Talk:Cyclone Ianos

MSW/landfall intensity estimated to be 65kt according to NOAA

According to the recently published NOAA's Weekly Weather and Crop Bulletin (WWCB), Vol. 107, #38 (September 22, 2000), p. 28

"A rare Mediterranean hurricane (also known as a “Medicane”) formed off the coast of Egypt mid-week and drifted northeastward toward Greece. The storm — named Medicane Ionas — approached western Greece on September 17 before making landfall on the 18th with maximum sustained winds estimated at 65 knots. The storm stalled over the country’s western islands, unleashing torrential rains, damaging winds, and flash flooding; the peak official reported rainfall was 142 mm, but amounts were likely much higher on the windward-facing slopes of the country’s rugged mountainous terrain. Greece’s cotton crop was at maturity with harvest set to begin soon, and the storm likely resulted in significant impacts and crop losses where rain was heaviest, most notably in Thessalia."

I'm sure the article editors are aware that currently, there is not an officially designated RSMC to issue forecasts and warnings for tropical(-like) or subtropical cyclones in the Mediterranean Sea. However, basd on WP:RS I think this is grounds for increasing both the peak and landfall intensities for Ianos here and in the Mediterranean tropical-like cyclone Wiki. Without getting too deeply into the reasoning, as a NOAA/NWS meteorologist for nearly 3 decades, I agree with NOAA's higher intensity estimate based upon unpublished analyses from both myself and others, taking into account surface observations, scatterometer data, satellite imagery, video and damage reports. However, I wanted to run this by the primary editors first, before making these changes. Thanks for considering. AJC3fromS2K (talk) 07:15, 24 September 2020 (UTC)

@AJC3fromS2K: Thank you for the new information. Updating information now. Much appreciated. ~ Destroyeraa🌀 15:36, 24 September 2020 (UTC)

References

Requested move 24 September 2020

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

---

• Cyclone Ianos → Medicane Ianos
• Mediterranean tropical-like cyclone → Medicane

– Google Trends shows that most regions are using Medicane Ianos instead of Cyclone, Storm, or Tropical Cyclone. This article should be renamed to reflect that. Also, looks like World Meteorological Organization has been using the Medicane term as well. Given the nod from the WMO and overall popularity of the term, I would also now like to request the main page be moved. Noah^Talk 18:37, 24 September 2020 (UTC)

• Support first move, lean oppose second move. since WMO also used Medicane. I think "Cyclone" or "Storm" used to be more popular, and are still more popular for French or British storms, such as Storm Dennis. Cyclone was used more often in the past, for example for Cyclone Numa and Cyclone Qendresa. "Mediterranean tropical-like cyclone" sounds the most formal. ~ Destroyeraa🌀 18:28, 24 September 2020 (UTC)
• Neutral on the first move, Leaning towards Support for the second move – For the first proposed move, either title is fine with me. Our titles should be balanced between the most accurate representation and the common name, but other than that, I personally do not prefer one title over the other. BTW, I had no idea that the WMO had picked up the term "Medicane". How the times are changing. Concerning the second proposed page move, as long as there is evidence from reliable sources that "Medicane" is now an official term rather than an informal one (as it has been in the past), then I'm all for it. "Medicane" is a concise and accurate description, not to mention that it currently has widespread use. If the term has become official, then I would agree that it's time for a page move. LightandDark2000 🌀 (talk) 18:44, 24 September 2020 (UTC)

• It hasn't been dubbed official in the sense that it has a meteorological definition, but governments (at least Greece that I have seen) and the WMO are using it. It is extremely popular in searches when compared to any other variant. I would say the need to be concise and follow WP:COMMONNAME, along with the fact that the WMO is now using it is a good enough reason for a move. Noah^Talk 18:50, 24 September 2020 (UTC)

• Comment @Destroyeraa and LightandDark2000: I changed the move discussion to include the main article too per recommendation. Please take that into consideration and please state whether or not you are in favor of the second move. Noah^Talk 18:37, 24 September 2020 (UTC)

@Hurricane Noah: Maybe this discussion should be on Talk:Mediterranean tropical-like cyclone, given that the proposed renaming schemes would have a larger significance on the main "Medicane" article, not to mention that they are both closely related. LightandDark2000 🌀 (talk) 18:54, 24 September 2020 (UTC)

I don't think that it matters where the discussion is located as there will be a link on all articles to the discussion when the result is determined. The entire discussion template would have to be overhauled if we do move it. Noah^Talk 18:58, 24 September 2020 (UTC)

I think the main arguments previously have been that the term Medicane lacks a distinct geographical area identifier (to some) and that Medi, could be confused for this being somehow a medium sized hurricane or something structurally distinct.Lacunae (talk) 19:49, 24 September 2020 (UTC)

• Support – Yes, medicane is a neologism. But the subject of medicanes is still novel and has not been well studied in sources. However, a search of "Medicane Zorbas", "Storm Zorbas", and "Cyclone Zorbas" on Google Books and Google Scholar indicates that the term medicane is the COMMONNAME for such a storm. Therefore, this translates into the title for new instances of such storms such as Medicane Ianos. Google Ngrams (and I have tried several variations of the phrase with medicane continuously winning) confirms this conclusion. --- C&C (Coffeeandcrumbs) 00:21, 25 September 2020 (UTC)

  I support both moves. --- C&C (Coffeeandcrumbs) 00:35, 26 September 2020 (UTC)

• Support both proposed moves. Support moving "Mediterranean tropical-like cyclone" to "Medicane" per its usage by the World Meteorological Organization and support moving Cyclone Ianos per COMMONNAME. Medicanes may be rare, but when they do occur, usage of this term is anything but.  Vanilla  Wizard 💙 00:46, 25 September 2020 (UTC)
• Support I'm going to start by saying the term medicane may not have been as widely used the last time this discussion was held, however now it is the most common term to refer to a (sub)tropical cyclones in the Mediterranean. Both the WMO and Hellenic met service classify these systems medicanes, and given that the term Medicane Ianos is the most common searched phrase should be enough to support the change. Supportstorm (talk) 01:25, 25 September 2020 (UTC)
• Oppose "Medicane" isn't a meteorological termm. --LaserLegs (talk) 01:31, 25 September 2020 (UTC)

• So we should just ignore the World Meteorological Organization, Greece, COMMONNAME policy, and what everyone outside academia uses? Noah^Talk 01:36, 25 September 2020 (UTC)
• I second what Hurricane Noah said here; your rationale for opposing wasn't exactly accurate. It's hard to say that medicane is not a meteorological term when the international agency responsible for coming up with meteorological naming conventions is terming it a medicane.  Vanilla  Wizard 💙 02:08, 25 September 2020 (UTC)
• Neither was cyclone until it became one. Words are created all the time and become commonly used. Fighting against the creation of new terms is futile. --- C&C (Coffeeandcrumbs) 02:26, 25 September 2020 (UTC)

• Support – Medicane is by far the most common term. "Mediterranean tropical-like cyclone" is known to virtually nobody outside academia. If anything, it is surely one of the most uncommon names. Master of Time (talk) 02:50, 25 September 2020 (UTC)

But it is the most scientifically accurate description. No one says Taxacarum when they talk about a dandelion.Lacunae (talk) 08:47, 25 September 2020 (UTC)

Dandelion could refer either to Taraxacum or more specifically to Taraxacum officinale. Had it not been for that fact, the common name would likely override the scientific name, as is the case with Rose.  Vanilla  Wizard 💙 18:25, 25 September 2020 (UTC)

I support changing Cyclone to Medicane, @Vanilla Wizard:, but oppose changing Mediterranean tropical-like cyclone to "medicane." When I nominated this for ITN, people were like "What the heck is a medicane!?" Only when it says "Mediterranean tropical-like cyclone" will people know what the subject is about. Also, just because the WMO uses "medicane" for Ianos doesn't mean we should use "medicane" for every single storm thereon. Currently, most of the storms in the past were either "Cyclone" or "Tropical storm", or simply "storm". A bit premature to change the whole season name to "medicane". ~ Destroyeraa🌀 19:28, 25 September 2020 (UTC)

• Support both per WP:COMMONNAME, Noah, and other supporters. 🐔 Chicdat ^{Bawk to me!} 12:08, 25 September 2020 (UTC)
• Support. Medicane seems to be the most accepted term per the tropical cyclone basins article. Source. KyuuA4 (Talk:キュウ) 15:17, 25 September 2020 (UTC)
• Comment from now on, please put your opinion on both moves. For example, say "Support first move, oppose second move or Support both moves or vice versa. Thanks. ~ Destroyeraa🌀 16:13, 25 September 2020 (UTC)

Let us also be clear over the use by the WMO who stated it was a "so-called Medicane (MEDIterranean hurriCANE)", this doesn't sound like an official sanction to me.https://public.wmo.int/en/media/news/medicane-hits-greece Lacunae (talk) 16:43, 25 September 2020 (UTC)

We should likewise be clear that the url reads "medicane hits greece", the title reads "Medicane hits Greece", and the entirety of the article refers to it as a medicane rather than preferring to use terms such as storm or cyclone. I'm not sure how they didn't sufficiently sanction use of the term medicane here.  Vanilla  Wizard 💙 18:25, 25 September 2020 (UTC)

• Oppose Change to Medicane.

• Wikipedia tropical cyclone pages have explicit geographical areas in their names, for instance Atlantic hurricane, Pacific hurricane, South Pacific tropical cyclone, etc... the prefix in medicane is not geographically explicit.
• Medi- also has the possibility of being confused for a prefix of medium or middle in size or intensity, or even give rise to notions of them being an entirely different class of meteorological phenomena.
• Medicane does not adequately convey that not all of the cases are universally considered as true hurricanes/tropical cyclones.

And so we come to the widely used academic classification "Mediterranean tropical-like cyclone", which I think covers all of the above. And like for instance the page Explosive cyclogenesis which may also have a whole slew of more common names, is a more neutral compromise.

• Use in the media following one highly publicised event, is seldom a good reason to move a page in itself.Lacunae (talk) 18:29, 25 September 2020 (UTC)

• Nobody anywhere calls moderate hurricanes "medicanes." That is such a reach. Master of Time (talk) 23:11, 25 September 2020 (UTC)

• Support first, oppose second per Destroyeraa- Medicane Ianos seems to be used more, but I believe Mediterannean tropical like cyclone would be a better name. Hurricanehuron33 (talk) 19:08, 25 September 2020 (UTC)
• Support first, oppose second A redirect and piped-link are more than adequate for anyone searching 4such, and the current title being technically precise/unambiguous. --:GSMC(Chief Mike) Kouklis U.S.NAVY Ret. ⛮🇺🇸 / 🇵🇭🌴^⍨talk 01:23, 26 September 2020 (UTC)
• Support both. It is the proper and common term for cyclones of this sort, much like derechos are for windy, strong storms in the U.S..Dan the Animator 01:27, 26 September 2020 (UTC)
• Support first proposal, oppose second one I am pretty sure most people only apply Medicane to the storms that look like hurricanes, so like Ianos. It wouldn't make sense to call the entire article medicane as many storms don't reach a strong enough strength for people to call them medicanes. May I suggest we call the entire article on those storms Mediterranean Tropical Cyclones? It is a neutral name that is similar to what it was originally, but it covers the entire span of systems from the weak lows to the more stronger storms like Ianos or like Numa, plus it is for that geographical area. many would prefer this name, as it gives attention to the wide spectrum of storms instead of just the strongest ones. Storms that form in that area are sparse and few in-between, so it wouldn't really make that much sense to call the article itself Medicane. Many people have never heard of the name Medicane, so it would not be appropriate to call the article that, as most likely it would confuse readers when they see a title just called medicane. Naming the article Mediterranean Tropical cyclones give the reader a clearer understanding of what the article is about and it also shows that the article is about tropical cyclones that take place in the Mediterranean sea. One more Thing of Note, many of the cyclones that form in the Mediterranean never reach medicane strength, they usually only strengthen to what would be considered tropical storms in other areas. Weatherman27 (talk) 17:26, 26 September 2020 (UTC)
• Support first, oppose second per Weatherman27. Not every cyclone that develops in the Mediterranean will become strong enough to meet the definition of a "Medicane," which as the article makes clear is roughly equivalent to a hurricane. This article covers all stages of cyclone development in the Mediterranean, and it would be inaccurate to lump all of the storms it discusses together under the term that's used only for the most powerful cyclones. We wouldn't call a "tropical depression" a hurricane, and we shouldn't call the Mediterranean-equivalent of a tropical depression a "Medicane" either. –Prototime (talk · contribs) 18:36, 26 September 2020 (UTC)
• Support first move, oppose second renaming. Shame on top-marks academics to have not seen that all storms/cyclone research on mediterreanean such things will go to Med. tropical-like cyclone which rightly then says it embraces medicanes. Simply stress medicanes are the bigger subset. They clearly relate to hurricanes in word-meaning/cognicity. And Mediterreanean hurricane redirects here correctly. I thought we were obsessed with minutiae enough to understand WP is not for own articles for every subset of connotation and denotation. Logic, logic, logic.- Adam37 Talk 19:38, 26 September 2020 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

A Commons file used on this page or its Wikidata item has been nominated for speedy deletion

The following Wikimedia Commons file used on this page or its Wikidata item has been nominated for speedy deletion:

• Ianos landfall radar Greece.png

You can see the reason for deletion at the file description page linked above. —Community Tech bot (talk) 17:53, 27 September 2020 (UTC)

A Commons file used on this page or its Wikidata item has been nominated for speedy deletion

The following Wikimedia Commons file used on this page or its Wikidata item has been nominated for speedy deletion:

• Prime Minister Kyriakos Mitsotakis visits Karditsa which has affected by Medicane Ianos.jpg

You can see the reason for deletion at the file description page linked above. —Community Tech bot (talk) 13:23, 28 September 2020 (UTC)

Ianos Dissipation

Are there any articles that document Ianos' dissipation? Hurricanehuron33 (talk) 12:15, 30 September 2020 (UTC)

@Hurricanehuron33: People in Greece stopped monitoring it on September 21. ~ Destroyeraa🌀 17:22, 1 October 2020 (UTC)

Track

Seeing as there is no RSMC for the Mediterranean, nor does the JTWC monitor it, there is no official track file. I would like to make a suggestion that the track files should be done using ICON initialisation like was done for some tracks on the European windstorm season. AveryTheComrade (talk) 15:27, 30 September 2020 (UTC)

Unfortunately it would be considered OR to create track and intensities from model data yourself. I have position data extracted from georeferenced UKMet surface analyses available which would not violate OR, but it lacks wind or classification data. I've held off uploading it since Gary Padgett often post track data for exotic systems like Ianos and it should be available in a few months. Supportstorm (talk) 16:20, 30 September 2020 (UTC)

On the name 'Cassilda'

This system was not given the name 'Cassilda' by "the Italians", it was named by a group of amateur meterologists that I run, the MCC. - Skynorth/Cosmo^{my talk page} 13:40, 10 October 2020 (UTC)

100 mph?

Why was Ianos upgraded to 100 mph in the article? Where's the source? SolarisPenguin (talk) 11:56, 11 August 2021 (UTC)

The increase in MSW wasn't sourced, and therefore the change has been reverted. Thanks for the heads up! AJC3fromS2K (talk) 20:46, 12 August 2021 (UTC)

As a late follow-up, I believe I've found the unofficial "source" for the 85kt/100mph MSW change that was made to the article: https://twitter.com/Stavros_Dafis/status/1311772708896727043 According a subthread from this tweet, there may have been a sustained wind of 44 m/s (85kt/98mph) from a 10m anemometer at an automated weather station with a height of 80m ASL. I have inquired as to whether that data has been released, or possibly verified by the Hellenic NMS (http://emy.gr/emy/en/index_html?), since the website which cited this figure (meteo.gr) is not an official government met agency. It will be interesting to see if wind measurement is officially verified as a legitimate reading. AJC3fromS2K (talk) 17:56, 15 September 2021 (UTC)