز با ديگر سرزمين عجمان كه در وقت حاضر به اين ولايت‌ها پيوسته است، همه‌ي اين ولايت‌ها يك مملكت بود، پادشاه‌اش يكي بود و زبان‌اش يكي بود، فقط در بعضي كلمات تفاوت داشتند، زيرا وقتي حروفي كه زبان را بدان مي‌نويسند يكي باشد، زبان يكي است وگر چه در چيزهاي ديگر تفاوت داشته باشد، چون پهلوي و دري و آذري و ديگر زبان‌هاي پارسي

In English:

The Persians are a people whose borders are the Mahat Mountains and Azarbaijan up to Armenian and Aran, and Bayleqan and Darband, and Ray and Tabaristan and Masqat and Shabaran and Jorjan and Abarshahr, and that is Nishabur, and Herat and Marv and other places in land of Khorasan, and Sejistan and Kerman and Fars and Ahvaz and other Persian lands that has now been connected to these lands. All these lands were once one kingdom with one sovereign and one language although the language differed slightly. The language, however, is one, in that its letters are written the same way and used the same way in composition. There are, then, different languages such as Pahlavi, Dari, Azari, as well as other Persian languages. (based on Al Mas'udi, Kitab al-Tanbih wa-l-Ishraf, De Goeje, M.J. (ed.), Leiden, Brill, 1894, pp. 77-8 with the above Arabic and Persian translations).

Masudi lived in the 10th century. Another classical source is Yaqut who also mentions the language Azarriyah. I will update this article soon, but I think for now you can see it is not OR (Iqrar Aliyev is practically the most well known historian of the republic of Azerbaijan) and Vladimir Minorsky does not need an introduction. --alidoostzadeh 02:27, 14 November 2007 (UTC)

I agree the section pre-Turkic Azari needs a remake (it seems there is some unscientific statements in there). I'll look at that later. --alidoostzadeh 03:05, 14 November 2007 (UTC)

Fact tag

Please, provide precise data as to which villages in Iranian Azerbaijan use this language, which allegedly was called "Azari" prior to Azeri Turkic. Atabek (talk) 23:46, 16 April 2008 (UTC)

That is a good point. The term "Azari" is used by some linguists including western ones to also denote the Iranian Azari. Both terms (that is denoting a Turkic or Iranic language) is a recent phenomenon and it is not necessarily 100% connected to the old Iranic Azari mentioned by Minorsky, Lazard, Frye, Ighrar aliyev and others although some linguists believe it is. So I will fix that with references. I would assume that approximately 100,000 people speak a form of Southern Tati in Eastern Azerbaijan and approximately twice of that speak a form of Tat in Qazvin. The largest population is in Khalkhal with at least 12 villages: Askestan, Asbu, Derow, Kolur, Shaal, Dizh, Karin, Lerd, Kehel, Taharom, Geluzan, Gilavan, and GandomAbad). So I do not have the village counts, but it is spoken in some remote areas. Virtually all Tati speakers are Shafi'ite Sunnis (one reason they have preserved their dialect) and Shafi'ite Sunnism was the main faith of Azerbaijan before the rise of the Safavids. I think maybe 50 years ago there used to be some Tati speakers who were Shi'i, but now they probably speak Azerbaijani Turkish. So it is virtually only the Sunni population that speaks it in Azerbaijan and Ardabil and Zanjan. My own opinion is that "Azari" was a general name given to a group of Iranian dialects much like "Kurdish" which is in reality a group of dialects and not one uniform one. The old language of Azerbaijan has been called "Persian"(not necessarily Khorasani Persian), "Fahlavi" and "Azari", all three really denoting the same group of NW Iranian dialects. --alidoostzadeh (talk) 00:48, 17 April 2008 (UTC)

only some villages between Khalkhal and Gilan are Sunni. Most of villages are Shia. Those around Tabriz and around Qazvin are Shia.--Babakexorramdin (talk) 01:32, 10 January 2009 (UTC)

Dubious

Don't know who added this reference earlier, but 4-5 references made to Yarshater article are incorrect. First, Yarshater never authored article with such name in Iranica, secondly the Iranica article talkes mostly about Azeri Turkic, never refers to "Azari" language. Atabek (talk) 01:22, 17 April 2008 (UTC) He does, he uses the term: "Āḏarī (Ar. al-āḏarīya) was the Iranian language of Azerbaijan before the spread of the Turkish language, commonly called Azeri, in the region. " See here: http://www.iranica.com/newsite/index.isc?Article=http://www.iranica.com/newsite/articles/unicode/v3f2/v3f2a088.html

But you could be write about the name of the article..It might just be called "The Iranian language of Azerbaijan" but in the work, he uses the term Āḏarī many times. --alidoostzadeh (talk) 01:31, 17 April 2008 (UTC)

Here I found it: [2] ("Azari, the Old Iranian Language of Azerbaijan," Encyclopaedia Iranica, op. cit., Vol. III/2, 1987.)

Qashqai are not a "Kurdish" tribe

Please change the part where it says, Qashqai were a Kurdish tribe and spoke Kurdish until being Turkified its nothing but a total fabrication. --86.139.49.107 (talk) 11:23, 21 April 2008 (UTC)

Insult (?)

The following must be checked.
...their speech is not attractive.
Actually I think that should be even removed from the article. How it was defined not to be attractive? This is just opinion of one individual and shouldn't be placed in the encyclopedia. --Gulmammad (talk) 03:28, 25 May 2008 (UTC)

.

Make it clear when the Azari language became extinct

Different parts of this article state completely different dates for when this language became extinct. It seized to be the dominant language of Azerbaijan by the 14th century, then a few paragraphs later it says it seized to be the dominant language of Azerbaijan by the 17th century when the Safavids came to power. Please be clear. This is all very confusing! —Preceding unsigned comment added by 87.194.5.148 (talk) 21:46, 12 January 2010 (UTC)

Correct name of the language

I have read the discussion here, and I will be thankful, if you as people, who know the subject, give me the explanations and help with the sources. I noticed that the article in English is named "Azari", but in Russian it is named "Azeri", and the discussion here proves that it is recognized by linguistics as other language. Please explain, what is correct. Thank you in advance, --Zara-arush (talk) 23:32, 5 May 2010 (UTC)

Probably before the adoptation of turkish the language was called fahlavi, or at best Azari. The name "Azeri" is a turkish pronunciation of "آذَری" in which " َ " is replaced by " ِ " because of the harmonic pronunciation of words in the turkish languages.18:39, 18 January 2011 (UTC) —Preceding unsigned comment added by 94.183.118.58 (talk)

Old??

Where is New Azari language? Esc2003 (talk) 14:31, 2 May 2012 (UTC)

Azeri or Azerbaijani language. Old Azeri is an Iranian language and Azeri is a Turkic language. --Elmju (talk) 08:29, 10 April 2013 (UTC)

In "Pre-Turkification Azeri" section ....

Where is the page of Ruhi Onarjani ???

Also it would be great if there is any description about his Old Azeri compendium !

Or At Least Any work composed in Old Azeri !!!

Thanks very Much !!! — Preceding unsigned comment added by 46.186.198.47 (talk) 09:44, 20 August 2020 (UTC)

"Pre-Turkification Azeri" section

Hi, where i can find sources of this section. Should it be removed? Thanks for answer:)